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Old 08-16-2008, 08:03 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Clothing Manufacturers Pulling a Fast One?

While cleaning out things to have a yard sale, I came across a pair of pants and a pair of shorts left over from my "fat" days. The pants were a size 14, the shorts, 12.
I decided to keep these as I have gained about 20 lbs and, while the 8's and 10's fit, they are rather snug and I thought it'd be nice not to have to suck in the gut while putting something on. I was wrong. The 12's wouldn't button and the 14's wouldn't zip up. Ok, I can wear size 8 from last year before the gain and not the 14's from when I was even heavier??? What gives? So, Google to the rescue.
0 is the new 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boston Globe
Inside the dressing room at Ann Taylor, Wendy Chao found herself at a loss.

''I tried on a size 0 skirt and it was too big," said Chao, a 30-year-old graduate student of molecular biology at Harvard University. ''To me, a size 0 is antimatter; it's something devoid of any physical reality."

Chao was already mystified by how she'd shrunk from a size 8 in high school to a size 2 today, despite gaining 15 pounds in the interim. But now at size 0, she realized something curious was afoot.

''As far as I can see, size means nothing," she said. ''I am different sizes at different stores, but they're all remarkably smaller than what I wore as a scrawny teenager. In my closet, I have everything from a size 0 to a size 12." She added that a size 8 skirt she bought from Ann Taylor in 2000 is ''identical in cut" to the size 0 she bought at the store late last year.

The incongruity in Chao's closet is far from a fluke: While Americans have statistically gotten larger, women's clothing has gotten smaller -- that is, if the numbers on the size labels are to be believed. It's no secret that retailers have been playing to women's vanity for years by downsizing the sizes on garment labels, but the practice has reached an extreme in recent months with the introduction of the sizes ''double zero" and ''extra, extra small." If vanity sizing continues on this path, analysts say, it is only a matter of time before clothing sizes are available in negative integers.

In many ways we're already there, said Bridgette Raes, an image and style consultant in New York who notes that the sizes double zero and extra, extra small available at stores like Banana Republic and Old Navy are essentially negative sizes. Instead of putting a -2 size on the label, manufacturers use 00, which is the same thing.

J. Jill introduced its ''extra, extra small" size last year in response to its petite customers' demands for smaller sizes, said Lauren Cooke, a public relations manager for the company.

''We've always had size 'extra small,' but our clothing tends to be cut more generously because we cater to women over 35," she said, noting that an extra small at J. Jill is the equivalent of a size 2 or 4 at other stores. Their extra, extra small is equivalent to a size 0.

The downward evolution of sizes illustrates the extent to which retailers, apparel manufacturers, and designers are conforming to American women's obsession with wanting to be thin -- even if it's only in their minds, said Natalie Weathers, an assistant professor of fashion industry management at Philadelphia University.

In addition, the small sizes help retailers attract the junior-sized buyers -- typically girls in their teens -- to adult stores.

Vanity sizing has been a common practice in expensive women's clothing for decades, but Weathers said the practice has crept into the mass market because a wider spectrum of women -- teenagers through baby boomers -- are more preoccupied with size than ever before.

''We live in a world now where 14-year-olds shop at Victoria's Secret," said Weathers. ''On the other side, we're always hearing how 50 is the new 30."

And the gap between what's reality for most women and fantasy also seems to be bigger. While more than 60 percent of American women are overweight, women on television and on the big screen are getting skinnier and skinnier. In fact, after producers of ''Desperate Housewives" learned their star Eva Longoria is a size 00, they wrote a reference to her clothing size into an episode.

While images of Hollywood certainly feed the frenzy, there are other factors at work, said April Ainsworth, owner of VintageVixen.com, an online vintage clothing retailer. With some exceptions, manufacturers are simply making women's clothing larger and labeling them with smaller sizes. As a result, what was a size 8 in the 1950s had become a 4 by the 1970s and 00 today. The size labels just keep getting smaller, so it's no surprise they're diving below zero now, Ainsworth said.

If this trend continues, some petite women may find their own shopping options limited as the smaller sizes available at some of their favorite stores actually become too large for them.

Just ask Kelly O'Rourke, 27, of Roslindale. She loved shopping at such stores as Ann Taylor, the Gap, and J. Crew because their petite lines were cut to her silhouette. However, she said she recently found that sizes 0 and 2 are too big for her at some of these retailers.

''It's frustrating to me as a petite woman when I try on a size 2 suit and it's swimming on me because it really has the measurements of a size 6," she said.

The picture is further complicated by the fact that sizing varies among brands and stores, making it difficult for many women to know exactly what size they are. The problem has only become more acute since January 1983 when the US Department of Commerce dropped a uniform sizing system for women on the grounds that it no longer reflected the size and shape of the average consumer.

''Sizing has always shifted to match consumers' changing behaviors," said Kathleen Fassanella, a pattern maker and author who writes an apparel manufacturing blog called Fashion Incubator.

''For instance, when women stopped wearing corsets, manufacturers had to completely redesign their patterns due to the great dissatisfaction of women who were no longer wearing the undergarments."

But because women have gotten larger, Fassanella said, their clothing is cut larger today -- though many of the labels won't tell you that.
My mother and father got married in 1950. Her wedding dress label read size 10, but even as a skinny size 5 teenager, I couldn't get my arms in the sleeves. It's ben said that Marilyn Monroe today would be a size 14 or larger, but back then she was a 6.
Is this really being fair to women? No. It's a mind game. Women who tip the scales at the larger end of their weight chart can brag about being a size 6.
Like the women mentioned in the article, I have bought clothes that I thought were my size, only to go home and find them too large for me. Not just ill fitting, but HUGE. When did a size 8 become huge?
At 18, I was 103 lbs and a size 5. Now, over 50 lbs later, I have only gone to a size 8? When I lost 45 lbs, it became clear that every 10 lbs equaled one size down; now that I've gained 20 back, I went up one. The weight loss was in 2000, so just in eight years, the sizes of women's clothes has changed again drastically. It's probably likely that mom's size 10 dress would qualify as a 0.
Good grief....
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:58 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I have to admit that this is an issue that seriously irritates me. It can be about impossible at times to find clothing that fits properly. I am fairly petite, but I would never think of myself as a scrawny little waif. I wish woman's clothing sizes were more standardized like men's are. Certainly, most females would not care to have the waist/length markings visible to the world but it sure would make things far easier to shop. I have clothing in my dresser/closet that is in range of everything from a size 0 to a size 6, extra-small to extend to even a size large.

I have to try on practically everything that I purchase. It is a real challenge for myself as I am not very tall at 5'1" or so. It would be very nice to be able to just grab a pair of pants off a rack and head to the purchase counter.
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Old 08-18-2008, 02:14 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Heres my opinion:

Just like how a restaurant has to post the nutritional information on their items, apparel manufacterers and sellers should post a size chart when you walk in.

Heres how our sizes work:
If your bust/waist/hips/whatever/etc. measure is a \"____\" then your size is: ___.


Or a chart.

Just spell it out.
Is someone really not going to buy something because of the number or letter on the label?

If you need it, you need it. Dont waste my time with your bullshit sizing.
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Old 08-18-2008, 02:57 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yeah, I came across a pair of size 11 (juniors sizing) Roxy board shorts from my high school days. I am the same size now that I was then, and they're snug; supposedly I'm a size 8 now. Of course, Roxy sizes have always run small. But they've been doing this for years--this is why it's always a good idea to try clothing on.

And when people say they go by how their jeans fit to gauge their weight gain/loss, that's not always the best measure, unless you're using the same pair of jeans year in and year out, or they're hanging on to a pair of Levis with clear measurements on them!
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Old 08-18-2008, 05:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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They need to fix size and length. I'm 5'9" with long legs and some long length jeans have suddenly become too long for me. WTF! What are 5' women wearing, extra short?
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Old 08-18-2008, 06:47 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I have ALWAYS had an issue with the length of things. Being 5'10 until recently it was almost impossible to find anything that was long enough. When capris came back I was happy because it doesn't matter what length they are.

As far as clothing size I am a different size in every brand I wear. This range is quite large so I have to try everything on before I buy it.
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:52 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I've noticed the lengths have gotten longer too. I have a 34" inseam and used to have to buy men's jeans, then when they came out with women's long, I got those. Now longs are too long many times and I know my legs didn't shrink!
My daughter is 5'3", size 5 currently and all her jeans are way too long-but being 16, she thinks that's cool.

Side note:
I used to work for a men's clothing manufacturer. When we got an order that we didn't have enough items per size to fill, we tore out the tags from sizes one up and one down, resewed tags with the size needed into the items and shipped them. So, for instance, if Macy's ordered 12 size 38 jackets and we only had 8, we'd switch two size 36's and two size 40's.

That brings me to this: Why aren't women's sizes based on chest and waist like men's? Unless we all buy from the LL Bean or Eddie Baurer catalogs, which have size charts, we're at the mercy of the makers of the clothes.
One might consider a 12 a large, another calls it an X-large. And is a 12 for a 36" chest or a 34" one? Also, because of my long arms, I generally have to stay away from long sleeved blouses or buy one slightly larger than I should if I want sleeves down to my wrists. For some reason, I don't have this problem with sweaters.
-----Added 19/8/2008 at 12 : 03 : 41-----
Just found this. It was written two years ago at least, but it covers what we're talking about pretty well.
Finding clothes that fit

Last edited by ngdawg; 08-18-2008 at 08:03 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:03 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgadorSpartacus View Post
They need to fix size and length. I'm 5'9" with long legs and some long length jeans have suddenly become too long for me. WTF! What are 5' women wearing, extra short?
Yes.
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Clothing sizes are, at best, unpredictable. I remember seeing that article in the Globe a couple of years ago. I thought then that it was a little overstated, like a lot of the Globe feature stories. I shop for business wear mostly at a couple of different Ann Taylor stores here in Boston. A little pricey, but high quality. I love being able to buy separates to accommodate my busty but otherwise thin (“unbalanced” as my favorite salesperson puts it) body. And they always have a good selection of quality petite size clothing that doesn’t go for the “cute” look. There seem to be more young Asian women around in the last few years, and I think that has helped all of us petites (which in fashion-speak means short, not necessarily small.) I haven’t noticed the sizes changing any in the three or four years that I’ve been shopping there, but I sure have noticed that sizing varies from one brand or label to another. This is true even between Levies and Wrangler jeans.

I’ve always preferred the basic Levis or Wrangler look in jeans to the designer variety. I think casual should be, well, casual. Like as in informal. Unpretentious. My body (except for the boobs) is really more boyish than girly. I’m 5’ 2” with lean legs and not much of a butt. I’ve bought boys jeans (usually size 12 or 14) ever since… well, as long as I can remember. They are just about a perfect fit, form fitting but not overly tight, though usually needing to be hemmed. Sometimes I can go to a thrift store and come out three or four pair for a twenty dollar bill. No hundred dollar jeans or fifty dollar tee shirts for this girl. Helps me afford the Ann Taylor suits.

Besides being short, I am also long waisted. My legs are so short, they only barely reach the floor. That's a joke. So sometimes even petites need to be hemmed. I’m OK with that. I’ve gotten pretty good at minor alterations, and hemming a pair of pants usually only takes a few minutes, even with my clunky old hand-me-down sewing machine.
When I go home to Kansas in October I’ll check the closet in my old bedroom, and see how some size 3 skirts from the early nineties compare to size 3 now. Maybe even try on my old cheerleader’s outfit.

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Old 08-22-2008, 06:59 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I've noticed the change in the inseam length, too. It was always hard to find nice slacks with a long enough inseam in smaller sizes to accommodate my youthful skinniness . Now, the inseam length on most slacks is actually too long!
I recently bought a few pair of Carlisle slacks and was shocked at the length, and out of a few dollars after paying the seamstress to hem them for me. Big change from having to let the hems out. Where were all these pants when I was younger?
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Old 08-24-2008, 04:01 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I swear the older I get, the harder it is to find clothing that fits my scrawny ass. Though, in theory, asses and hips, etc, are supposed to get bigger. Perhaps I'll start shopping in the kids' section again.

Way cheaper! Plus the length of the pants won't be made for the equivalent of a 6'6" 105lb woman
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Old 08-27-2008, 12:47 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I don't get the sizes problem so much here in Portugal, usually the same size I usually wear fits me in different brands. The sizes here are a lot friendlier, just to give you an idea, I wear a size 36, and I'm small. 34 is considered very small. Below that and you're probably a teen. So they do go down...I've never heard of a size 0 here. In the UK I'm a size 8 or 10. Thank god I don't have to deal with the trauma of a size o!

I am only 5'4" and most times when I buy trousers I always have to have the hems done, they are always way too long...they don't do different lengths here. Sucks.
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgadorSpartacus View Post
They need to fix size and length. I'm 5'9" with long legs and some long length jeans have suddenly become too long for me. WTF! What are 5' women wearing, extra short?
Lol actualy yes *blushes*
i'm 5'3 and I have always had to wear short pants, and now even those drag the ground a bit
good to know I don't have premature osteoperosis


On the otherhand I guess I'm one of the people to be benifited by the size shift, concidering I have pretty close to marilyn monroe's figure (36-24-37) but have always Really seemed fat when telling my pants size
but then i digress with my ego, its jsut hard to feel fit in 12+pants

(sorry one of these days i'll learn to spellcheck prior to posting)

Last edited by Falconclaw240; 09-21-2008 at 12:13 PM..
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Old 09-21-2008, 06:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgadorSpartacus View Post
They need to fix size and length. I'm 5'9" with long legs and some long length jeans have suddenly become too long for me. WTF! What are 5' women wearing, extra short?
hahaha, I'm 5' 3/4" and it is HARD finding pants that don't drag. I usually end up shopping in the girl's section. Sizes are frustrating for me. I am small boned and petite so I can't even fit in the women's section, and even the petite sections are too big for me... I wish sizes just went by actual waist sizes like guys pants. Much more straight forward.

also, did you know that the sweet valley high series have updated their books so that the twins are not the perfect size 6, but the perfect size 4?? Is this just absolutely wrong to change the standards or is it just "updating" what a size 6 currently is today?
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