Women Are Expected To Be Perfect? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sunkssd · 02-27-2006, 04:55 PM

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?
Honestly, I think I am beautiful. Yeah, I may not be perfect, but I'm not trying to be. I am confident in who I am and whether I do my hair, put on make up, or even put on a bra, I'm still beautiful in my own way. When I look into the mirror I see myself exactly how I am and I cherish each every "flaw" or imperfection, because it is what makes me unique and beautiful.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?
Everyone already nailed this one on the head, the media.

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)
No one can live up to the standard the media set without sacrificing a part of themselves. When you put so much into your outer appearance, you lose a part of your inner beauty, that part that shines through and makes a normal, average looking girl, goregous.

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )
Probably not, but then again at work I am more concerned with my patients then how I look.

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?
I am happy with the way I present myself in all aspects of my life, physically. I don't go to work with a ton of make up on or high heel shoes. I go to work in proper attire (usually khakis and a sweater) and the only time I wear make up is when I want to. I do get compliments about how I look nice with make up on, but I don't let it affect me. Of course wearing make up is going to make most women look better in the eyes of some. I think I look good with make up on, so hearing a compliment about it makes sense to me. That doesn't throw up a red flag that I should wear make up every day. I honestly don't care what the people at work think about how I look. As long as I look professional and I do my job professionally I don't really care.

Gilda · 02-27-2006, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sultana

Just because a gal may be perceived as *perfect*, or slender, or good at makeup application, or whatever, it's not right to cast dispersions on her. Sure, it might make us feel better to call her shallow, or vain, or self-obsessed...but we actually don't know. *YOU* very well may be *that woman* to others, as much as you may laugh at the thought. OK, so Gilda (please forgive me for picking you as a specific example) is, in her mind, too small. To me, she's slender as a dancer, bringing to mind the elegant beauty of a young Audrey Hepburn, and I know I will *never* look like that. But it's not right for me to say, "OMG, she probably diets herself to distraction and spends all her spare time at the gym to look like that, how shallow!"

I think I can pretty safely say no woman has ever been jealous of my appearance or thought of me as *perfect*.

For the record, I don't do anything to stay thin. I do work out, but it's for muscle tone, not to lose weight. I actually have to be careful to make sure I always eat enough calories each day, or my weight starts to drop.

Gilda

Sweetpea · 03-01-2006, 10:03 PM

from a TFP male member who wished me to post his response.

Quote:

I find your thread extremely interesting, and I totally understand why you would post it in the Ladies Lounge...however I do think it would be interesting to hear from male points of view... How do we see women without makeup? "Perfection", etc.
Personally, I can't believe that bosses make comments like that. It's kind of disgusting. Also, comments on weight, everything like that, I don't think I'd personnally give any.. (Except if a woman has been trying to lose a few pounds because of a weight complex, then of course I'd try and make her feel like she's looking good.) It seems a bit... intrusive, somehow..
I think a woman shows much of her beauty through her attitude, personally, and if I were a boss, seeing my employees in a good mood would probably trigger me to say nice things.

Sadly, I think there is something in us (both men and women) that believes in an "ideal" for women, and that the ones who don't represent it have to try and reach it. I love seeing a woman totally comfortable with herself, no matter how differebr she looks from that chick on the TV screen. ..it's so relaxing.

veruca · 03-08-2006, 07:33 PM

this thread made me think of this quote that I read in Oprah a few months ago:

" are you waiting to be skinnier, thinner, more toned, more tanned, better dressed,sexier,more lovable, nicer, smarter, funnier, or wealthier before you really begin your life? Millions of us are. and it's a complete waste of time. body obsession and the quest for perfection are destroying our lives, and we are willing partners in this destruction." -- Jennifer Weiner

It hit home with me...lol..I just bought the book:

(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/141..._encoding=UTF8)

and I can't wait to read it...lol

I think I have fewer body issues than most, and I am not a small or excessively pretty girl. I was raised by a staunch feminist mother who made sure I knew that my worth was between my ears and not my body.

Supple Cow · 03-08-2006, 09:20 PM

I've been circling this thread, and honestly, I just don't know where to start. I might have started with answering the questions in the OP, but I think I'll get to those later when I can more clearly articulate my thoughts. For now, I just wanted to pick out this one thing that stood out to me:

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

I'm not hating on men here -- I love men - they are one of my favorite genders... but I really wonder about the mindset where boys think that there is a standard of hotness that they are entitled to?

I've noticed this feeling of entitlement as well and I really think the penis is to blame (in concert with the other major culprit: socialization). I say this because I'm a pretty moderate believer in physical/biological/physiological cues' ability to shape our thought processes. How does this explain why there's a trend among men to feel entitled to some arbitrary level of attractiveness (regardless of whether or not he considers himself attractive in comparable ways) in women? Because men are afraid their penises will get soft and this will make them lesser men. Why blame the penis when you can blame all those ugly chicks out there?

I know I just put down a whole big steaming bowl of unsupported assertion, but I can't help but feel that this is operating on some level... almost imperceptibly, but pervasively. To be sure, the way I phrased it would be insulting to most men I know (and probably most men I don't know)... but that's the point. It's not really as harsh or defined as being The Culprit, as I've rather cheekily referred to it already, but I think it's one of those forces out there in the mix. Add to that the concept of schadenfreude and a bunch of other people who are insecure in the same way and you've got yourself a room (real or virtual) full of men who think they have some kind of right to expect every woman to look like [insert favorite attractive famous woman here] to be worth anything.

I could say plenty more, but I think I'll stop here for now. Somebody probably has something to say to me about this. (And if this seems irrelevant... well, I promise this isn't a random threadjack. This is just a small piece of my very elaborate answer to the OP.)

Sweetpea · 03-09-2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

I think I can pretty safely say no woman has ever been jealous of my appearance or thought of me as *perfect*.

For the record, I don't do anything to stay thin. I do work out, but it's for muscle tone, not to lose weight. I actually have to be careful to make sure I always eat enough calories each day, or my weight starts to drop.

Gilda

I'm envious of your figure Gilda and i happen to consider it perfect and i'm not just saying that because you're my girly

I do actually happen to consider you perfect.

sweetpea

Sweetpea · 03-09-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supple Cow

I've been circling this thread, and honestly, I just don't know where to start. I might have started with answering the questions in the OP, but I think I'll get to those later when I can more clearly articulate my thoughts. For now, I just wanted to pick out this one thing that stood out to me:

I've noticed this feeling of entitlement as well and I really think the penis is to blame (in concert with the other major culprit: socialization). I say this because I'm a pretty moderate believer in physical/biological/physiological cues' ability to shape our thought processes. How does this explain why there's a trend among men to feel entitled to some arbitrary level of attractiveness (regardless of whether or not he considers himself attractive in comparable ways) in women? Because men are afraid their penises will get soft and this will make them lesser men. Why blame the penis when you can blame all those ugly chicks out there?

I know I just put down a whole big steaming bowl of unsupported assertion, but I can't help but feel that this is operating on some level... almost imperceptibly, but pervasively. To be sure, the way I phrased it would be insulting to most men I know (and probably most men I don't know)... but that's the point. It's not really as harsh or defined as being The Culprit, as I've rather cheekily referred to it already, but I think it's one of those forces out there in the mix. Add to that the concept of schadenfreude and a bunch of other people who are insecure in the same way and you've got yourself a room (real or virtual) full of men who think they have some kind of right to expect every woman to look like [insert favorite attractive famous woman here] to be worth anything.

I could say plenty more, but I think I'll stop here for now. Somebody probably has something to say to me about this. (And if this seems irrelevant... well, I promise this isn't a random threadjack. This is just a small piece of my very elaborate answer to the OP.)

Wow, thank you SC for adding some interesting thoughts to this discussion and you've made some good points. In this society where we are so image driven... why do we even say things like 'his or her Level of attractiveness' i mean... what is that? What about who someone is as a person... is it all really about sex? Is that what we're reduced to as human beings? we're all just body parts to be judged?

I started this thread... because my boss expects me to assert myself based on my "appearance" not on who i am. And i have to say... i buy into our society's image a little... i am not immune to wanting to living up to this 'hotness standard'. But the funny thing is... i hold myself to this impossible standard, but i don't hold other people to it. I think people are worthy for Who They Are, not what they look like... but why can't i view myself like that? something i'm working on.

You made a point about it being the fault of the penis ... but I think it goes both ways though. I would like to point out that i've seen women do this too... even though they might not consider themsevles very attractive, they will reject a man for being 'too thin, too big, too short, too....' And what is that? I don't do that. I view someone as a whole package... man or woman... and if i happen to be attracted to the person on a physical level too, then damn, i've just hit the jackpot.

SC, i look forward to hearing your further thoughts on this.

sweetpea

Sweetpea · 03-09-2006, 02:30 PM

from a tfp male member: who i think added some great thoughts.
______________________________________________________________

"I feel compelled to stick up for my gender a little bit here. On the off chance that Supple Cow was 100% serious in her post, I can relate that at least one man (myself) doesn't create media stereotypes or go for women solely because I am afraid my penis will get soft. I'm attracted to people I'm attracted to, period. Sometimes they match conventional ideas of beauty and sometimes they don't.

I think women put more pressure on themselves and each other than men do... I'll offer a couple of points of evidence. Magazines like Maxim and Stuff certainly present an unrealistic picture of a man's "ideal woman". On the other hand, even this presentation makes it clear that the picture painted is purely one of fantasy. I don't think that men read those things and honestly respond by expecting people that they know to be like those women any more than they look at Motor Trend and feel that their Nissan Maxima isn't a good car because it isn't like a Forumula 1 racer. On the other hand, women's magazines such as Vogue, Cosmo, etc. are filled with unrealistic portrayals of women that are more dangerous in that they are shown as a depiction of the "ideal woman". This image isn't just carried in the advertising either, look at the articles. A magazine that pressents tips on how to be that perfect woman is obviously propagating the idea that this ideal is one that women should adopt.

Consider the portrayals of women in Bond films and "chick flicks". Yeah, the Bond chicks are hot, but they are clearly presented in the same over-the-top manner that Bond himself is shown in. However, Meg Ryan, Reese Witherspoon et al are shown in a way that encourages people to expect that from those that they know in their real lives.

Most (admittedly not all) of the men that I know are capable of separating a fantasy from their expectations of real people. I think we're far more accepting, and often loving, of women's flaws than women themselves are. We love you guys, really..."

Sweetpea · 03-10-2006, 11:15 AM

from another male poster who wanted to offer his thoughts:

"i know this thread is about women being expected to be perfect and not about men but......in reply to a certain poster..... the "ideal" image goes both ways.

You can't point fingers at men when women do it as well. I know and have seen plenty of women comment on a males looks and body parts regardless if they consider themselves as having a perfect body or not. Do they as well think they are entitled to having a male look/have something to be worth a damn?

heck i don't know if i can call some posters here hypocrites or contradictive but i can use a thread here where people were talking about what is the perfect penis as an example of expecting the "ideal". hrmm from what i remember there was one or more posters there making fun of their past partners ..why? Because he wasn't "perfect"???????"

Sweetpea · 03-10-2006, 11:42 AM

I would like to say that i don't think any posters in here are blaming "men" or saying everything is their fault.

i think that society perpetuates the image that this:
"insert skinny gorgeous model here" is what men want and that sometimes gets tied in with what women think men actually want. We are responding to that image that the media puts out there for us.

As for me... no, i've never left someone because i didn't think they were "perfect" Like i've said... i look at the whole package.

My breakups have all happened because i was not compatible personality-wise with them, not because of any 'perfection' issue.

I expect the people i'm interested in to be good, kind and intelligent people.
^^ those are my top qualities i look for, and if i'm also attracted to them physically, then wow, i'm sold on the person

any other ladies who would like to offer their thoughts?

sweetpea

veruca · 03-11-2006, 05:12 AM

We were just talking about this again at the rehearsal dinner for the wedding I am in sunday. A couple of the girls in the wedding with me ...are what we as women perceive men to think as perfect. Tall, skinny as hell, gorgeous long blonde hair, and just plain beautiful. And there are a couple like me...just normal..lol. My husband and a few other of the men were very serious when I commented on how GORGEOUS they looked in their cocktail dresses....and all of them respnded "not really...she has no ass..she looks she needs a sandwich, and really I prefer your dark redhair to blonde"

I ,of course, was just like "shut up she is perfect"...and they looked at me like I was insane and went on eating.

I honestly think it is US as women who put it on ourselves that we should be perfect, and what perfect is. I think the majority of men are not looking at those women we so admire and thinking the same thoughts as we are...about how perfect she is. I have found even in myself, that I dress for other women, not for men. I want the women to look at me and desire to be like me, and not the other way around for a change.

Sweetpea · 03-12-2006, 01:37 PM

Thank you Vercua for offering your thoughts.

any other tfp ladies want to share... or respond to the male members comments that were posted above?

sweetpea

cellophanedeity · 03-12-2006, 03:02 PM

I tend to be quite honest with myself. I like how soft my skin is, and the way my curves feel. I like the shape of my face, the colour of my hair, and how cute my ears are. I also criticize the largeness of my nose, though I like the shape of it, the double chin I get in photos, and the twenty pounds I should be losing for health reasons.

I understand that I am who I am, and that there's more to my beauty than the way I look, but sometimes I just want to look like a covermodel.

The bar is only high because we like it there. We look at models and like the way they look, with their airbrushed makeup and thin forms. When we look at magazines, we don't want to see people that look like people we see every day. We want to see people that look like Halle Berry and Paris Hilton and Angelina Jolie, and I don't see this as a necessarily bad thing. The problem begins when we want to translate these fantasy images into a reality for all people.

Some people are able to look like covermodels without huge amounts of effort. Some of these people are lovely, while some of them only look it. Other women are beautiful with a bit of extra weight, or smaller breasts, or imperfect skin.

In real life, beauty is defined by who you are, not what you look like. I'm 5'7 and 170 pounds. I have pockmarks from chickenpox, and stretchmarks all down my thighs and around my sides from growing too fast. I have large, gapped front teeth, hideous feet and a pointy nose...

I'm still told I'm beautiful, and I often believe it.

I'm not covermodel material, and most of the women that you will encounter will not be. The select few that are covermodel material are lucky, but I wouldn't say that they're necessarily more beautiful than those of us that aren't. We're just different.

And just as a reminder... http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=97109

maleficent · 03-12-2006, 03:03 PM

I think veruca's on to something with her post... though i'm not sure a lot of women intentionally dress for other owmen -- though unintentionally -- that might be the case.

Many of the women I know tend to be the harshest critics of other women... Men will rarely comment, negatively, when a woman is dressed provatively, or is wearing too much makeup -- or any of the bazillion other catty things that women say to other women...

It's been a long time since i was in high school - but that was brutal - not for the guys - but from the comments that girls would make... Though I'm not excusing some guys from it as well...

Girls seem to use catty comments about other girls to boost their own self esteem -- they tear soemoene else down to make them look good... Where as, some guys, need that "hot" chick on their arm to boost their own self esteem... If both genders stopped worrying about what other people thought... and only were concerned about what was inside themselves... I think we'd all be a bit happier

maleficent · 03-12-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellophanedeity

I have large, gapped front teeth, hi

you and Lauren Hutton...

you're both beautiful...

Supple Cow · 03-13-2006, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a tfp male member

:I feel compelled to stick up for my gender a little bit here. On the off chance that Supple Cow was 100% serious in her post, I can relate that at least one man (myself) doesn't create media stereotypes or go for women solely because I am afraid my penis will get soft. I'm attracted to people I'm attracted to, period. Sometimes they match conventional ideas of beauty and sometimes they don't.

This TFP fellow is right in suspecting I wasn't being 100% serious in that post because I was deliberately using the language like "blame" and "culprit" to see what kind of response I would receive. I don't actually think that anything is as simple as being able to say, 'I blame the penis for making men afraid to appreciate beauty in other forms than what the media presents.' That said, I am 100% serious about having more discussion in this thread about the deeper issue I addressed: the culture of being male. Just like any culture (and this can be true whether or not you are "born into it"), you can choose to participate or not. Evidence of one member on this board (and many, many more I'm sure) who does not buy into this culture does not mean that the culture does not exist. So, thank you (whoever you are) for chiming in with this - especially because I have an interest in the rest of what you have written - but please don't think that I have been attacking men as a class of people. If anything, I have more of a beef with the culture of maleness than I do with any men who may or may not participate in the culture I describe.

On a meta note, I'm glad that there are men on this board who are reading this and contributing through the women. I hope there is more of it because I see what might be a very constructive discussion about something I have long wanted to address both on the TFP and in my life. In fact, I had hoped to start a discussion like this in the Coming Together forum, but this format (where the male members' participation is anonymous and added to the discussion through a female member) may prove to be more productive in reaching new levels of understanding.

ClostGoth · 03-13-2006, 07:42 AM

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?
I have the worst body image of any woman I know. I just do NOT have a realistic idea of what my own body looks like, and I've never been able to look into a mirror without hating what I see.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?
Honestly, I think we set it ourselves for the most part. It's based on how we allow feedback from those around us to effect our self image, how we view those in the media, and probably a host of other factors going back to infancy in each of us! IMO, anyway.

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)
No, I don't think so. I think we all find our own peace with the issue in one way or another. If you see someone whom you believe to be the epitome of everything a woman should be you'd be surprised at how she views herself. Have you ever heard an interview with a super model or actress who expresses surprise and wonder that anyone would find her worth viewing on the big screen? I have. And someone I felt was particularly perfect, too. :-)

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (I’d like to know how!)
Personally, I'd rather like to know how to stop worrying about it. I'm tired of hating myself. I've been trying to be other people's ideas of what I should be for so long that I don't know who _I_ am any more...

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself physically, professionally?
Not me!

Now the posts from the men were incredibly interesting. I've heard those views expressed before, and I have no idea why it's so hard to believe them. I don't mind my DH participating in the cultural phenomenon called porn. I don't mind participating with him on occasion if he so desires. I have admitted to myself that the thing about it that bothers me most is jealousy. Not that I be more like the ladies on the screen/in mags/whatever, but that he prefers to spend time with them. I think that reflects negatively in my own self image. If I were pretty enough, smart enough, sexy enough... If my boobs were bigger, smaller, whatever... If my hips were smaller, if my waist was smaller... All these reasons why he would be more interested in me and less interested in THEM if I were more like them. I think we all just need to hear that we're beautiful the way we are. Repeatedly and from many different sources!! ;-) We want to know how our significant others feel about us, and it's nice to hear how they see us on occasion too. It surprises me, every time I hear it, that my husband finds me appealing in any way. Because I certainly don't find myself to be so.

Trielle · 03-21-2006, 05:08 PM

*How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?*
Sometimes I dont like what i see, but for the most part I am happy with myself.

*Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?*
The only explenation i have is that people are vain and think that in order to be beautiful, you have to look a certain way.

*And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)*
Women can live up to these expectations, but I would rather not. I am doing great not because I have a "perfect" figure and I dont wear makeup all the time, but because I am good at what I do.

*Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )*
Nope, and I dont intend to. I like being me and so does my bf. He loves me for who I am and thinks I look beautiful. On the clothing side is the only side that I prefer looking sharp in a suit as opposed to jeans and a tshirt. Occasionally I do wear makeup, but for the most part, I couldnt be bothered.

*How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?*
I am happy with myself for the most part. I would like to lose some wight, but all in all, I dont want to be skinny. I think a little bit of round is very sexy and curves turn me on. Proffesionally, I do enjoy having my hair look great, my makeup look amazing, and look great in a suit, but for myself only.

Sweetpea · 03-21-2006, 11:38 PM

Thank you Supplecow, clostgoth and trielle for oferring your thoughts.

SC, i agree with you... i'd like this disucssion to continue. The culture of 'maleness' and the subsequent culture of 'perfection' that is taught to men is certainly something that is pervasive in our society....

Any men who would like to PM me with their thoughts on anything that has been said in this thread... please do.

sweetpea

Sultana · 03-22-2006, 08:38 AM

Regarding media -
The crazy thing is that even the models don't look like the models in the mags. Think about it: First a woman who is considered to be very beautiful and photogenic (*not* the same thing, by the way!) is hired. Then she is surrounded by:
Lighting professionals
Make up professionals
Hair professionals
Clothing professionals
Photography professionals

Then after 100's of photos are taken, the best 3, perhaps, are gone over with photoshop to smooth out the bumps, the pores, the "imperfections" of being human that this model endures. And *those* are the pictures that we see. Several days of effort, teams of highly-specialized professionals, etc.

If we had that, we'd look as good. It's all about presentation, and without that presentation, the actors and models would be pretty much the same as us, give or take.

I know I can't possibly compete with that, so I don't. I've determined how much money, effort, and time I'm willing to expend on various aspects of my appearance, and what my motives are (health? vanity? trying to project a professional image to make the most of opportunities that come my way?), and what realistic expectations I can have, and then I let it go. I have too much life to live to worry (although believe you me, I totally didn't have the same mind-set in my 20's. When I think of all the time I wasted...) about stuff like that.

Regarding men -
I don't know if I mentioned this already, but when guys go shopping, and they're trying on some pants that don't suit them, they say, "These pants are too small/short/whatever." When gals shop, they say, "I'm too fat/short/pale/whatever." Such a small, yet fundamental thought process difference that I think really illustrates the difference in how women look at themselves vs. how men look at themselves.

And look at this relatively new categorization of men - Metrosexuals. Men who groom themselves more than the minimum, put more effort into their clothing, etc. - behaviors that are defined as fundamentally *feminine*. Why?
Over the centuries of human civilization, beauty and desirability have ALWAYS been the currency of female worth. That's just how it is. Not saying it's right or wrong, but I can't see it any other way. Society, with very few exceptions, has been male-dominated, and males are undeniably visually oriented. And that has shaped the path of all cultural development...which brings us back to media.

It'd be interesting to imagine how life would be different if society had been matriarchic-run/-based than patriarchic. And *please* don't think I'm imagining the world'd be a better place at all. But it would most certainly be different. What would be important to us? What wars would have been avoided, and what wars would have replaced them?

But now I think I'm getting more than a little off-topic.

Pip · 03-22-2006, 11:00 AM

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?
As long as I'm clean and in good health, I like what I see. Sure, I wish my nose looked a bit less like a baby nose and sometimes my hair is just awful, but other days I can be awestruck by how soft and plump my lips are. I have good parts and not so good parts just like everyone else, and sometimes I look on the not so good and despair, and sometimes I look on the good and rejoice.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?
This ties in with the women as multitaskers - men as "monotaskers" myth; women are supposed to be able to do so much more at the same time. So women are groomed to be both housekeepers and lovers and professionals at the same time - and to look stunning when they do it. It's not one bar, it's a hurdle race.

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)
I think the way to (personal) success is to choose which hurdles to jump and which to run around. Some people have the capacity to jump several, some only a few. The key is to not stumble and get tangled up in a hurdle, because that smarts.

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )
Not me, but I don't have that ambition either. And as long as my bosses don't have a problem with my appearance I don't have a problem either.

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?
I'm happy. There's always room for improvement, of course. I wish I'd look a bit older and less cute sometimes, it's hard to be taken seriously when you have my babyface, and I wish I was physically stronger. But asides from that? Nah. Details. Someone mentioned something from Oprah about enjoying the present instead of thinking about how awesome your life will be in the hypotetical future when you're perfect, and that's so true. I try to live by that, but I need to remind myself every now and then.

Sweetpea · 03-24-2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sultana

Regarding men -
I don't know if I mentioned this already, but when guys go shopping, and they're trying on some pants that don't suit them, they say, "These pants are too small/short/whatever." When gals shop, they say, "I'm too fat/short/pale/whatever." Such a small, yet fundamental thought process difference that I think really illustrates the difference in how women look at themselves vs. how men look at themselves.
.

^^ That was a very interesting insight Sultana. And thank you also Pip for your comments and contribution to this thread.

In fact, when out shopping recently, i think i said "i'm too short for these pants and the male that was out with us commented that "these jeans are too long for me" not "i'm too short for these jeans"

So your comment really hits home for me as being part of the thought process that some (or most) woman use to process their interactions with the world.

Do women internalize things and men externalize things?

And is that encouraged in our society/culture?

sweetpea

ash · 03-25-2006, 12:47 PM

well, i have struggled with this issue for a long time. i used to be a model and i think models worry about image too much. i quit knowing that i contributed to the stigma of being that "perfect woman". i shaved my head and now dont wear any makeup. i think im protesting

i have always lived knowing i am myself and being that way is perfect.

03-08-2006, 07:33 PM	#44 (permalink)
veruca Psycho Location: 4 privet drive	this thread made me think of this quote that I read in Oprah a few months ago: " are you waiting to be skinnier, thinner, more toned, more tanned, better dressed,sexier,more lovable, nicer, smarter, funnier, or wealthier before you really begin your life? Millions of us are. and it's a complete waste of time. body obsession and the quest for perfection are destroying our lives, and we are willing partners in this destruction." -- Jennifer Weiner It hit home with me...lol..I just bought the book: (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/141..._encoding=UTF8) and I can't wait to read it...lol I think I have fewer body issues than most, and I am not a small or excessively pretty girl. I was raised by a staunch feminist mother who made sure I knew that my worth was between my ears and not my body. __________________ How you turned my world, you precious thing You starve and near exhaust me Everything I've done, I've done for you I move the stars for no one

03-09-2006, 02:30 PM	#48 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	from a tfp male member: who i think added some great thoughts. ______________________________________________________________ "I feel compelled to stick up for my gender a little bit here. On the off chance that Supple Cow was 100% serious in her post, I can relate that at least one man (myself) doesn't create media stereotypes or go for women solely because I am afraid my penis will get soft. I'm attracted to people I'm attracted to, period. Sometimes they match conventional ideas of beauty and sometimes they don't. I think women put more pressure on themselves and each other than men do... I'll offer a couple of points of evidence. Magazines like Maxim and Stuff certainly present an unrealistic picture of a man's "ideal woman". On the other hand, even this presentation makes it clear that the picture painted is purely one of fantasy. I don't think that men read those things and honestly respond by expecting people that they know to be like those women any more than they look at Motor Trend and feel that their Nissan Maxima isn't a good car because it isn't like a Forumula 1 racer. On the other hand, women's magazines such as Vogue, Cosmo, etc. are filled with unrealistic portrayals of women that are more dangerous in that they are shown as a depiction of the "ideal woman". This image isn't just carried in the advertising either, look at the articles. A magazine that pressents tips on how to be that perfect woman is obviously propagating the idea that this ideal is one that women should adopt. Consider the portrayals of women in Bond films and "chick flicks". Yeah, the Bond chicks are hot, but they are clearly presented in the same over-the-top manner that Bond himself is shown in. However, Meg Ryan, Reese Witherspoon et al are shown in a way that encourages people to expect that from those that they know in their real lives. Most (admittedly not all) of the men that I know are capable of separating a fantasy from their expectations of real people. I think we're far more accepting, and often loving, of women's flaws than women themselves are. We love you guys, really..." __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

03-10-2006, 11:15 AM	#49 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	from another male poster who wanted to offer his thoughts: "i know this thread is about women being expected to be perfect and not about men but......in reply to a certain poster..... the "ideal" image goes both ways. You can't point fingers at men when women do it as well. I know and have seen plenty of women comment on a males looks and body parts regardless if they consider themselves as having a perfect body or not. Do they as well think they are entitled to having a male look/have something to be worth a damn? heck i don't know if i can call some posters here hypocrites or contradictive but i can use a thread here where people were talking about what is the perfect penis as an example of expecting the "ideal". hrmm from what i remember there was one or more posters there making fun of their past partners ..why? Because he wasn't "perfect"???????" __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

03-10-2006, 11:42 AM	#50 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	I would like to say that i don't think any posters in here are blaming "men" or saying everything is their fault. i think that society perpetuates the image that this: "insert skinny gorgeous model here" is what men want and that sometimes gets tied in with what women think men actually want. We are responding to that image that the media puts out there for us. As for me... no, i've never left someone because i didn't think they were "perfect" Like i've said... i look at the whole package. My breakups have all happened because i was not compatible personality-wise with them, not because of any 'perfection' issue. I expect the people i'm interested in to be good, kind and intelligent people. ^^ those are my top qualities i look for, and if i'm also attracted to them physically, then wow, i'm sold on the person any other ladies who would like to offer their thoughts? sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

03-11-2006, 05:12 AM	#51 (permalink)
veruca Psycho Location: 4 privet drive	We were just talking about this again at the rehearsal dinner for the wedding I am in sunday. A couple of the girls in the wedding with me ...are what we as women perceive men to think as perfect. Tall, skinny as hell, gorgeous long blonde hair, and just plain beautiful. And there are a couple like me...just normal..lol. My husband and a few other of the men were very serious when I commented on how GORGEOUS they looked in their cocktail dresses....and all of them respnded "not really...she has no ass..she looks she needs a sandwich, and really I prefer your dark redhair to blonde" I ,of course, was just like "shut up she is perfect"...and they looked at me like I was insane and went on eating. I honestly think it is US as women who put it on ourselves that we should be perfect, and what perfect is. I think the majority of men are not looking at those women we so admire and thinking the same thoughts as we are...about how perfect she is. I have found even in myself, that I dress for other women, not for men. I want the women to look at me and desire to be like me, and not the other way around for a change. __________________ How you turned my world, you precious thing You starve and near exhaust me Everything I've done, I've done for you I move the stars for no one

02-27-2006, 04:55 PM	#41 (permalink)
sunkssd Upright Location: MI	How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it? Honestly, I think I am beautiful. Yeah, I may not be perfect, but I'm not trying to be. I am confident in who I am and whether I do my hair, put on make up, or even put on a bra, I'm still beautiful in my own way. When I look into the mirror I see myself exactly how I am and I cherish each every "flaw" or imperfection, because it is what makes me unique and beautiful. Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women? Everyone already nailed this one on the head, the media. And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful) No one can live up to the standard the media set without sacrificing a part of themselves. When you put so much into your outer appearance, you lose a part of your inner beauty, that part that shines through and makes a normal, average looking girl, goregous. Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! ) Probably not, but then again at work I am more concerned with my patients then how I look. How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally? I am happy with the way I present myself in all aspects of my life, physically. I don't go to work with a ton of make up on or high heel shoes. I go to work in proper attire (usually khakis and a sweater) and the only time I wear make up is when I want to. I do get compliments about how I look nice with make up on, but I don't let it affect me. Of course wearing make up is going to make most women look better in the eyes of some. I think I look good with make up on, so hearing a compliment about it makes sense to me. That doesn't throw up a red flag that I should wear make up every day. I honestly don't care what the people at work think about how I look. As long as I look professional and I do my job professionally I don't really care.

03-12-2006, 01:37 PM	#52 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	Thank you Vercua for offering your thoughts. any other tfp ladies want to share... or respond to the male members comments that were posted above? sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

03-12-2006, 03:02 PM	#53 (permalink)
cellophanedeity Heliotrope Location: A warm room	I tend to be quite honest with myself. I like how soft my skin is, and the way my curves feel. I like the shape of my face, the colour of my hair, and how cute my ears are. I also criticize the largeness of my nose, though I like the shape of it, the double chin I get in photos, and the twenty pounds I should be losing for health reasons. I understand that I am who I am, and that there's more to my beauty than the way I look, but sometimes I just want to look like a covermodel. The bar is only high because we like it there. We look at models and like the way they look, with their airbrushed makeup and thin forms. When we look at magazines, we don't want to see people that look like people we see every day. We want to see people that look like Halle Berry and Paris Hilton and Angelina Jolie, and I don't see this as a necessarily bad thing. The problem begins when we want to translate these fantasy images into a reality for all people. Some people are able to look like covermodels without huge amounts of effort. Some of these people are lovely, while some of them only look it. Other women are beautiful with a bit of extra weight, or smaller breasts, or imperfect skin. In real life, beauty is defined by who you are, not what you look like. I'm 5'7 and 170 pounds. I have pockmarks from chickenpox, and stretchmarks all down my thighs and around my sides from growing too fast. I have large, gapped front teeth, hideous feet and a pointy nose... I'm still told I'm beautiful, and I often believe it. I'm not covermodel material, and most of the women that you will encounter will not be. The select few that are covermodel material are lucky, but I wouldn't say that they're necessarily more beautiful than those of us that aren't. We're just different. And just as a reminder... http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=97109 __________________ who am I to refuse the universe? -Leonard Cohen, Beautiful Losers

03-12-2006, 03:03 PM	#54 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I think veruca's on to something with her post... though i'm not sure a lot of women intentionally dress for other owmen -- though unintentionally -- that might be the case. Many of the women I know tend to be the harshest critics of other women... Men will rarely comment, negatively, when a woman is dressed provatively, or is wearing too much makeup -- or any of the bazillion other catty things that women say to other women... It's been a long time since i was in high school - but that was brutal - not for the guys - but from the comments that girls would make... Though I'm not excusing some guys from it as well... Girls seem to use catty comments about other girls to boost their own self esteem -- they tear soemoene else down to make them look good... Where as, some guys, need that "hot" chick on their arm to boost their own self esteem... If both genders stopped worrying about what other people thought... and only were concerned about what was inside themselves... I think we'd all be a bit happier __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

03-13-2006, 07:42 AM	#57 (permalink)
ClostGoth Crazy Location: Omaha, NE	How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it? I have the worst body image of any woman I know. I just do NOT have a realistic idea of what my own body looks like, and I've never been able to look into a mirror without hating what I see. Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women? Honestly, I think we set it ourselves for the most part. It's based on how we allow feedback from those around us to effect our self image, how we view those in the media, and probably a host of other factors going back to infancy in each of us! IMO, anyway. And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful) No, I don't think so. I think we all find our own peace with the issue in one way or another. If you see someone whom you believe to be the epitome of everything a woman should be you'd be surprised at how she views herself. Have you ever heard an interview with a super model or actress who expresses surprise and wonder that anyone would find her worth viewing on the big screen? I have. And someone I felt was particularly perfect, too. :-) Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (I’d like to know how!) Personally, I'd rather like to know how to stop worrying about it. I'm tired of hating myself. I've been trying to be other people's ideas of what I should be for so long that I don't know who _I_ am any more... How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself physically, professionally? Not me! Now the posts from the men were incredibly interesting. I've heard those views expressed before, and I have no idea why it's so hard to believe them. I don't mind my DH participating in the cultural phenomenon called porn. I don't mind participating with him on occasion if he so desires. I have admitted to myself that the thing about it that bothers me most is jealousy. Not that I be more like the ladies on the screen/in mags/whatever, but that he prefers to spend time with them. I think that reflects negatively in my own self image. If I were pretty enough, smart enough, sexy enough... If my boobs were bigger, smaller, whatever... If my hips were smaller, if my waist was smaller... All these reasons why he would be more interested in me and less interested in THEM if I were more like them. I think we all just need to hear that we're beautiful the way we are. Repeatedly and from many different sources!! ;-) We want to know how our significant others feel about us, and it's nice to hear how they see us on occasion too. It surprises me, every time I hear it, that my husband finds me appealing in any way. Because I certainly don't find myself to be so.

03-21-2006, 05:08 PM	#58 (permalink)
Trielle Upright	How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it? Sometimes I dont like what i see, but for the most part I am happy with myself. Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women? The only explenation i have is that people are vain and think that in order to be beautiful, you have to look a certain way. And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful) Women can live up to these expectations, but I would rather not. I am doing great not because I have a "perfect" figure and I dont wear makeup all the time, but because I am good at what I do. Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! ) Nope, and I dont intend to. I like being me and so does my bf. He loves me for who I am and thinks I look beautiful. On the clothing side is the only side that I prefer looking sharp in a suit as opposed to jeans and a tshirt. Occasionally I do wear makeup, but for the most part, I couldnt be bothered. How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally? I am happy with myself for the most part. I would like to lose some wight, but all in all, I dont want to be skinny. I think a little bit of round is very sexy and curves turn me on. Proffesionally, I do enjoy having my hair look great, my makeup look amazing, and look great in a suit, but for myself only. Last edited by Trielle; 03-21-2006 at 05:13 PM..

03-21-2006, 11:38 PM	#59 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	Thank you Supplecow, clostgoth and trielle for oferring your thoughts. SC, i agree with you... i'd like this disucssion to continue. The culture of 'maleness' and the subsequent culture of 'perfection' that is taught to men is certainly something that is pervasive in our society.... Any men who would like to PM me with their thoughts on anything that has been said in this thread... please do. sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

03-22-2006, 08:38 AM	#60 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	Regarding media - The crazy thing is that even the models don't look like the models in the mags. Think about it: First a woman who is considered to be very beautiful and photogenic (not the same thing, by the way!) is hired. Then she is surrounded by: Lighting professionals Make up professionals Hair professionals Clothing professionals Photography professionals Then after 100's of photos are taken, the best 3, perhaps, are gone over with photoshop to smooth out the bumps, the pores, the "imperfections" of being human that this model endures. And those are the pictures that we see. Several days of effort, teams of highly-specialized professionals, etc. If we had that, we'd look as good. It's all about presentation, and without that presentation, the actors and models would be pretty much the same as us, give or take. I know I can't possibly compete with that, so I don't. I've determined how much money, effort, and time I'm willing to expend on various aspects of my appearance, and what my motives are (health? vanity? trying to project a professional image to make the most of opportunities that come my way?), and what realistic expectations I can have, and then I let it go. I have too much life to live to worry (although believe you me, I totally didn't have the same mind-set in my 20's. When I think of all the time I wasted...) about stuff like that. Regarding men - I don't know if I mentioned this already, but when guys go shopping, and they're trying on some pants that don't suit them, they say, "These pants are too small/short/whatever." When gals shop, they say, "I'm too fat/short/pale/whatever." Such a small, yet fundamental thought process difference that I think really illustrates the difference in how women look at themselves vs. how men look at themselves. And look at this relatively new categorization of men - Metrosexuals. Men who groom themselves more than the minimum, put more effort into their clothing, etc. - behaviors that are defined as fundamentally feminine. Why? Over the centuries of human civilization, beauty and desirability have ALWAYS been the currency of female worth. That's just how it is. Not saying it's right or wrong, but I can't see it any other way. Society, with very few exceptions, has been male-dominated, and males are undeniably visually oriented. And that has shaped the path of all cultural development...which brings us back to media. It'd be interesting to imagine how life would be different if society had been matriarchic-run/-based than patriarchic. And please don't think I'm imagining the world'd be a better place at all. But it would most certainly be different. What would be important to us? What wars would have been avoided, and what wars would have replaced them? But now I think I'm getting more than a little off-topic. __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential.

03-22-2006, 11:00 AM	#61 (permalink)
Pip Likes Hats Location: Stockholm, Sweden	How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it? As long as I'm clean and in good health, I like what I see. Sure, I wish my nose looked a bit less like a baby nose and sometimes my hair is just awful, but other days I can be awestruck by how soft and plump my lips are. I have good parts and not so good parts just like everyone else, and sometimes I look on the not so good and despair, and sometimes I look on the good and rejoice. Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women? This ties in with the women as multitaskers - men as "monotaskers" myth; women are supposed to be able to do so much more at the same time. So women are groomed to be both housekeepers and lovers and professionals at the same time - and to look stunning when they do it. It's not one bar, it's a hurdle race. And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful) I think the way to (personal) success is to choose which hurdles to jump and which to run around. Some people have the capacity to jump several, some only a few. The key is to not stumble and get tangled up in a hurdle, because that smarts. Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! ) Not me, but I don't have that ambition either. And as long as my bosses don't have a problem with my appearance I don't have a problem either. How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally? I'm happy. There's always room for improvement, of course. I wish I'd look a bit older and less cute sometimes, it's hard to be taken seriously when you have my babyface, and I wish I was physically stronger. But asides from that? Nah. Details. Someone mentioned something from Oprah about enjoying the present instead of thinking about how awesome your life will be in the hypotetical future when you're perfect, and that's so true. I try to live by that, but I need to remind myself every now and then.

03-25-2006, 12:47 PM	#63 (permalink)
ash Upright Location: texas	well, i have struggled with this issue for a long time. i used to be a model and i think models worry about image too much. i quit knowing that i contributed to the stigma of being that "perfect woman". i shaved my head and now dont wear any makeup. i think im protesting i have always lived knowing i am myself and being that way is perfect. __________________ "somepeoplesay"