roachboy

but a corporation is not a person, ustwo.
the analogy is worthless.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

Not completely worthless. Destruction or theft of corporate property (or the disruption of revenues) is not a victimless crime. It could lead to job loss, reduction in wages, and the destabilization of retirement portfolios. (Pardon the indulgence of the last item.)

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mixedmedia

Granted, there may be a literal distinction between 'peaceful' and 'non-violent' but I don't really see the relevance of the question as it pertains to protest.

The terms and ideas that people like Thoreau, Gandhi and King used and prescribed were the terms non-violent resistance and civil disobedience. And both of them, literally, often involve the breaking of laws and the disruption of the daily processes of power-holding entities - in a way that does not require physical force.

So someone explain to me, if you support the rights of people to protest against powerful systems and entities, how this protest falls outside of the realm of what's expected during a protest without resorting to your opinion on the views of the organization involved or Lucifer's inconvenience. Both of which should be completely irrelevant to you being that your true objection is to the breaking of laws and the disruption of trade.

Can anyone do that for me?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ubertuber

Maybe this is the crux of it - I don't support anyone's right to break the law simply because they think of their action as protest.

On the other hand, I support people's right to choose the consequences of their actions - if breaking the law and getting attention accomplishes a greater good, power to them. I guess I just don't see the blanket term "protest" as being a very convincing justification for breaking the law and trespassing on the rights/property of others. These things have to be weighed individually. Not only that, but the entire point of it is that we, as individuals, have to come to terms with which side occupies the moral highground in each case. Protest is a way of forcing the evaluation.

As far as this specific action and the wording floating around the thread, Greenpeace's action was legitimate, illegal, and, in my opinion non-violent but not peaceful. They intended to do economic harm to Lucifer's company. Having the intent to do harm is pretty much the antithesis of peaceful. It's also the accepted and accustomed mode of protest. However peaceful and non-violent are two different terms that, used accurately, denote different things. I'm just trying to be deliberate and precise in my use of terminology.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Baraka_Guru

I agree with you, ubertuber. And I would add that I would support the breaking of laws if the protest itself serves to draw attention to greater injustices. I think this is what Greenpeace is aiming to do here. The damages of what they are protesting are viewed as outweighing the damages of what they are doing to protest it. I would be fine with this if the protest actually achieves something. If it is ineffective, they will need to change tactics. I don't know what they do to measure their success, nor do I know if it can even be measured, but this is the only way I could support what they're doing--assuming that I support the idea of moving way from coal and nuclear and towards sustainable and renewable sources.

I guess it all depends on this question: Does Greenpeace effect change?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

This statement doesn't change what I said above. It's just another opinion of what constitutes "peaceful". Again (and again, and again), when they say peaceful, they mean non-violent. Non one was hurt, and it's clear their intent was to avoid any physical injury of the crew, therefore they stuck to their definition of peaceful just fine.

I like the use of "commandeering" and "another [man's] property. It was very dramatic.
It's not like burning coal has any negative effects.
I don't particularly care if you believe in the reality of global warming or not, but to pretend like burning coal has no negative effects is quite disconnected from reality. Unless you meant something else, in which case please elaborate.
Looks like GP was the ones doing the spanking. Just sayin.
Agreed.

If I were given the opportunity to honestly bring about real positive change that involved me peacefully breaking a law that didn't hurt anyone, I'd do it without a moment's hesitation. If laws get in the way of justice, they are meaningless words.

debaser

Look, the obvious solution is to chain yourself into the passengers seat of the GP members cars after painting them with slogans like "burn more coal", and "fission this, bitches!".

I mean, it's the same thing, right?

__________________

Lucifer

rofl

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I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
- Job 30:29

1123, 6536, 5321

Willravel

Honestly? You're absolutely right. And I'd defend you to them so far as your right to protest just as vigorously. I'd again remind people that there are laws out there and that breaking them has obvious repercussions, but really, the right to free speech is viscerally rooted in the ability to stand up for yourself without fear of those in power saying, "No, you can't say that." You can say that.

Ustwo

Whats the repercussion for piracy again?

BTW: Remember people Sep 19th is talk like a pirate day!

Most small business are corporations, at least any one that isn't run by an idiot.

Mine is for one thing.

So I guess its ok to screw with someones hotdog stand because 'its not a person'.

Really you should leave business discussions to the people who have them instead of the people who hate them.

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Elphaba

Ustwo, perhaps you could start another thread regarding idiot business owners and those that hate them.

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mixedmedia

Following the logic of this statement, since you are neither a member of Greenpeace nor any other left-leaning protest outfit and you do in fact seem to 'hate' them - wouldn't that mean that you should be precluded from the discussion on this thread? Doubly-like?

And we all know that we aren't talking about a hot dog stand here. This has been a real problem with this thread from the first response. Disingenuousness.

We all know that global warming is a huge issue in the world today. Much bigger than whaling ever was. And I dare to purport that if the same exact event were to have happened in China or India, the discussion about it would have taken a much different route amongst most of the posters here.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

I'm both. Booyah.

Jinn

How did everyone miss this? Or was it just ignored?

There is nothing hypocritical about acknowledging a problem, supporting solution(s) to that problem AND YET still recognizing that it's a necessary evil for the time being.

I'd be careful with that hypocrite word, lest it be reflected upon yourself.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

When your actions contradict your beliefs, you're a hypocrite.
If I'm being hypocritical about something, I expect people will come out and say something instead of alluding to a hypothetical hypocrisy. Have I done anything hypocritical? Or was that just huffing and puffing?

Frosstbyte

Is this to say that we're all very biased towards the US/Canada and are only upset because we think that we're better than China and India and hate how much they pollute compared to how much we pollute and we'd be happy to see their rights invaded by protesters? I don't think that's really true amongst those of us who feel like these protesters went overboard in this protest action.

mixedmedia

No, I think just the opposite. I think US/Canadian organizations such as Greenpeace are shown more bias than a similar organization might in a country such as China or India. Nice try, though.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Frosstbyte

Nice try to what? Understand what you were saying? You made an ambiguous comment which I wanted to clarify.

mixedmedia

Sorry, I didn't think it was that ambiguous. I didn't realize someone's first reaction to it would be that I was saying they thought they were better than people in China or India. But, eh...the internet.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Molested

Why don't people start protesting the protesters? I would like to see the Average-Joe chain himself to the Rainbow Warrior, tag it, interfere with it's routes, obstruct the possibility of the ship to move in any way - and all just before they've planned to protest something valuable, according to their own beliefs.

I for instance don't understand why protesters can't see how their actions are failing dramatically. They are sharing a vision and try to bring their message through protesting measures - all thinking about their own selfish agendas, yes - it's selfish.

How can it not be considered selfish when people are joining hand in creating a utopia for themselves, ignoring the fact that there are just as many, or more, people sharing the opposite view on matters? Why do they think that bringing a point through actions who consistently make other people's lives more difficult, fine? Where is the justification on the matter when it's so obvious that the majority of their actions are there for their personal gains, you know - like the thing they are protesting are for other's personal gains?

I support some of their agendas, some I do not, and most of their actions are just lame attempts on bringing up discussions which always tend to turn into just like what this thread is already.

Excuse the English, 'tis my secondary language.

larsthegeek

As has been alluded to previously, the label placed on any political or social action depends on where the labeler lies in the context of the action. From one vantage point, a protester looks like an activist, striving to bring about a better something. From another vantage point, the protester is a terrorist.

Which vantage point is correct? Likely both, and neither. Friends, issues are rarely black-and-white. Each party involved views it from their own personal context and works within their context with the tools they have. Everyone has an agenda, fewer people realize it and even fewer are truthful enough to admit it.

Molested, I would defend your ability to 'protest the protesters'. Protest is a form of discussion, and discussion is what keeps a civilization working in the direction of being 'civil'. It is when the protests stop happening that a society should worry.

Willravel

Honestly? Turnabout is fair play, even as far as this protester is concerned.
You know what molested means, right? Just checking...

Molested

I know exactly what it means. Are you clouding your definition of the term because of the most prominent, and negative, one?

Either way, I'm just checking. ^^

MSD

Got to run to school now
note to self: continue at the top of the third page (post 201)
I understand them; I've been one. I understand that taking drastic action is sometimes justifiable, and I also understand that taking drastic action can result in harm or death to the actor. Piracy in sovereign waters is one of those actions that can result in serious harm, and those engaging in piracy as a form of protest ought to expect that the target of such action is legally permitted to use lethal force against the perpetrators.
Announcing that you are a member of Greenpeace does not mean that you are a member. A group intent on destroying or stealing cargo can easily announce that they are with Greenpeace, then board the ship and act in a way highly inconsistent with Greenpeace's philosophy after putting the crew at ease. Boarding a ship is an act of piracy regardless of intent. If I were on board a ship that was subjected to an act of piracy after intent to peacefully protest was announced, I would assume a worst case scenario was occurring and respond accordingly.

The tanker crew is more likely to become violent if we see with 20/20 hindsight that it was, in fact, Greenpeace taking action. It is not safe to assume that a group that claims to be Greenpeace commits an act of piracy in violation of international law is going to be completely nonviolent after boarding the ship just because they said so.

The second part is a flawed analogy. Greenpeace clothing is not available exclusively to members. There is no way to stop a terrorist group from joining Greenpeace, loading up on Greenpeace merchandise, disguising themselves as peaceful protesters, and carrying out a terrorist attack, just like insurgents in Iraq who steal Iraqi police uniforms or join the Iraqi police with the intent of carrying out attacks in disguise.
Boarding a ship in sovereign waters is piracy, even if the group claims to be a peaceful one. Boarding a ship with materials that can be used as weapons is threatening. I do not consider piracy a means of peaceful protest and don't understand how anyone could defend it as such unless they are allowing their preconceived notions of Greenpeace to cloud their judgment.
Whichever of them came over the rail first, plus any that were stupid enough to try after the first. If they got on board and stopped immediately when I pointed a gun at them, I would demand that they drop anything that could be used as a weapon, and detain them until they could be turned over to the proper authorities.

Willravel

Fortunately, we're not talking about piracy in this case, as I've pointed out a few times, most notably in post #70 where I point out that the boarding of the vessel has to be "committed for private ends". We can both plainly see that there is no private profit for GreenPeace from this. They're spending time and money in order to bring about public change. What this means is that there isn't legally permitted lethal force. Had they consciously murdered any of the peaceful protesters, they should be charged with first degree and sent to prison.
Again, as I've said several times, never in history has anyone said they were representing GreenPeace and been lying.
So you're giving into the fear-mongering "there's a terrorist out to get you" mentality? That's too bad.

ubertuber

If they meant profit, they would have written profit into the definition of piracy. This is a legal document, and the language has an accordingly precise definition. I'd interpret this to say that private ends means whatever gain (financial, emotional, ideological, etc.) the actor is after.

We won't know for sure until there is a test in court, and as The_Jazz has pointed out, people's unwillingness to force that test isn't because they think they will lose as much as it is because the battle isn't strategically appropriate.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Willravel

So you think if they meant profit, they would have said profit. Shouldn't your postulation be held to the same standard? If they meant emotional gain, they would have written emotional gain.

Frosstbyte

He's putting forth the idea that they used a legal term of art which is best argued by attorneys for both parties and decided by a judge and jury, as opposed to laymen throwing around other ideas. You would probably be SHOCKED at how different some legal definitions are compared to their lay definitions. And a lot of us in this thread feel like we could make a strong argument for why these sort of actions would fall within a LEGAL definition of "private ends" even if it doesn't fit into the coffee shop definition.

mixedmedia

Believe it or not, I have no preconceived notions of Greenpeace. But there has been no shortage of preconceived notions of them being volleyed around from a negative standpoint on this thread.

I have preconceived notions about the practice of political protest. By whomever and wherever it may be taking place. That has been the sole point of departure from my very first post.

And what about anything I have said disagrees with this method of ending the protest? I was commenting on the remarks made earlier in this thread, yours included, that said these people should have been shot.

But I also made the comment, somewhere along the line, that I thought a lot of remarks made on this thread were disingenuous (for the most part, I was referring to the shooting remarks) and that I thought they had a fairly drastic warping effect on what could have possibly been a less heated discussion on the whole.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ubertuber

No Will, it shouldn't. That is not what I wrote. What I wrote is that the formulation "private ends" includes all kinds of gain, not just profit.

Re-reading my post, that is exactly what I wrote.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Willravel

I read you condemning my interpretation and then you giving your own, neither are expressly written out. I saw you calling me black, then you being a kettle.

Frosstbyte

I think the thrust of his point is that it's a term of art whose definition is pure speculation until a court rules on it. What the law says is perfectly inclusive of his opinion of what it means and your opinion of what it means and, I think, a good argument could be made to a court for either to prevail. Your definition is much more specific and exclusive, which is why he (and I) take issue with it but I don't think there was any snarky pot-kettle stuff gonig on.

MSD

I don't consider boarding a ship while carrying materials that could be used as weapons evidence of nonviolent intent. They claimed that they would engage in nonviolent protest and then took actions that can easily perceived as having potentially violent intent. That discrepancy is a warning sign that something may be seriously wrong, and it is reasonable to believe that such a drastic deviation from the announced action can be an indication tha a terrorist attack is imminent or in progress.
The general assumption made by supporters of this Greenpeace action is that because Greenpeace is known for taking drastic action to interfere with corporate action but taking care to avoid harming individuals, that the action is legitimate. I agree that legitimate Greenpeace members are unlikely to harm others, but I maintain my position that this was an act of piracy and that it is appropriate to react as if it were a worst case scenario.

Maybe I went overboard by saying that they should simply be shot on sight, but I would not fault crew members for having reacted as if it were a worst case scenario when a peaceful action was announced and non-peaceful actions were taken.

DumberThanPaint

Come on people. Let's use formalistic definitions here.

Piracy
Applying the appropriate, formalistic definitions, there's no way you can construe the actions as piracy. There was no threat of harm nor was there an attempt to take property.

Once again, applying formalistic definitions, that the Greenpeace members were not engaging in an act of terrorism. While it's clear that Greenpeace uses its actions and communications to try to reach a larger audience, the lack of violence or a threat of violence puts this action in a different category.

Q. Do you know what you call (in most places) shooting a trespasser who does not threaten you with serious bodily harm?
A. (attempted) homicide

Why do so many here try to poison the well by making foregone legal conclusions with inappropriate word choice?

The real issue is here is why hasn't GP learned to wage a PR war after all its years of existence? Pissing off some shipping workers in a low-profile stunt like this does nothing to hinder the coal industry, does nothing to reach the target audience, and subjects GP members to unjustifiable risks. I mean, even if the MSM got wind of this story and ran with it, how many people would understand or identify with this act of protest? In this net-roots world we live in, couldn't their money and skills be put to better use in the battle against environmental damage? Isn't it a sign that this well intentioned organization is turning into a dinosaur, a relic?

Ustwo

I don't think its hard to wiggle Greenpeace into that, and btw thats the legal definition, not Websters.

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DumberThanPaint

That's great, that you can copy/paste US Code, but the problem is without looking how the Courts interpret that law, you are making aimless conjecture.

The DOJ under Ashcroft had tried to take down Greenpeace before in a similar case, and unsurprisingly they didn't even attempt to use the code you cited. Why not? Because the government had to admit Greenpeace's activity was peaceful. Free speech always trumps overbroad laws (which the cited code would certainly be if hostility were to include non-violent protest, it might also strike out for vagueness). And as to the disposition of the case, I'll let you read up on that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailormongering
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0520-12.htm

Willravel

I guess that makes paint really smart?

Good post.

Ustwo

Actually it just shows hes snide.

For fun while he googles he can google greenpeace and piracy, apparently the Seafarers' union is calling for stiffer charges on greenpeace for this incident and several law makers are calling it piracy as well.

Boy thats going to be a tough one for you lefties. You have a union on one side and a bunch of hippies on the other.

Anyways, I'm sure that these kids efforts will stop both coal and nuclear power usage. I do hope they enjoy their criminal records when they try to get those real jobs in a few years when they realize being a radical activist doesn't pay well for most.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

I'm sorry to say so, but that's like me calling someone a lefty.
We'll have to wait and see if that pans out. For now, it's not been resolved.
I'm a radical leftist with two real jobs. While I'm not going to illegally board a ship, I do actively protest with other radical activists who also have jobs. The funny thing, though, is that those kids in GreenPeace will be able to look back and say "I did my best to be part of the solution".

ubertuber

DumberThanPaint: you may have missed this post from Lucifer which deals with the definition of piracy which comes from what is likely to be the most relevant source. We haven't settled on what this means, or how a court would find in actual fact, but I'd say the pertaining code is more relevant than law.com.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam