Family conflict and alcohol . . . need advice - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

raveneye · 01-02-2006, 08:05 PM

I'm stressed out, pretty much in tears half the time, can't sleep to save my life because I'm worried about my brother and our family . . . .

We were celebrating his birthday, we played guitar, sang, the kids played together, had a long nice talk about everything. His wife before dinner had a couple martinis, then a couple glasses of wine during dinner, and then was drinking vodka shots after dinner for about an hour or so. She's about 5'5' and medium build, and doesn't eat much.

There was a disagreement about some minor thing, no big deal, as I was talking with my bro, and then suddenly his wife just went completely absolutely barking mad. She was completely out of control, in a rage, accusing us of all sorts of things, calling me a fucking idiot, fucking lunatic, fucking out of my mind, putting her face right up against mine, nose to nose, and screeching at me, dragging up stuff from the past 10 years about stuff she's been wanting to tell us, making outrageous accusations, saying essentially we were out to take advantage of her, my parents like my wife more than they like her, all sorts of ridiculous stuff that was just out of the blue. It was night and day, one second normal and the next just completely insane, a monster. If she had been holding something sharp I would have been out the door and down the block . . . .

My brother just sort of looked glum the whole time and stared at his feet, didn't do anything except say things like "Honey, you don't need to say that, isn't that a bit of an exaggeration?"

It was traumatic, my wife and I left, she in tears, with our 5 year old daughter who came with her two cousins out of the bedroom to see what was going on. I did not lose my temper at all, I was just basically in shock, tried to reason with her for about 10 minutes then gave up and just said I'm sorry we're leaving now. We explained to our daughter that she was sick.

This is not the first time she's done something like this. I have heard from mutual friends that she's done this before to them, and my dad said it happened to him too recently, and he had to push her away, and she called and apologized the next day. I hadn't thought much about it until now.

But here's the deal: I was very upset and concerned about it and went to my dad to talk about it, saying that she seems to be an alcoholic tyrant and he's covering for her, and I wonder how often this happens and I'm worried about their kids etc.

Then the next thing I heard is that my dad talked to my brother about what I said and my brother was absolutely infuriated and told my dad that "everything" I said about that night was a "complete lie". I'm shocked that my brother is calling me a liar, for the first time in my life.

Our parents now don't know who to believe. They don't want to be in the middle of this and don't want to hear any more about it, say it's something between the four of us and it's up to us to resolve it. They're not taking sides either way. I think that's understandable, but eventually wrong because it amounts to tiptoeing around her and the problem.

Was I in the wrong for bringing this up with my dad (result being: everybody in the family now knows about it)? Maybe I should just apologize to my brother and forget about it; it's his problem 99% of the time, not mine (we live on opposite coasts). But it could escalate and somebody could get physically hurt.

I guess the question is: keep tiptoeing around the problem and maybe keep some kind of relationship with my brother, or not back down, and risk breaking the family apart? Or something in between? Has anybody gone thru this, I need a reality check.

Cynthetiq · 01-02-2006, 08:58 PM

I don't let friends nor family treat me like crap. I have relationships on my terms that allow for compromise and mutual respect.

Period.

I give respect and I expect it in return.

streak_56 · 01-02-2006, 09:44 PM

Tiptoeing is not going to solve the problem. I would bring it up when all of you are together and just the adults. You, your wife, him and his wife. Just say that she was being disrespectful and that you and your wife would like to know where the problem or solution lies. If she blows up again, I would focus on talking to your brother and expain that if she (his wife) continues to do this then you might have to be less familar with them. If both of them cannot be respectful then there's no point in you being there. They have no room in your life if they can't respect you maybe in time he'll understand how you feel and try to mend things. I wish you the best of luck and hope this doesn't happen again.

raeanna74 · 01-03-2006, 06:23 AM

Wow a tough spot. It almost sounds like your brother is playing the part of a victim in an abusive relationship. You will be the most help to him if you can draw him away in a situation where the two of you can talk uninterrupted. If you can arrange this without notifying his wife that you are talking to him the better for him. I'm not advocating deceit but if she is verbally abusive then you will be putting your brother in a tough spot by allowing her to know that you are even talking to him. Try to get him to open up to you about the situation.

I understand your thinking about going to your dad but in this situation it draws your parents in when they aren't needed. This is a problem that your brother needs to deal with and he won't appreciate outside interference AT THIS TIME.

You do need to talk to your brother. Explain to him that you are concerned for him. Leave out any offence that you or your family may have taken from her tyraid. This just showed you that there is a problem in his family. Do not threaten to take any action at this point. You could withhold from family gatherings in which alcohol is a factor but otherwise I don't believe you should act now.

Your goal at this point should be to let your brother know that 1. You see a problem and this is not normal behavior. 2. You want to help. 3. You are not judging. 4. You will not tell bring your parents into this situation anymore.

You could perhaps even apologize for talking to your Dad since he may be resentful of it and will be defensive because of it. Do no even bring up the fact that he is lying to your parents. A victims first response is to deny any problem or even defend their partner. You need to get him out of his defensive posture before you will make any progress.

Don't expect that he will ask you for help now. BUT the fact that he is aware that you respect him and are concerned about his situation (and that of his children especially) then perhaps when things get worse he will know who to turn to.

In the meantime keep your eye on those children. Maybe even offer to babysit them or have them over to visit their cousin once in a while on their own. It will give you a could handle on the pulse of that household and their safety.

JustJess · 01-03-2006, 06:37 AM

^^ Yes, I have to agree with this general approach.
Also, it seems pretty likely, just from what you've said, that she is an alcoholic, not just an emotional abuser. That would explain the drinking, the mood swing, the apologies, his reaction, etc.

She needs help, and quick - for the sake of your brother and his children, as well as herself. Talking to him alone is your best bet - he's not going to react normally around her.

BigBen · 01-03-2006, 06:54 AM

The reply that your brother gave your father and then your father relayed the info back to you was like, what, fourth hand information now?

You need to clear up the lines of communication.

You also need to look at the situation objectively, and are posting the thread so that we may shed light on the situation. Remember, I don't know you or the situation, only what you have told me.... Think of me like a really handsome and brilliant internal dialogue:

1. Your sister-in-law has a drinking problem. She is not an alcoholic until she admits it and goes to get help, blah blah blah. You don't need me to tell you about Alcoholics Anonymous. What she did was not really her, and you should forget about whatever it is that she said. People say some pretty mean shit when they are drunk, and this is a great example.

2. Your brother is not "Playing the victim" here, he IS THE VICTIM. Think about that for a second. He was looking at his shoes and going absolutely passive in the situation. Does this sound like a guy who is encountering this for the first time? Not to me, your inner dialogue. You know him better than anyone else, so think about the situation he is in; the shame, anger, fear, hurt aren't just for the female gender. Women are not the only ones that can be abused in a heterosexual relationship... What is worse is that society does not have ANY support for men who are abused. We are supposed to be the stronger sex, and when we aren't, everyone turns their backs.

3. You didn't post the things she said, and you don't have to. That would take forever, and we don't need the gritty details. What you need to do is explain to your children what alcohol is, what it does, and what happens when people drink too much. Saying she is "sick" is a good start, but I want you to talk to your kids. They probably freaked out, seeing you and your wife like that.

Finally, I would find a moment where you can talk to her and she is sober. Not confrontational, but you need to explain that she does not get a free pass on what she said to you. She will probably appologize, but be ready for the opposite too.
I cannot stress how important it is to have the conversation when she is SOBER. You don't need anyone else there, not your brother or anyone... She hurt you, and you need to clear it up. She should, but can't because of her drinking problem. You need to offer your help, but don't condescend.

Keep up the good fight. Help your brother, and talk to him, not fourth hand communication. Face-to-face.

lurkette · 01-03-2006, 07:47 AM

I agree that you must talk to your brother, and probably to his wife as well, about the problem. Be prepared for denials, accusations, defensiveness, etc., but just stick to your guns and your main points:

1. You love them and want what is best for them, and are concerned about this behavior.
2. You have to take care of yourself and your family, and it is not healthy for your daughter (or their kids!) to be exposed to this.
3. She needs help and you'll do whatever it takes to get her that help.

If this kind of thing continues, you have to be prepared to make her (and her husband as well, unfortunately) feel the consequences of her actions, even if that means cutting off contact. Make it clear that this is not because you don't love them - quite the contrary! - but that you are not willing to put up with it. Best of luck!

flstf · 01-03-2006, 09:07 AM

Your brother's wife obviously has a drinking problem. Some people get mellow when they drink and others get vicious. I recall years ago when Johnny Carson quit drinking and explained that he was one of those people that just get mean when they drink so he stopped altogether.

Your brother is probably always going to side with his wife so there is not much you can do there. Probably the best you can do is avoid them in the future and hope she and/or your brother wises up someday. When you do have to see them, I would refuse to argue with her since it is like throwing gasoline on the fire. There is also probably not much your parents can do so it is best to not put them in the middle except to explain your concerns as you already have.

Balaniki · 01-03-2006, 10:14 AM

Having been in a similar situation I'll give you my $.02 (FWIW). My mother had a drinking problem. She wasn't aggressive or anything - but when she had been drinking too much it made her stupid. I hated being around her when she was like that. I hated HER for being like that. And I hated myself for hating my mother.

When I lived at home I would mark the bottles (she drank in secret) - and not in an obvious way so she would KNOW I was watching her.

After I moved out it got worse. I finally got to the point where I went over there early in the day (she drank only at night) and told my parents that I wouldn't be coming over much anymore. She was an adult - she could drink herself silly every night if she wanted to - I wasn't going to try to stop her anymore.

But I couldn't stand what it was doing to ME. And since I couldn't be sure when she was or was not drinking I would simply limit my visits. And if I came over and she was drinking I would turn right around and leave.

I think knowing that her drinking was hurting someone OTHER than herself made a big impression on my mom. She still drank - but not nearly as much.

You can't make a person stop doing something unless some part of them WANTS to stop. You can talk to them until you are blue in the face but unless they WANT to listen it won't do much good.

Talk to your brother. Explain that you don't want to put your children through another incident like that night. Explain that you think he and his wife have problems and they should get help - but YOUR kids come first and their well-being is more important than your relationship with your brother and SIL.

Talk to your parents. Explain that you don't want to cause problems in the family but you have to do what's right for YOUR family. Explain that there may be times when you pack up and leave a family gathering because you think your SIL is drinking too much and you don't want to be there if (when) another incident happens.

To this day I'm uncomfortable being around someone who's drunk - even if it's a total stranger.

dksuddeth · 01-03-2006, 10:24 AM

I recommend a sit down with your brother. he obviously knows theres a problem. tell him that his wife has a problem and 'if he's willing', you'll help him get her help. Unless he's under threat of divorce, he should be willing to introduce an intervention and get his wife the help she needs.

flamingdog · 01-03-2006, 10:35 AM

To be quite honest, this sums it up for me:

Quote:

We explained to our daughter that she was sick.

And you were damn fucking right. She has a problem. Your brother's reaction to her outburst, and to you later telling your dad about it shows that he is cowed and submissive, a typical reaction, in my experience, to an abusive partner. And unfortunately, there isn't very much you can do to intervene. He - and only he - can pick himself up and get himself out of this situation he's in. And he's not going to appreciate you trying to pry him away from her.

You did nothing wrong in telling your parents about the situation... and frankly, I find the suggestion that they want nothing to do with their son's possible problems a bit distasteful. He might be all grown up and married and so on, but he's still their son.

A sad, sad situation, to be certain, but there's not much you can do, so stop beating yourself up.

Rodney · 01-03-2006, 11:15 AM

Your sister-in-law is a mean drunk and an alcoholic. She probably wouldn't say any of those things when she's sober... but she won't stop drinking,and she won't admit that she should; I'm surprised she even apologized to your father. Your brother is an enabler. He's probably thinking along these lines: "If I do this and I do that and I avoid the other thing to keep her from getting mad, it will all be all right." Of course it never does, but he probably thinks he can control the situation, and that it's all up to him.

She's using him, he's enabling her. Users and enablers tend to find each other: the person who needs someone to lean on -- without giving anything back -- and the person who thinks he _should_ be leaned on, that he should take care of everything. They've been like this since they met each other; getting your brother to attack the problem is like getting him to set a dynamite charge on the very foundation of their relationship.

This quote says a lot:

Quote:

Our parents now don't know who to believe. They don't want to be in the middle of this and don't want to hear any more about it, say it's something between the four of us and it's up to us to resolve it. They're not taking sides either way. I think that's understandable, but eventually wrong because it amounts to tiptoeing around her and the problem.

Of course they know there's a problem. They're ducking out on the issue because they fear losing access to their grandchildren if they do something and your sister-in-law wigs out. Your brother in law is ducking out on the problem because he fears what his wife might do if he tries.

So the question is: can you help them? Can you help them if they're afraid to see that help is needed? Will you help them by carrying on the charade? (That, I know: no.)

But he is your brother. Meet him alone. Tell him how you feel. See what he says. Hopefully he'll unbend and at least talk honestly about what's going on. Offer the kind of help you're comfortable with: which, I think would involve giving him, his wife, and his kids any support needed to straighten out the situation. If he doesn't want help or want to try, your family may have to withdraw from social situations with his family.

What they say about drunks is that everybody has a bottom to hit before they straighten out; some have a fairly high bottom, some don't. As a person, your sister-in-law hasn't hit bottom yet, and her husband isn't allowing her to do so and take ultimate responsibility for her actions. As an enabler, your brother doesn't hit bottom until he realizes that all his excusing and compensating isn't going to make their life normal. And you start that by refusing to socialize. Contact, sure. Socializing, no.

Tell your parents, too. Full-family gatherings are out. Tell them there is a problem, and you believe that they know it, too. Oh, everyone will try to make you the bad guy for a while; but keep it up, and keep offering help at every instance. At some point she'll self-destruct to the point where at least your parents will come on board. And maybe then there['ll be critical mass to convince your brother.

rlynnm · 01-03-2006, 01:12 PM

In you not saying anything, that perpetuates her rudeness towards you and everyone else that obviously has become involved. I think there are ways to address the situation without being disrespectful yourself.

Talking to your parents seems okay as long as you aren't looking for them to choose sides. If it's used as a point of ventilation, I don't see any harm in it, but I can understand where they would rather not be involved. No parent should have to choose between any of their children.

I won't brand her an alcoholic but if her drinking has a tendency to turn her into a monster, she herself should excercise some tact and control. Talk to your brother about this. Talking to her may only make her more defensive and aggressive about the situation, or she might feel like she's being personally attacked.

raveneye · 01-04-2006, 05:33 AM

Thanks everyone for the wisdom, I've read every word.

I called my brother last night (we're on separate coasts), and talked for 2.5 hours. Basically nothing was resolved, and it appears he and his wife are separating from the rest of the family. I told him I loved him and I think that is tragic for all of us including our kids who are inseparable. He was very businesslike and most of the conversation consisted of me defending myself and my wife from an endless array of accusations. He says he's informing the rest of the family face-to-face sometime in the next few days -- that's my sister and parents.

I'm basically stunned and depressed, didn't sleep all night nor did my wife. I hope there's a good chance he'll have a change of heart, but at this point things will likely never be the same again . . . just the thought of my daughter losing her cousins whom she worships is unbearable.

I told him I would always be there for him and if he ever needed anything to please don't hesitate to ask, and wrote the same in an email, saying again that I love him.

I don't know what else to do.

maleficent · 01-04-2006, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raveneye

I told him I would always be there for him and if he ever needed anything to please don't hesitate to ask, and wrote the same in an email, saying again that I love him.

I don't know what else to do.

You've done all you can do... He's not admitting there's a problem... Until he does... not a lot you can do... Eventually he will see it, and it will be good for him to know that you are in his corner... Drop him an email occassionally or a card to let him know he's not forgotten.

Rodney · 01-04-2006, 08:18 AM

I agree; you've done all you can. He's in full denial mode. And the fact that he and his wife are retreating from the family, despite claiming its all your fault, shows that he knows that the fiction can't be maintained if you all are in close contact. I don't mean he actually thinks to himself "I am maintaining a fiction." But he knows deep down. And after the incidents of the last few weeks, he's understanding that his wife can't act normally around the extended family. So, in his "I've got make everything okay for my wife" mindset, that means the extended family has to go.

In your phone conversation, you may feel that you were trying to connect and he was on the offensive. But in actuality, that businesslike, aggresive behavior came out because, as the voice of reason, you are actually a threat to his unhealthy (I think I can make that judgment) relationship. If he stops to analyze what's going on, he can't justify continuing as an enabler. And if he can't continue enabling, he has to disrupt his whole relationship with his wife. And he's not ready to do that. Therefore, he has to attack everything you say, do, or have done in this matter.

I don't claim you're perfect, but you _have_ tried to be a good brother. He will figure it out, eventually; things will get so bad he'll have to. Just continue to be there when he needs you.

dksuddeth · 01-04-2006, 10:37 AM

you have done all you can. eventually your brother will 'wake up' and come to terms with having to make a decision. The best that you can do is continue to let your brother know that you will be there for him. When he comes back, that will be the beginning of his recovery, and yours.

rlynnm · 01-05-2006, 10:46 AM

I commend you getting the gusto to speak to him. I know it must have been hard. Hell I have trouble talking to my relatives about less serious concerns.

It is sad that he opted to just pull away from the family rather than help his wife through her own issues. Like everyone else has said, you've done all you can do.

01-02-2006, 08:05 PM	#1 (permalink)
raveneye Born Against	Family conflict and alcohol . . . need advice I'm stressed out, pretty much in tears half the time, can't sleep to save my life because I'm worried about my brother and our family . . . . We were celebrating his birthday, we played guitar, sang, the kids played together, had a long nice talk about everything. His wife before dinner had a couple martinis, then a couple glasses of wine during dinner, and then was drinking vodka shots after dinner for about an hour or so. She's about 5'5' and medium build, and doesn't eat much. There was a disagreement about some minor thing, no big deal, as I was talking with my bro, and then suddenly his wife just went completely absolutely barking mad. She was completely out of control, in a rage, accusing us of all sorts of things, calling me a fucking idiot, fucking lunatic, fucking out of my mind, putting her face right up against mine, nose to nose, and screeching at me, dragging up stuff from the past 10 years about stuff she's been wanting to tell us, making outrageous accusations, saying essentially we were out to take advantage of her, my parents like my wife more than they like her, all sorts of ridiculous stuff that was just out of the blue. It was night and day, one second normal and the next just completely insane, a monster. If she had been holding something sharp I would have been out the door and down the block . . . . My brother just sort of looked glum the whole time and stared at his feet, didn't do anything except say things like "Honey, you don't need to say that, isn't that a bit of an exaggeration?" It was traumatic, my wife and I left, she in tears, with our 5 year old daughter who came with her two cousins out of the bedroom to see what was going on. I did not lose my temper at all, I was just basically in shock, tried to reason with her for about 10 minutes then gave up and just said I'm sorry we're leaving now. We explained to our daughter that she was sick. This is not the first time she's done something like this. I have heard from mutual friends that she's done this before to them, and my dad said it happened to him too recently, and he had to push her away, and she called and apologized the next day. I hadn't thought much about it until now. But here's the deal: I was very upset and concerned about it and went to my dad to talk about it, saying that she seems to be an alcoholic tyrant and he's covering for her, and I wonder how often this happens and I'm worried about their kids etc. Then the next thing I heard is that my dad talked to my brother about what I said and my brother was absolutely infuriated and told my dad that "everything" I said about that night was a "complete lie". I'm shocked that my brother is calling me a liar, for the first time in my life. Our parents now don't know who to believe. They don't want to be in the middle of this and don't want to hear any more about it, say it's something between the four of us and it's up to us to resolve it. They're not taking sides either way. I think that's understandable, but eventually wrong because it amounts to tiptoeing around her and the problem. Was I in the wrong for bringing this up with my dad (result being: everybody in the family now knows about it)? Maybe I should just apologize to my brother and forget about it; it's his problem 99% of the time, not mine (we live on opposite coasts). But it could escalate and somebody could get physically hurt. I guess the question is: keep tiptoeing around the problem and maybe keep some kind of relationship with my brother, or not back down, and risk breaking the family apart? Or something in between? Has anybody gone thru this, I need a reality check.

01-02-2006, 08:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I don't let friends nor family treat me like crap. I have relationships on my terms that allow for compromise and mutual respect. Period. I give respect and I expect it in return. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

01-03-2006, 06:23 AM	#4 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Wow a tough spot. It almost sounds like your brother is playing the part of a victim in an abusive relationship. You will be the most help to him if you can draw him away in a situation where the two of you can talk uninterrupted. If you can arrange this without notifying his wife that you are talking to him the better for him. I'm not advocating deceit but if she is verbally abusive then you will be putting your brother in a tough spot by allowing her to know that you are even talking to him. Try to get him to open up to you about the situation. I understand your thinking about going to your dad but in this situation it draws your parents in when they aren't needed. This is a problem that your brother needs to deal with and he won't appreciate outside interference AT THIS TIME. You do need to talk to your brother. Explain to him that you are concerned for him. Leave out any offence that you or your family may have taken from her tyraid. This just showed you that there is a problem in his family. Do not threaten to take any action at this point. You could withhold from family gatherings in which alcohol is a factor but otherwise I don't believe you should act now. Your goal at this point should be to let your brother know that 1. You see a problem and this is not normal behavior. 2. You want to help. 3. You are not judging. 4. You will not tell bring your parents into this situation anymore. You could perhaps even apologize for talking to your Dad since he may be resentful of it and will be defensive because of it. Do no even bring up the fact that he is lying to your parents. A victims first response is to deny any problem or even defend their partner. You need to get him out of his defensive posture before you will make any progress. Don't expect that he will ask you for help now. BUT the fact that he is aware that you respect him and are concerned about his situation (and that of his children especially) then perhaps when things get worse he will know who to turn to. In the meantime keep your eye on those children. Maybe even offer to babysit them or have them over to visit their cousin once in a while on their own. It will give you a could handle on the pulse of that household and their safety. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

01-03-2006, 06:37 AM	#5 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	^^ Yes, I have to agree with this general approach. Also, it seems pretty likely, just from what you've said, that she is an alcoholic, not just an emotional abuser. That would explain the drinking, the mood swing, the apologies, his reaction, etc. She needs help, and quick - for the sake of your brother and his children, as well as herself. Talking to him alone is your best bet - he's not going to react normally around her. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

01-03-2006, 06:54 AM	#6 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	The reply that your brother gave your father and then your father relayed the info back to you was like, what, fourth hand information now? You need to clear up the lines of communication. You also need to look at the situation objectively, and are posting the thread so that we may shed light on the situation. Remember, I don't know you or the situation, only what you have told me.... Think of me like a really handsome and brilliant internal dialogue: 1. Your sister-in-law has a drinking problem. She is not an alcoholic until she admits it and goes to get help, blah blah blah. You don't need me to tell you about Alcoholics Anonymous. What she did was not really her, and you should forget about whatever it is that she said. People say some pretty mean shit when they are drunk, and this is a great example. 2. Your brother is not "Playing the victim" here, he IS THE VICTIM. Think about that for a second. He was looking at his shoes and going absolutely passive in the situation. Does this sound like a guy who is encountering this for the first time? Not to me, your inner dialogue. You know him better than anyone else, so think about the situation he is in; the shame, anger, fear, hurt aren't just for the female gender. Women are not the only ones that can be abused in a heterosexual relationship... What is worse is that society does not have ANY support for men who are abused. We are supposed to be the stronger sex, and when we aren't, everyone turns their backs. 3. You didn't post the things she said, and you don't have to. That would take forever, and we don't need the gritty details. What you need to do is explain to your children what alcohol is, what it does, and what happens when people drink too much. Saying she is "sick" is a good start, but I want you to talk to your kids. They probably freaked out, seeing you and your wife like that. Finally, I would find a moment where you can talk to her and she is sober. Not confrontational, but you need to explain that she does not get a free pass on what she said to you. She will probably appologize, but be ready for the opposite too. I cannot stress how important it is to have the conversation when she is SOBER. You don't need anyone else there, not your brother or anyone... She hurt you, and you need to clear it up. She should, but can't because of her drinking problem. You need to offer your help, but don't condescend. Keep up the good fight. Help your brother, and talk to him, not fourth hand communication. Face-to-face. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

01-02-2006, 09:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
streak_56 who ever said streaking was a bad thing? Location: Calgary	Tiptoeing is not going to solve the problem. I would bring it up when all of you are together and just the adults. You, your wife, him and his wife. Just say that she was being disrespectful and that you and your wife would like to know where the problem or solution lies. If she blows up again, I would focus on talking to your brother and expain that if she (his wife) continues to do this then you might have to be less familar with them. If both of them cannot be respectful then there's no point in you being there. They have no room in your life if they can't respect you maybe in time he'll understand how you feel and try to mend things. I wish you the best of luck and hope this doesn't happen again.

01-03-2006, 07:47 AM	#7 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I agree that you must talk to your brother, and probably to his wife as well, about the problem. Be prepared for denials, accusations, defensiveness, etc., but just stick to your guns and your main points: 1. You love them and want what is best for them, and are concerned about this behavior. 2. You have to take care of yourself and your family, and it is not healthy for your daughter (or their kids!) to be exposed to this. 3. She needs help and you'll do whatever it takes to get her that help. If this kind of thing continues, you have to be prepared to make her (and her husband as well, unfortunately) feel the consequences of her actions, even if that means cutting off contact. Make it clear that this is not because you don't love them - quite the contrary! - but that you are not willing to put up with it. Best of luck! __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

01-03-2006, 09:07 AM	#8 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Your brother's wife obviously has a drinking problem. Some people get mellow when they drink and others get vicious. I recall years ago when Johnny Carson quit drinking and explained that he was one of those people that just get mean when they drink so he stopped altogether. Your brother is probably always going to side with his wife so there is not much you can do there. Probably the best you can do is avoid them in the future and hope she and/or your brother wises up someday. When you do have to see them, I would refuse to argue with her since it is like throwing gasoline on the fire. There is also probably not much your parents can do so it is best to not put them in the middle except to explain your concerns as you already have.

01-03-2006, 10:14 AM	#9 (permalink)
Balaniki Upright Location: WI	Having been in a similar situation I'll give you my $.02 (FWIW). My mother had a drinking problem. She wasn't aggressive or anything - but when she had been drinking too much it made her stupid. I hated being around her when she was like that. I hated HER for being like that. And I hated myself for hating my mother. When I lived at home I would mark the bottles (she drank in secret) - and not in an obvious way so she would KNOW I was watching her. After I moved out it got worse. I finally got to the point where I went over there early in the day (she drank only at night) and told my parents that I wouldn't be coming over much anymore. She was an adult - she could drink herself silly every night if she wanted to - I wasn't going to try to stop her anymore. But I couldn't stand what it was doing to ME. And since I couldn't be sure when she was or was not drinking I would simply limit my visits. And if I came over and she was drinking I would turn right around and leave. I think knowing that her drinking was hurting someone OTHER than herself made a big impression on my mom. She still drank - but not nearly as much. You can't make a person stop doing something unless some part of them WANTS to stop. You can talk to them until you are blue in the face but unless they WANT to listen it won't do much good. Talk to your brother. Explain that you don't want to put your children through another incident like that night. Explain that you think he and his wife have problems and they should get help - but YOUR kids come first and their well-being is more important than your relationship with your brother and SIL. Talk to your parents. Explain that you don't want to cause problems in the family but you have to do what's right for YOUR family. Explain that there may be times when you pack up and leave a family gathering because you think your SIL is drinking too much and you don't want to be there if (when) another incident happens. To this day I'm uncomfortable being around someone who's drunk - even if it's a total stranger. __________________ Balaniki "Everyone should have something to believe in. I believe you should keep your beliefs to yourself."

01-03-2006, 10:24 AM	#10 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	I recommend a sit down with your brother. he obviously knows theres a problem. tell him that his wife has a problem and 'if he's willing', you'll help him get her help. Unless he's under threat of divorce, he should be willing to introduce an intervention and get his wife the help she needs. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

01-03-2006, 01:12 PM	#13 (permalink)
rlynnm Psycho Location: so cal	In you not saying anything, that perpetuates her rudeness towards you and everyone else that obviously has become involved. I think there are ways to address the situation without being disrespectful yourself. Talking to your parents seems okay as long as you aren't looking for them to choose sides. If it's used as a point of ventilation, I don't see any harm in it, but I can understand where they would rather not be involved. No parent should have to choose between any of their children. I won't brand her an alcoholic but if her drinking has a tendency to turn her into a monster, she herself should excercise some tact and control. Talk to your brother about this. Talking to her may only make her more defensive and aggressive about the situation, or she might feel like she's being personally attacked. __________________ The hardest thing is to be honest with yourself, especially if that means completely redefining the world you've come to know. Don't look too hard, I'm right in front of you.

01-04-2006, 05:33 AM	#14 (permalink)
raveneye Born Against	Thanks everyone for the wisdom, I've read every word. I called my brother last night (we're on separate coasts), and talked for 2.5 hours. Basically nothing was resolved, and it appears he and his wife are separating from the rest of the family. I told him I loved him and I think that is tragic for all of us including our kids who are inseparable. He was very businesslike and most of the conversation consisted of me defending myself and my wife from an endless array of accusations. He says he's informing the rest of the family face-to-face sometime in the next few days -- that's my sister and parents. I'm basically stunned and depressed, didn't sleep all night nor did my wife. I hope there's a good chance he'll have a change of heart, but at this point things will likely never be the same again . . . just the thought of my daughter losing her cousins whom she worships is unbearable. I told him I would always be there for him and if he ever needed anything to please don't hesitate to ask, and wrote the same in an email, saying again that I love him. I don't know what else to do.

01-04-2006, 08:18 AM	#16 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	I agree; you've done all you can. He's in full denial mode. And the fact that he and his wife are retreating from the family, despite claiming its all your fault, shows that he knows that the fiction can't be maintained if you all are in close contact. I don't mean he actually thinks to himself "I am maintaining a fiction." But he knows deep down. And after the incidents of the last few weeks, he's understanding that his wife can't act normally around the extended family. So, in his "I've got make everything okay for my wife" mindset, that means the extended family has to go. In your phone conversation, you may feel that you were trying to connect and he was on the offensive. But in actuality, that businesslike, aggresive behavior came out because, as the voice of reason, you are actually a threat to his unhealthy (I think I can make that judgment) relationship. If he stops to analyze what's going on, he can't justify continuing as an enabler. And if he can't continue enabling, he has to disrupt his whole relationship with his wife. And he's not ready to do that. Therefore, he has to attack everything you say, do, or have done in this matter. I don't claim you're perfect, but you _have_ tried to be a good brother. He will figure it out, eventually; things will get so bad he'll have to. Just continue to be there when he needs you.

01-04-2006, 10:37 AM	#17 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	you have done all you can. eventually your brother will 'wake up' and come to terms with having to make a decision. The best that you can do is continue to let your brother know that you will be there for him. When he comes back, that will be the beginning of his recovery, and yours. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

01-05-2006, 10:46 AM	#18 (permalink)
rlynnm Psycho Location: so cal	I commend you getting the gusto to speak to him. I know it must have been hard. Hell I have trouble talking to my relatives about less serious concerns. It is sad that he opted to just pull away from the family rather than help his wife through her own issues. Like everyone else has said, you've done all you can do. __________________ The hardest thing is to be honest with yourself, especially if that means completely redefining the world you've come to know. Don't look too hard, I'm right in front of you.