News Reports 12 Miners Survive - They Got it Wrong.

[JumpinJesus]

Last night I went to bed after listening to television news reports of a miracle in West Virginia. No matter which of the 24-hour news channels I turned to, there was grandstanding. Rita Cosby on MSNBC kept talking about her mascara smearing because she was in tears. Geraldo Rivera on Fox News could be heard screaming out to the family members in joy about how great the news was, chasing down people to get their immediate, joyous reactions. Other nameless reporters spent hours in typical fashion waxing poetic and miraculous about small-town cohesiveness and the spirit of America, etc.

Here was the early story: http://www.nbc5.com/news/5832803/detail.html

'They're Alive'
12 Miners Found Alive; 1 Dead

POSTED: 2:26 am CST January 4, 2006
UPDATED: 8:47 am CST January 4, 2006

TALLMANSVILLE, W.Va. --

This story has been updated to reflect that the initial reports of 12 survivors were inaccurate. Click here for that updated story.

The word that keeps coming up is "miracles."

There's jubilation in Tallmansville, W.Va., after 12 of 13 miners caught in an explosion in a coal mine were found alive.

Bells at a nearby church where relatives had been gathering rang as family members ran out screaming in joy. Some yelled: "They're alive!"

"Miracles happen in West Virginia and today we got one," said Charlotte Weaver, the wife of one of the trapped men.

Weaver said she was afraid "a lot of times," but she never gave up.

There were hugs and tears among the crowd outside the Sago Baptist Church. A group of celebrants began singing the hymn "How Great Thou Art."

'Believe In Miracles'

Earlier Tuesday evening, rescue crews found an unidentified body about 700 feet from a mine car that was used by the missing workers.

A Red Cross volunteer who was inside the Sago Baptist Church, located just across from the mine, said family members were "passing out and crying" after West Virginia Gov. Joe Manchin announced that rescue workers had found the body 11,200 feet into the Sago mine.

Manchin held out hope Tuesday night, telling reporters "the miracle is still alive" and urging Americans to "believe in miracles."

AP Image
Friends and family of miners trapped underground wait for news outside a church in Tallmansville, W. Va.

Manchin said the miners had an "average of 20-plus years" experience, so they would have taken shelter in any safe spot to await rescue.

Bush: Americans Are Praying

President George W. Bush said Tuesday that people all across America were praying for the miners.

The president told reporters he called Gov. Manchin to say the federal government stands ready to help the rescue effort in any way possible.

Bush praised what he called the "outpouring of compassion" West Virginians have shown the miners' families.

"May God bless those who are trapped below the Earth," Bush said.

Mine Cited 208 Times Last Year

The mine where the workers were trapped was cited 208 times for alleged safety violations in 2005. It had just 68 citations in 2004.

Federal regulators' allegations against the Sago mine included failure to dilute coal dust, which can lead to explosions, and failure to properly operate and maintain machinery. According to the U.S. Labor Department, 96 of the citations were considered "significant and substantial" by inspectors.

ICG officials say the Labor Department could have closed the mine if it had been deemed unsafe.

Then, I wake up this morning a little late, turn on the news, only to see this: http://www.nbc5.com/news/5812063/det...72&dppid=65192

Devastating Twist: 12 Miners Dead
Families Celebrate For Hours Before Learning Of Deaths

UPDATED: 11:08 am CST January 4, 2006

TALLMANSVILLE, W.Va. -- As the only survivor remains hospitalized, the last of a dozen bodies has been pulled from the Sago coal mine in West Virginia.

The bodies were found more than 42 hours after an explosion trapped the miners.

There was a tragic miscommunication around midnight, when word spread that one miner had died and the dozen others were alive. Three hours later, the families were told only one man survived.

The bodies were found together behind a curtain-like barrier they set up to keep out carbon monoxide gas. It doesn't appear the explosion killed them.

The lone survivor is identified as Randal McCloy, a 27-year-old resident of Simpson, W.Va.. His condition is listed as critical. McCloy is in critical condition in a Morgantown, West Va., hospital, where he's under sedation and on a ventilator.

A doctor said McCloy was unconscious but moaning when he was taken from the Upshur County mine to Ruby Memorial Hospital. He said McCloy is responding to stimuli.

McCloy's father-in-law said he was "still devastated" when he found out McCloy was the only survivor, saying his heart goes out to the other families.

Ben Hatfield, CEO of Sago Mine owner International Coal Group, told reporters Wednesday morning that initial reports from a rescue team indicated there were "multiple survivors." He said that turned out to wrong, blaming a "miscommunication."

Hatfield said the rumor of survivors "spread like wildfire" but noted that mine officials had never confirmed it.

Relatives had broken out in screams of joy when word of a rescue came from West Virginia's governor. That was replaced by abject sorrow and anger.

The son of one of the 12 miners found dead said there was "no apology" and "no nothing" when officials told them there relatives were dead.

The rescuers found a barricade and determined that the miners had donned their breathing masks. It's not clear how long they lived.

The company news conference announcing the miscommunication didn't occur until after 3 a.m. -- more than three hours after families had started celebrating the misconception that their loved ones were alive.

Witnesses said after people were given the bad news about the others, one relative became enraged and lunged at an official. The incident happened at a Baptist church where relatives had gathered. Family members had to wrestle the aggrieved man to the ground.

Federal officials are expressing sorrow over the deaths and are promising a full investigation.

Before the incorrect announcement of the 12 survivors, rescuers had found one body Tuesday

So, how did this happen? How did the media get this so wrong? Naturally, the media is taking absolutely no blame, instead stating that it was a miscommunication from the rescue workers. The 24-hour news channels seem to have an ongoing malfunction of reporting stories long before confirmation is made. In the race to one-up each other, rumors are often reported as fact with the small disclaimer: Unconfirmed Reports Indicate....

What angers me the most about this was watching the genuine joy on the faces of the family members after being led in what could be described as a revival by the visiting television reporters only to be informed later that all but one of the miners did not survive. Many of these families were told that the miners survived by overzealous reporters anxious to get tear-filled interviews. They wasted no time having their "Miracle in the Mountain State" graphics with snazzy sound-effects greeting us after each commercial break.

Watching Fox News earlier, one of the flock of reporters stated that now was not the time to place blame on why the miners were reported alive.

Will the media ever take responsibility for blunders like this? I don't know how much time I've spent watching television news reporters backpedal on stories they've been reporting wrong all along.

[maleficent]

i'm not excusing it.. but I've spent enough time around newspapers to know that deadlines have to be met... (press deadlines that is - when you might have 5 newspapers using the same presses you have a specific window to get your paper printed )you blow a deadline you hemorrage cash pretty quickly and that cash is difficult to recover from...

At the witching hour -- the newspapers had the story - the miners were reported to be alive... From all accounts i've read-- the fact that they were all alive was given when the vital signs were still be taken - three hours later it came back that they were all dead..

I don't beleive that the media can be blamed for that three hour communication breakdown.

The media can be blamed for jumping the gun.. the news - both printed and broadcast are all about getting the story first... you get the story last -- well ratings go down, circulation drops... and money is lost --

[xepherys]

I prefer accurate news to quick news. Frankly, despite the need for the know in this Information Age, I can handle waiting up to, say... 24 hours for news that doesn't directly concern me if it means hearing it correctly. I guess I'm in the minority. *sigh*

[JumpinJesus]

Regarding the print media: I have a bit more sympathy for them since they do have a deadline to meet before printing, so for them to get it wrong is a bit more understandable.

My main focus is on the live television news reports that went on for hours without any confirmation whatsoever that the miners had survived. I switched between CNN, MSNBC, and Fox and not one of those channels spoke with any officials during their hours of reporting.

What's worse is that Fox News JUST ran a promo that went "As brave rescuers work around the clock to rescue the trapped miners in the Sago Mine, stay with Fox News for live coverage of the rescue efforts. Fox News!"

[Eweser]

I don't know anything about the news industry, and I don't think I'd be very good in it because I'd rather be late and right than early and so wrong, as is the case here.

I too went to bed with a smile on my face thinking that they had found 12 out of the 13 alive, even though I felt saddened for the one man's family and friends. Then before I left for work my husband told me that he had been watching the news and saw that they had it wrong. My heart just fell. I can't even begin to imagine how the families and friends there must feel. My thoughts go out to all of them.

[Poppinjay]

The credo we always worked under was not "get it first", but "get it right, first".

In this case, it was the recovery team relaying information back that was heard by a family member who then started cell phoning everybody.

I hate it when mainstream media reacts like this, but I'm not surprised, given the confusing situation.

If you want to hand out some blame, give it to the mining comapny. Within 20 minutes of the news spreading, they knew the story was different, but they sat on it for three hours.

[maleficent]

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

My main focus is on the live television news reports that went on for hours without any confirmation whatsoever that the miners had survived. I switched between CNN, MSNBC, and Fox and not one of those channels spoke with any officials during their hours of reporting.

again, I'm not excusing it... I'm just feeling argumentative today...

did th e officials make themselves available to the press? How forthcoming were they with information? I'd imagine not very - given all the citations that this mine has - they'd want to do all they could to put this in the very best possible light...

If the media isn't given anything to work with - then is faced with 24 hour coverage... they have to do something -- heaven forbid they have dead air.. the advertisers wouldn't like that...

the media -- as we know - is all about the almighty dollar..

[Charlatan]

From what I heard, the media received the information directly from the president of the mining company. I don't think you can blame the media on this... they just reported what they were told by the official sources.

Now if they had heard it from someone who heard it form someone... that would be a different story.

[BigBen]

Will the spread of misinformation overshadow the fact that 12 people lost their lives in an industrial accident?

Why do we allow the story to spin like this?


12 people died, because the energy industry does not put enough emphasis on worker safety.

I don't give a fuck if the media got the story wrong at the start. I want answers from the CEO on his workplace safety standards, and how this industrial accident could have been prevented, and how it could be prevented in the future. I don't want to hear "It is a dangeous job, they knew the risks..."

[maleficent]

Originally Posted by BigBen

I don't give a fuck if the media got the story wrong at the start. I want answers from the CEO on his workplace safety standards, and how this industrial accident could have been prevented, and how it could be prevented in the future. I don't want to hear "It is a dangeous job, they knew the risks..."

Exactly... On Monday when this story was still breaking news - -one of the talking heads on the tube was listing the number of infractions this mine had - and how close to 100 of them were serious... but in practically the same breath.. she basically said - oh that's normal though..

How could that possibly be normal?

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by maleficent

How could that possibly be normal?

I grew up in Pennsylvania mining country. In fact, I actually went to high school with one of the 9 miners from the Pennsylvania mine flood accident a few years ago.

Trust me. Those figures are very normal.
Right...no. Normal...most definately.

[JumpinJesus]

BigBen,

You make a strong point. Where I was going with this was the devastation to the families after hearing that the miners had been found alive only to be told 3 hours later that they in fact did not survive.

For me, that's a huge story because these families had waited and waited and waited for any news at all. Finally, they hear that 12 of the 13 people survived. Then, 3 hours later, the rug is pulled out from under them.

In order for this to have an impact for me, I focus on the media reports and how the families will now have to cope with what happened.

I didn't intend to ignore the fact that 12 people died due to apparent safety violations because I feel that is a different story that will be told in time.

For this thread, I wanted to focus on how the media shapes our perceptions and their responsibility to check their stories.



Charlatan,

The more I watch this story unfold, the more I'm learning. Apparently, someone phoned into the church and told someone there that the miners had been found alive. The church began to ring the bells, and the media then ran with it. The media didn't wait for any confirmation. I remember watching split screens for 2 hours last night. One screen showed celebrations and interviews with families and news reporters giving their commentary. The other screen showed an empty press conference room.

[Charlatan]

I'll have to take your word on it as the only news I've had was a radio report this morning. I'm sure the story has developed over time... and it doesn't surprise me that Cable News jumps the gun in the race to be first.

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

The other screen showed an empty press conference room.

Hmmmm. Somehow, I see that as rather key in this whole fiasco. Almost...prophetic. Certainly pathetic.

[BigBen]

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

...Where I was going with this was the devastation to the families after hearing that the miners had been found alive only to be told 3 hours later that they in fact did not survive.

For me, that's a huge story because these families had waited and waited and waited for any news at all. Finally, they hear that 12 of the 13 people survived. Then, 3 hours later, the rug is pulled out from under them.

In order for this to have an impact for me, I focus on the media reports and how the families will now have to cope with what happened....

For this thread, I wanted to focus on how the media shapes our perceptions and their responsibility to check their stories.

...

I appreciate that. I have been on the recieving end of false (and terrible) information:

True Story: I was woken by banging at the door;
Ben wake up.

What is it?

Guy was in a car accident.

Is he okay?

Nope. He's gone...

(Shock, horror, sickness) The whole barracks is dying.

(Guy walks into the room) What are you guys fucking moaning about?

(Shock, disbelief, wave of relief) WE THOUGHT YOU WERE DEAD!!!

And yes, we hunted down the source of misinformation and sorted it out. We were so glad Guy was alive. Having it go the other way would be unbelievable.

[BigBen]

Someone decided that the world needed 24 hours of news every day. Then, not being able to find that much, newsstations are pressed into these tactics out of necessity.

All one must do is to withstand an interview and then watch it on TV in its edited form to truly understand the effect the media has on the public.

I have been noted to reply "No Comment" more than once. At least they can't fuck that up.

[Justsomeguy]

The only thing that can be reasoned from this is that the media is sick mother fuckers. And the people that caused the miscommunication to the families are worthless, sick mother fuckers.

Piss on their deadline and their ratings. Another example of the fucking media exploiting people and screwing up while doing it.

Wanted to add, has anyone noticed how quite a few of the news channels dropped this story fairly quickly after it was evident they were part of the fuck up. And other news stations keep blaming other people or saying how we just need to focus on the people that died and not the mistake. Maybe the mining company did mess up but they didn't force fox news to broadcast this shit. Fuckers need to take some damn responsibility and stop being such pathetic assholes.

[Carno]

Hahahaha, man that sucks for their families!

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by Carn

Hahahaha, man that sucks for their families!

Yes. Yes...it does.

[Ustwo]

Whats sad is that without having seen any of this I can see how Heraldo would have covered it in my minds eye.

God I can't stand him.

[kutulu]

How how long till people on the internet are trashing these families when they sue the mining company.

"I'm sick of this entitlement crap"
"They knew the risks"

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Carn

Hahahaha, man that sucks for their families!

um, what's funny about families losing their loved ones? What a uncanny statment to have made.

as to the OP... they are trying to be sensational... and sometimes people want good news, even if it's not true, chances are their source is the same that said there was WMD's in Iraq.....

I hope that this will highlight the lack of safety in many workplaces... I hope a lawsuit will come of this and shed further light on the corporations taking human life for granted one too many times, someone has to be responsible for those deaths....

sweetpea

[kutulu]

Well according to the brilliant libertarians we don't need safety regulations in the workplace.

However, we should wait and see if what happens is related to the safety violations or if it was a freak occurance before we blame the company.

[maleficent]

Originally Posted by kutulu

However, we should wait and see if what happens is related to the safety violations or if it was a freak occurance before we blame the company.

This company already has racked up a ton of safety violations.. but according to most sources - that's the norm.. I guess if they all operated up to code - -whatever that code is -it would make the cost of whatever they are mining outrageously expensive...

[crow_daw]

Yeah this is definitely tragic.

I tend to side with Big Ben on this one insomuch that I think the devastating loss here should be the real story over the media's incompetence. However, I realized that that is not the purpose of this thread.

What can I say? The media is the media, they never cease to amaze, but what's really sad is that I've heard that the media could become the primary factor in shaping children's sociopolitical beliefs within fifteen or twenty years, eclipsing even their parents.

God help us all.

[kutulu]

Originally Posted by maleficent

This company already has racked up a ton of safety violations.. but according to most sources - that's the norm.. I guess if they all operated up to code - -whatever that code is -it would make the cost of whatever they are mining outrageously expensive...

I'm aware that it is considered the norm, it doesn't make it right. Perhaps this could trigger a re-inspection into MSHA's safety standards. If there are standards that offer minimal safety upgrades and are difficult to comply with perhaps they could be removed. However, the law is the law. We as citizens don't have the option to disobey the law at will, pay a pittance of a fine and keep on violating. We are talking about regulations that keep people safe so that they can provide for their family. Sure, the individual can get another job but overall someone needs to get that job done so we can have the products that come from mining.

As far as outrageously expensive goes, that's up for debate. I assume they are making profit, correct? The investors may have to settle for the 50' yacht instead of the 55' yacht so that the peons who make their money can be safe. My heart breaks for them.

[kutulu]

Another thing, safety (and environmental) regulations aren't just about "buy this expensive thing" a lot of accident prevention is proper trtaining and work practices. It is "do it exactly like this every time" People are lazy and they get a false sense of security after doing a task 1000 times so they cut corners.

One of the things that the mine was cited for last year was failure to properly dilute dust, which can lead to explosions. That is a work practice and the blame falls primarily on the workers that shortcut and the managers that facilitate it.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/02/min....ap/index.html

CHARLESTON, West Virginia (AP) -- A coal mine where 13 miners were trapped after an explosion Monday was cited 208 times over alleged safety violations in 2005, up from just 68 citations the year before.

Federal regulators' allegations against the Sago Mine included failure to dilute coal dust, which can lead to explosions, and failure to properly operate and maintain machinery, according to the U.S. Labor Department.

Ninety-six of the citations were considered "significant and substantial" by inspectors.

An official with the International Coal Group, which has owned the mine since March, said the Labor Department could have closed the mine if it were deemed unsafe.

"We think that we were operating a safe mine. We have no real clue about what triggered this explosion or whatever happened today," ICG Senior Vice President Gene Kitts said.

Records from the Labor Department's Mine Safety and Health Administration also show that Sago Mine has had 42 injuries since 2000 that resulted in lost work time.

Its injury rate per hours worked in 2004, the most recent year for such data, was nearly three times the national rate for a mine of its type. Eight injuries were reported that year.

The state Office of Miners' Health Safety & Training, which inspects underground mines four times each year, issued 144 notices of violation at Sago last year, compared to 74 in 2004, officials said.

The miners were trapped 260 feet below ground after an explosion that may have been sparked by lightning. Rescuers went in to find them Monday after waiting almost 12 agonizing hours for dangerous gases to clear. (Full story)

Gov. Joe Manchin, when asked about the mine's safety record, said he had not been thoroughly briefed about it.

"We will do a total and thorough evaluation. And whatever has happened, or whatever caused this to happen, will be remedied," he said. "Right now, our main concern is getting these miners out safe."

I like how the exec passes the blame to the state, saying they could have shut them down. As if it is the state's responsibility to run a safe workplace.

I put the other part in italics because that pissed me off. It was shoddy reporting to claim that their injury rate was 3x the average but then reveal that they only had 8 injuries in 2004.

[frogza]

I hate watching the idiot reporters saying things like, "At this point we don't know how the fire started or if anyone was inside, or what is inside the building" over and over for the whole five minute interruption of the regularly scheduled program. I can't help but think "You interupted what I was doing to tell me that you don't know anything?"

I would love to see some news anchor come on and say, "You may have noticed that many other channels were having a feeding frenzy trying to beat each other to the bite. We on the other hand were busy being responsible and were gathering correct information. Now that the facts are known, here is the story...."

It's interesting though that in both nature and the media, during the frenzy the sharks rarely bite each other.

[flat5]

"ha ha"

Hey! The ignore list works!

[flamingdog]

People are so quick to jump down the throats of reporters. Hey, get this: They were just doing their jobs.

Edit:

Originally Posted by crow_daw

What can I say? The media is the media, they never cease to amaze, but what's really sad is that I've heard that the media could become the primary factor in shaping children's sociopolitical beliefs within fifteen or twenty years, eclipsing even their parents.

God help us all.

You know, the media can only exist if you consume it(and I'm not singling you out, crow_daw, just your quote illustrates this). It's paid for by advertisers who are fed the viewing/readership figures of the networks.

Just think about how the chain, the cycle, works. If people would stop rampantly buying shit, stop giving their money to the corporations that are paying for this shit in the first place, just for once get off their asses and do something other than consume every media fad that comes along (I'm looking at you, must-watch hyped to the gills bite-size premiering-this-week don't-miss-it everyone's-talking-about-it TV drama), every hour of glaze-eyed TV joy they can get, then maybe these rolling news channels wouldn't have the draw for monolithic companies' advertisements and therefore, wouldn't have the resources and power - or indeed, the need - to report so competitively and so quickly, and thus to get it wrong so often.

Is that worth thinking about? Maybe we're the ones fucking ourselves? Am I off-base?

It just gets my goat when all the news media are doing is feeding our need - our desire - to be salaciously and voyeuristically entertained, then we round on them, just for doing what's asked of them. We need to make our minds up about how our world ought to work, I think.

Never mind, what's on TV?

[shakran]

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

Regarding the print media: I have a bit more sympathy for them since they do have a deadline to meet before printing, so for them to get it wrong is a bit more understandable.

My main focus is on the live television news reports that went on for hours without any confirmation whatsoever that the miners had survived. I switched between CNN, MSNBC, and Fox and not one of those channels spoke with any officials during their hours of reporting.

What's worse is that Fox News JUST ran a promo that went "As brave rescuers work around the clock to rescue the trapped miners in the Sago Mine, stay with Fox News for live coverage of the rescue efforts. Fox News!"

If by "without any confirmation whatsoever" you mean "gee only a representative of the company told everyone the miners were alive and the news reported what he said since that was the best info they had to go on, and it's pretty understandable that the reporters weren't exactly able to go down in the mine and check the men for themselves" then I suppose I agree with you.

[JumpinJesus]

Originally Posted by shakran

If by "without any confirmation whatsoever" you mean "gee only a representative of the company told everyone the miners were alive and the news reported what he said since that was the best info they had to go on, and it's pretty understandable that the reporters weren't exactly able to go down in the mine and check the men for themselves" then I suppose I agree with you.

Shakran,

I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you because I respect your opinion a lot, but here is somewhere where we have to disagree.

From what I've seen, here is how it went down: One of the rescuers radioed up that they had found the miners. The person who received this message then called the Baptist church where the families had congregated with the message that they were all alive. The church then began ringing their bells. The television news reporters went with this. Remember, the mining company made no statement whatsoever for 3 hours. The reports we were hearing on the television news came from church bells ringing after someone called someone reporting what they heard from someone else. The reports we were seeing were based solely on the church bells ringing and the family members celebrating.

Regardless of what journalists would like us to believe, they reported rumors as fact. Not once during this reporting did any media outlet that I watched report that what they heard was unconfirmed.

This is what I meant by "without any confirmation whatsoever."

[shakran]

I dunno. When the governor of the state saying it's true, a congresswoman saying it's true (on air) and relatives who got calls from mine officials saying it's true, that's pretty good confirmation. Unfortunately, all those sources were wrong, but as soon as *that* information came to light the media did their job and reported that as well.

I'm not saying it's not tragic, but the media did its job in this situation. Unfortunately, the mining company (yes, the mining company) initially got the wrong information out, and then failed to retract that information for 2 and a half hours after they knew it was suspect.

[flamingdog]

Is my point not worth answering? Is it not even worth acknowledging? This is what pisses me off about this place.

[JumpinJesus]

Originally Posted by shakran

...

I'm not saying it's not tragic, but the media did its job in this situation. Unfortunately, the mining company (yes, the mining company) initially got the wrong information out, and then failed to retract that information for 2 and a half hours after they knew it was suspect.

This I can agree with. They knew the information being reported was wrong, but said nothing. How they could sit around for that long watching the families celebrating with a false sense of hope baffles me.

[JumpinJesus]

Originally Posted by flamingdog

People are so quick to jump down the throats of reporters. Hey, get this: They were just doing their jobs.

Edit:



You know, the media can only exist if you consume it(and I'm not singling you out, crow_daw, just your quote illustrates this). It's paid for by advertisers who are fed the viewing/readership figures of the networks.

Just think about how the chain, the cycle, works. If people would stop rampantly buying shit, stop giving their money to the corporations that are paying for this shit in the first place, just for once get off their asses and do something other than consume every media fad that comes along (I'm looking at you, must-watch hyped to the gills bite-size premiering-this-week don't-miss-it everyone's-talking-about-it TV drama), every hour of glaze-eyed TV joy they can get, then maybe these rolling news channels wouldn't have the draw for monolithic companies' advertisements and therefore, wouldn't have the resources and power - or indeed, the need - to report so competitively and so quickly, and thus to get it wrong so often.

Is that worth thinking about? Maybe we're the ones fucking ourselves? Am I off-base?

It just gets my goat when all the news media are doing is feeding our need - our desire - to be salaciously and voyeuristically entertained, then we round on them, just for doing what's asked of them. We need to make our minds up about how our world ought to work, I think.

Never mind, what's on TV?

flamingdog,

I wasn't intentionally ignoring your post, I just got caught up with what Shakran said. Sorry about that.

I think you make a good point, but at the same time, I believe that we're only as knowledgable as the media allows us to be. When I use media in this context, I'm referring to all media - print, radio, television, entertainment, etc. It's impossible for those who wish to be informed to inform themselves of all events that may affect them. We rely on the media to do that. We expect that the information we entrust them to will be accurate and truthful. What I've found in some reading that I've done is that media outlets often use other media outlets as sources of their own information. This pretty much explains how they got this story wrong. A lot of times, the thinking is that if one source is reporting it, then they must have checked their facts and the information is accurate. We are not informed that their sources are simply another media outlet whose information may or may not be correct. Then, once a story is repeated enough by numerous outlets, it suddenly becomes "fact."

There is a book I would suggest reading that deals with this kind of lazy journalism. It's titled Don't Believe It.

I understand that the reporters on tv are in a studio reading information that their given, so the blame really shouldn't fall on them, but the reporters in the field (I'm looking at you, Geraldo) are the ones who need to be held responsible. Once that falls down, I'm guessing the blame falls on the producers of news shows who rush information on the air before confirming it's veracity.

Granted, if we didn't watch as much television as we do, then there would be less need to please advertisers and ratings whores. However, I still don't believe that our fascination with television excuses reporting erroneous information under the guise of "scooping" a story.

[shakran]

Originally Posted by flamingdog

Is my point not worth answering? Is it not even worth acknowledging? This is what pisses me off about this place.

Hehe. Calm down. We're slow, but we're-a-gettin' to it


I think you're mostly wrong, but not for the reasons you probably think. And the core of your ideas is correct.

This is gonna be tough to explain all this - people have written very large books on it and I'm gonna try to compress it into a post that won't use all of TFP's bandwidth

Yes, the public wants stories about sex, crime, and scandal (not real scandal, such as congressmen funneling billions of dollars into a pork barrel project run by one of their campaign contributors, but idiotic scandal, like the president fooling around with an intern). They want reality shows. They want Fear Factor.

But they WOULDN'T want this stuff if the media hadn't given it to them in the first place. 10 years ago did you ever say "Shit dude, I wish there was a show on TV where they made people eat bugs for money?"

Now, if you go up to a GOOD journalist, he's not gonna want to give you all that crap. But the owners of his newsroom, generally a large corporation, want to get as many advertising dollars with as little expenditure as possible.

Sex, crime, and fluffscandal are easy and cheap to cover. Got a murder? Send one photographer and maybe a reporter and call it a night. Sex? That's easy too. Political scandal involving illegal funneling of money? Gee that'll take time and research and maybe FOIA lawsuits, and gosh that's just too much money to spend.

So in the first part I object to the characterization of journalists that has happened in this thread. Saying WE deliver crap like you said we do is rather like saying it's the garbage man's fault that the dump stinks.

Now people aren't gonna stop rampantly buying shit unless we convert to true communism, which isn't gonna happen. Journalists aren't gonna stop being forced to do what their owning corporations want until we give the journalists a place to go (constitutionally mandated large public endowment for the news media that CANNOT be touched and who's employees the government has NO control over) where they are not forced to work for a corporation. Again, blaming the journalists for the situation the megacorporations and the government (by allowing megacorporations to become media empires in the first place) has gotten us into is completely disingenuous.

And where you're largely wrong is in your vitriolic comments about the american public. The public ate Edward R Murrow's stuff up. They loved it. Harvest of Shame was a hugely successful documentary. His reports on McCarthy brought that SOB down. The public WANTED that. But even back then his idiot corporation (which at that time was ONLY cbs, not CBS/Viacom/etc) thought the public REALLY wanted interviews with stars, so he was forced to do that crap in order to get permission to do the real journalism. And it's only gone downhill from there.

In other words, if the damn media wouldn't feed you guys bullshit like "what's J-Lo doing?" then you wouldn't consume it. Where you and I differ is that I feel the public would THEN consume REAL news, if we gave it to them.

The BBC is a good example. Americans are no dumber than the Brits. We don't even drive on the wrong side of the road Yet the brits consume the HELL out of the BBC, and are on the whole much more informed about what's going on in their country, and the world, because of it. I think Americans would be the same way, if only they were given the chance.

[flamingdog]

Sorry JJ, Shakran, everyone - having a really rough day here, didn't mean to lash out at you.

Edit: By the way, I'm not levelling this at the American public exclusively. I'm an inclusive misanthropic fuck. I hate everyone equally.

I think I should clarify, since my previous post was a bit of a rant:

No, I'm not saying our fascination with television excuses it, because I think the whole debacle is a complete mess. There is no excuse for any of this, none at all. But on the flipside, looking at the reality of it, you can hardly blame the people on the ground doing what's expected of them, because it's just the way the world works.

When you're in business, you go where the money is, right? The media exists primarily (and nowadays, increasingly exclusively) to skewer you to your seat with news, entertainment, music, whatever, long enough so that you'll get to the advertisements, and so the network gets its payday. That's how the business works.

Currently, the ratings are with the networks that give you what you want. In the case of news, it's getting there first, getting the juiciest stuff before anyone else. In this case, that would be tears of joy from families who've just been informed that their relatives, thought dead, are okay. That's the killer angle. That's what everyone wants to see. As sad as you or I might find it, that's the meat of the story. Joe Blow will hear that the mine failed however many safety inspections and go 'that's a damn shame', but he'll sit down and watch agog if there's some homely soccer mom bawling her guts out live on air because she just heard her son got exploded to death. That's what gets the asses on the seats, and the viewing figures through the roof. Because it's compelling, it's real, it's genuine human drama.

And it's where the money is. If we (as a people) didn't buy into this shit, it wouldn't exist. It's a self-propelling phenomenon.

The same argument exists for every other form of advertisment-funded, or commercial media. Why do you think Reality TV is such a hot property nowadays? People sit down to swallow it like baby birds, and it's cheap as chips to make. That's why TV is in such a dire state. That's why things like Harry Potter movies and books are hyped to the ceiling (which in my opinion explains a large proportion of their popularity, especially among adults - although that's just my axe to grind. ).

Basically, what I'm saying is, it only exists because we let it.

It's fucked up, yes, but it's who we are.

[shakran]

Originally Posted by flamingdog

Basically, what I'm saying is, it only exists because we let it.

It's fucked up, yes, but it's who we are.

We can say that about anything though. Democracy, New York, the Ice Capades. They only exist because we let them.

There's nothing inherently wrong with reality shows or stupid entertainment. It's when crap like that is ALL that's available that things go awry. And reality shows are particularly bad. Ever notice what happened with Big Brother? That show TANKED in the ratings, yet they brought it back. Why? It wasn't much of a risk. All the actors were free. It was shot by untrained tape apes (sorry, they're not photographers ) on cameras that cost a tiny fraction of what a real show's cameras cost - basically, even if the ratings SUCK, as long as they get some, cheap, advertising on it they've paid for the show and then some.

So that's where your premise might get derailed. With the exception of the heavy hitters - survivor, the apprentice, etc, reality shows aren't necessarilly mega-hits, but they're so cheap that they don't need to be, so even if the public for the most part stops watching, they'll still survive.

[flamingdog]

Originally Posted by shakran

Where you and I differ is that I feel the public would THEN consume REAL news, if we gave it to them.

I'm trying to decide if it's just my cynicism that's driving my urge to disagree with that, or anything actually empirical I can point to. My first thought was the latter. Having tried to, I'm now opting for the former. You take this round, Skeletor.

Then again:

Originally Posted by shakran

The BBC is a good example. Americans are no dumber than the Brits. We don't even drive on the wrong side of the road Yet the brits consume the HELL out of the BBC, and are on the whole much more informed about what's going on in their country, and the world, because of it. I think Americans would be the same way, if only they were given the chance.

Actually, the BBC is a good example. Yes, on the whole, we are better informed thanks to that than we might have been, and in a lot of ways, the BBC is a godsend, because if it wasn't for that, we'd basically be in Rupert Murdoch's sweaty little pocket for keeps.

On the other hand, the BBC, because it's funded by the TV licence (called a 'tax' by some) that people all over the world are frequently shocked and appalled to hear about, has to justify its existence. If it doesn't pull in the viewers, its 'public service' remit is questioned by the government, and that funding could be pulled. In recent years, we've seen the BBC launching what amount to commercial sattelite channels, aping the reality and talent show formats so beloved of the commercial networks, and basically dumbing itself down (I hate that phrase) until it barely resembles anything remotely intellectual. It's been forced into competition, and in order to stay afloat, it's basically had to lobotomise itself. It's what people seem to want.

It provides its highbrow content on a digital channel called BBC4 now, which used to get ridiculed for the pitifully low numbers of people tuning in, while its flagship soap opera, EastEnders (an unremittingly grim piece of television) draws in millions, and airs something like four episodes a week, and a two hour omnibus repeat on Sundays. Now, it might be entertaining, but if there's a show on TV that does a better job of exploiting sheer human suffering for entertainment, I'm not sure what it is.

See, at least with a network like PBS, people choose whether to pay for it or not. The BBC, you get no choice. Everyone who has a TV pays. They have to walk a very slender tightrope, and when it comes to giving people what they want, they pretty much exclusively plump for the lowbrow. At least, that much is true for BBC1, the flagship terrestrial channel.