zz0011

At least I don't think even the Grinch would sink this low to, as the headlines read ~ Grinchy remark sends kids home in tears

Wow... how low can a substitute teacher go -- to tell a bunch of 6 year olds such harsh "truth" about SANTA!

Wow...

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maleficent

The article:

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SirLance

One of the parents mailed the dinklehead a copy of Francis Church's famous editorial from the N.Y. Sun, "Yes, Virginia..."

I hope Ms. Grinch finds it enlightening!

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lurkette

Geez, what a self-righteous killjoy.

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Ustwo

Haha what a bitch.

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ngdawg

Regardless of her own views, she had no business doing that. I would have been so all over that school, a hurricane would have been welcome....

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Da Munk

Definitely not a nice thing to do, but unless the school has a policy against telling the truth then there really isn't much they can do to her.

Toaster126

Guess this is what happens when you lie to your kids.

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Gatorade Frost

I suppose they could not hire her again to be a substitute teacher again. That's what I'd do, mainly because of the fact that she didn't use her better judgement in teaching young children.

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Cynthetiq

yeah!

While I sometimes don't feel comfortable perpetuating some things for kids, it's not my place to deviate from the supposed norm of the parents.

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Gilda

When I was still volunteering with the second graders, I got some very solemn faced 7 year olds wanting to know if Santa Claus is real.

Not wanting to lie to such impressionable youth, I thought long and hard, and decided the unvarnished truth was the only proper course of action, harsh though it might be.

"Yes, Santa is real." I told them.

This lady's problem isn't that she told them the truth, her problem is she's such and ignorant twit that she actually seems to believe this "Santa is a myth" nonsense. She's probably a flat earther and kicks puppies for fun.

Sigh. Will we never be rid of this kind of ignorance?

Gilda

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Kadath

Gilda:
My girlfriend insists with a straight face that Santa is real. It makes me uncomfortable; it doesn't seem any different than someone claiming to hear voices. Whimsy is one thing -- delusion is another.

However. It's not up to strangers to disabuse children of the notion of Santa. That's a job for your friends.

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Ustwo

Lots of real things you don't tell to children. She was trying to be self righteous and most likely has some issues in her own life.

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MindBabble

Is it not great to see the kids faces on christmas morning when "santa" has been..... i think a white lie doesnt hurt.

analog

It's funny that in this thread, you're asserting that a school- an institution of learning- is supposed to (for some unknown reason) support and actively engage in perpetuating a mythology... that somehow the children need to be told that this mythology is real, and telling them the truth is bad, and makes you a bad person...

But in this thread... Court rules against Intelligent Design in Dover, PA...

You're all laughing at the idiocy of a group of people trying to get support for the teaching and perpetuation of another mythology (intelligent design) to children.

So I guess now that all the schools are well-funded, the teachers paid a fair wage for their sacrifices, and the next generation of kids is well-educated, not just promoted a year because they're another year older, we have time to fuck around with the truly mundane issues, like this one?

I don't think she has an issue. I think she's just not a fan of corroborating other people's bullshit lies. She taught the history of the real "santa". Since when is school about teaching kids lies, feeding them fantasy as reality? They have no allegiance to the lies you all tell your kids, and no expectation to perpetuate it, either.

The saddest part, to me, is the fact that the lie exists mostly to enchant the young ones into a fantasy, which keeps them "kids" longer. Parents are always doing things to try and prolong the "childhood" of their offspring. If this is so that the young one can enjoy the simple pleasures of being young, that's one thing- but far and above, it's a selfish desire of the parents to keep their kids as "kids", and not allow them to grow up. It is for that reason that I do not support the idea of Santa as a general rule. They're using fantasy to manipulate, not just entertain- so that the kids stay forcibly "innocent" and childish longer.

I had Santa growing up. I had the Easter Bunny, too. They were fun, and my parents knew I enjoyed the fantasy. They didn't do it because it let them hold onto my youth longer. They never did things to selfishly try to stretch my childhood like I see so many parents do; they recognized the progression of time and maturity. Because I was raised well and given all the right guidance, I'm still young at heart. Because that's where youth is truly captured. You can baby your young adults and pre-adolescents to death, treating them like children because you want them to stay children- but raise them truly well, and they'll be young at heart for much, much longer. My mom did the right job- and though I'm 24, she knows I am now, and will always be her little boy in my heart, and I love her for it. Merry Christmas or happy holidays to everyone.

*gets off his soapbox and passes it to the next person*

*gets out a few high-horses as well*

....

*makes note to hug his mom extra tomorrow*

Charlatan

Analog... just be careful you don't trip on that soap box when you get off that high horse...

The point is, it isn't her place to dispel these myths. Just as it isn't a teachers job to dispel the myth of, or encourage the truth of (depending on your point of view) God.

Besides... parents aren't lying. There is a Santa Claus and I am him. Just as every parent of every little kid out there is...

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MooseMan3000

I was going to say the same thing. How would you all feel were your schools to teach that Jesus is the one and only Lord God and Savior, and if you don't repent you would burn in hell? You'd be a little pissed, right? So instead you selectively choose the lies you want your children to hear?

I don't disagree with Santa on principle. I disagree with the hypocrisy of saying that telling the truth about him is a despicable act. Calling the teacher a "bitch" because she was making an effort to, you know, teach.

Furthermore, if you haven't figured out by the time you're six that Santa isn't real, then maybe you deserve to cry a little when you find out. Not a single part of the myth holds up to rational thought. Or is it that we don't want our children to think at all? Is that what the outcry is about? That the teacher is requiring thought from children we think are too young to do so?

Once again: I think Santa is a harmless myth. The myth itself is not the problem. But the idea that we need to perpetuate it as reality is what bothers me. I know people who still try to convince their teenaged and adult children that Santa is real. (Coincidentally - or perhaps not - they're all Catholic. Huh.) They're denying that their children have the ability to think rationally. They're trying to force feed them ideas, rather than helping them become adults. That is the problem.

Psycho Dad

Children enjoying Santa Claus is not as much perpetuating a mythology as it is an age appropriate game of makebelieve that has gone on for many generations. I see no benefit in a teacher full of self-righteous indignation taking it upon herself to take this child out of the game.

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rlynnm

Who are we to claim the right to break family traditions, and to shatter whatever is left of young imaginations? That's a terrible thing to do. Regardless what one believes, there should be no need to impose that on, as she said, impressionable children.

I know many people who believed in santa claus as children, and upon growing up, realized that santa claus was moreso a symbol of christmas--they all seemed fine, even if they believed 'the lie' when they were younger. Why just not allow the children to have hopes and dreams for cryin out loud.

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rlynnm

Couldn't have said it better.

I'd shoot the bitch that sent my kid home crying for THAT reason.

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cyrnel

Well that sucks.

"That chick has issues."

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Daniel_

For those (like me) that had never heard of the "Yes Virginia" leader, it can be seen all over the net - HERE is the first hit Google gave me.

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Ustwo

If a child were to come to me and said 'My daddy says God created the world, is that true? Would I say "no your father is lying to you or that he is wrong"? Of course not. I'd ask the child what they thought, and let tell them they should tell their father what they thought and see what he says.

Some things a child doesn't NEED to know, and little is done that is good by undermining their parents.

Now were that same child now in high school and I was his biology teacher, I still wouldn't take the approach to say your father was wrong. I'd instead say, this is what I think, this is why, and that its the best science has to offer. They could then decide where they want to go with it.

There really is no comparison between forcing teachers to teach intelligent design as a biological theory, and another teacher with issues of her own fucking with the mids of little kids. Now if they tried to force teachers to teach that Santa was real and have it included in text books, then you have a point.

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dlish

the difference between the propogation of the santa claus myth vs religion/god is huge.

religion has differing points of views and justifications, regardless on where you stand on it, whereas we all know the santa myth is total and utter bullshit.

personally, i admire that she had the nerve to speak her mind and not feel pressured by society to be politically correct. however, its a tough way to break it to them.

i think its the parents fault for instilling fabricated stories in their kids minds about an old man living in turkey, and they reaped what they sowed.

i still rekon she should have went all out and told them all the myths about christmas from the mistletoes, to the xmas trees, the presents, santa, reindeers, the pagan origins of xmas, the saturnalia and mysra the sun god, the calender and dates mixup.. ok ill stop now...

anyone thought that maybe she had an alterior motive? maybe shes a jehovas witness or something?

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stevie667

Holy easter bunny, santa!

Thats pretty danged harsh, yeh, kids have to be told sooner or later, but not when they're 6/7! Jeez!

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analog

See... some of you are still saying simply that teachers have some sort of "responsibility" to lie to kids just because their parents do. I am not lying to anyone just because someone else is already lying to them- about religion or santa, or to a young adult or child.

As a teacher, they're supposed to, you know, teach. For all the kids who DON'T celebrate Christmas, education can include learning about the origins of other cultures' traditions. She gave an actual lesson on the roots of the tradition of Christmas, which is an education for all the children, especially those who don't celebrate the holiday. So the teacher can't teach about religious holidays themselves like the birth of Christ, Hanukah, Kwanza, Ramadan- but yet you expect them to uphold a mythology that not everyone in the classes believes in to begin with? The REASON we don't teach religion is BECAUSE not everyone is the same religion. The mythology of Santa Clause also not being universally accepted and celebrated, it should (and does) fall into the same category... and yet you all cry murder at this woman.

It's not my job, a teacher's job, or anyone else's job (literal or figurative) to lie to your kids or teach materials that are not factual. Schools aren't there to make shit up, or perpetuate the shit YOU make up- they're there to give an education. The reality of the origins of "Santa Clause" is factual, and educational. Some people are too blinded by their unwavering bias towards children- and i'm constantly reminded that logic, reasoning, and rational thought are traits that parents just don't seem to posess when it comes to kids.

Poppinjay

May I borrow the soapbox?

Nobody asked her if Santa was real. She was a sub who was basically supposed to fill out the week before the holidays with a recitation of a Christmas story.

Instead she went off on these 6 year olds with a story about Nickolas of Myrna who is DEAD.

As Dlishsguy said, the gap between the Santa story and faith based biology is huge. Reading a fable is not the same as saying that children have to believe in it. It's not the same as insisting to a biology student that they study Genesis instead of a biology text to get their education.

Virtually every truth we teach children in elementary school is a conditional truth to be modified in later years when they can better understand concepts of value and judgement. Age 6 is not the age to be busting out Nickolas of Myrna, the pagan fire tree, or any of that.

Who would be hurt if she just followed the lesson plan?
Who would be hurt if we teach a generation of teenagers that man was created about 4,000 years ago, and woman was created from his rib?

Big difference.

If teachers are to follow the practice of exposing "shit" we "make up", then we can forget about ever teaching them about literary devices such as allegories. Just give them a user's manual for life that explains everything in factual terms, and tell them to consign their imaginations to the dustbin.

These kids are just learning 1+1=2 and this sub decided the lesson for the day would be in calculus. They absolutely do not have the cognetive process in place to understand how to get from Saint Nicholas to modern day allegorical Santa.

For all of you out there who were a secret Santa this year, you don't exist. Stop hogging the oxygen.

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Martian

Here's a new take on it. I don't believe in God and I don't believe in Christmas. I haven't believed in either for a long time. It's not my personal opinion that Jesus Christ was the son of God.

But I believe in Santa Claus.

Modernizing Church's editorial, I believe in Santa Claus as the spirit of giving and the excitement of young children the world over. I believe in the kind words and good intentions and selflessness of the season. This is what Santa Claus embodies as surely as Christ himself embodies the Christian faith. My only misgiving on the matter is that it's tied to a specific date; the world would be a far better place could we carry such sentiment year-round.

On a more practical note, it is not anyone's place as a responsible adult to undermine a child's faith in his or her parents. A young child looks to his mother and father for moral guidance and how to be an adult. By giving a child a reason to doubt his parents, you remove that guidance and leave the child to attempt to develop a moral compass bereft of any aid. Such attempts almost always end very poorly. I've seen the result first hand, in children and associates who have either been bounced around different foster homes or are cared for by parents who don't live up to the responsibility. I'm quite certain that anyone who hasn't lived a completely sheltered life will be able to think of similar examples. So if a child asks me if Santa/God/Allah/Yahweh is real, I will not disagree with what that child has been taught by his mother and father.

I don't personally take issue with religion being taught in school as valid alternatives, what I take issue with is any faith or belief being forced upon students. This woman attempted to foist her own cynicism and disbelief on these children, which could ultimately cause a great deal of harm. It's every bit as bad as if I were to start telling the Catholic children that there is no God.

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feelgood

*Steps on soapbox*

Um...there's a difference between "intelligent design" and "santa claus"

One is theory, the other is myth.

Other than that, the lady is a total bitch and knows better to put down kids that believes in Santa.

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Cynthetiq

So then by that same token, bust ALL the fantasies wide open.

Tell Jimmy he's not going to be the president. Tell Susie she's not every going to be a doctor. Tell the impoverished that they will never achieve more than flipping burgers at the local McDonald's if they are lucky not to become crack addicts. Give up the whole lie of get good grades so that you can get accepted to a good college, go to good college, get good grades so that you can get hired by a good company, get a good job, get a good salary.

There are many near college graduates who are sobering up to the realiity that life isn't as easy as was promised.

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analog

I can't draw any parallels between having aspirations, which is what you're outlining, and being fed fantasy. Fantasy and imagination are not the same thing as having aspirations. You can very effectively and thoroughly exercise a child's imagination and inspire all manner of future wishes of grandeur without making up a magical, fat philanthropist.

I already said I don't mind the fantasy itself, so if anyone thinks I hate Santa or that I'm saying it's a bad idea to have Santa, you're missing my point. My point is that the teacher has no duty to anyone on this planet (or any other) to teach a myth- a myth not univerally accepted to be fact- as fact.

feelgood: the difference between mythology and theology is often only perspective. We teach the ancient greek, roman, egyptian, myan (etc., etc.) gods and beliefs as mythology, but they were certainly a religion in the eyes of those people. An atheist in today's times may well also refer to any religion as "mythology", as pretty much all religions fit into the definition of a mythology, without express belief in them.

I'm also glad we're all sharing the soapbox, it's good to share.

Gilda

In all seriousness, when I've supervised student teachers, what I've told them when teaching 1st-3rd grades is that the best position to take is no position. There's nothing wrong with responding to a question like this with, "I don't know, what do you think?" It's the same response I've suggested on the "Do you believe in God?" question which also comes up a lot.

It isn't necessary to perpetuate a lie, if that's how you think of it, but at the same time you don't have to dispel a harmless fantasy. There's a nice middle ground available.

(Kindergarterners know that Santa exists, 4th graders know he doesn't, and in between from grades 1-3 you get a pretty smooth learning curve; 2nd grade is when it really becomes a raging debate).

Gilda

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Cynthetiq

point well stated.

Girls and prince charming, living happily every after... that's something that IMO is responsible for more divorces and unhappy marriages. How about that one for pure fantasy?

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NoSoup

After giving this some thought, I am having quite a bit of difficulty deciding.

I agree that it was probably not in the teacher's place to tell the children that Santa doesn't exist, but I also agree that it isn't her place as a public teacher to continue to perpetuate the belief in a myth, either.

I suppose looking at it from a different point of view, Christmas is based on religion, and although Santa himself isn't, she may have been doing those children whose families who don't believe in or celebrate Christmas an injustice by saying that on that particular holiday - and only that one - a jolly old fellow slips down your chimney and gives you everything you've always wanted...

As a child, if you were say a Jehovah's Witness (I believe they don't celebrate Christmas) and your public school teacher told your class that Santa DOES come and deliver presents, I could understand the outrage behind the parent of that child as well.

I think she did what was right, and stuck with the facts. Although it may not have pleased everyone - or anyone - it may have been the best thing to do...

Well, I don't think this is quite a parallel either, Cynthetiq. I understand what you are getting at, but even at the most basic of levels this could - in theory, at least - come true for at least a few girls. Chances of it happening are remarkably slim, but the chances of Santa paying you a late night visit with his flying reindeer? None. As far as the hopes and/or dreams of children, I don't think a parallel can be drawn there either - Jimmy certainly could be president, and that impoverished child may yet become something great. That depends on the amount of work that the child is willing put forth, and how much determination that child has to achieve their dream - no matter how badly someone works for it or wants it, Santa (the one in the myth, anyway) won't become real...

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splck

The teacher sounds like your typical childless person that thinks they know everything about what's best when raising kids. Sadly these types don't have a clue. I feel sorry for people like that.

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ngdawg

I think the whole point is, it was not her place to overstep the bounds of either the established lesson plan or the instilled teachings of these kids' families. She's a sub! Even if a child asked her about Santa, she should have deferred the query and left her own agenda out of it entirely. Anyone who has worked in education will tell you, it is simply not a teacher's or staffmember's place to override the personal beliefs of a student and his/her family-should teachers go about telling their charges there's no God, no Jesus, no truth to their religious teachings? Of course not and this is no different. What if you practiced Wicca and a teacher told a class all witches and pagans will burn in hell? That woman should be let go or at the very least, censured and sent to sensitivity training.

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pattycakes

its isnt christmas break anymore its winter break so why are we still even having anything to do with santa? he could fall under religion and everything can be banned....

wow i sound like a grinch now,

as far as her over stepping her bounds, shit everyone over steps their bounds every teacher i ever had has done it at one point or another, i guess they should all be let go.

im all for xmas and sure santa is cool, but when asked i wont lie, nor would i lie to a mental health patient who asked me or someone with altzimers (spelling)

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xepherys

analog-

Here is why you are wrong. What if the substitue was Muslim. She feels uncomfortable "lying" to children about Jesus the Christ. Instead, she explains that Jesus was a prophet (as Muslims believe), but that he was not born in December and he was not the son of God. It's a "myth" and it's her job to "teach" them that?

So religion is fact or theory? For those of faith, their particular brand of faith IS the truth. Certain truths should be left out of impressionable minds altogether. My son will not be required to make a faith decision until he is old enough to do so on his own. This includes a variety of "myths" and "truths".

bloodychill

She should've just recited the stupid poem and left it at that.