TWU sux - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ubertuber · 12-21-2005, 12:11 PM

This is all I've found yet, and I've got to go do some work... I've yet to find anything that contradicts the idea that transit workers get paid 75-110% more than NYPD, FDNY, and DSNY workers in similar positions.

From world socialist web site:

Quote:

Originally Posted by www.wsws.org

The base salary of a bus operator is $42,450, and that of a train operator is $45,167.

From a NY Times article (I lost the link, sorry)

Quote:

According to the MTA, a typical subway conductor makes $53,900 in salary and overtime.

Bus drivers average $62,500.

And motormen $62,440.

The union is demanding annual increases of 8 percent for three years, for the average worker it's a $5,000 raise.

From New York Daily News (yes I know it is an Op/Ed)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Goodwin

The MTA also offered current workers 3% raises in each of three years, on top of average salaries of $48,000.

Charlatan · 12-21-2005, 12:32 PM

I did a quick search and came up with some similar numbers but they were all average salaries rather than entry level salaries.

Regardless... these guys are getting paid a lot. I can see that a motorman might get paid a lot or even a bus driver. This is some skill involved and you are operating some serious machinery (even if you are just pushing buttons).

But a ticket agent or a conductor? Come on.

These guys appear to have a very sweet deal.

Xazy · 12-21-2005, 01:45 PM

LOL, the president of the union (at 4:15 today on tv), explained why they can break the law, they are mentioned Rosa Parks, and then of course mentioned Martin Luther King. I find it sad that they basically are pulling the race card. Then they talk about 'respect' again...

maleficent · 12-21-2005, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

How does anyone live on 25K a year in NYC?
.

roommates or a spouse that works...

j8ear · 12-21-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

How does anyone live on 25K a year in NYC?

They live in Jersey or a tenament in Queens, Brooklyn or the Bronx, and get married or have roommates who also have an income.

MY bro and his g-friend do it.

Anyway, I am totally in favor of this Union, and these striking tactics.

THIS IS exactly what collectivism is all about.

I can't possibly imagine what purpose a Union can have if it is barred from striking by law. What kind of shit is that? I guess when you run the assylum, appoint the judges, and bribe the legislators it is quite likely that you will be the one who holds all the cards, like making it illegal for your opposing union to strike. What a freaking joke.

If this is costing NYC's ecomony billions of dollars every day then it might be in your best interest to come up with an offer the union WILL except.

I wonder really, casting aside this questionable strike illegality nonsense, who really holds all the cards here? Pony up MTA bitches, you've been played and played good.

I fully support the Union on this one. I completely distrust the government, and feel awful for those effected by the strike. Blame and demonize the union, but don't forget they are reacting (and did so by a memeber referendum) to the negotiations which occured with the MTA. Corrupt unaccountable politician types, to be sure. Can't you just see the 'government/management/MTA' negotiator tisk tisking, wagging his little finger, and smirking while he reminds himself that these idiots have no bargaining power because they can't strike. Ouch.

Of cousr if I was the man on this one, I'd fire them all as fast as they could say "one million dollars a day?"

Solidarity TWU,

-bear

j8ear · 12-21-2005, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

roommates or a spouse that works...

darn you Mal....

Ustwo · 12-21-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

I fully support the Union on this one. I completely distrust the government, and feel awful for those effected by the strike. Blame and demonize the union, but don't forget they are reacting (and did so by a memeber referendum) to the negotiations which occured with the MTA. Corrupt unaccountable politician types, to be sure. Can't you just see the 'government/management/MTA' negotiator tisk tisking, wagging his little finger, and smirking while he reminds himself that these idiots have no bargaining power because they can't strike. Ouch.

Of cousr if I was the man on this one, I'd fire them all as fast as they could say "one million dollars a day?"

Solidarity TWA,

-bear

I think it went more the other way in this case.

The union figured they had the city over a barrel and could make unreasonable demands.

I'd fire them all and let them come crawling back for their jobs one by one

maleficent · 12-21-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

They live in Jersey or a tenament in Queens, Brooklyn or the Bronx, and get married or have roommates who also have an income.

Jersey isn't all that much cheaper...

at one point, i thought cops and firemen in nyc had to live in one of the five boroughs... living in jersey wasnt an option.

Cynthetiq · 12-21-2005, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

Of cousr if I was the man on this one, I'd fire them all as fast as they could say "one million dollars a day?"

Solidarity TWU,

-bear

I see because you aren't "the man" that's why you're supportive of them but if you were the man you'd screw them all.

Nice to see you have strong convictions in your beliefs.

and sorry, they were offered a fair deal... fairer than anyone who's NOT a union person like myself.

Quote:

LINK
The MTA wanted a two-year contract, while the union wanted a three-year deal. The MTA made it three years.

The union rejected raises of 3% a year. The MTA bumped yearly hikes to 3%, 4% and 3.5%, which compound to 11% over the life of the contract.

The union asked for more money. The MTA added a 0.5% bonus.

The union proposed Martin Luther King Day as a paid holiday, giving the workers 12 a year. The MTA agreed.

The union accused the MTA of subjecting large numbers of employees to arbitrary punishments. The MTA proposed hiring an independent consultant to recommend disciplinary system reforms.

The union balked at having new workers - and only new workers - contribute 1% of their salaries for health insurance. The MTA dropped the idea even though skyrocketing health costs are fueling a deficit projected at almost $1 billion.

And there was progress even on the most difficult issue: pensions. Transit workers now contribute 2% of salary to pensions and can retire at half pay after 25 years on the job at age 55. The costs are bankrupting the MTA and driving up fares. That's why the agency proposed requiring newly hired workers to stay on the job until age 62 and to kick in 3%.

When the TWU adamantly opposed raising the retirement age, the MTA retreated to 55 and both sides began discussing whether new workers should contribute 3%, 5% or 6%, and for how long. But Toussaint abruptly ended the talks, and the strike was on. So irrational was his action that a third of Toussaint's executive board voted against the walkout, and TWU International President Michael O'Brien is calling on the strikers "to report to work."

j8ear · 12-21-2005, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

and sorry, they were offered a fair deal... fairer than anyone who's NOT a union person like myself.

That is a conclusion not a fact. A conclusion not supported by the union's referendum. Fair to you or "fairer then others" is irrelevant. And while you do live in NYC and are probably more effected by this action then most of us, remember it probably colors your opinion.

Attempting to demean my character with a "lack of conviction" charge shows very little class on your part.

And for what's it's worth :

1. What kind of system allows unions, and then forbids them to strike. I advocate a strength of conviction that permits you to defy unreasonable laws, and protect your best interests.

2. When you've been beaten down by the game at which you have modified the rules in your favor, I similarly advocate strong and decisive action to defeat and break your opponent.

The real and larger problem remains that we have one of the most important economies being crippled by a transit strike. Demean and demogoue all you like, who ever you like. Remember that BOTH parties hold culpibility here.

-bear

j8ear · 12-21-2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The union figured they had the city over a barrel and could make unreasonable demands.

Maybe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I'd fire them all and let them come crawling back for their jobs one by one

Me too. Although, there are lots of jobs out there right now. Who knows what that would do. Cripple the city further? On the other hand these union pussies who have become so accustomed to no responsibilty, gauranteed wage increases, and government quality entitlements, that they might have a tough time in the private sector.

-bear

*edit cleaned up some quoting snafu's

j8ear · 12-21-2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Jersey isn't all that much cheaper...

at one point, i thought cops and firemen in nyc had to live in one of the five boroughs... living in jersey wasnt an option.

Sussex county is quite a haul, but you get two to three times the crib for half the price...even of one of the lesser burroughs. I know many many long distance commutors. And I've seen my brothers "walk in closet" and the kitchen and bed it contains in the Brooklyn. Ouch.

In fact I just moved to Sussex County, and have been offered several positions in the city. I'm out though. For me it's a life of Gentlemen Farming, with a consultation or two from time to time from hear on out.

As far as living in the city, I remember hearing something about that too. I'm quite certain that it didn't happen, or at least didn't apply to legacy crews since I also know a few of New York's finest and bravest who live in Jersey.

-bear

Esen · 12-21-2005, 03:02 PM

Hey all,

Well i wound up walking only an hour and a half yesterday and received a ride over the bridge to Manhattan then took the Path train to Jersey city.
Istayed over night in Manhattan and am staying in manhattan untill Friday if the strike lasts.
Which sux becasue my wife is 8 months preggers.

Anyway you cut it the people of nyc are being screwed and I dont blame the transit workers for it. I blame the union that laeds them. I know of many transit workers who do want to go to work.
But anyone who understands union politics know that those employees would be outcasted.

It is really sad.

SOmetimes I thikn that we actually live in a soap opera and things like this are planned to just give the city a good story line to follow. lol

I want to go home, becasue I'm staying at my friends place who is out of town and all he has is Gay porn.(nothing against gay porn Im just not into it) and this really sucks becasue when you are by yourself in a strange apartment you get well horny, damn the Union and damn gay porn. I want to go home.

Cynthetiq · 12-21-2005, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

That is a conclusion not a fact. A conclusion not supported by the union's referendum. Fair to you or "fairer then others" is irrelevant. And while you do live in NYC and are probably more effected by this action then most of us, remember it probably colors your opinion.

Attempting to demean my character with a "lack of conviction" charge shows very little class on your part.

And for what's it's worth :

1. What kind of system allows unions, and then forbids them to strike. I advocate a strength of conviction that permits you to defy unreasonable laws, and protect your best interests.

2. When you've been beaten down by the game at which you have modified the rules in your favor, I similarly advocate strong and decisive action to defeat and break your opponent.

The real and larger problem remains that we have one of the most important economies being crippled by a transit strike. Demean and demogoue all you like, who ever you like. Remember that BOTH parties hold culpibility here.

-bear

not demeaning your lack of conviction, but if you TRULY supported your beliefs as for the union, then you'd carry those over to if you were to be on the other side. To speak from both sides of your mouth shows me that you aren't strong in your conviction, you are as stong in your opinion depending on which way the wind blows. If you were the Man you'd sock it to them, but since you aren't, you are sympathetic to them.

As for me being a NYC person. I didn't walk to work. I drove to work as I have a car here in NYC, which costs me extra to own and house. If I walk to work it's a CHOICE not forced upon me by some asshole who decided to not do his job. Yesterday I worked from home.

They didn't fuck me. They fucked all the other people who live with roommates and get paidn $5.35/hr and barely make ends meet by making it hard for THEM to get to work. Do you really think they have sympathy for someone who is going to make $50k+?????

Read up the the Taylor Law that was enacted in 1967.

Quote:

New York State Public Employees Fair Employment Act - The Taylor Law
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Is It?

The Public Employees Fair Employment Act, commonly known as the Taylor Law, is a labor relations statute covering most public employees in New York State-- whether employed by the State, or by counties, cities, towns, villages, school districts, public authorities or certain special service districts. It became effective September 1, 1967 and was the first comprehensive labor relations law for public employees in the State, and among the first in the United States. It is the legal foundation used by GOER in its negotiations with New York State's public employee unions.

What Does It Do?

The Taylor Law:

grants public employees the right to organize and to be represented by employee organizations of their own choice;
requires public employers to negotiate and enter into agreements with public employee organizations regarding their employees' terms and conditions of employment;
establishes impasse procedures for the resolution of collective bargaining disputes;
defines and prohibits improper practices by public employers and public employee organizations;
prohibits strikes by public employees; and
establishes a state agency to administer the Law- The Public Employment Relations Board (PERB).
Administration Of The Taylor Law

The New York State Public Employment Relations Board (PERB) was created as an independent, neutral agency to administer the Taylor Law. The three member Board is appointed by the Governor, with the consent of the State Senate. The Board's major responsibility is to act as an umpire in disputes arising under the Taylor Law. Other responsibilities include: administration of the Taylor Law statewide; resolution of representation disputes; provision of impasse resolution services; adjudication of improper practice charges; designation of management/confidential employees; determination of employee organization responsibility for striking and ordering forfeiture of dues and agency fee check-off privileges; and, administration of grievance and interest arbitration panels.

Resolution of Contract Disputes

Mediation: Generally under the Taylor Law there are four impasse resolution systems, and in each system, mediation is the required first step. Either or both parties may request mediation assistance by filing a "Declaration of Impasse" with PERB's Director of Conciliation. The mediator is appointed by the Director from PERB's full-time staff or its panel of per diem mediators. The mediator acts as liaison between the parties, and seeks to effect a settlement through persuasion and compromise.

Fact-Finding: If mediation fails to resolve the impasse, then Fact-Finding is the next step. The fact-finder may attempt to resolve the dispute through further mediation. If not, or if unsuccessful in that effort, the fact-finder then holds a hearing, takes testimony of witnesses, accepts briefs from the parties, and then makes a written, nonbinding recommendation for settlement to both parties. The Fact-Finder then makes the report and recommendations public within five days of transmission of the report to the parties.

Binding Arbitration: For New York State Police units, the procedure is similar to what the law provides for local police, fire fighters, and certain transit employees. The Taylor Law provides that if the dispute is not resolved in mediation, PERB, on petition of either party, will generally refer the dispute to arbitration. Arbitration for New York State Police units is restricted to issues directly related to compensation and the decision of the arbitrator is binding on both parties.

Legislative Hearing: In those instances where arbitration is not permitted, if one or both parties does not accept the fact-finding report in its entirety, then for public employees (with the exception of public employees of educational institutions, police, fire fighters and certain transit employees) the next step is a legislative hearing. The Governor's Office of Employee Relations submits to the Legislature a copy of the fact-finding report plus the agency's own recommendations for resolving the dispute. The employee organization may submit its recommendations for settling the dispute as well. A public hearing is then conducted by the Legislature or a legislative committee to hear the positions of both sides. The Legislature usually directs both parties to resume negotiations but occasionally, the legislature will choose to impose employment terms. Such imposition may be for no more than a single fiscal year. A legislative determination cannot change the terms of an expired agreement unless the employee organization has waived its right to stand on those terms.

Conciliation: Is mediation assistance which PERB may offer, at its discretion, if an impasse continues after a fact-finding report has been issued.

Full Text here

ubertuber · 12-21-2005, 03:12 PM

J8ear,
I've got a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind. Do you also feel that police and firefighters should be allowed to strike? How do you feel about President Reagan firing 11,000 Air Traffic Controllers who struck illegally? Do you feel that workers should be allowed to bring larger society to its knees because their occupation falls into an area that is necessary? Do you feel that the fact that a public servant's salary is paid by taxes should obligate them to work while negotiating? Do you think that teachers should be able to strike? Workers at the electric utility? Water utility? What about the military?

Here's another tack: A central tenant of our country's legal principals involves the freedom to engage in an act coupled with the responsibility to assume the consequences of those actions. While it is illegal to shout fire in a crowded theater that isn't on fire, you'll be hailed as a hero for getting people out if such a danger actually exists. Given this, do you feel that it is fair to hold the TWU local 100 responsible for the massive economic harm their illegal actions have caused to businesses, individuals, and government? After all, their choice to walk off their jobs has resulted in hundreds of millions of dollars in damage to the city. This ranges from the Gap selling less sweaters to workers commuting from the outer boroughs paying over $70/day to get to work and back home. This is a real and measurable harm directly caused by an avoidable choice local 100 has made.

The point of a union that can't strike is that it permits workers to engage in collective bargaining, which is actually the whole point of a union (not work stoppages) while making sure that essential public services are not disrupted. While not being able to strike legally does take the fangs out of a union's teeth, it doesn't render it powerless. In fact, obviously, it doesn't even prevent the union from striking. What a law like the taylor amendment does is ensure that employees of agencies that provide essential services do not strike unless it is worth breaking the law and facing stiff fines over. The taylor amendment even even offers provisions for mediation and arbitration if negotiations stall to ensure that workers are not backed into a corner by their lack of striking power. TWU local 100 has chosen not to exercise all of these options.

I mentioned the air traffic controllers before, and I think it is worth mentioning that not all the strikers were fired immediately. There was a grace period of 48 (I think) hours for some workers to reconsider the illegality of their actions. Those 1,500 who did change their minds kept their jobs. In my mind, this is a dangerous kindness. Keeping individuals around that have already shown such a willingness to express their desires in such harmful ways doesn't seem intelligent.

P.S. I didn't walk to work either (and it sure as hell wasn't because I make a lot of money!). I took the elevator (I live and work in the same building). My commute clocked in at a solid 75 seconds.

j8ear · 12-21-2005, 03:27 PM

Of course police and firefighters should be able to strike, and ALL so called public sector, for the good of the people types, OF COURSE AND WITHOUT QUESTION they should be able to strike. And at the same time, if their employers find it in their best interest to fire them all, then so be it. That's how it works, you pay me what I'm worth, and I'll do the job you require. If you demand more then the market will allow, you don't get a job? Why is this a question? Do some employees have such impact on society, yet we pay them too little? Perhaps. Solution. Prevent them from job actions? With laws? Instead of paying them what the market will bear? Am I the only one who sees the folly in this?

I'm so exasperated by the vastly superior "I can afford to own and house an automobile in Manhattan" Cyn that I am a little beside myself right now. How the fuck is his wealth and superiority to the rest of us commoners relevant? How does it do anything to forward this discussion?

I need to take 5...or maybe 24...

I'll be back....maybe.

-bear

ubertuber · 12-21-2005, 03:48 PM

bear,

I might agree with your attitude if workers weren't organized. Meaning, if they individually felt they weren't being paid enough, they could threaten to leave. If their employer missed them enough, they'd get what they want. This is how negotiations work in at at will setting. However, essential public sector employees can hold society hostage whether their demands are reasonable or not. What if policemen struck because the city wouldn't pay them each $1,000,000 holiday bonuses? Would we then have to fire all of them and be without police protection until replacements were trained? THAT doesn't seem right to me. Your argument only makes sense to me if you assume that everything a union asks for is within the realm of reason. Do you think all policemen should get holiday bonuses of $1,000,000?

Further complicating the issue is the fact that workers don't really decide to strike - union leadership does. Worse still is the fact that this union leadership makes decisions for everyone when individuals are not allowed to not belong to the union! It is simplistic opinions like these that cause my doubts about the validity of a few people (union leaders) bringing NY to its knees (from a NY Times article):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph J. Hein, 23, a Triboro garage worker

"The union wants us to do this," he said. "We elected them to make decisions for us, and hopefully they're doing the right thing by us. As a union, we all need to stand together behind Toussaint right now."

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose Lopez, 53, a cleaner at the Broadway-Lafayette station

"I don't like it. Co-pays are going up, and salaries should go up, too."

Also, I can see that you are exasperated, but I hope you'll stick around. Your ideas are important and you may yet convince me of something...

j8ear · 12-21-2005, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubertuber

bear,

I might agree with your attitude if workers weren't organized. Meaning, if they individually felt they weren't being paid enough, they could threaten to leave. If their employer missed them enough, they'd get what they want. This is how negotiations work in at at will setting. However, essential public sector employees can hold society hostage whether their demands are reasonable or not. What if policemen struck because the city wouldn't pay them each $1,000,000 holiday bonuses? Would we then have to fire all of them and be without police protection until replacements were trained? THAT doesn't seem right to me. Your argument only makes sense to me if you assume that everything a union asks for is within the realm of reason. Do you think all policemen should get holiday bonuses of $1,000,000?

I don't think policemen should get holiday bonuses of a million dollars. And while I bet, most policement also do not, those that do, would get fired, the rest would go back to work, and the greedy ones would be replaced. Very little disruption of "society." I think. That's the market place. Jobs for those who will work. When you can't fill the positions you need you widen the job pool by lowering standards, or ideally increasing compensation packages.

By the way, there is no police protection or responsibility of the police to protect...this has been decided in a number of Supreme Court Decisions. Just saying is all.

Let's look at the ATC strike during Reagan's era. He fired all of them. Some were allowed back. Sure Air traffic was effected for a fair amount of time, but things returned to levels far better then before the strike. Society took a hit, albeit a realtively insignificant one, and came out better and STRONGER on the other side. A better pool of ATC's now man the nations airways. That's economics, and market forces working together to make improvements.

I like that the ATC union went on strike. I was impressed with ~their~ conviction and dedication to ~their~ cause. I was also impressed with Reagan's handling of the situation. We ended up with some out of work ATC's and some new ones. All in all the Air Traffic Control System and society is better for the action...from both parties as a result.

Hey, that's just how I see it.

-bear

Cynthetiq · 12-21-2005, 05:58 PM

I'm not stating it from superiority but rather my choices of how I choose my lifestyle. There are other people in the city who cannot afford to and there are also those who CHOOSE not to. I'm stating it because I don't need to rely on the MTA if I don't care to. Thus the strike doesn't affect me as much as it does someone else who had to walk 4 hours to work, took vacation/sick days instead of coming in, doesn't have the option of telecommuting, lost jobs because they could not appear at the worksite, small shops who cannot get staff into the city to open stores, pick one.

edit: I'm trying to state this matter of factly not as a superiority position.

Who is going to be the policemen while the ones are still in training? I don't want some yahaoo with little training to be a police officer. I don't want someone who hasn't had the same level of training that I know goes into being an officer of the law. Same goes with firemen.

They did that already with teachers a few years ago because they couldn't get enough teachers because paying what the market would bear isn't possible due to the union setups. Now that they don't need the extras anymore they have been cast aside with no job.

Cynthetiq · 12-22-2005, 09:41 AM

supposedly they are going to stop the strike and go back to the negotiating table.

if the are no going to the negotiating table and bringing back workers without a contract, then WTF was the point of the strike??? for Toussant's ego?

Xazy · 12-24-2005, 10:40 PM

They could not continue the strike past thursday, since they all have to go home to the families (no one on the picket line), and they might get more fines and jail time...

In the meantime Pataki wants to be president which is why he hid during the whole fiasco, and did not even comment until a day after bloomberg did! And even then he did not threaten firing anyone, since he needs the unions for any possible run for president.

Basically we all get screwed they go back to their job, with losing a week pay, and maybe 3 million dollars (depending on the courts ruling). And we set a bad precident allowing a strike to happen.

Frowning Budah · 12-25-2005, 04:42 PM

Oooooh I hate putting my head in a hornets nest, especially when I seem to be in the minority.

From what I am reading from all the New York writers they are saying how hard it is without these workers. Which is the same thing as saying how important they are. Well if they are that important shouldn't they be paid accordingly.

To compare them to the Fire and Police which are obviously under paid isn't really the issue. Fire, Police and teachers should have gone on strike for more money years ago.

People should be allowed to charge for their services whatever the public thinks they are worth.

If you don't think their services are worth what they are asking continue walking to work and quit complaining and the strike will fail and the union will have to take less.

12-21-2005, 12:32 PM	#42 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I did a quick search and came up with some similar numbers but they were all average salaries rather than entry level salaries. Regardless... these guys are getting paid a lot. I can see that a motorman might get paid a lot or even a bus driver. This is some skill involved and you are operating some serious machinery (even if you are just pushing buttons). But a ticket agent or a conductor? Come on. These guys appear to have a very sweet deal. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

12-21-2005, 03:02 PM	#53 (permalink)
Esen TFPer formaly known as Chauncey Location: North East	Hey all, Well i wound up walking only an hour and a half yesterday and received a ride over the bridge to Manhattan then took the Path train to Jersey city. Istayed over night in Manhattan and am staying in manhattan untill Friday if the strike lasts. Which sux becasue my wife is 8 months preggers. Anyway you cut it the people of nyc are being screwed and I dont blame the transit workers for it. I blame the union that laeds them. I know of many transit workers who do want to go to work. But anyone who understands union politics know that those employees would be outcasted. It is really sad. SOmetimes I thikn that we actually live in a soap opera and things like this are planned to just give the city a good story line to follow. lol I want to go home, becasue I'm staying at my friends place who is out of town and all he has is Gay porn.(nothing against gay porn Im just not into it) and this really sucks becasue when you are by yourself in a strange apartment you get well horny, damn the Union and damn gay porn. I want to go home. __________________ ~Esen What is everyone doing in my room?

12-21-2005, 03:12 PM	#55 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	J8ear, I've got a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind. Do you also feel that police and firefighters should be allowed to strike? How do you feel about President Reagan firing 11,000 Air Traffic Controllers who struck illegally? Do you feel that workers should be allowed to bring larger society to its knees because their occupation falls into an area that is necessary? Do you feel that the fact that a public servant's salary is paid by taxes should obligate them to work while negotiating? Do you think that teachers should be able to strike? Workers at the electric utility? Water utility? What about the military? Here's another tack: A central tenant of our country's legal principals involves the freedom to engage in an act coupled with the responsibility to assume the consequences of those actions. While it is illegal to shout fire in a crowded theater that isn't on fire, you'll be hailed as a hero for getting people out if such a danger actually exists. Given this, do you feel that it is fair to hold the TWU local 100 responsible for the massive economic harm their illegal actions have caused to businesses, individuals, and government? After all, their choice to walk off their jobs has resulted in hundreds of millions of dollars in damage to the city. This ranges from the Gap selling less sweaters to workers commuting from the outer boroughs paying over $70/day to get to work and back home. This is a real and measurable harm directly caused by an avoidable choice local 100 has made. The point of a union that can't strike is that it permits workers to engage in collective bargaining, which is actually the whole point of a union (not work stoppages) while making sure that essential public services are not disrupted. While not being able to strike legally does take the fangs out of a union's teeth, it doesn't render it powerless. In fact, obviously, it doesn't even prevent the union from striking. What a law like the taylor amendment does is ensure that employees of agencies that provide essential services do not strike unless it is worth breaking the law and facing stiff fines over. The taylor amendment even even offers provisions for mediation and arbitration if negotiations stall to ensure that workers are not backed into a corner by their lack of striking power. TWU local 100 has chosen not to exercise all of these options. I mentioned the air traffic controllers before, and I think it is worth mentioning that not all the strikers were fired immediately. There was a grace period of 48 (I think) hours for some workers to reconsider the illegality of their actions. Those 1,500 who did change their minds kept their jobs. In my mind, this is a dangerous kindness. Keeping individuals around that have already shown such a willingness to express their desires in such harmful ways doesn't seem intelligent. P.S. I didn't walk to work either (and it sure as hell wasn't because I make a lot of money!). I took the elevator (I live and work in the same building). My commute clocked in at a solid 75 seconds. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam Last edited by ubertuber; 12-21-2005 at 07:35 PM..

12-21-2005, 03:27 PM	#56 (permalink)
j8ear Gentlemen Farmer Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey	Of course police and firefighters should be able to strike, and ALL so called public sector, for the good of the people types, OF COURSE AND WITHOUT QUESTION they should be able to strike. And at the same time, if their employers find it in their best interest to fire them all, then so be it. That's how it works, you pay me what I'm worth, and I'll do the job you require. If you demand more then the market will allow, you don't get a job? Why is this a question? Do some employees have such impact on society, yet we pay them too little? Perhaps. Solution. Prevent them from job actions? With laws? Instead of paying them what the market will bear? Am I the only one who sees the folly in this? I'm so exasperated by the vastly superior "I can afford to own and house an automobile in Manhattan" Cyn that I am a little beside myself right now. How the fuck is his wealth and superiority to the rest of us commoners relevant? How does it do anything to forward this discussion? I need to take 5...or maybe 24... I'll be back....maybe. -bear __________________ It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

12-21-2005, 05:58 PM	#59 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I'm not stating it from superiority but rather my choices of how I choose my lifestyle. There are other people in the city who cannot afford to and there are also those who CHOOSE not to. I'm stating it because I don't need to rely on the MTA if I don't care to. Thus the strike doesn't affect me as much as it does someone else who had to walk 4 hours to work, took vacation/sick days instead of coming in, doesn't have the option of telecommuting, lost jobs because they could not appear at the worksite, small shops who cannot get staff into the city to open stores, pick one. edit: I'm trying to state this matter of factly not as a superiority position. Who is going to be the policemen while the ones are still in training? I don't want some yahaoo with little training to be a police officer. I don't want someone who hasn't had the same level of training that I know goes into being an officer of the law. Same goes with firemen. They did that already with teachers a few years ago because they couldn't get enough teachers because paying what the market would bear isn't possible due to the union setups. Now that they don't need the extras anymore they have been cast aside with no job. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION! Last edited by Cynthetiq; 12-21-2005 at 06:14 PM..

12-21-2005, 01:45 PM	#43 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	LOL, the president of the union (at 4:15 today on tv), explained why they can break the law, they are mentioned Rosa Parks, and then of course mentioned Martin Luther King. I find it sad that they basically are pulling the race card. Then they talk about 'respect' again...

12-22-2005, 09:41 AM	#60 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	supposedly they are going to stop the strike and go back to the negotiating table. if the are no going to the negotiating table and bringing back workers without a contract, then WTF was the point of the strike??? for Toussant's ego? __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

12-24-2005, 10:40 PM	#61 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	They could not continue the strike past thursday, since they all have to go home to the families (no one on the picket line), and they might get more fines and jail time... In the meantime Pataki wants to be president which is why he hid during the whole fiasco, and did not even comment until a day after bloomberg did! And even then he did not threaten firing anyone, since he needs the unions for any possible run for president. Basically we all get screwed they go back to their job, with losing a week pay, and maybe 3 million dollars (depending on the courts ruling). And we set a bad precident allowing a strike to happen.

12-25-2005, 04:42 PM	#62 (permalink)
Frowning Budah Slave of Fear	Oooooh I hate putting my head in a hornets nest, especially when I seem to be in the minority. From what I am reading from all the New York writers they are saying how hard it is without these workers. Which is the same thing as saying how important they are. Well if they are that important shouldn't they be paid accordingly. To compare them to the Fire and Police which are obviously under paid isn't really the issue. Fire, Police and teachers should have gone on strike for more money years ago. People should be allowed to charge for their services whatever the public thinks they are worth. If you don't think their services are worth what they are asking continue walking to work and quit complaining and the strike will fail and the union will have to take less.