Sho Nuff

The appeals process is unnecessarily lengthly in many cases but the system of appeals is needed because we rely on an uninformed jury of peers to decide the guilt of a person in life or death situations. The opinions of the layman must be vetted by experts in order for the death penalty to be humane and have a place in a civilized society

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Cynthetiq

while I still stand by my statement, it doesn't mean that I don't want him to get stayed from his appointment with death.

In my opinion the death penalty is a deterrent to some people for some crimes just like incarceration. While it doesn't bring back those that were intitially killed, I do feel that it does serve a purpose for example.

If you don't punish someone exactly for something that can make someone think twice before acting and you don't follow through with it, then why bother to punish them at all?

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Elphaba

Our justice system allows for multiple pleas to a higher court for any number of reasons. If you might think that I am some pinky knee-jerk liberal, please let me assure you otherwise. My vision is no death penalty, but life in prison will not be a place anyone would choose to go. Seems much more of a "deterent" than living another 20 some years or so playing the legal system. Cheaper for the tax payers, as well.

Eh, what do I know?

Mojo_PeiPei

A Zygote or anything there after is defenseless and innocent. Tookie is a murderer by his own actions, he made a concious choice. By more of his own actions, sending a ripple effect through all of our existence, the man has allowed/facilitated/committed unspeakable evils to be committed. At this point it is of no matter whether he lives or dies.

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abaya

1) obviously there should be a consequence for killing someone. I just don't think killing the murderer is the right consequence. I am not saying to do away with the whole system, man... don't be dramatic. I am saying this part of the system, the death penalty, is not effective except for to carry out revenge and demonstrate further violence.

2) there is no talk about him being released. Where are people getting this idea? And yes prisons are overcrowded but that's a lousy excuse to kill someone. It is indeed cheaper to imprison someone for life than to kill by lethal injection.

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Cynthetiq

hmmm... as it stands there's lots on boths sides there, some states don't have death penalty and others do, and yet there are plenty of criminals on death row or lifetime sentences.

All I know is that I have to foot the bill either way.

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Elphaba

Cyn, my "thank you" was sincere. I am not certain that you took it that way.

Cynthetiq

I did think you said it with all sincerity. I realized on reading it that I never took a stand or stated my view on this subject.

We agree on many levels here.

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Sho Nuff

I realize that you stated "some people", but I disagree that the death penalty serves as a deterrent in any significant number of cases. I cant imagine any case where a person hasnt committed murder for fear of the death penalty yet they would commit the crime in the face of life in prison.

The death penalty is more societies way of enacting revenge against predators, not preventing future deaths.

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Cynthetiq

for you it's not a deterrent, for some people that I have met in my lifetime it has, just like in Singapore people I met were afraid to be caned.

I imagine those places where your hand gets cut off for stealing, that's a great deterrent for some people.

It doesn't have to be any significant number, since the reason we vet out the whole appeals process is to ensure that not 1 innocent person is killed by mistake. One seems to be enough most of the time.

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Elphaba

Another sincere thank you.

We can discuss the pros and cons of our capital punishment law, but none of us are actually facing it. I would like to believe that we are better than the few nations left that have a death penalty statute.

Mostly, I believe we have lost much in world opinion because of this and other abuses of human rights. I would like to see my country take the moral high ground I always believed in.

Ayup, just call me Pollyanna.

Ustwo

I agree, which is why we should bring back torture prior to the execution, none of this painless crap.

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Sho Nuff

There are exceptions to every rule but I dont believe that the death penalty is a deterrent to most people that commit murder. I know a few people that have committed multiple murders and none of them consider the death penalty to be a worse sentance than life in prison, perhaps thats related to the reason they chose to commit murder. I would be interested in hearing about the people that made the decision not to commit murder based on the death penalty.

Fear of punishment is universal, but in the case of the death penalty we are discussing the fear of death being greater than the fear of life in prison. I am interested to know to what sort of person that distinction is material.

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Elphaba

The death penalty has not proven to be a deterrent to murder in multiple studies over many years. The murderer that killed my employee is now getting 3 hots and a cot, and liking it.

stevie667

I say hang the fuckers, it may not be a deterrent, but i'm a firm believer in revenge.

None of this bullshit spending years on death row either, you get sentanced to death, they schedule a time within a few months, boom, off the gallows you go.

That i think may have a better effect.

The death sentance only needs to discourage one person from murdering another and it's done it's job as far as i'm concerned.

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jwoody

I wouldn't take another life and I wouldn't allow my government to take one on my behalf.

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analog

My only take on this whole matter is this-

People always say prison is supposed to be more about rehabilitation than punishment.

So here's my simple query: If jail is to rehabilitate, no matter how horrible the crime, and enough rehabilitation is reached to cause the person to become some sort of positively-contributing member of society... then why are we still killing him?

Let him die in jail, sure, but let him spend his remaining years CONTINUING to lead kids away from the pressures of gangs, to keep working for no money towards keeping children out of the mindsets that put them into the gang scene.

You can talk about how he should die in jail for his crimes in the past, but if this case shows us anything, it's that the notions of prison being for "rehabilitation", which many of us know to be bullshit anyway, are totally unfounded. He's doing community service work- GOOD community service work. Working to turn around the harm he caused before. Is there no benefit to be gotten from free community service that helps others from following in his footsteps? From him saying, look, I'm gonna die in here. And for what? Because I thought i was cool in a gang? Have more respect for yourself than that.

Now, the message is, no matter how much you try to do good, people will only see the past, and just simply don't give two shits about your many, many years of positive service to the world. I don't give a damn who you are, or what you did- when you spend so many years writing books and doing all this work to try and keep other generations of kids from making your mistake, teaching them to be better people, I think you should at least not get shrugged off like a common fucking criminal who never tried to give something back.

flat5

stevie667, carrying out the sentence quickly would be ok if the person is always guilty.

A problem with the death sentence is the person is not always guilty.
A prosecuting team wields great power. The power and resources of the state.
Like the man just killed said "I don't see no millionares on death row".

Ustwo

I decided to read more on this, and the more I read the more I wonder why anyone gives crap if this piece of human debris lives or dies.

I can't even find where he says he is sorry for what he did, not that I would care that much.

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Bill O'Rights

This is precisely why I converted from being a staunch supporter of the death penalty, to opposing it.
Guarantee me that everyone put to death, by the state, is in fact, 100% guilty. Not beyond a "reasonable doubt", but beyond any shadow of a doubt...then maybe.

There are instances that do shake my resolve. For example, cases where children are abducted, raped and killed. If anyone truly "deserves" to die...then it would be, in my opinion, those that can commit such crimes. But again, I need to be shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that it was this man that actually did it. Not just because it was easy for the police to make a case, and the guy couldn't get descent defense counsel.

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Charlatan

Analog has given one of the best reasons why I am against the death penalty.

There are more reasons but this is one of the best.

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JustJess

Frankly... I don't know.
On the one hand, I don't see the death penalty as revenge, but rather a safety mechanism for the masses. There are some people who are just never going to be safe - they are always going to be killers/rapists/maiming whatever. Those people... just kill them. Get them out of our society pronto.

On the other hand... what if they're not actually guilty?

If a police officer catches someone red-handed - they see that person raping someone and she's obviously not consenting - just shoot the fucker and be done with it, right? But that would require depending on the police officer's ability to make an objective decision. It's the same problem with a jury. I don't trust them to be able to cut through the defense and the prosecution's bullshit.

You know they have image consultants? People giving advice on how to dress, how to act, to gain the sympathy and/or trust of the jury?
How is that a fair and just process anymore, if it ever was?

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abaya

One more time: He HAS been out of society. That is the whole point of incarceration; removal from society. If he had been granted clemency, he would not have walked free from jail. He would have remained in jail for life.

This is the 3rd or 4th post I have made to correct the idea (in this thread) that if you get rid of the death penalty, then you get rid of all punishment for crimes. Look man, the death penalty is NOT the whole system. It is one of the bad parts of the system, if you ask me. Precisely because of what flat5 and others have said; there is NO guarantee of guilt. Money has a big impact on these kinds of decisions... again, no rich people are sitting on death row.

And thank you, Analog, for addressing that issue at last... what is the point of our prison system if it doesn't give credit to prisoners who DO reform and try to change their ways?

Frankly, the blood-thirstiness of some people on this thread shocks me.

... anyway, he's gone now. They had trouble finding the vein, apparently... took 12 minutes to administer the injection last night. Jesus.

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Ustwo

It is belived he ordered hits on people while in jail. Just a fyi.

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abaya

Key words: "It is believed." What is your source? I think it's also crucial to know *when* he ordered those hits, if at all... early in his prison term? If it happened in the last 5-10 years, well, I'd be willing to listen. But a news article is not going to convince me. Too much bias.

Also, if people knew he was ordering hits from jail, then why did they let him make contact with anyone? If true, then it's another flaw in the system.

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Carno

Hmmm, I dunno.

Is prison really an effective rehabilitator? If it is, then yes I think he should be spared. If it isn't, then I don't really care whether he lives or dies. His supposed "enlightening" and finding God does not affect me one bit. Everyone finds God in prison.

I know a guy who has been in and out of jail many times and has been in prison once. He apparently found God, but is he rehabilitated? Hell no. He just got arrested again last week for armed robbery. I kinda think prison is a joke. I know another guy who got 7 years in prison for dealing coke. Was he reformed when he got out? Hell no. And according to him, neither are his 12 other buddies who got arrested with him.

In fact, the guy who ratted him out got only 2 years, when he committed the same freakin crime. Is he rehabilitated? Highly doubtful. People say all kinds of bullshit when they are faced with their actions. Talk is cheap; there are too many pieces of shit who lie through their teeth to get away with stuff, and a lot of times they do.

But then again I'm a bitter and jaded product these times, so what do I know.

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Coppertop

Didn't read the whole thread, but...

You'd have a point if he apologized for the murders he commited. He didn't do that in what you quoted.

edit - and "An eye for an eye leaves the world blind" was said by Mohandas Gandhi, if I recall correctly.

Carno

Oh yeah, I forgot to comment on that too.. He didn't apologize for the murders.. he kinda sorta apologized for starting one of the most violent gangs in the US.

Because kinda sorta apologizing for something like that means a lot. How about telling the pigs what you know about being a Crip leader you stupid fuck?

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JustJess

I'm not saying he hasn't been. My post was meant to illustrate that I am torn on the subject. Life in prison is a waste if they're not being rehabilitated... and let's face it, most of them aren't.

Like it's been said, lots of people sing differently when they're face with actual consequences. But once those consequences are dealt with (get out on probation), they suddenly stop caring. That's my problem with the Tookie thing - sure, he's so helpful now. I wonder how long he's been trying to get out of the death penalty. I honestly believe that some people will never change - most of us do not change our basic natures significantly over our lifetimes. Thus, why not remove the problem rather than allow it to continue to affect us?

On the other hand...what if they actually are innocent??

And that made me cringe just reading it. So it's not like I'm sold on the death penalty either. It's a complex issue. I don't believe there is an easy answer. But that answer has got to involve prison policy reform - it's clear that it's not helping/working/anything right about now.

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abaya

Jess--I think you've got it. That's the whole point, that the US prison policy is screwed up these days. We have to take people out of society when they break our rules, but once we remove them, we have no idea what to do with them. Maybe most of them don't reform. So it IS a waste, then. But what are the other options?

If, as you say, most people never change over their lifetimes... well, that's pretty depressing. We might as well kill any criminal as soon as they are "found guilty," since even if they go to prison they'll always be a corrupt criminal and a scourge on society.

I don't know if I can say that no one is capable of reform.

(Btw, I didn't mean to accuse you of being blood-thirsty; that was aimed at others who have voiced very clear opinions on "hanging the fuckers" and whatnot... was very surprised to hear that on TFP, I guess.)

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SirLance

I do not favor the death penalty. And before everyone points it out, yes I have killed as a soldier in time of war. Everyone can change their point of view...

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genuinegirly

I disapprove of the death penalty in general. And the prison system still has a lot of kinks to work out, too.

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trickyy

i'm not a big fan of the death penalty
but i don't think indirectly watching the news qualified me to make a decision on this one

Poppinjay

I've never favored the death penalty as it is currently practiced. I think it should be extremely rare. Tim McVeigh would get the penalty. Scott King would not. In cases which involve a tremendous loss of life and an anti-social hatred of society, I would favor the death penalty.

Karla Faye's jealous rage killing? No. Tookie? Yes. Just based on his founding of the Crips alone, he started a genocidal army over half a million strong that has exacted a tremendous loss of life and has practiced an anti-social hatred of society.

As he "reformed", he still maintained that he never murdered those four people. I strongly suspect that in reality, those are the only four cases that were tried. I would bet there are probably several dozen that we never heard about.

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Tamerlain

Two problems that I have from the previous posts:

The fines you pay go towards repairing the damages you caused, paying the police officers, firemen and ambulances and yes, also punishment. Punishment is punishment, yes, but there are varying degrees for a reason. While I understand your analogy, I don't think it works in this case. You can't equate the punishment received for running a red light with the punishment received for murder.

When an inmate is in prison, it is not for rehabilitation - they are held there awaiting their death. It just happens that they're in the same building as other inmates who are, supposedly, there for punishment AND rehabilitation. Whether or not that works...

Tookie just happened to be rehabilitated while he was awaiting his sentence. The fact remains that he was there waiting to die, not to be rehabilitated. That he was rehabilitated apparently has no weight in the matter, as evidenced by the fact that his sentence is being carried out.

I would argue that he could have a greater good on society if granted clemency than by being some kind of example - a weak one at that. If you murder someone, you will be sentenced to death... in 20 years or so? Not very effective, if you ask me. A review of the system seems to be in order. There must be a better way, if for nothing else than efficiency.

-Tamerlain

raveneye

I don't think anybody, including the state, has the right to kill somebody unless in self-defense. I don't see capital punishment as serving any useful purpose to society whatsoever, and it violates the sanctity of human life. I also find it sickening, and appalling that medical experts are involved in facilitating executions.

And that's all independent of the fact that 95% of all defendants can't afford a lawyer, that executions are raced based (if your victim is white you're much more likely to be executed than if your victim is black), that capital punishment does not deter and is more likely to increase the murder rate (to eliminate witnesses), that's it's less costly to society not to execute, etc. etc.

Stompy

I agree 100%. I'm serious, too.

I don't even think lethal injection is that much of a deterrent because of how painless it is.

Hell, the first injection is 5000 mg of pentothol.. 100-150 mg is typically used in surgery, so you know the person is OUT. I think 5000mg is even lethal itself. In any case, he felt nothing and didn't know what hit him.

The only pain he felt was the psychological effect of, "in 30 minutes, you'll be dead."

"Well, I won't even know I'll be dying, so I guess it doesn't matter." doesn't seem like much of a deterrent for me. If I REALLY wanted to kill someone, was willing to deal with the consequences, and all I had to face was lethal injection, that'd be cake. On the other hand if I had a more... nasty way of dying, such as electrocution... screw that. I'd skip the crime.

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wombatman

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/archiv...victim-photos/


The photos of the murder victims...for what it's worth. Just a heads-up: while I found them to be only mildly gruesome (and I'm somewhat squeamish), they are shots of the murdered people. One shows a disfigured face (shot there maybe?). I believe it's the last of the 3 people mentioned.

SecretMethod70

Amen. Most everything I'd want to say has been said here, but Amen. And if that's not enough, let's be "greedy." The death penalty costs more than life in prison, and the only way for it to cost less is to reduce the checks and balances that help uncover innocent people who were found guilty. Like the over a dozen people discovered in Illinois not long ago. Of course, the really sad thing about that is that the innocence of a few of those people was uncovered by private investigative work, not the normal means available to the prisoners.

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Ustwo

While I'm by no means squeamish I didn't need to see that last one. Of course I looked before you edited.

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