I wouldn't dream of telling a parent what I think of how their little heathen.. i mean darling is behaving - but lately -- it's been so rare that I see children behaving properly (and I don't expect a little soldier to sit there with their hands folded on their lap not saying a word) the little darling can speak -- no screaming - no tantrums - no getting up and walking around.

I was on a flight not all that long ago.. and there was a child seated next to me-- kid must of been about 5 or 6. mom and dad with the two other kids were two rows ahead of her. (I guess Iw as the trustworthy old lady that it's ok to sit kids next to) This child said please, thank you, and was actually almost conversant -- I handed her a deck of cards I had in my bag... and she kept herself -- and me --- entertained thru the whole flight.

I complimented her parents on what a well behaved child she was - and I swear I thought they were thinking i was going to be insulting, and say what a brat she was... She was a good kid. There are good well behaved kids out there... Just lately -- it's rare. I wasn't being condescending or insulting when I said it - it was just an absolute pleasure to be around a good kid.

With my own little shit nieces and nephews - these kids are brats... Over indulged, spoiled brats. and they are now at the age they are old enough to know better. My nephew has been disinvited from one of his little friends house because he just can't behave himself... (my sister thinks the little friends mother is unreasonable.) My sisters brats have been banned from not one but two ice cream places near their vacation spot in North Caroline because the kids are brats... My sister doesn't see what they do wrong... :eyeroll: I've asked to take the kids for a weekend -but I'm not responsible enough to babysit the children for a weekend...

Marv, kids would go nuts for a free puppy... make it a pregnant cat and you will strike fear in a parent's heart. :D

This thread just caused a tune to take root in my brain. The music is like "a spoonful of sugar" but the words are something about ether. I'll have to work on that.

I love the little ones, even the un-parented (brat) ones. In some cases though, distance certainly makes the heart grow less homicidal.

No it doesn't, but most parents think that they can just go someplace and let the staff be the de facto baby sitter. Parenting is a 24/7 365 job. There is no time off, there is no break. It's that way until the child is 18.

I'll bet she doesn't have any guns, but would get pretty pissed if I set up an appropriate backdrop in an enclosed area on my (theoretical) property next door and started firing off my shotgun while she was trying to eat dinner. What about driving down the street with my engine at wide-open-throttle at four in the morning? What if I started lobbing water ballons into the street wtih my potato gun? That's about the same safety hazard and annoyance factor as a kid running aroudn a restaurant tripping waitresses and ramming into your legs. I love people who don't have something but tell you how and when you can use yours.

I checked, and one poster called them little fuckers, and the first person to use the phrase "little shits" was you in the post I am now replying to. That hardly constitutes everyone. People have on the most part been rather respectful of kids, even though kids may annoy the hell out of them due to their behavior.



Then you are a good mother with, most likely, well behaved kids, so the little fuckers comment doesn't apply to you anyway ;)



You are completely correct in that it is the parents' fault when the kids are rotten. However, that does not change the fact that the kids are, in fact, monsters (or little fuckers as some people put it).

If I get a dog and train him from day one to bite strangers, and then he bites a stranger, it would not be inaccurate to call him a vicious dog, even though it is indeed my fault that he is vicious.




No one called your kids any names. Your kids are presumably well behaved so NONE of the above comments apply to your situation.

shakran: You are correct in pointing out that it wasn’t everyone, and for that I stand corrected and apologize. Also I would like to point out that some posts have been edited, so you probably missed what I was talking about and I didn’t want to quote anyone as to place blame. I would also like to say to you, in regards to your response, the f-ers wouldn’t not apply to me, but my kids. To the third part, what I was responding to was the use of derogatory terms, so in this case it would be “That vicious fucker of a dog.” Not the term vicious itself as yes, that part would be appropriate. And as for no one calling my kids names in this thread that may be true, but if they were going to, I’d like to think it wasn’t a little f-er or shit. I do appreciate your time in considering what I have said though, so thank you.

I would also like to make a public thank you to the person(s) who has quietly changed their post. That shows that maybe you see what I seen in that it was an excessive remark in regards to the situation (or you did it to be considerate, either way it’s appreciated and not just by me).

If your opinion is that a child was being a Blankity Blank Blank, then so be it. I just thought I might share with you my thoughts and opinions, right along side yours*, as to why these names aren’t necessary, and there are much less derogatory names that could be used. Like brat or heathen or annoying, but I just didn’t see using the term f-ers or any other such term as fitting.

I will however try to be more descriptive of why I feel the way I do about such things as this in the future, because I think that some have made it seem a bit more extreme then truly necessary.

I would also like to say thank you to those that understand where I am coming from. At least I know it's not just me.

Brightest Blessings!

*this is why I love this board, because such things are possible and can be handled in a civilized manner.

Somewhat related: Soon after the birth of my daughter I found myself becoming sensitive to people who have negative attitudes about children as a group. Within a month of my daughter's birth a woman at my work started telling dead baby jokes. The anger I feel when she tells her jokes is surprising.

I would really really really like to shake this proprietor's hand.

People see what they want. In particular, I think people who chose not to have kids seem to be a lot more sensitive to other peoples' kids. I say get over it.

The article mentions a 'sense of entitlement' with no regards to the fact that those who chose not to have kids think they are somehow entitled to not have to listen to kids be kids.

If you don't have kids you will have a hard time telling the difference between a misbehaving kid and one who is displaying age-appropriate behavior (even parents have this problem). People with kids have just as much of a right to have a descent meal as those without.

The really laughable thing is non-parents talking about what is/isn't good parenting. It reminds me of the "I work for cliche" from fark.

and that's why there's such a thing as babysitters... a parent does not need to bring their child wherever they go if the kid is going to be disruptive.

I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect parents to get babysitters every time they want to go out. It's not as if kids are always acting out anyways. I've spent lots of time dining out and in my experience obnoxious kids are almost as much of an exception to the rule as obnoxious adults. Have you ever considered that you are more sensitive to the matter than most people?

Sure they have the right to a decent meal, all I ask is that everyone behave. I don't expect an adult to shout and carry on in a restaurant or place of private business either.

I don't think I'm entitled to not have to listen to kids be kids, I pay extra for it sometimes. The picture of the sign from the restaurant I posted is from a very upscale restaurant. The proprietor chooses to select their clientele by those that can afford it and those that cannot and stops at 14 years old. While I don't choose to do so all the time, I expect that when I'm paying for something, I expect to get it without the interuptions from ANY individual with the exception of medical emergencies.

This means, at the theater both broadway and movie, (I have seen an usher do their job and ush some loud boisterous person right out the door, which I cannot say for movie ushers,) and restaurants that don't have high chairs or booster seats or even a child's menu. If you wish to pay $9 for a basket of fries for your child go right ahead, but if they don't have a booster seat or high chair, take the hint and stop kvetching about how they are missing a market. They probably intentionally created it as such which is common here and most metropolitans that I have travelled to.

No I don't consider myself more sensitive. I don't like loud obnoxious beings to carry on around me.

It's not unreasonable, they had the child and they should be held responsible for the child. If the child does not behave then it's considered reasonable to think that the child is not ready to comingle with the rest of the world from the normal family oriented subset.

Note: I also don't go to diners/coffee shops late at night for the same reasons. Obnoxious loud people carrying on around me....

Bottomline....if you are gonna insist on dragging your kids everywhere you go, then if Im around you, I insist you A. make sure they are behaving and not annoying B. be responsible enough to take yourself and them away if they are not. I've done it....wow its not that hard to do

There is not much in life I hate more than having "date" nite (which means NO child with us) and going somewhere "nice" and having to deal with some couple who's idea of "parenting" is letting their child "express" themselves however they wish.

If I want to watch that crap I'll go to chucky cheese or some place similar.

True story:

A few months ago (6-8 months, I think) I was eating at Tarantino's up in San Francisco, and some couple was letting their 5 or so year old son mess with the waiters as they walked by. When one of the waiters said something to the kid - something like "go see mommy", in order to get the kid away - the kid screamed bloody murder and ran to his parents. I watched in horror as the child said, "That man tried to hit me!" or something to that effect. The father, ready to defend his son's non existant honor, got all huffy and puffy, demanding an apology and such. The waiter calmly explained that he never touched the kid and simply said to go back to the table. This is when it got bad. The father started telling the waiter how he had no right to tell his kid what to do. He got loud. I was about to go do something self rightous when the waiter calmly asked them to leave. After more huffing and puffing, they were gone and the waiter was given an ovation from many of the remaining people, including my wife and myself.

This is not uncommon. Not only are some kids monsters in public places, but their parents have a chip on their shoulder about being bothered by people "who don't have kids". I have a beautiful daughter who will on occasion get excited or tired (and thus loud) in a public place. I simply take her outside or home so that she can get the attention and/or rest that she needs. When I see an irresponsible parent losing control of his or her kid(s), I get pissed just like everyone else. If you can't control more than a few kids, don't bring the whole pack. If you can't control one kid, you need to step it up a bit.

Speaking for myself, I don't expect that. Take your kids wherever you want as long as it won't hurt them. BUT, if they start making a ruckus, and you can't get them to stop QUICKLY, then you and the child need to leave.

Today at work it's Kid's Day where they have lots of activities for kids to come to work with mommy or daddy.

They have a host things to do like get pictures with Dora the Explorer (which happens to be in the conference room across from my office,) make sand sculptures, face painting, coloring, etc.

Well, I've got to work with my door closed because they are noisy. Now mind you, when we get 25 adults in there I have to close the door because they too get noisy.

But there is a major difference.... the din of conversation is a low to middle rumble, the chorus of kids screaming can be a shrill at best.

Ahhhh who wants to behave when there is Dora and face painting!!! Hell, I'd be singing and dancing too!

on the elevator ride up...

a child was whining to his mother...

she said, "Okay, I'm going to take you back to school..." and he shuffled his feet and pinched up his voice to a shrill, "I don't wanna go to school!!!!!!"

Luckily they got off at 7 the first stop and the other person and I looked at each other with a sigh of relief.

I said to him, "And I didn't want to come to work today...Can't someone force me to go to school instead?"

He replied, "yes, I think I can do a day of kindergarten finger painting.."

As a business owner, he has every right to put up any sign he wants and refuse service to anyone.

I completely agree with the owner. If some people arent happy, dont dine at his establishment. Its just that easy.

Its like when people complain about television. If it upsets you, turn it off, or dont watch at all.

People just sometimes like to complain especially in this sue-happy society we all live in.

if the children are so disturbing have you approached your boss or other people in your office about it? could you not like the ushers you mentioned above, have someone at your office remove them for disturbing you?

I am not sure i understand this post or get the meaning. Are you saying the parents should not be able to force their children to go to school? If so then a child who still is in kindergarten can choose not to go to school? Not sure I understand.

the conference room was already modified to help suppress noise after repeated complaints.

it's kids day. It's always kids day the wednesday before Thanksgiving. I just usually am on a trip this week and not in the office.

And now.. after lunch.. it's very quiet now that kids are for the most part gone.

Oh man... oh man oh man oh man....

I want to give this guy a hug. Shit, i'd give him a kiss on the cheek for refusing to take people's shit. It's his restaurant, and he can out up any sign he wants to. I lept out of my chair and gave the man a loud "Amen!" for it.

If you're offended by a polite sign that asks that you keep your spawn mannerly, it's because you have one of those whiny, loud, or generally UNmannerly children that you ignore or think nothing of their poor behavior in public places.

To avoid having to quote almost every person in this now 2-page thread, I'll just give my opinions as a quick list.

1. Parenting is a 24 hour a day, 7 day a week, 365 day a year, 18-year-long job. At least. If you can't control your spawn, then YES, we expect you to get appropriate "babysitting" help EVERY TIME you WANT to go someplace where the whining, carrying on, and general annoyances of your children can't be suppressed, and are inappropriate. Yes, that means restaurants and cafes, among other places.

2. You WANT to be able to take your kids with you. When you CHOOSE to have children, you CHOOSE to waive some of your casual "WANTS" out the window- meaning if you can't keep your little bastards tethered and quiet, you don't get what you "WANT". No one always gets what they want. When you have kids, you choose to make getting some of your "wants" a lot harder.

3. For all the parents who plan around the naptimes and feeding times and cranky times, and know that parenting is often about sacrifice- sacrificing certain things because they just might not be possible with their children at the age(s) that they may be- for all of you good parents who take charge, don't let the brats rule, and are just as pissed as I am at parents who just don't care to watch or discipline their kids (of which there is a growing number, and is in my opinion, more the rule now than the exception), I commend you. I have nothing but respect and admiration for GOOD parents. And yes, that means I judge people on their parenting. Having no children has nothing to do with being able to pass judgment on a pair of idiots who have their little spawn running around, screaming, and acting unruly in general. If that bothers you, it's because you're part of the problem, so I don't want to hear it.

4. They're absolutely right- parenting does change you, and it does change the way you think about certain things in the world. Amassing and pondering the total cumulative experiences I've had with tons of parents over many, many years, I've discovered what the changes are- it makes a lot of people insane. Self-righteous, illogical, selfish, and insane. When you can yell at someone and curse them out, because their only complaint to you was to not have to listen to your little bastard whine and scream while they're eating dinner, then you are selfish, self-righteous, illogical, and insane.

5. All good lists should have five items. Many thanks to the good, sane parents of this world- you're diamonds in the rough.

Yes, he can put up almost any sign he wants. That doesn't mean he can legally enforce it though. Of course, he cannot simply refuse access to just anyone he wants as you say... that is a complete fallacy. I believe we have this thing called a constitution which seems to promote this civilised thing called equality.

Now, it is up for debate whether or not refusing entry to families is discriminating based on age. Certainly it is perfectly legal to offer discounts to senior citizens, and also to children, and high school kids. I think every cinema and restaurant with a kids menu does this.

It feels wrong to me, and selfish to exclude families just because a bunch of elitist snobs would rather only eat with the grown-ups.

That's just what I think.

Gee Analog. Tell us how you REALLY feel. :D



It's been established through scores of precedent that it is not unconstitutional to discriminate based on age when the discrimination involves minors. For example, it is not unconstitutional not to let a 10 year old get a drivers license. It is not unconstitutional not to let an 8 year old into an R rated movie alone. So an adults only place is constitutional. They aren't keeping all black people or all women out. They're keeping the kids out.

Plus, the sign in question does not say children are not allowed. It says children who create a disturbance aren't allowed. Business owners have the right to refuse service to anyone in cases like that. In fact they have the right to refuse service to anyone for pretty much any reason as long as it is not discriminitory based on race/sex etc.

I'm not even sure that it's unconstitutional to keep women out.. Women are not allowed inthe bar at the Monclair Golf Club in NJ, and I'm not sure if it's still true, but women were not allowed in cigar bar at the University Club in NYC (but got charged the same membership rates as men)

To be honest (this is something I'll have to look into later because I have to work) (yes, working on thanksgiving) (yes it sucks) I'm not sure they can't keep black people out either. There are still country clubs out there that are whites only.

Obviously if a cafe tries to keep blacks or women out they'll find themselves in the middle of a firestorm, but I'm not sure it's illegal.

from today's NYTimes, I read this and immediately thought of analog and this thread...

As I read this all I can think of is how when some of our couple friends have kids we may just have to part ways... I'm not willing to think it's sort of sad that some child urinates on the floor and the parents tolerate it. It's FUCKING rediculous, especially if it's MY FLOOR.

So your gonna stop being friends with someone because potentially there kid might or might not pee on your floor? Why not just tell your friends to leave the kid at home if you don't want kids at your house? Its not hard to say, "hey jim and joanne, were having some people over tonight, your more than welcome to attend, its just an adult party though, no kids." not to tuff.

Why is this thread continuing to bash ALL parents and not just BAD parents?

From my personal experiences with friends with kids, yes it's a potential shitstorm because they think that their angels are just angels. They look at the dirty diaper and think that smelly piece of shit just laid into it by their child is a wonderful miracle of life.

Unfortunately I live in a REAL world where people take umbrage and offense to demands and things like, "Please don't bring your :insert being here:" from dogs to children, pain in the ass cousins to girlfriends. People seem to think that they get a pass on a request, sure maybe once, but to keep going on no thank you.

The friends that can handle the request, there's no diffuculty. I know that I have some friends that cannot take such requests so eloquently or respectfully. I'm just earmarking them now because my personal experience has shown me similar traits and behaviors. I'll give them the opportunity to prove me wrong, but once they show that my experiences are right, well we know what is going to happen.

EDIT: re read the article and you'll also see that many parents just disregard the hosts/hostess request. Does that fall under bad parenting? bad friend? When the child musses something up then it becomes bad parenting?

My house isn't child friendly. I don't think that it ever will be. I REQUEST to not have childproof medicine bottles. I have delicate art and objects throught the house.

Should I have to interact with my friend as they continually request the child "Please don't touch that," when if I had respectfully requested that they don't bring the children that they disregarded my request because they couldn't find a baby sitter, felt that it was okay to impose as I wouldn't mind?

I have a very good friend that has 2 kids and we've not seen them without the kids since the kids were born. They know our limits for kids, and instruct us on all kid parties that we attend when the high water mark of kids is going to be so that we can arrive at that point and it's just down hill from there, usally around cake cutting time.

Why am I so sensitive to it? I don't like screaming kids around me, period. Kids tend to scream, regardless of what parents do or say. But in order to see this set of friends, I have to suck it up for the moment until the kids are older. We understand it, and their parents understand it, and don't impose them upon us.

Well that just seems like common sense. If I ask someone not to bring there kids to my house for a party, and they protest, they might as well stay home and end the friendship at that point as there putting their child/themselves above myself and my house. Just makes sense to me.

I guess I find all this talk so odd since I have not run into those types of people myself very often. The posts make it seem like it is 24/7 that some of you are being pounded in public with terrible children and bad parents. I must live in asshole free enviornment or due a better job weeding out the potential bad friends/ bad parents.

edit- as well why write such a negative statement when regarding the bad parent behaviour? why not leave out insults and just make it a statement. I think more people are more incline to read and listen to your view when you make a statement such as....

"I don't like it when parents let there child shit on my floor"

instead of saying....

"fucking dumb kids and there fucking dumber parents letting them shit everywhere"

not quoting directly just an example.

Because they are upset and feel the need to express themselves as such.

A dog doesn't know any better than to shit where it's owner walks it. Do I take umbrage to the fact that I stepped in dog shit on my way out one day and blame it on the fucking dog and the fucking owner? Sure. (I happen to live in a building where I signed a document just like EVERYONE else that lives there that says, "I am not and will not harbor a dog." yet there seems to be lots of not-a-dogs that ride up the elevator with me from time to time.)

It's the same with Customer Service Representatives when trying to get support, banking, etc. The cashier or sales rep that took someone else before you even though you should be first.

It's what people do.

Just because we're talking about children they shouldn't be subject to someone's frustration and wrath to the same degree that they feel they need to? I don't think so, not in my world, maybe yours.

Life is so much better when you just let the little things slide by. I save my battles for the big stuff. Dogs crapping on my lawn, screaming kids, crappy parents are just a part of life. Change all those bad things? Good luck!
I'll let it slide by.

Dogs will continue to be here. Children will continue to get on the elevator, press all the buttons and scream at their parents that they want to push all the buttons and the parents will sit there sheepishly looking apologetic. I have no choice but to let it slide by since that won't change.

But I can still express my disdain and frustration about it.

True, but what does it get you? A coronary heart attack? Higher stress levels? The satisfaction of swearing and screaming up a storm? The same sort of child behavior we were condemning about kids in restaurants?

edit-btw i was not saying that you can't express yourself with swearing, just more so a point of how much hatered was coming out affecting the actual message from being received or clouded.

As a parent and child care provider, when I go out to eat, if I don't have my daughter along then I'm going to a restaurant in hopes of NOT running into noisy kids. When I take my kid out to eat I take her to child friendly family restaurants. It's more fun for her when it's a place that has a child's menu, a coloring pages, crayons, and a brighter atmosphere.

As for misbehaving kids - no matter WHERE you go there are rules that some people don't seem to even care about in regards to caring for children.

1. Use inside voices.
2. No climbing on chairs, benches, or even tables.
3. No running.
4. No throwing toys or crayons.
5. No coloring on the tables.

There's a multitude of other manners that should be observed. I tell you what though. The people who refuse to acknowledge these have a lack of respect for others and as in this article a 'sense of entitlement'. Our generation is somewhat notorious for thinking that we deserve a whole lot more than people in other countries or even former generations ever were given.

not at all.....

the ability to VENT is an important thing... it has to come out somewhere... keeping it in is problematic.

the ability to vent in a responsible and respectful manner is also important. It doesn't give me liberty to berate the parent or child, but I do have the right to sit and kvetch to Skogafoss how asinine someone is in dealing with their offspring. You don't complain about anything? Good for you. I used to not as well, but I've also learned that a good level of complaing about things can sometimes give me some extra focus as to what is truly bothering me about a subject, example: this one about bad kids and bad parents.

Which brings me to another point, I like to talk about broad subjects in colorful language, sometimes that means I may say curse words and to have to hold them back because some small 3 year old is present, well that's just a pain to me. Sure I can stop for a bit, but I would rather not. I can recall a certain dinner conversation that was cut short because someone started talking about suiced. Appropriate dinner conversation? for adults maybe but one of the parents shut down the conversation because he didn't want to have to explain to his kids the concept of suicide. When asked (not me) as to why? Answer? "Because I said so." And of course it was his house, his rules since he was the host.

To me, this list is a big fat "duh." But it also makes me think that this isn't a "duh" for the people quoted in this article.

You know, it wasn't that long ago that I was a kid meself, and between my brother and I we have excellent memories of what it was like to be children. My parents, being educators, took us along to conventions and the like, which didn't always include kid-friendly activities, and a Hilton doesn't always come with a family-friendly restaurant. Since my mother usually insisted on staying in a four-star hotel whenever we traveled (this is before the days of Holiday Inn Express), it meant that we kids had to get used to eating in fairly nice restaurants at a fairly early age. When I saw this article, I was immediately amazed that 1) parents would allow their children to behave this way in public, PERIOD, 2) that they expected to be able to get away with it, and 3) that these children have not been taught that this is not how one acts in a public situation.

Certainly, they are children, but children are far more capable of understanding than we give them credit for. This "kids will be kids" business is bullshit. Kids will be kids, but they have the ability to understand that sometimes the "kid" has to be left home and they have to be on their best behavior. I'm not suggesting all children need to turn into little adults, but I know that as a child I understood that there was a time and a place to be a kid, and a time and a place to be polite, practice good etiquette, etc. I knew that every place I went in public, I had to take "Molly Manners" with me (This was an actual concept my mother came up with. She put us through basic etiquette lessons my entire childhood, using "Molly Manners" as the perfect example of how to behave. I know it worked and I will use it with my children.) and if I didn't, there would be consequences (though most people understood when my brother nearly fell asleep in his spaghetti at a nice Italian place in the Anaheim Hilton after a long plane ride from Seattle...the strolling violinist managed to catch my brother's head in time, thank God).

It seems to me as if we (they) are in turn raising a generation with a sense of entitlement. These parents are being childish in their demands to be able to take their children everywhere; it seems to me that don't understand the idea that parenthood means sacrifice. In turn, they're raising their kids to believe that they deserve to get whatever they want. That isn't how the world works, despite what they may believe. These children are going to be sorely disappointed as adults. Besides, all these parents are doing are raising kids that will need to be mollycoddled the rest of their lives.

It seems to me you are not reading my posts as I stated " i save my battles for the big stuff". so yes i do complain. My part of the discussion is done as what is the point of me posting any replies if your not reading my posts.

maybe again i am missing something.