analog

From CNN.com....

The yellow emphasis, of course, mine. Is this ciompletely ridiculous? Does it fly in the face of free speech, or do they have no obligation to adhere to free speech because they're a business and can take or reject anyone they want? Is that sound business practice, do some of you not even care? Personally, I think it's stupid. I don't even see ANY mention of ANYONE saying anything. Who was hurt? Did the plane blow up because of the shirt? Were scores of impressionable children rendered mentally void because of one woman's choice of apparel? Vote on the poll, and discuss.

snowy

To me that's just really bad customer service. The customer is PAYING for the flight. They have the right to wear whatever the hell they want, as far as I'm concerned. What Southwest should have done was offered her an alternative--if they didn't want her on their plane, they should have found her another flight instead of just kicking her off. That's not only rude, it's bad business.

This woman has friends and family--and she obviously contacted all the right news organizations. I saw this on Headline News, the local news, and in the paper. I can guarantee that people offended by Southwest's practices in this case will not be flying with Southwest again. They have damaged their reputation with customers--and they leave customers asking themselves when they fly Southwest--"Am I going to get kicked off my flight for offending another passenger?"

Of course, some of us already knew that their customer service was shitty...I would never fly Southwest in the first place

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canuckguy

That is hilarious, could they not have just asked her to turn the shirt inside out like they did to people in high school? Not that I agree with it, just an alternative to kicking her off the plane. Over a effing t-shirt. I could see if the t-shirt said "i have a bomb" on it, but a shirt about bush? Very sad.


edit add:
One of the reasons why this place is great.....never really thought about the fact that the lady was wearing that type of shirt, meaning she had made the choice too wear it. And she should have expected someone would be or might be offended. I was really only thinking that the shirt was not that bad, and never thought of the rights of SW over her rights. I think I was ignoring that due to the fact that I would never wear a shirt that read that.

Cynthetiq

a business can do as they see fit since they don't have to follow the whole free speech, freedom of religion, et. al.

she's free to buy a ticket on another airline. she's also free to deal with the consequences of such action.

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Poppinjay

They did ask her to turn it inside out.

Maybe I'm overly sensetive to the word, "fuck". I could understand them not wanting a person on board wearing shirt that says, "Meet The Fuckers". In the library a few months back, there was a guy there with a laptop, which had a sticker on it that said, "Fuck Work". Isn't that a little over the line? I have no problem with a political statement, along the lines of, say, "Meet The Butchers".

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Destrox

I fully agree with "is within their right, but should respect free speech more than that."

Its a business that has full rights to let on whomever they wish...

eh fuck it, read Cynthetiq's post. He's saying what I want to.

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Radarhero

Why the hell choose to get off mid flight when turning your shirt around and complying to something simple. who wants to sit next to someone offensive. like sitting next to an obese man who farts alot and smells like pilchards and has a whooping Cough.

no thankyou.

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pig

I disagree with Cyn et al on this one. I think if she worked for the airline, then yes - I would agree that they should be able to censor her clothing while she represents them in a business capacity. I think as a customer, using a heavily subsidized form of near monopolistic transportation, she should have some expectation to free speech. Otherwise, there will be a large portion of the public domain where free speech becomes moot. That's not to say that I think she should wear the shirt, only that she should have the right to wear the shirt.

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rsl12

The issue is clearly not political--it's an issue regarding obscenity. I'm sure if the t-shirt had used "fockers" instead of "fuckers", there would have been no problem.

I think a good touchstone would be--would airplanes play any movies onboard that display a word like "fucker"? (They may play movies where cussing is spoken, but since parents can monitor what gets heard by restricting access to headphones, I don't think that's as good a gauge). I don't know the answer to this personally--if anyone else knows, I'd be glad to hear.

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Charlatan

If they didn't want her on the flight they shouldn't have let her on the flight in the first place. Instead they let her fly from LA to Reno and then kicked her off.

I agree that the airline can refuse to service anyone they wish. They just need to be consistent. Apparently her shirt was OK in LA but somewhere between LA and Reno it became *not* OK.

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rsl12

The account in the article is a little confusing. I assume the kicking off took place before the plane took off--it makes little sense to kick her off in mid-flight or after they reached their destination.
EDIT: I see now--it was between portland and LA, in Reno. Which really sucks for the woman.

According to the t-shirt-wearing woman, she agreed to cover it up with a sweatshirt, but then the sweatshirt "slipped" when she went to sleep? That sounds really really strange. 1st of all, she managed to get to sleep before the plane took off? It could happen i guess, if the plane were really delayed. 2ndly, the sweatshirt 'slipped'? When's the last time you wore a sweatshirt, fell asleep in a chair, and the sweatshirt slipped off you even a little bit?

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joemc91

Although I agree with the shirt, it is completely bad taste for travel. What ever happened to dressing nicely when traveling? She was also asked to turn it inside out and if she's traveling she probably has another shirt with her! When you travel, you're with tons of people who will have varying opinions and tempers. A shirt like that could incite an argument and possibly a fight. People don't like flying as it is, don't make it worse.

maleficent

I honestly don't care how cheap SW is to fly, I don't fly them because of inconsistencies like that -- the last Southwest flight I took, they allowed a man who was clearly intoxicated to board the plane (which I believe is a violation of FAA rules) the guy smelled like a brewery an was loud and obnoxious (and this was by my new york standards). By the time the plane reached it's destination... they had the guy tied in a seat and was greeted by state troopers and he was arrested. Didn't have to happen if Southwest had actually done their job and not let him board to begin with.

Southwest doesnt seem to have a clear set of guidelines that they follow. If a person has stinky feet - don't let them board at the beginning, if the person is wearing an offensive tshirt, don't let them board at the outset of the flight - (betcha somoene else on the flight complained and that is what prompted it.)

(this is also the same airline that was faced with a lawsuit from some woman who got offended when the flight attendent got people in their seats by saying eenie meanie miney moe, please take your seats so we can go... (that was offensive because the second half of eenie meanie actually uses a derogatory term... Guess southwest is a little gunshy about offending anyone,.

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KellyC

I feel a little bit of bias in that article so there's another one to weigh it out...if possible.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/06/D8D2NNROD.html

My take on this is that she should damn well know the consequences of her action, she's bound to piss people off when she put on that t-shirt. It's like she's asking for trouble, and trouble comes. So she should deal with it. The airline staff, the way I see it, just tries to please the majority as they see it more important. They gave her a two choices: turn it inside out or leave. She chose the latter, they didn't make her.

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raeanna74

My biggest gripe would be the change in their position. If they'd been consistent I doubt there would have been as much of a problem. Dumping someone off a plane midway between their starting point and destination could be a big cost for someone. She's not asking for a lot - just for her added expenses paid. I think that's fair.

As for the freedom of speech part of this debate. I would never wear a shirt like that in a general public situation. I would not necessarily appreciate vulgar language. I would NOT however force someone else to change their clothes because of my tastes. Besides - how many people are seeing that shirt repeatedly during a flight. Everyone is facing the same direction and she was likely sitting with her husband on one side of her so that leaves only a few people who would have seen the shirt very much. Why make an issue of it in the middle of a trip? That's stupid and bad business.

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Poppinjay

That's kind of odd about letting a drunk guy on board. On that show on A&E, every episode seems to be based on them refusing flight to drunk folks.

As far as eenie meenie miney mo, I'm guessing the attendant was from my generation and came of age during the gentler times when it was a tiger that was captured by the toe.

I guess Southwest is guilty of bad application of rules here. But I do very much agree with joemc91. People used to dress at least a little nice to fly, probably because so many fliers were business people, srpinkled with some military in their cammies. Now, it's like a slumber party.

What was it Troy McClure said on the History of Air Travel, "People Express introduced air travel to a generation of hicks!"

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StanT

I'm all for the right to wear whatever you want, but the airline has the right to refuse service for wearing it. It seems like the lady was looking for trouble and Southwest wasn't consistent in applying it's rules.
They deserve each other.

albania

I think that freedom of speech wasn't denied to anyone, the lady got to wear the shirt didn't she? However, freedom within a republic/democracy doesn't mean doing whatever you want, it means having a choice to decide what you can and can't do, as in by voting. No freedom was trampled here, the freedom of speech referred to in the constitution does not mean having the freedom to say what you want. In my opinion this lady had plenty of opportunities, she chose to do something that is still even in this time controversial, believe me a shirt like that will get comments on the street, although they may vary depending on where you live. She chose now she gets to live with the consequences. I think the only valid point here is that the airline hasn't been consistent, I seriously doubt that this is the first time someone has gotten on with a provocative shirt. However, i think it will be a weak case to base it just on that because it is the airlines policy and unless someone else on the flight had a shirt that was offensive and wasn't kicked out then this lady doesn't have a case.

politicophile

The first amendment can go fly a kite: it is completely irrelevant to this situation.

SouthWest is not violating any anti-discrimination laws by refusing service to obscene T-shirt wearers. Even if the policy is selectively enforced, the airline remains in the right.

Furthermore, what would be wrong with an airline refusing service to people who disrespected our President?

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highthief

I agree she was kicked off for the obscenity rather than the political message.

If someone was swearing in the cabin, were told to keep it down, but didn't, the airline would be right to kick them off. It's the same situation - I mean, should the woman have to wear her shirt inside out or should everyone else have to pluck their own eyes out?

No freedoms were trampled here. As albania noted, she had a choice.

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StanT

Because that might include 49% of the population depending on your interpretation of disrespect.

If the T-shirt has said "Meet the Folkers" she wouldn't have been tossed off the plane and the same message would have been implied.

SirLance

This isn't a free speech issue, you have the right to express your opinion in a public place. An airliner isn't a public place. No business or individual is required to provide a forum for you to express your ideas.

According to the second article, there were complaints from other passengers, and the complaint was about the obscene language, not about the political opnion expressed. If I had my kids on that flight, I would have complained, too.

The article says she's a lumber salesperson. Would she have worn that shirt on a sales call?

This is a 32 year old adult, who should know better than to use such language publicly.

I also have no sympathy for the airline. They should have denied her boarding in the first place, but they didn't because apparently no one had complained. Ordering her to turn her shirt inside out is ridiculous. How about asking her to get her carryon and change shirts, or letting her run to the gift shop to buy a shirt if she had checked her bag?

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Lasereth

This isn't a matter of free speech. This is a matter of being rude and offensive around others. The <B>bitch</B> needs to get over herself and take the fucking shirt off or turn it inside out. Any person that feels that they have the right to be offensive to others with the word "fuckers" on it deserves no sympathy. I'm proud of Southwest...at least someone is weeding out the assholes. It'd be different if it were in a damned adult club or something...but this is in the public.

-Lasereth

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pig

You know, I actually totally agree with y'all now. I think the best way for the airline to have handled it was to cause all this horseshit, instead letting the other however many passengers simply look at her with all the ridicule and scorn that she deserves for wearing such crap the age of 32. I think it's a fantastic precedent to set - and definately got rid of the problem in the most effective manner possible. I'll tell you this much. I personally find spandex and wife beater t-shirts offensive, and particularly when they endorse NASCAR events. Don't get me started on finger nail and toe nail polish. (Hello, my name is gaudy white trash!!!) It's disgusting and causes me to have violent gas. Therefore, I would like all people wearing such crap kicked off every plane, bus, and subway I ever get on. Period.

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flstf

The airline has the right to refuse service to the woman but I don't think they should have. I think businesses should have the right to refuse service to anyone for whatever reason but I don't think they should.

pig

Those same businesses that get my tax dollars and tax incentives? So, to be trite, let's say I'm black and it's a lunch counter, and I'm hungry and so forth...

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SirLance

If you're wearing a shirt that says "Meet the Fuckers" and there are reasonable complaints about it, yes, you should be asked to stop the offensive behavior or leave the establishment. Whether or not the business gets tax incentives, or whether or not you are black, or chinese, or amerind, or a one eyed one armed flying purple people eater, you should be asked to leave.

You are not alone in this world, and if you choose to inflict obsenity on those around you, don't be suprised if you are asked to stop or remove yourself from the situation. Your rights of "free speech" do not take precedence over other people's rights to quiet enjoyment of a business establishment. In fact, quite the opposite.

So, grow up. This isn't about race.

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flstf

Yeah, I know it is against the law, but I still think that a private business should be able to refuse service to anyone. Let the marketplace and bad publicity put them out of business if they screw up. Now government run enterprises are a different thing altogether.

cyrnel

Another possibility: even if the gate workers did see the shirt before boarding, they may not feel they have enough lattitude to deny boarding if it's a grey area. It could easily have taken time for the situation to filter up the chain, a couple complaints are heard, and by the time the captain found out and made a judgement, they were airborne. If this is the case, I'm sure they'll want to compensate the woman for that leg and provide better training for these situations.

Tshirt slipped, riiiight. They did try to work with her but it sounds like one or both sides had chips on their shoulders. That would have been the time for the policies & procedures manual. Let her know what will happen, then follow through.

About the apparent change in policy, it's unfortunate, but also quite possible the problem didn't arise until they were under way. When I fly my jacket/sweatshirt is usually worn and only comes off once I get to my seat. Nobody would see whatever nonsense I advertise until I'm stuffing the overhead bin or belting up, and if someone hates Adobe or whatever random tech tradeshow tshirt I'm wearing the complaints would take a while to flow.

Now, if I were wearing a VBASIC shirt or something, it would be nice if they slowed to 55, but the right thing would be to eject me at 35K feet. With any luck I'd hit other VBASIC users.

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sixate

Everyone in the United States has the right to wear that shirt, and every business in the United States has the right to deny service to people wearing vulgar clothes. I swear a ton, but I'm smart enough to know when not to do it.

Well, when you own every plane, train, bus, and every other vehicle of public transportation you can kick them off, but since you won't you have to deal with the rules that the business owners set forth, or if those types of people really bother you that bad you can remove yourself from all forms of public transpotation... See, there's a quick solution to most problems.

Pragma

I don't think it's a really great news story - and I think the airline was perfectly justified in doing so. I wouldn't particularly care if that woman was on one of my flights, even though I disagree with her views, but if an airline company gave me the decision between changing my shirt and not boarding a plane, I'd go get a different shirt, even if I had to run to a gift stand to buy one.

Now, there will be a segment of the population who gets really upset about this - and they're certainly allowed to be upset. However, will they really boycott Southwest? Probably not - but I'm cynical about consumer memory/outrage.

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maximusveritas

I think you have to pretty unbalanced if you're over 18 years old and wear a t-shirt with the F word on it. It sounds like she just wanted to create attention for herself and that's what she's doing now by going to the news and whining about it.

Grasshopper Green

Anyone doing/wearing/saying anything even slightly questionable in an airport or while on an airplane should expect repurcussions in the post 9/11 era. This lady knew that the possibility of stirring up a hornets nest was likely when she donned the shirt; she now has to live with the consequences. I really can't say if the reasons were vulgarity or political, but the airline was within it's rights to kick her off. However, I also think that the situation was handled poorly and is going to have backlash against Southwest.

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theguyondacouch

She was an idiot for wearing such a shirt and not expecting repercussions. The airline is entitled to do as they please regarding dress code etc.

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Jinn

I'd sue.

Would you feel differently if you got in a cab with a shirt that said "Free Tibet" on it.. the cabby drove you 150 miles into the middle of nowhere (half your destination) and then dropped you off? He suddenly realized that he was offended by your T-shirt? You wouldn't be pissed that you might have to spend additional money to get to your destination?

Denial of service is one thing, stranding a person is quite another. It's certainly not a criminal or illegal thing by the airline, but I'd certainly sue in civil court if it cost me a substantial amount of extra money.

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Cynthetiq

there was a mall in upstate NY that last year asked someone to leave because they wore an offensive Tshirt. You try to wear that stuff at Disneyland they'll show you the door if they didn't catch you with it on the way in.

Ther is a large portion of the public domain that free speech is not as free as you think. Try getting a group together in Central Park in NYC. You may not get the venue, but you'll get some semblance of a place to assemble and have free speech.

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albania

This is a different situation in a cab the driver would have seen the shirt and made an instantaneous decision, anyone that does otherwise would probably be mentally unbalanced and is more likely to deserve commitment papers rather than a lawsuit. In any case you can stop a cab anywhere in the road between where you start and end, you can't do that with a plane. It would be logical that the people who let her in the flight made a mistake because they were not clear as to what their duties were in the situation, and that in the flight the responsible person who knew what to do noticed it and gave the woman logical options with which the problem could be resolved, she decided to choose the one that left her stranded. You can't be pissed about what you choose. If the cab driver just left you there he gave you no choice which isn’t at all what this is about.
So in short yes i would be pissed but i don't think it has a lot to do with the present issue.

Gilda

Their house, their rules.

The method of enforcement here I have a big problem with, and I have personal reasons for never again flying Southwest, but they certainly have the right to determine a proper dress code and to enforce that dress code.

Banning obscene language is actually pretty consistent with the way the movies are edited, which tend to be, on all airlines that I know of, very similar to edited for tv versions, or possible a bit more conservative than that. Any kind of disruption on a plane can quickly turn into very bad news for a lot of people, so it makes sense to have very strict rules and enforce them.

Which isn't to say that I don't hate Southwest; I do, and I think they handled this very poorly, but they had the right to do what they did.

Gilda

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ngdawg

* dons her Dale, Jr tshirt and asks, 'who you calling white trash?' This is not about what 'you' like. This woman wore an offensive language tshirt and had I been travelling with my kids, I too would have complained, and probably loudly.
On a recent flight, the girl sitting next to me took out hand cream that had a strong perfume. I am extremely sensitive to scents-most make me choke and this did. When she took it out again after a half hour, totally oblivious to my earlier choking episode, I asked her to please not open it again, I am allergic, but she had started to open it and, although she apologized and put it away, for another 20 minutes, I choked, not only making myself uncomfortable, but disturbing the quiet for other passengers.
Planes, buses, trains are businesses that cater to multitudes of people-not just one, and the comfort of all should come first before the convenience of one. A little common sense and common courtesy should be in order. Always seems to be the ones with no hint of dignity or propriety are the first to cry indignance and insult and call a lawyer.

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docbungle

I'd maybe wear a shirt like that to a party, but not on the street or for chrissakes in an airport. Unless I was planning on getting into a lot of fights that day.

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