The FBI versus Porn - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Redlemon · 10-11-2005, 01:01 PM

We already had the thread FBI forces SuicideGirls to remove "indecent" pics. There was much discussion over how real this was.

Well, here's Phase 2: Max Hardcore Offices Raided by FBI; Servers, Tapes Seized

Quote:

Wednesday, October 5, 2005

ALTA DENA, Calif. – The offices of Max Hardcore’s Max World Entertainment were raided Wednesday under the authority of the Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section of the Justice Department.

The FBI seized five video titles, Hardcore’s attorney Jeffrey Douglas told XBiz, including “Pure Max #16,” (European version), “Max Hardcore Fists of Fury #3,” “Max Hardcore Extreme Schoolgirls #6,” (European version), “Max Hardcore Golden Guzzlers #5” and “Max Hardcore Golden Guzzlers #6.”

Additionally, the FBI seized all servers belonging to Hardcore with the purpose of copying and returning them, Douglas said. It is not yet known what other office items have been taken as the investigation is ongoing.

By Thursday afternoon, Hardcore's servers had been returned and the website was active.

Hardcore was not present at the time of the raid, and according to Douglas, is presently attending a trade show in Barcelona, Spain.

Douglas said this is the first federal obscenity investigation involving Hardcore and is in any way related to 2257 record-keeping enforcement.

“Once again the government is wasting tax dollars and otherwise invaluable law enforcement resources to try to force a minority view of morality on all of America,” Hardcore said in a statement. “Five of my movies have been targeted by the federal ‘prude’ patrol. There is no indication of any crime to be alleged except obscenity. If indicted, I will fight to protect my liberty as well as the liberty of consenting adults to watch other adults engage in lawful, consensual, pleasurable sexual action. Shame on the Department of Justice. I am proud of my movies and of those who sell them.”

In 2001, Hardcore was prosecuted by the city of Los Angeles for obscenity, which was not resolved until 2004 with a company plea to a public nuisance.

Born Paul Little in 1956, Hardcore’s films have long been considered some of the most controversial in the industry.

And Phase 3: Red Rose Stories Closed by FBI

Quote:

Friday, October 7, 2005

PITTSBURGH — Online erotic stories host Red Rose Stories announced on its site Friday that the FBI had forced it to shut down.

According to a posting on the site’s main page, Red Rose Stories is facing obscenity charges for posting stories that allegedly involved bestiality, water sports, scat, bondage and domination, S&M, slavery, threesomes, orgies and sex with children.

According to Rosie, who runs the site, such topics have opened the door to her prosecution.

“Trust me on this. I found out the hard way. I never thought I'd be in trouble for the written word," Rosie told XBiz via email. “I had no pictures of a sexual nature on my site, adult or otherwise. [It seems] the only legal sex stories are those that involve a man and a woman consenting to missionary position sex in a dark room.”

Rosie said officials came to her house when she was not home and seized a number of items.

The men in black took all of my computer equipment and many of my diskettes, and have access to all my files and site information,” she wrote. “I am sorry to inform all interested parties that Red Rose Stories is a dead site.”

Rosie said that chat services on the site, as well as some parts to its forum, would remain open, and suggested subscribers contact the Pittsburgh FBI office if they “want to ask the feds for a refund.”

As of this writing, calls by XBiz to the office were not returned.

News of the site’s closure comes just days after the offices of Max Hardcore’s Max World Entertainment were raided under the authority of the Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section of the Justice Department, and little more than a week after the FBI launched an anti-obscenity squad at the behest of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to increase obscenity prosecutions throughout the country.

And Phase 4: NowThatsFuckedUp Creator Arrested

Quote:

Monday, October 10, 2005

LAKELAND, Fla. — Chris Wilson, the owner and operator of amateur wife and girlfriend site NowThatsFuckedUp.com, was arrested at his Florida home Friday on charges of felony wholesale distribution of obscene material.

According to sheriff’s officials in Polk County, Wilson is being charged with 300 misdemeanor counts and one felony count of wholesale distribution of obscene material, all of which reportedly relate to the pornographic material on Wilson’s site, not the controversial war images that have garnered so much attention in recent weeks.

Wilson’s site received global attention after allegations arose that U.S. soldiers were using it to trade photographs of dead Afghan and Iraqi civilians for free memberships to the site and access to pornographic content.

“Obscenity only applies to sex, not violence,” First Amendment attorney Lawrence Walters, who is representing Wilson, told XBiz. “You can chop people up but you can’t love them.”

Just last week, the army ruled that its soldiers could not be held accountable for the images, many of which showed burned or otherwise mutilated bodies posed next to people dressed in what looked like army uniforms. Islamic groups, who said the photographs dehumanized the Islamic world, blasted the Army’s decision.

Walters said he doesn’t yet know what specific images Wilson is being charged for.

“They’ve apparently got some kind of images they pulled from the site, but they haven’t shared those with us yet. My guess is they’ve selected whatever they can find that they think violates community standards in the county,” Walters said.

Walters said the most important aspect of the case right now is that his client did not post any of the pictures on his site. The attorney compared Wilson’s arrest with the government arresting the telephone company over what people might say over the phone.

“Is Sprint held responsible for what people say over the phone lines?” he asked.

Whether or not there is any political motivation for the arrest is a central concern, according to Walters, who worries that the Army images signaled his client out for political reasons.

“We want to know where this complaint is coming from and why Wilson was chosen among the thousands of webmasters out there,” Walters said. “Given the fact that he had pictures of war dead on his site we have significant concerns that there is some political motivation here.”

Currently Wilson is being charged with the 300 separate accounts individually, which Walters said requires 300 separate bonds and makes it logistically very difficult to get him out of jail.

All off of the same news site, but that was just the easiest place to gather the news. The war on porn is on again. This isn't a voluntary removal of content, like the Suicide Girls was. This is raids and physical removal of servers.

Glory's Sun · 10-11-2005, 01:09 PM

Didn't this happen in the Reagan administration also? I can understand this happening for people distributing child pr0n or whatever, but for something a tad controversial .. is well.. controversial.

Wonder if this has anything to do with all the pressure on the US to give up control (or part of it) of the net.

Coppertop · 10-11-2005, 01:09 PM

Doesn't the FBI have anything better to do?

canuckguy · 10-11-2005, 01:10 PM

Why state a raid on porn? After reading those, seems more like a raid on kiddie/illegal porn?

Glory's Sun · 10-11-2005, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1975

Why state a raid on porn? After reading those, seems more like a raid on kiddie/illegal porn?

correct me here.. but I didn't see anything about kiddie porn mentioned.

There was the one statement about red whatever having stories about having sex with children but there were no images. I don't mind that being taken down.. but the others.. didn't say anything about kiddie pr0n

canuckguy · 10-11-2005, 01:16 PM

imo stories about sex with children is kiddie porn.

Glory's Sun · 10-11-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1975

imo stories about sex with children is kiddie porn.

ok.. I'll agree with that.

what do you think about the other incedents though?

canuckguy · 10-11-2005, 01:18 PM

Before I get ripped to shreds as this forum likes to do, I will add that if it was illegal purely, kiddie stuff, rape (real), (is scat illegal?) then its good that the fbi did it. But if the raids were just for borderline stupid bondage stuff then its wrong.

sorry responded before I saw your reply!

canuckguy · 10-11-2005, 01:19 PM

Are there not so many more other things the fbi could be spending there time and money on?

Glory's Sun · 10-11-2005, 01:20 PM

I wasn't ripping you.. trust me.

I was just curious as to what your input to the other raids were.

feelgood · 10-11-2005, 01:27 PM

Keyword here people: Obscene

Quote:

The FBI seized five video titles, Hardcore’s attorney Jeffrey Douglas told XBiz, including “Pure Max #16,” (European version), “Max Hardcore Fists of Fury #3,” “Max Hardcore Extreme Schoolgirls #6,” (European version), “Max Hardcore Golden Guzzlers #5” and “Max Hardcore Golden Guzzlers #6.”

Nothing really specific here except that most of the movie sounds extreme hardcore compared to typical standard of the industry, then again, it's not really specific.

Quote:

According to a posting on the site’s main page, Red Rose Stories is facing obscenity charges for posting stories that allegedly involved bestiality, water sports, scat, bondage and domination, S&M, slavery, threesomes, orgies and sex with children.

All the keywords here is already mentioned, do I need to point out anymore as to why this site got shut down? Although, the owner did make a good point about how written word gets her arrested? Doesn't that violate the right for free speech or whichever amendment it is? Besides that, I'm gonna have to side with the FBI on this one, it's kinda werid to read things about children engaged in variety of sex.

Quote:

According to sheriff’s officials in Polk County, Wilson is being charged with 300 misdemeanor counts and one felony count of wholesale distribution of obscene material, all of which reportedly relate to the pornographic material on Wilson’s site, not the controversial war images that have garnered so much attention in recent weeks.

Wilson’s site received global attention after allegations arose that U.S. soldiers were using it to trade photographs of dead Afghan and Iraqi civilians for free memberships to the site and access to pornographic content.

I'm with the FBI on this one, why the hell would you choose to trade pictures of dead human beings for free porn memberships just so that you can do some business in the army's tent on the computer? Plus, the FBI didn't arrest Wilson because he had some werid porno, I wouldn't chalk this one up for another battle between FBI and the porno industry.

After reading first about the suicide girl's site being shutdown b/c of the so called "war on porn" I was kinda skeptic about as to what really was going on but now that the 3 stories have been brought up, I'm siding with the government in this series of attack against porn websites where most of them are just simply too werid but who am I to say what's werid and what isn't?

biznatch · 10-11-2005, 01:30 PM

OK I agree for all the illegal stuff that the porn industry should be fought against, including underage material, rape, etc.
However if its "normal" (meaning legal) porn, than FBI should rather be finding Osama or getting rid of crack on the streets

Glory's Sun · 10-11-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feelgood

After reading first about the suicide girl's site being shutdown b/c of the so called "war on porn" I was kinda skeptic about as to what really was going on but now that the 3 stories have been brought up, I'm siding with the government in this series of attack against porn websites where most of them are just simply too werid but who am I to say what's werid and what isn't?

I think you make an interesting point here. Who really <b>is</b> to say what's weird? Unless it's something illegal (child porn etc) then there really shouldn't be any raids going on. I don't really see how porn is hurting anyone and I certainly don't see how it compares to terrorism (which is what the FBI should be concentrating on). Now I must point out that I don't even watch porn that much. I'm not standing up for the industry out of bias, I'm standing up for the industry on principle.

canuckguy · 10-11-2005, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

I wasn't ripping you.. trust me.

I was just curious as to what your input to the other raids were.

hehe, i did not mean you directly, just recently most threads are leaning more towards flame wars than actual debate/conversations lately.

777 · 10-11-2005, 02:16 PM

This is all rather sudden. Next thing you know, Susy Bright will have here home raided, shortly before all the anime and hentai sites are taken down.

docbungle · 10-11-2005, 02:31 PM

I don't understand. Since when is "being obscene" illegal? Edgy porn like this has been around for as long as VHS has been around. When did it become "illegal?"

stevie667 · 10-11-2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

When did it become "illegal?"

When the conservative christian forces came into power...

Coppertop · 10-11-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1975

imo stories about sex with children is kiddie porn.

So would you say a story about gangbangers shooting each other equals murder? Fortunately, the constitution protects us from such nonsense.

In theory.

canuckguy · 10-11-2005, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

So would you say a story about gangbangers shooting each other equals murder? Fortunately, the constitution protects us from such nonsense.

In theory.

a story about murder is not actual murder. but stories about sex with children written for the sole purpose of arousing someone, is wrong in my opinion.

The_wall · 10-11-2005, 04:34 PM

I'm sorry but I just don't see the logic behind making any kind of story illegal. Now if the story included pictures I can understand, but if its just a story then imo is should be legal, no matter what the content.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the people that write those disturbing stories, but rather there right to write those stories.

Redlemon · 10-12-2005, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

I don't understand. Since when is "being obscene" illegal? Edgy porn like this has been around for as long as VHS has been around. When did it become "illegal?"

Obscenity has never been covered by the First Amendment, and therefore it can be regulated. I've been doing a bit more research, and I think I have a better idea of what is going on.

First, what is "obscenity"? Since 1973, the US defines it using the <a href="http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=clc0cl12ok3tl?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Miller+test&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a">Miller test</a>.

Quote:

The Miller test is the United States Supreme Court's test for determining whether speech or expression can be labeled obscene, in which case it is not protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and can be prohibited.

The Miller test was developed in the 1973 case Miller v. California. It has three parts:

* Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
* Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by applicable state law,
* Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

Pretty vague, right? Back in 2003, the US took on Extreme Associates for a "video called Forced Entry, which includes depictions of rape, murder, suffocation, beatings and urination in sexual contexts". Further information about this case here; the interesting part is that:

Quote:

During a hearing in November 2004, Zicari's lawyer argued that the right to privacy gave individuals the constitutional right to view offending materials in private, a right which cannot be meaningfully exercised without a corresponding right of companies to distribute such materials. The prosecution countered that an individual's right to privacy is unrelated to a company's right to commercial distribution.

On January 20 2005, the District Court judge dropped the charges, agreeing with the defense that the Federal anti-obscenity statutes are unconstitutional. The Department of Justice announced on February 16 2005 that it will appeal the ruling.

Which is where the case stands now. It appears that the US is trying to bolster their case that the Miller Rule is still valid, and is prosecuting multiple cases to try to restore Miller.

All of the materials that have been cited in these cases aren't stuff that I would want to watch. But, where does the line of legality get drawn? Any blood? Anything nonconsensual? Anything with multiple partners? Anything gay? Anything that is not missionary sex between a married heterosexual couple for the purpose of procreation?

Poppinjay · 10-12-2005, 05:42 AM

So is Lolita kiddie pr0n?

And what is scat? I'm afraid to google it for fear I'll end up with something on my screen that makes me regret having a penis.

Glory's Sun · 10-12-2005, 06:02 AM

scat is poop

Anyway, to answer the second post by redlemon- I fear that if the current adminstration has any say-so over the matter, anything other than missionary sex between a married heterosexual copule for the purpose of procreation (whew that's a long ass sentence) will be found obscene. I think if Millers law was still applicable, and they took a census, they'd find that most of the movies being viewed wouldn't offend the majority of people out there. However, that in itself creates an issue. Who do they poll? Do they poll only church people? Do they poll only those who watch porn? I think if there was a balance of those two then they movies still wouldn't be found obscene... but in this crazy country that's becoming more and more fascist every day.. who's to say what's really going to happen.

yeah I like to throw the fascist word around..

Redlemon · 10-12-2005, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

So is Lolita kiddie pr0n?

No, because it passes the Miller Test: it has "serious literary value".

guthmund · 10-12-2005, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1975

a story about murder is not actual murder. but stories about sex with children written for the sole purpose of arousing someone, is wrong in my opinion.

And a story about sex with children isn't actual sex with children.

You and I may find it distasteful, even reprehensible, but I don't think we should just outright ban that which we find offensive nor punish those that partake.

denim · 10-12-2005, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1975

a story about murder is not actual murder. but stories about sex with children written for the sole purpose of arousing someone, is wrong in my opinion.

Fine. And I happen to agree with you on that. I also feel that B&D is wrong, that stories about forced slavery is wrong, that scat is wrong. But fantasy is just that. It's usually not desired to have it actually happen.

We have this thing called "free speech". That means you can say what you like, within very wide limits (no yelling "fire" in a theater).

If obscenity was illegal, I'd let them know that I consider President Bush and five of the nine Supreme Court "justices" obscene, and have them removed from office retroactively on that basis.

We are not guaranteed a life free of offense. This is a key concept that many people "forget".

mrklixx · 10-12-2005, 06:15 AM

If they weren't already dead, these guys would be in big trouble.

canuckguy · 10-12-2005, 06:18 AM

miller test? I think i understand that, i remember some fucking dick up here had got arrested for writing sick stories about sex with kids, he fought the charges saying that if his stories was pedo material that some old old old paints that our government had on display were also kiddie porn as they showed two kids naked drying themselves by a fire. stupid.

porn as been around a long time, i don't think the government wants to rid the world of all porn. this is just the same as when the government wants to ban say assault weapons and people freak out saying there trying to take ALL guns away, totally ignoring common sense that they want nothing to do with your colt, only the rocket launcher you've got out in the garage. no matter what any government does someone will be right there to cry foul no matter what they do.

canuckguy · 10-12-2005, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denim

Fine. And I happen to agree with you on that. I also feel that B&D is wrong, that stories about forced slavery is wrong, that scat is wrong. But fantasy is just that. It's usually not desired to have it actually happen.

We have this thing called "free speech". That means you can say what you like, within very wide limits (no yelling "fire" in a theater).

If obscenity was illegal, I'd let them know that I consider President Bush and five of the nine Supreme Court "justices" obscene, and have them removed from office retroactively on that basis.

We are not guaranteed a life free of offense. This is a key concept that many people "forget".

I agree the line is very thin, unless there are already laws saying you can't make or having "this" type of porn then I don't think the government should step in....unless its real rape, non consenting adults, or anything to do with children. I don't think we need graphic stories about sex with children to fuel pedos. As for scat, or whatever b&d, if they people made the movie or pictures were consenting to it, and there is law that says its illegal, then leave it. The fbi should be fighting real crime.

canuckguy · 10-12-2005, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthmund

And a story about sex with children isn't actual sex with children.

You and I may find it distasteful, even reprehensible, but I don't think we should just outright ban that which we find offensive nor punish those that partake.

By the way, jay.

Scat is 'shit-play' as far as I know....

yes, a story about sex with children again, is not sex with children, but non literary stories about sex with children written for the purpose of getting people off, well that is just wrong and should be illegal.

Redlemon · 10-12-2005, 06:33 AM

If anyone is curious, previous to the Miller test, these were the other standards for obscentiy in the US:

Quote:

* Hicklin test: the effect of isolated passages upon the most susceptible persons. (British common law, cited in Regina v. Hicklin, 1868. LR 3 QB 360 - overturned when Michigan tried to outlaw all printed matter that would 'corrupt the morals of youth' in Butler v. State of Michigan 352 U.S. 380 (1957))
* Wepplo: If material has a substantial tendency to deprave or corrupt its readers by inciting lascivious thoughts or arousing lustful desires. (People v. Wepplo, 78 Cal.App.2d Supp. 959, 178 P.2d 853).
* Roth Standard: All ideas having even the slightest redeeming social importance - unorthodox ideas, controversial ideas, even ideas hateful to the prevailing climate of opinion - have the full protection of the guaranties, unless excludable because they encroach upon the limited area of more important interests. Roth v. United States 354 U.S. 476 (1957) - overturned by Miller
* Jacobellis: "community standards" applicable to an obscenity are national, not local standards. Jacobellis v. Ohio 378 US 184 (1964) - famous quote: "I know it when I see it [hardcore pornography] and this is not it".
* Roth-Memoirs Test: (a) the dominant theme of the material taken as a whole appeals to a prurient interest in sex; (b) the material is patently offensive because it affronts contemporary community standards relating to the description or representation of sexual matters; and (c) the material is utterly without redeeming social value. (A Book Named John Cleland's Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure v. Attorney General of Massachusetts, 383 U.S. 413 (1966))

(source)

Poppinjay · 10-12-2005, 06:47 AM

Thanks to those who have informed what scat is.

And shame on you.

docbungle · 10-12-2005, 06:50 AM

Redlemon,
Thanks for the Miller Test post. Interesting.

I find it extremely disturbing that the FBI is raiding offices and these people are being arrested for doing something that is not against the law.

guthmund · 10-12-2005, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1975

porn as been around a long time, i don't think the government wants to rid the world of all porn. this is just the same as when the government wants to ban say assault weapons and people freak out saying there trying to take ALL guns away, totally ignoring common sense that they want nothing to do with your colt, only the rocket launcher you've got out in the garage. no matter what any government does someone will be right there to cry foul no matter what they do.

As long as I'm not doing anything illegal with the rocket launcher why does the government care so much? Shouldn't I be punished for the crime done, not the crime that could be?

Quote:

yes, a story about sex with children again, is not sex with children, but non literary stories about sex with children written for the purpose of getting people off, well that is just wrong and should be illegal.

What's a 'literary' story? Once the story is put to paper isn't it considered by definition, literature?

What about sex as children? Is that permissable? Should we string Stephen King up for talking about children and sex in It ? I'm just curious where you draw the line. Is it illegal if it's inflammatory? If it gets 'people off?' What about Fight Club? No child sex, but it certainly puts some folks' underwear in a bunch. Can we get rid of that too?

Listen, rhetoric aside, it all boils down to this. This deviant urge is going to express itself and is going to need to be released sometime...somehow...somewhere. To be perfectly honest, I'd rather have some potential offender writing the shit and jerking off to it rather than have him out there actually molesting kids.

Coppertop · 10-12-2005, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1975

yes, a story about sex with children again, is not sex with children, but non literary stories about sex with children written for the purpose of getting people off, well that is just wrong and should be illegal.

I think idiocy is just wrong and should be illegal.

See, where is the line drawn and by whom? Luckily, the "morality" of the few does not dictate the laws for all.

Sweetpea · 10-12-2005, 09:24 AM

Well, i must say this put a damper on my morning... but i thank you for posting it, it's good to know when our country is again headed in the wrong direction....

I have often wondered when the truly conservative right was going to start adressing such 'obscene' things like people enjoying sex again, with MY tax dollars... it's happened in the past, i just hope the witchhunt will stop earlier than later... It seems like such things as some children in America not getting enough food, seniors not getting the medical supplies they need, lack of truly good education systems.... oh yes... all those pale in comparison to GASP! Porn....

Sweetpea

meembo · 10-12-2005, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthmund

... a story about sex with children isn't actual sex with children.

You and I may find it distasteful, even reprehensible, but I don't think we should just outright ban that which we find offensive nor punish those that partake.

I think written stories about child porn (and rape, and incest, and other turn-ons for deviants) are fucked up, but I also think the written stories have no real criminal victims, and I also think that banning any written word is wrong and unconstitutional and undemocratic. I wonder to what degree this is attributable to Alberto Gonzales, the president's fairly recent Attorney General appointee. Republican presidents seem to pick the strangest people for Attorney General

I also have to point out that all the articles linked were from Xbiz, a newsletter representing the porn industry. I would like to see articles from other non-involved third party sources before I made up my mind on what I believe to be the facts in each case.

canuckguy · 10-12-2005, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

I think idiocy is just wrong and should be illegal.

See, where is the line drawn and by whom? Luckily, the "morality" of the few does not dictate the laws for all.

so now i am an idiot for thinking they way i do, or different from YOUR view. thanks, great flame.

if i am reading your post the wrong way then please ignore my reply.

canuckguy · 10-12-2005, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthmund

As long as I'm not doing anything illegal with the rocket launcher why does the government care so much? Shouldn't I be punished for the crime done, not the crime that could be?

What's a 'literary' story? Once the story is put to paper isn't it considered by definition, literature?

What about sex as children? Is that permissable? Should we string Stephen King up for talking about children and sex in It ? I'm just curious where you draw the line. Is it illegal if it's inflammatory? If it gets 'people off?' What about Fight Club? No child sex, but it certainly puts some folks' underwear in a bunch. Can we get rid of that too?

Listen, rhetoric aside, it all boils down to this. This deviant urge is going to express itself and is going to need to be released sometime...somehow...somewhere. To be perfectly honest, I'd rather have some potential offender writing the shit and jerking off to it rather than have him out there actually molesting kids.

So a pedo reading or looking at child porn is gonna stop or hopefully discourage him/her from raping or harming a child? Should we then have people dress sexy and walking around town to discourage people from raping people? I don't think it works either way.

flstf · 10-12-2005, 10:00 AM

I agree with meembo, the written word should be off limits to obsceniity charges. Also, any porn that does not involve real children or obvious illegal activity like real snuff films, real rape films, etc.., should be off limits as well.

I followed the links to Max Hardcore's website and his stuff is sometimes disgusting but is just play-acting make believe. I imagine if his stuff can pass the legal litmus test then most other porn producers should be OK. If they manage to confict him then I imagine they will be encouraged to bring charges to less disgusting material.

10-11-2005, 02:16 PM	#15 (permalink)
777 drawn and redrawn Location: Some where in Southern California	This is all rather sudden. Next thing you know, Susy Bright will have here home raided, shortly before all the anime and hentai sites are taken down. __________________ "I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip." Roger Zelazny

10-11-2005, 02:31 PM	#16 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	I don't understand. Since when is "being obscene" illegal? Edgy porn like this has been around for as long as VHS has been around. When did it become "illegal?" __________________ Bad Luck City

10-11-2005, 04:34 PM	#20 (permalink)
The_wall Psycho Location: Rhode Island biatches!	I'm sorry but I just don't see the logic behind making any kind of story illegal. Now if the story included pictures I can understand, but if its just a story then imo is should be legal, no matter what the content. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the people that write those disturbing stories, but rather there right to write those stories. __________________ "We do what we like and we like what we do!"~andrew Wk Procrastinate now, don't put off to the last minute.

10-12-2005, 05:42 AM	#22 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	So is Lolita kiddie pr0n? And what is scat? I'm afraid to google it for fear I'll end up with something on my screen that makes me regret having a penis. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

10-12-2005, 06:15 AM	#27 (permalink)
mrklixx President Rick Location: location location	If they weren't already dead, these guys would be in big trouble. __________________ This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent. This is not a link - Do not click here I hate animated avatars.

10-11-2005, 01:09 PM	#2 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Didn't this happen in the Reagan administration also? I can understand this happening for people distributing child pr0n or whatever, but for something a tad controversial .. is well.. controversial. Wonder if this has anything to do with all the pressure on the US to give up control (or part of it) of the net.

10-11-2005, 01:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	Doesn't the FBI have anything better to do?

10-11-2005, 01:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
canuckguy I read your emails. Location: earth	Why state a raid on porn? After reading those, seems more like a raid on kiddie/illegal porn?

10-11-2005, 01:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
canuckguy I read your emails. Location: earth	imo stories about sex with children is kiddie porn.

10-11-2005, 01:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
canuckguy I read your emails. Location: earth	Before I get ripped to shreds as this forum likes to do, I will add that if it was illegal purely, kiddie stuff, rape (real), (is scat illegal?) then its good that the fbi did it. But if the raids were just for borderline stupid bondage stuff then its wrong. sorry responded before I saw your reply!

10-11-2005, 01:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
canuckguy I read your emails. Location: earth	Are there not so many more other things the fbi could be spending there time and money on?

10-11-2005, 01:20 PM	#10 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I wasn't ripping you.. trust me. I was just curious as to what your input to the other raids were.

10-11-2005, 01:30 PM	#12 (permalink)
biznatch Junkie Location: France	OK I agree for all the illegal stuff that the porn industry should be fought against, including underage material, rape, etc. However if its "normal" (meaning legal) porn, than FBI should rather be finding Osama or getting rid of crack on the streets

10-12-2005, 06:02 AM	#23 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	scat is poop Anyway, to answer the second post by redlemon- I fear that if the current adminstration has any say-so over the matter, anything other than missionary sex between a married heterosexual copule for the purpose of procreation (whew that's a long ass sentence) will be found obscene. I think if Millers law was still applicable, and they took a census, they'd find that most of the movies being viewed wouldn't offend the majority of people out there. However, that in itself creates an issue. Who do they poll? Do they poll only church people? Do they poll only those who watch porn? I think if there was a balance of those two then they movies still wouldn't be found obscene... but in this crazy country that's becoming more and more fascist every day.. who's to say what's really going to happen. yeah I like to throw the fascist word around..

10-12-2005, 06:18 AM	#28 (permalink)
canuckguy I read your emails. Location: earth	miller test? I think i understand that, i remember some fucking dick up here had got arrested for writing sick stories about sex with kids, he fought the charges saying that if his stories was pedo material that some old old old paints that our government had on display were also kiddie porn as they showed two kids naked drying themselves by a fire. stupid. porn as been around a long time, i don't think the government wants to rid the world of all porn. this is just the same as when the government wants to ban say assault weapons and people freak out saying there trying to take ALL guns away, totally ignoring common sense that they want nothing to do with your colt, only the rocket launcher you've got out in the garage. no matter what any government does someone will be right there to cry foul no matter what they do.

10-12-2005, 06:47 AM	#32 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Thanks to those who have informed what scat is. And shame on you. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

10-12-2005, 06:50 AM	#33 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	Redlemon, Thanks for the Miller Test post. Interesting. I find it extremely disturbing that the FBI is raiding offices and these people are being arrested for doing something that is not against the law. __________________ Bad Luck City

10-12-2005, 09:24 AM	#36 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	Well, i must say this put a damper on my morning... but i thank you for posting it, it's good to know when our country is again headed in the wrong direction.... I have often wondered when the truly conservative right was going to start adressing such 'obscene' things like people enjoying sex again, with MY tax dollars... it's happened in the past, i just hope the witchhunt will stop earlier than later... It seems like such things as some children in America not getting enough food, seniors not getting the medical supplies they need, lack of truly good education systems.... oh yes... all those pale in comparison to GASP! Porn.... Sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

10-12-2005, 10:00 AM	#40 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I agree with meembo, the written word should be off limits to obsceniity charges. Also, any porn that does not involve real children or obvious illegal activity like real snuff films, real rape films, etc.., should be off limits as well. I followed the links to Max Hardcore's website and his stuff is sometimes disgusting but is just play-acting make believe. I imagine if his stuff can pass the legal litmus test then most other porn producers should be OK. If they manage to confict him then I imagine they will be encouraged to bring charges to less disgusting material.