Immagrant deported for telling the truth - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Slyboots · 10-08-2005, 08:25 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...aco_s_plight_1

Quote:

MARSHALL, Mo. - From the Little League fields to the Habitat for Humanity boardroom, everyone in this central Missouri town seemed to know Manuel "Paco" Lopez.

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A devoted father and civic volunteer, the Mexican immigrant served as a translator at the local hospital, schools, crime scenes and anywhere else people asked.

So when police asked for help interrogating a Spanish-speaking murder suspect, he dutifully agreed — even though it meant revealing he was actually an illegal immigrant named Francisco Xavier Inzunza.

Once Marshall police reported him, immigration officers made the 43-year-old an offer: work as a confidential informant for the federal immigration agency in exchange for an annual work permit.

But his informant career was a spectacular flop. Drug dealers and fake identification peddlers didn't want much to do with a church leader and school volunteer. Soon after the murder suspect's conviction in 2002, Inzunza was informed he faced deportation from the place he has called home for a dozen years.

The Marshall mayor, police chief, school superintendent — even the prosecutor who Inzunza helped — pledged to support a man who for years hid his true identity.

"Most of the illegal aliens stay in the background. They don't get out," said Chuck Hird, a retired Marshall meatpacking plant manager. "Paco was different. That's what got him in trouble."

Sixteen supporters appeared at a Kansas City immigration hearing in September, prepared to ask a federal judge to let Inzunza stay. The judge instead postponed the hearing until February 2007 because of a case backlog, but Inzunza's supporters suspect judicial sympathy played a role.

Even Gregory Gagne, spokesman for the Justice Department's executive office for immigration review in Washington, reacted with surprise. He said the delay was longer than normal.

In an interview in the cramped apartment he shares with his wife, Suzy, and sons Francisco Javier, 17, and Anthony, 10, Inzunza said he has no regrets about helping Saline County prosecutors convict Juan Antonio Rodriguez of stabbing a housemate to death.

"I did it because it was the right thing to do," he said. "They needed me."

Inzunza said he realized he would have to testify in court and give his real name under oath, so he preemptively told police of his illegal status.

With a growing Hispanic population lured to the town of 12,000 by jobs at a pair of meatpacking plants, plenty of non-Spanish speakers needed Inzunza. He helped the children of immigrants enroll in school, calmed mothers in premature labor at Fitzgibbon Hospital and ran out of the house in the middle of the night to help state troopers at an Interstate 70 accident scene. All for free, and always without complaint.

"Paco is not only an asset to our school, but to the city of Marshall as well," wrote Derek Lark, an assistant principal at the middle school where Inzunza works as a custodian, in a letter to the immigration judge. "We would be worse off without him here. He is the type of person we need more of in America."

Inzunza came to the United States in 1991, drifting on an inner tube across the Rio Grande near Ciudad Juarez, Mexico. His wife and their oldest son had arrived in America on a temporary tourist visa, and the family moved to Marshall in 1993.

"This is home," said Suzy Inzunza. "They accept us."

To remain in the United States, Inzunza must prove his deportation would cause an "exceptional and extremely unusual hardship" on his youngest son, who was born in Marshall and is an American citizen.

"It doesn't matter how good a person he is, or what a difference he's made in the state of Missouri," said Angela Ferguson, Inzunza's attorney.

Inzunza said he is grateful, and humbled, by the extensive support from his neighbors.

"You can live 20 years in one community, and if you don't do anything, nobody knows about you," he said. "The people have been so supportive for one reason ... they know I've been doing the right things for the community."

After being a pillar in this small town community, he gets deported for telling the truth? The guy has done so much for that lil town and the way the system is treating him is pretty fucked up if you asked me.

politicophile · 10-08-2005, 08:35 PM

Man Breaks Immigration Laws, Is Deported

Regardless of what a good guy he was, Inzunza was still an illegal immigrant: he deserved to be deported.

shakran · 10-08-2005, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slyboots

After being a pillar in this small town community, he gets deported for telling the truth? The guy has done so much for that lil town and the way the system is treating him is pretty fucked up if you asked me.

No, he got deported because he was here illegally. If he wished to be a pillar in the community he would not have broken the immigration law and snuck into this country, stealing its services (keep in mind that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes lest they get caught, which means all the public services (roads, etc) that you pay for, they're using for free.

If he wished to be a part of this community that he was so purportedly a pillar in, then he should have maybe tried going the legal route.

If they're here illegally, they've already shown that they flaunt our laws. Why do we want them here? I'm all for immigration, but that favorable attitude does not extend to criminals.

martinguerre · 10-08-2005, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

illegal immigrants do not pay taxes lest they get caught, which means all the public services (roads, etc) that you pay for, they're using for free.

That's not true.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0321/p02s01-ussc.html

Why repeat something so adamantly when it's demonstrably false?

Rekna · 10-08-2005, 08:58 PM

actually most illegals do pay taxes from what I understand. The IRS knows a lot about who the illegals are but they are forbiden to share that information with anyone.

djtestudo · 10-08-2005, 09:38 PM

One question I'm a little hazy about.

If you're already here illegally, what exactly can you do to become legal while staying?

martinguerre · 10-08-2005, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

One question I'm a little hazy about.

If you're already here illegally, what exactly can you do to become legal while staying?

Currently, it's rare. But your status can be adjusted. Refugees (in theory) are allowed to arrive first, file for status and then their case is reviewed. But this is why the Coast Guard intercepts Cubans *before* they hit land so that none of that applies.

In some cases, a "Humanitarian Parole" is granted to someone who arrived without inspection (the technical term for border crossing). These are exceedingly rare, and are a catchall visa for special circumstances. Often granted in conjuction with a need for medical treatment only available in the US. I worked as a congressional liason in immigration affairs...out of the nine cases i filed for Humanitarian Parole, i got one accepted. And that's a high batting average.

Mostly, entry without inspection does preclude adjustment of status. if you overstay a visa but did intitally enter legally, there are a few more options. but a lot's changed since 2001...and across the board, it's harder to enter. we shut down refugee resettlement from anywhere for a year in the wake of the attacks. i work with a Baptist church in Minnesota...and we had a bunch of Karen refugees desperatly in need of a new home, as their camps were being closed by the Thai government, and we shut the door on these folks for over 12 months while "security" reviews were done. The reason these folks were refugees in the first place was that they were an ethnic minority, and Christian.

the point of the story is that legal immigration is a closed door right now. the number of visas we grant is tiny in proportion to the population that we could be accepting.

analog · 10-08-2005, 10:44 PM

So can i smoke pot as long as I'm a nice guy and a contributing member of society?

I don't care how good a guy he is, he broke a law. If the penalty is deportation, then that's that.

And wow, what an awesome pillar of the community: he told the truth. AMAZING! He's practically Ghandi or Jesus Christ or something. *rolls eyes*

ChistledStone · 10-08-2005, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

So can i smoke pot as long as I'm a nice guy and a contributing member of society?

I don't care how good a guy he is, he broke a law. If the penalty is deportation, then that's that.

And wow, what an awesome pillar of the community: he told the truth. AMAZING! He's practically Ghandi or Jesus Christ or something. *rolls eyes*

Exactly. Sure, at times being a good guy can overcome little legal matters (imagine if everyone who speeded ever had to pay fines. The government would be rolling in money) but laws aren't there to stop fun. They're there to keep rule and order.

Great he told the truth. One step closer to becoming a good-valued citizen. But not close enough obviously.

Lock him up and send him home. He isn't worth the tax dollars to send him back.

flat5 · 10-09-2005, 03:23 AM

I'm glad the judge was not as hard nosed as some of you.

hulk · 10-09-2005, 03:54 AM

Wow, just wow. The attitudes of the replies to this thread are appaling. I'd imagine this man has done more for the community than anyone who thinks he got what he deserved, and heaven help you guys if you ever need the security of another country. Sheesh.

Schwan · 10-09-2005, 03:56 AM

Wow. Some true love and compassion in this thread. Not.

shakran · 10-09-2005, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

That's not true.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0321/p02s01-ussc.html

Why repeat something so adamantly when it's demonstrably false?

No argument that this system is set up or that some illegals are using it. But if you seriously think all the illegals are paying taxes, you're sadly misinformed.

And since that was only part of my argument, my argument wouldn't be weakened (much) even if every immigrant WAS paying taxes. They're still here illegally. They're not supposed to be here. Get them out.

canuckguy · 10-09-2005, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hulk

Wow, just wow. The attitudes of the replies to this thread are appaling. I'd imagine this man has done more for the community than anyone who thinks he got what he deserved, and heaven help you guys if you ever need the security of another country. Sheesh.

my thoughts exactly. if these are the type of people that you don't want in your community, thank god i live far away! he's only illegal, I could think of many worse things for this poor dude to be.

Pragma · 10-09-2005, 06:56 AM

That's just it - he's not actually deported yet, he's just on trial and the penalty could be deportation. He won't even get to trial for another year and a half, assuming that the case doesn't get dropped in the mean time.

Given how much of a help this guy is to the community, I don't think he'll have problems being able to stay, especially with the whole community throwing in behind him.

Fate · 10-09-2005, 07:15 AM

He shouldn't be departed, he did more than enough to earn his right to stay.
I don't see why being illegal is relevant after 12 years; he's only helped the people of that community to not only do their job, but progress in their lives. It's amazing how the ass-end of the law can't be looked around for good people.

Rekna · 10-09-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

But if you seriously think all the illegals are paying taxes, you're sadly misinformed.

How is an illegal immigrant going to avoid paying sales tax? How is an illegal immigrant who is using fake social security numbers to get jobs going to avoid paying income tax when it is the employer who with holds the money?

shakran · 10-09-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

How is an illegal immigrant going to avoid paying sales tax? How is an illegal immigrant who is using fake social security numbers to get jobs going to avoid paying income tax when it is the employer who with holds the money?

He'll avoid property tax. He'll avoid income tax when his employer doesn't care about the social security numbers. Can't tell you how many nurseries I've covered that get busted for knowingly hiring illegals and paying them in cash. It's actually rather rampant.

kel · 10-09-2005, 05:16 PM

for entering the country illegally and breaking laws that exist to protect us.
duh!

Rekna · 10-09-2005, 08:11 PM

But did this particular guy avoid paying taxes?

politicophile · 10-09-2005, 08:20 PM

The issue of taxation is a red herring. So is the fact that he was an upstanding member of his community.

Imagine that a man [stole a necklace from a jewelery store/operated a car under the influence/started a fight in a bar/collected mob "protection money"/committed some minor crime to your liking]. Incidentally, this man also was a upstanding member of his community and always paid his taxes. The question is this: should he be punished according to the guidelines established by law?

My answer is an emphatic yes. It simply is bad social policy to not enforce the law on people just because you think they are nice guys. I am looking for liberty and justice for all, and that includes illegal immigrants. This fellow can have all the liberty he wants... after he is justly deported to his homeland.

Pragma · 10-09-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

But did this particular guy avoid paying taxes?

Here's a different question - is it possible to try to pay taxes without being a legal resident? He seems like a good enough citizen that he probably would have, if he'd have been able to figure out a way to mail untraceable checks to the IRS

shakran · 10-09-2005, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

But did this particular guy avoid paying taxes?

As I said before, I don't care. He's here illegally. He needs to leave. I don't care if he pays DOUBLE taxes, he's still here illegally, and needs to leave.

Dengar · 10-09-2005, 08:43 PM

Theres no grandfather clause for illegal immigration. Sure he did a nobal thing and helped knowing hed get caught but he should have gotten in line with the rest of them.

analog · 10-09-2005, 08:59 PM

Hey, I don't give a damn about all the "geez, that's harsh" and "you're being tough on him" bleeding-heart bullshit. My grandfather and grandmother (not great-great or anything, my immediate grandfather) came to America from another country. Legally. They did all the work to be here legally, and they sure as shit didn't get a pat on the back and a collective bleeding-hearts-of-TFP blowjob for doing something as simple as telling the truth, under oath, which is what you're supposed to do anyway.

So, in short, I have no sympathy for those here illegally. Break the law, face the consequences.

Da Munk · 10-09-2005, 11:56 PM

I'm sure he's a great guy. It would be great if he could legally become a citizen. It's horrible that our immigration laws make it so difficult for people who genuinely want to work hard to make a better life for themselves to get in. Unfortunately, he did break the law and should be punished accordingly. Laws serve no purpose if we don't enforce them. Disagree with the law, work to get it changed, but don't ask for them to ignore it while it still exists.

Suave · 10-10-2005, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

So can i smoke pot as long as I'm a nice guy and a contributing member of society?

I don't care how good a guy he is, he broke a law. If the penalty is deportation, then that's that.

And wow, what an awesome pillar of the community: he told the truth. AMAZING! He's practically Ghandi or Jesus Christ or something. *rolls eyes*

I'm sure you'd feel the same way about laws if you were driving and accidentally hit and killed someone, got convicted of manslaughter, and were sent off to prison where you were summarily raped for 3 years. You'd be like "well, I deserved it, because that's the law no matter how good a person I may be." Yup. I totally believe that.

Also, anti-marijana laws are stupid.

And why do you feel the need to throw around "bleeding-heart" and shit? Shall we start calling you names?

hulk · 10-10-2005, 03:46 AM

Is justice always better than mercy, though? analog, do you honestly believe that every punishment laid down by the law is just, merely for the fact that it was the law? It was illegal for native Germans to associate with Jews in Nazi Germany, do you think those that helped them escape death deserve being executed? I mean, they did break the law.

shakran · 10-10-2005, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hulk

Is justice always better than mercy, though? analog, do you honestly believe that every punishment laid down by the law is just, merely for the fact that it was the law? It was illegal for native Germans to associate with Jews in Nazi Germany, do you think those that helped them escape death deserve being executed? I mean, they did break the law.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that not allowing illegal immigrants to sneak into the country and be here without permission is comparable to naziism?

That's not even a *clever* invocation of Godwin's law.

hulk · 10-10-2005, 04:33 AM

No, that wasn't my intention. I said it to challenge analog's view that any punishment laid down by law, due soley to the fact that the law lays it down, is valid. If you want another tragedy to go by, well, I can name a few. Stalin's purges, Saddam's anti-kurdish crusades, executing people for stealing sheep, hanging black slaves for trying to free themselves, the forced removal of Australian Aboriginal children, and so on, and so forth.

And btw, someone invokes Godwin's law when they declare a thread over because someone mentiones the Nazis. Frankly, I think it's stupid to base an assumption of victory in a debate by naming an outdated convention.

alansmithee · 10-10-2005, 04:42 AM

Like others, I agree that if he's here illegally, he has to go. Good acts do not immediately vegate criminal ones. The thread title is misleading-he's not being deported for telling the truth, he is being brought up for being an illegal immigrant. His truth-telling has nothing to do with it. If he was really as good an honest as some here would like to believe, he would have applied for citizenship legally in the first place.

shakran · 10-10-2005, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hulk

No, that wasn't my intention. I said it to challenge analog's view that any punishment laid down by law, due soley to the fact that the law lays it down, is valid. If you want another tragedy to go by, well, I can name a few. Stalin's purges, Saddam's anti-kurdish crusades, executing people for stealing sheep, hanging black slaves for trying to free themselves, the forced removal of Australian Aboriginal children, and so on, and so forth.

All of which are obvious violations of human rights. Illegal immigrants do NOT have the right to come here illegally, so sending them back home is not a violation of human rights. You will not fool us with your comparisons, no matter how you explain them.

Quote:

Frankly, I think it's stupid to base an assumption of victory in a debate by naming an outdated convention.

1) You don't have the facts right about Godwin's law, but that's not germane to the thread.

2) I assume victory because I have the facts on my side. He snuck into the country. He was here illegally. He got caught. He got deported. He could have been a pillar of his community if he had come here legally.

Let me ask you this. If he had not been so active and involved with his community, would you still say he should be allowed to stay? Why do you think we have immigration laws? Do you not think it's a good idea to have immigration laws so that there is some measure of control over who gets into the country?

Aladdin Sane · 10-10-2005, 05:32 AM

This guy (and 15 million others) are here illegally. They should all be sent back, or the law changed to allow them to stay. Period.

hulk · 10-10-2005, 05:51 AM

Then, I'd wager, you'd have at least a few million lower-class jobs to fill.

shakran, I never once brought up the issues of human rights. You're reading too far into my comparisons, to be quite honest, and your efforts are wasted. I know that they were all evil fuckers, there's no argument about that. What is relevant, though, is the idea that no matter how you live your life, one fuck up and you're gone.

The irony is that if he had kept quiet, and not gone out of his way to help, he'd still be in the country living a happier life. It's hardly likely he'll have much of a home to go back to after 12 years abroad, isn't it?

Anyways, Godwin's law is rather irrelevant. The longer a discussion is, the probability the argument will be compared to anything, from nazis to tacos to space-faring monkeys, approaches one.

ngdawg · 10-10-2005, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

He'll avoid property tax. He'll avoid income tax when his employer doesn't care about the social security numbers. Can't tell you how many nurseries I've covered that get busted for knowingly hiring illegals and paying them in cash. It's actually rather rampant.

As a school custodian, he is paying taxes and probably union dues as well.
In New Jersey, we have 'day workers'(I'm sure that is the case all over as well)-illegals who go to certain places and get picked up by people needing hired help. Most times the people taking on these workers are building contractors and landscapers, which irritates the union workers and can make for inferior workmanship. They are the ones paid in cash and do not pay taxes, they live two families or more in cramped subpar rental housing and slip through the cracks quite easily.
While his beginnings were not stellar, he is obviously a man of pride and enough integrity to willingly help, knowing his status would be in question at some point. Were that those who even came here legally had the standards this man has shown.

Rekna · 10-10-2005, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pragma

Here's a different question - is it possible to try to pay taxes without being a legal resident? He seems like a good enough citizen that he probably would have, if he'd have been able to figure out a way to mail untraceable checks to the IRS

Apparently you haven't read the threads above... he doens't need an untraceable check. there are lots of ways for illegals to volentarily and involentarily pay taxes.

frogza · 10-10-2005, 07:48 AM

I can't bring my heart to bleed because someone received the consequences of their actions. Just because the consequences of illegal entry didn't catch up immediatly doesn't exempt him from what he knew would happen if he got caught.

If a person were to confess to another crime and the police arrested them, we wouldn't be seeing the same backlash we are seeing with this case. The man commited a crime, confession doesn't undo that, it just makes it easier to prosecute.

Rekna · 10-10-2005, 08:33 AM

Those of you who think compassion has no place with the law you should look at outcomes of trials in the USA since it was founded. Clearly compassion and extenuating circumstances have been brought into verdicts.

The thing about this case that bothers me is this guy was doing his part to be a productive member of society, he is a good guy who was self sacrificing. This is more than many of you can say i'm sure. This guy deserves to be in this country more than many legal citizens.

cyrnel · 10-10-2005, 09:03 AM

Don't forget, the man's good (non)citizenship did buy him support and a very substantial delay. Not something afforded everyone. He has all kinds of time to plan, meet with attorneys, etc., to make his proper bid for citizenship. He's demonstrated the right qualities in all but one area: illegal entry. Correcting that situation be a very nice cap on his otherwise good record. Politically and honestly, the powers that be would find it difficult to deny this guy a fast track to legal citizenship once he complies in this last area. Set it up, leave, about face and go through the ceremony. Everybody wins.

JustJess · 10-10-2005, 09:42 AM

1. Yes, he broke the law. I jaywalked today, too. Friday, I was speeding. And yes, I consider it that much of an issue.

2. Want to send all the illegals home? Who's going to do all the cleaning, the maintenance, the cooking in restaurants, the harvesting? These people are so grateful for an opportunity to have work, they're willing to do what most American citizens are not. And believe me, the average business owner has NO problem taking advantage of their desperation. They're not living easy lives here, they are working their asses off for very little money.

3. It's pretty easy to be all high and mighty about "he broke the law" when it's not your life, isn't it? People need second chances - in many cases, first chances. And it's not like our government is making it easy to get that chance. Most immigrants that I have spoken with (and I talk to a lot people in general, and immigrants specifically since that's what I do for a living) would be perfectly happy to do things legally, if only they COULD.

I know a guy who works just about harder than anyone else I've met. He's an upstanding guy, has a lovely wife and kids, and has been working hard to become a legal permanent resident. Even though he's making less than any of you would ever accept as a salary, he put his hard earned money into lawyers to file for permanent residency. The lawyers gave him bad advice, told him he didn't need a new employment authorization card cause he was filing as a refugee (for various reasons, that was untrue), and generally left him to hang. Being the employer, we could not keep him on staff without legal work authorization. And now, he's got no job. Nothing. He paid taxes like you and I, he worked harder than we do, he's trying to do it right, but he's still screwed.

He's been trying to get legal permanent residence for 12 years.

So yeah, I'm okay with this guy being here anyway. I think it IS important that he told the truth. You say it like that's not a big deal - do the crime, pay the time. Bullshit. In an effort to do the RIGHT thing, he put his whole life in jeopardy. Do you think creating a life and a job for himself was easy? It's not. Moving, learning a new language, a new set of societal rules, raising a family, and then being told too bad, you have to leave? I'd like to see the rest of us handle it so well.

I like him a lot better than some other "real" Americans.

10-08-2005, 08:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	Man Breaks Immigration Laws, Is Deported Regardless of what a good guy he was, Inzunza was still an illegal immigrant: he deserved to be deported. __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

10-08-2005, 09:38 PM	#6 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	One question I'm a little hazy about. If you're already here illegally, what exactly can you do to become legal while staying? __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

10-09-2005, 03:54 AM	#11 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	Wow, just wow. The attitudes of the replies to this thread are appaling. I'd imagine this man has done more for the community than anyone who thinks he got what he deserved, and heaven help you guys if you ever need the security of another country. Sheesh. __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review.

10-09-2005, 06:56 AM	#15 (permalink)
Pragma I am Winter Born Location: Alexandria, VA	That's just it - he's not actually deported yet, he's just on trial and the penalty could be deportation. He won't even get to trial for another year and a half, assuming that the case doesn't get dropped in the mean time. Given how much of a help this guy is to the community, I don't think he'll have problems being able to stay, especially with the whole community throwing in behind him. __________________ Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

10-09-2005, 07:15 AM	#16 (permalink)
Fate Crazy Location: Montreal	He shouldn't be departed, he did more than enough to earn his right to stay. I don't see why being illegal is relevant after 12 years; he's only helped the people of that community to not only do their job, but progress in their lives. It's amazing how the ass-end of the law can't be looked around for good people. __________________ vB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is Off HTML code is Off

10-08-2005, 08:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	actually most illegals do pay taxes from what I understand. The IRS knows a lot about who the illegals are but they are forbiden to share that information with anyone.

10-08-2005, 10:44 PM	#8 (permalink)
analog Banned	So can i smoke pot as long as I'm a nice guy and a contributing member of society? I don't care how good a guy he is, he broke a law. If the penalty is deportation, then that's that. And wow, what an awesome pillar of the community: he told the truth. AMAZING! He's practically Ghandi or Jesus Christ or something. rolls eyes

10-09-2005, 03:23 AM	#10 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	I'm glad the judge was not as hard nosed as some of you.

10-09-2005, 03:56 AM	#12 (permalink)
Schwan A boy and his dog Location: EU!	Wow. Some true love and compassion in this thread. Not.

10-09-2005, 05:16 PM	#19 (permalink)
kel WARNING: FLAMMABLE Location: Ask Acetylene	He was deported for entering the country illegally and breaking laws that exist to protect us. duh! __________________ "It better be funny"

10-09-2005, 08:11 PM	#20 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	But did this particular guy avoid paying taxes?

10-09-2005, 08:20 PM	#21 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	The issue of taxation is a red herring. So is the fact that he was an upstanding member of his community. Imagine that a man [stole a necklace from a jewelery store/operated a car under the influence/started a fight in a bar/collected mob "protection money"/committed some minor crime to your liking]. Incidentally, this man also was a upstanding member of his community and always paid his taxes. The question is this: should he be punished according to the guidelines established by law? My answer is an emphatic yes. It simply is bad social policy to not enforce the law on people just because you think they are nice guys. I am looking for liberty and justice for all, and that includes illegal immigrants. This fellow can have all the liberty he wants... after he is justly deported to his homeland. __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

10-09-2005, 08:43 PM	#24 (permalink)
Dengar Crazy	Theres no grandfather clause for illegal immigration. Sure he did a nobal thing and helped knowing hed get caught but he should have gotten in line with the rest of them.

10-09-2005, 08:59 PM	#25 (permalink)
analog Banned	Hey, I don't give a damn about all the "geez, that's harsh" and "you're being tough on him" bleeding-heart bullshit. My grandfather and grandmother (not great-great or anything, my immediate grandfather) came to America from another country. Legally. They did all the work to be here legally, and they sure as shit didn't get a pat on the back and a collective bleeding-hearts-of-TFP blowjob for doing something as simple as telling the truth, under oath, which is what you're supposed to do anyway. So, in short, I have no sympathy for those here illegally. Break the law, face the consequences.

10-09-2005, 11:56 PM	#26 (permalink)
Da Munk Crazy	I'm sure he's a great guy. It would be great if he could legally become a citizen. It's horrible that our immigration laws make it so difficult for people who genuinely want to work hard to make a better life for themselves to get in. Unfortunately, he did break the law and should be punished accordingly. Laws serve no purpose if we don't enforce them. Disagree with the law, work to get it changed, but don't ask for them to ignore it while it still exists.

10-10-2005, 03:46 AM	#28 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	Is justice always better than mercy, though? analog, do you honestly believe that every punishment laid down by the law is just, merely for the fact that it was the law? It was illegal for native Germans to associate with Jews in Nazi Germany, do you think those that helped them escape death deserve being executed? I mean, they did break the law. __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review.

10-10-2005, 04:33 AM	#30 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	No, that wasn't my intention. I said it to challenge analog's view that any punishment laid down by law, due soley to the fact that the law lays it down, is valid. If you want another tragedy to go by, well, I can name a few. Stalin's purges, Saddam's anti-kurdish crusades, executing people for stealing sheep, hanging black slaves for trying to free themselves, the forced removal of Australian Aboriginal children, and so on, and so forth. And btw, someone invokes Godwin's law when they declare a thread over because someone mentiones the Nazis. Frankly, I think it's stupid to base an assumption of victory in a debate by naming an outdated convention. __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review. Last edited by hulk; 10-10-2005 at 04:45 AM..

10-10-2005, 04:42 AM	#31 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	Like others, I agree that if he's here illegally, he has to go. Good acts do not immediately vegate criminal ones. The thread title is misleading-he's not being deported for telling the truth, he is being brought up for being an illegal immigrant. His truth-telling has nothing to do with it. If he was really as good an honest as some here would like to believe, he would have applied for citizenship legally in the first place.

10-10-2005, 05:32 AM	#33 (permalink)
Aladdin Sane Degenerate Location: San Marvelous	This guy (and 15 million others) are here illegally. They should all be sent back, or the law changed to allow them to stay. Period. __________________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

10-10-2005, 05:51 AM	#34 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	Then, I'd wager, you'd have at least a few million lower-class jobs to fill. shakran, I never once brought up the issues of human rights. You're reading too far into my comparisons, to be quite honest, and your efforts are wasted. I know that they were all evil fuckers, there's no argument about that. What is relevant, though, is the idea that no matter how you live your life, one fuck up and you're gone. The irony is that if he had kept quiet, and not gone out of his way to help, he'd still be in the country living a happier life. It's hardly likely he'll have much of a home to go back to after 12 years abroad, isn't it? Anyways, Godwin's law is rather irrelevant. The longer a discussion is, the probability the argument will be compared to anything, from nazis to tacos to space-faring monkeys, approaches one. __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review. Last edited by hulk; 10-10-2005 at 05:57 AM..

10-10-2005, 07:48 AM	#37 (permalink)
frogza Registered User Location: Right Here	I can't bring my heart to bleed because someone received the consequences of their actions. Just because the consequences of illegal entry didn't catch up immediatly doesn't exempt him from what he knew would happen if he got caught. If a person were to confess to another crime and the police arrested them, we wouldn't be seeing the same backlash we are seeing with this case. The man commited a crime, confession doesn't undo that, it just makes it easier to prosecute.

10-10-2005, 08:33 AM	#38 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Those of you who think compassion has no place with the law you should look at outcomes of trials in the USA since it was founded. Clearly compassion and extenuating circumstances have been brought into verdicts. The thing about this case that bothers me is this guy was doing his part to be a productive member of society, he is a good guy who was self sacrificing. This is more than many of you can say i'm sure. This guy deserves to be in this country more than many legal citizens.

10-10-2005, 09:03 AM	#39 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Don't forget, the man's good (non)citizenship did buy him support and a very substantial delay. Not something afforded everyone. He has all kinds of time to plan, meet with attorneys, etc., to make his proper bid for citizenship. He's demonstrated the right qualities in all but one area: illegal entry. Correcting that situation be a very nice cap on his otherwise good record. Politically and honestly, the powers that be would find it difficult to deny this guy a fast track to legal citizenship once he complies in this last area. Set it up, leave, about face and go through the ceremony. Everybody wins. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

10-10-2005, 09:42 AM	#40 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	1. Yes, he broke the law. I jaywalked today, too. Friday, I was speeding. And yes, I consider it that much of an issue. 2. Want to send all the illegals home? Who's going to do all the cleaning, the maintenance, the cooking in restaurants, the harvesting? These people are so grateful for an opportunity to have work, they're willing to do what most American citizens are not. And believe me, the average business owner has NO problem taking advantage of their desperation. They're not living easy lives here, they are working their asses off for very little money. 3. It's pretty easy to be all high and mighty about "he broke the law" when it's not your life, isn't it? People need second chances - in many cases, first chances. And it's not like our government is making it easy to get that chance. Most immigrants that I have spoken with (and I talk to a lot people in general, and immigrants specifically since that's what I do for a living) would be perfectly happy to do things legally, if only they COULD. I know a guy who works just about harder than anyone else I've met. He's an upstanding guy, has a lovely wife and kids, and has been working hard to become a legal permanent resident. Even though he's making less than any of you would ever accept as a salary, he put his hard earned money into lawyers to file for permanent residency. The lawyers gave him bad advice, told him he didn't need a new employment authorization card cause he was filing as a refugee (for various reasons, that was untrue), and generally left him to hang. Being the employer, we could not keep him on staff without legal work authorization. And now, he's got no job. Nothing. He paid taxes like you and I, he worked harder than we do, he's trying to do it right, but he's still screwed. He's been trying to get legal permanent residence for 12 years. So yeah, I'm okay with this guy being here anyway. I think it IS important that he told the truth. You say it like that's not a big deal - do the crime, pay the time. Bullshit. In an effort to do the RIGHT thing, he put his whole life in jeopardy. Do you think creating a life and a job for himself was easy? It's not. Moving, learning a new language, a new set of societal rules, raising a family, and then being told too bad, you have to leave? I'd like to see the rest of us handle it so well. I like him a lot better than some other "real" Americans. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.