tecoyah

*Note the sarcasm*

While I accept the rights of this school to set standards (private school), I am disgusted by the outright bigotry we allow in this society under the cover of religion. These are , quite frankly the types of headlines that make me very happy to no longer count myself as a Christian.


School Expels Girl for Having Gay Parents
Christian School Expels California Student Because Her Parents Are Lesbians
The Associated Press

Sep. 23, 2005 - A 14-year-old student was expelled from a Christian school because her parents are lesbians, the school's superintendent said in a letter.

Shay Clark was expelled from Ontario Christian School on Thursday.

"Your family does not meet the policies of admission," Superintendent Leonard Stob wrote to Tina Clark, the girl's biological mother.

Stob wrote that school policy requires that at least one parent may not engage in practices "immoral or inconsistent with a positive Christian life style, such as cohabitating without marriage or in a homosexual relationship," The Los Angeles Times reported in Friday's edition.

Stob could not be reached for comment by the newspaper. Shay and her parents said they won't fight the ruling.

School administrators learned of the parents' relationship this week after Shay was reprimanded for talking to the crowd during a football game, Tina Clark said.

Clark and her partner have been together 22 years and have two other daughters, ages 9 and 19.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Copyright © 2005 ABC News Internet Ventures

http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=1151655

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Strange Famous

I posted that on the main board I go to today too.

What a ridicolous school. The only thing I can't fathom is why the parents would want to send their kid to a school like that.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

mr sticky

I tell you, it's too bad that homosexuality is so damned contagious. We won't be safe until we get all of them on their own remote island.

Maybe we could start a telethon?

The problem with a lot of today's Christianity is that it just gives some idiots excuses to feel better about themselves. They merely point to another group, villainize and demonize them, and they never have to look into their own hearts.

It's a perfect set up, isn't it?

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alansmithee

Where's the problem? The school made the judgement that the student's parent's aren't living in a Christian lifestyle, and expelled the student. Obviously this school has certain standards of behavior that aren't being met by this particular family. Should the school's standards be allowed to be hijacked by a certain groups effective PR campaign?

Salomon

Wow, and in California of all places. I would expect this kind of thing, in say, Utah or West Virginia, but never in California.

Strange Famous

are you joking?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

pattycakes

school rules are school rules

__________________

tecoyah

perhaps I should point this out again....as it was obviously not clear enough in my original post:

While I accept the rights of this school to set standards (private school), I am disgusted by the outright bigotry we allow in this society under the cover of religion.

Now maybe we can talk about the actual intended discussion , set before us by the thread.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

ngdawg

"Christian lifestyle"? Is that where one quotes the bible and uses it as back-up for their narrow-minded beliefs? Or the one that touts the 'God loves everyone, except Gays, Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Pagans, Goth, Metalheads and certain people in Vermont because I said so"?
Edit: Forgot my manners

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Strange Famous

ngdawg, I'll think you;ll find that, if you read the bible, God is pretty much only for the Jews.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

JumpinJesus

I'm not sure I understand this kind of reasoning. I didn't read anywhere where the mothers of the student set out on a campaign to ensure everyone knew they were enrolling their daughter in a Christian school while announcing they were lesbians. In fact, the article states that the biological mother is not going to fight the ruling. How does this qualify as one group's PR campaign?

This became an issue when the school discovered their living situation and expelled the girl. After this occurrence, the parents may have contacted the media, but I would not call this a PR campaign by any group before the fact.

I'm with tecoyah on this. I respect the private school's right to set their admission standards any way they wish - that is, of course, if they are not receiving any federal funds under No Child Left Behind. If they are, then I will vehemently disagree with their right to discriminate.

If we alter the wording of their policies to read, "immoral or inconsistent with a positive Christian life style, such as cohabitating without marriage or in a biracial relationship," does it garner the same amount of support? Before we fly off the handle claiming the issues are entirely separate, I would suggest that they are not as there was a time when biracial relationships were viewed as inconsistent with Christain teachings.

Lest there be any more debate, I also submit this:

The entire article can be found here

Certain groups of Christians have long used their faith as justification for bigotry and no amount of scripture quoting or claims of Christian-bashing will change that.

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canuckguy

I've stared at this thread now for a bit and can't think of anything positive to add to the discussion. iIve wrote a half dozen responses, deleting everyone of them. They all have the same theme, fucking religion seems to cloud your judgement and make you insane. I bet this girl has awesome parents. Good thing she got out now before she got in too deep.

Tecoyah, you said it already, but i am not sure of the answer, it disgusts me as well.

zen_tom

It's wrong. Pure and simple. But I don't understand why the parents would <i>want</i> to send their daughter to a school with such policies.

Just a question (and I don't know the answer) but would it be different if the school policy was to disallow children who's parents were black?

I suppose you need to decide whether homosexuality is a lifestyle choice or something that comes naturally. Then, if you decide that it is a choice, you have to take your judgement call as to whether it's a moral one or not.

The school's rules are bigoted, no doubt about that from my point of view, but once again, I have to wonder why anyone would want to send their child to such a hateful school?

Charlatan

There really is little to be said beyond: As a private school they are free to set their own policies.

On the other hand this seems to be a highly bigoted policy. I don't think it would survive a court challenge.


Interestingly, in Canada Catholic schools are publicly funded (a weird historical blip). As public schools they can't pull stunts like this. There was a famous case a few years ago where a gay student wanted to take his boyfriend to the prom. He won the case.

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bad jane

i don't know (or really even care) why the parents decided to send their child to this school. perhaps the daughter wanted it, who knows. but why is the girl being punished for something she has absolutely no control over? it's quite possible she has a problem with her mother being a lesbian. she's 14, she can't change her situation and has no say in the choices her mother makes for her. i'd be a bit more sympathetic to the school if they expelled the student because she was gay. but punishing the girl for the "sins" of her mother...thought christianity was against that sort of thing?

Charlatan

These aren't christians... they are bureaucrats...

Look, it says right here in aritcle 14, paragraph 34... no gay parents.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

analog

Yup. Their house, their money, their rules.

That being said, I completely concur with tecoyah. It's really pathetic that they chose to kick out a 14 year old girl because of her PARENTS. I guarantee they didn't even bother to see that they've been together for 22 years and have 2 other children.

Oh well, their loss. I hope the kid grows up to be someone really important, and kicks all their self-righteous asses.

Phage

What is the point of having a religion and professing your faith in it, if you don't follow it? People of different religions have different standards of what is moral and it just so happens that this particular part of Christianity thinks that gays are not acting morally.

You might make sense debating their beliefs about gayness, but accusing them of being bigots is insanity; surely they should make sure that those seeking to be part of their group abide by their beliefs.

Charlatan

What would Jesus do?

Let's see... he accepted the poor, the suffering, the outcasts, the lepers, Levi the Tax collector and he was really and ass, whores...

Sounds like someone as lost their way...

Put another way, we don't accept this sort of behaviour from other groups... discrimination is not something we aspire to celebrate. However, you couch your hatred in religion and somehow it is palatable acceptable? I find it hard to rationalize... especially given the pious nature of the church.

Holy, holy, holy.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

aKula

Though I agree that private schools should be allowed to set their own policies, I think there should be legislation in place to stop things like this. As mentioned before it's like not allowing a kid to attend the school because they're black. Actually now I think about it it's more like not allowing a kid to attend a school because their adopted parents are black. Ridiculous things like this (which seem to occur every day) really tarnish the image of Christianity.

Charlatan

This is what many of us are getting at...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

alansmithee

Finally, someone with some sense. You can debate their beliefs about homosexuality, but it seems awful self-righteous and presumptuous to label people bigoted just because they disagree with a particular lifestyle choice. I'm really shocked that there are so many people who just can't comprehend that there's a large part of America that finds the gay lifestyle something immoral and/or unpleasant (especially when their rebuttals to this view have no substance). This school has certain beliefs, they work to ensure that those beliefs are followed.

Acually, it's nothing like not allowing a kid to attend because their adopted parents are black. Being black is not a lifestyle choice, being gay is.

ngdawg

No it isn't a choice. Accepting it, both as a gay person and as any individual should, is.

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alansmithee

And here we come to the crux of the problem. Until this is settled, there can be no right or wrong. And as much as many people would like for there to be, there is still no proof that being gay is not a choice. So in the absence of that, this school was merely reacting against a lifestyle they felt ran counter their religious beliefs, and not the rampant bigotry many here have attempted to attribute.

aberkok

That's not what I see happening. They are not merely disagreeing, but using their power to deprive a student. What I see is a group of people in power - the bigots - who are actively trying to prevent a certain segment of society - homosexuals - from sharing the same rights and privileges. Alansmithee: attempt if you will to show how the girl in question would be imposing upon the school if she attended. How does that affect anyone at the school? If a gay student was at the school, how would that adversely affect anyone attending? Who does it hurt and more importantly, how does it prevent the administrators from believing what they want to believe...that homosexuality is wrong?

Even if this is true (which is a topic for another thread), it's not something to be taken lightly... homosexual people don't wake up at the beginning of the day and decide to be gay...it's usually a life choice...even more significant than deciding upon a career or lifelong spouse. I might even be persuaded that it is not so much of a choice.

Besides...you know what else is a choice? Religion.

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StanT

If a private Islamic school insisted that students wear turbans or burkas and face Mecca to pray 5 times a day, I'd accept it. There isn't a chance in hell that I would send my kids to the school, but I'd support their right to their beliefs. This is no different. While I find their beliefs offensive, they are entitled to hold them. I have a hard time understanding why these women would chose to send their child to this school.

sprocket

As far as I know most christian schools have these kinds of rules in place. As the article noted, there are other lifestyle choices they dont allow as well. Unwed cohabitation for example. I dont think this is really about christians being bigoted towards homosexuals, they are just disapproving of the family situation. Unwed couples living together, homesexual RELATIONSHIPS, parents who are pornstars, etc dont quite mesh with the family values they try to instill in the kids. Id wager to say this wouldnt have been an issue if the mother wasnt in a relationship. The old saying "Dont hate the sinner, hate the sin" comes to mind.

Id even wager to say they probably hated to have to send this little girl away and struggled with the decision, but in the end came to the conclusion that it would be best for the rest of the children in the school.

Usually, the parents dont lie (or dont get caught), and the students in these kinds of situations get denied entry into school in the first place. We'll probably start hearing about more of these kinds of cases since its trendy to hate on christians these days (especially without trying to understand why they do what they do, and automatically chanting "BIGOT! BIGOT!").

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Phage

This is a Christian (e.g. private) school; attending it is not something they are entitled to. Christians, like other religions, are made up of people who share a moral view. In order to join their group it makes sense that you must agree and follow their same moral stand. Just because the private Christian school looks shiny and cool does not mean they can simply go there without modifying their behavior and beliefs.

Homosexuality is a choice; while I will entertain arguments about why and to what people are attracted, the act of willingly having a sexual relationship with a member of the same sex is a choice. Period. This might be a life choice that is very important, but part of being Christian (in this case) is to NOT be homosexual. Period. Notice a trend? They don't care how big of a decision it was when it was made, the requirement is to change it.

Simply for the point of argument, lets assume that a gay person's attractions are not under their control. Being attracted is not the sin, it is the action that is the problem. Most religions have one or usually more things that members are expected to avoid. These things are often tempting, sometimes very much so. A mistake is usually forgiven, but in the case of simply refusing to follow such rules it is perfectly reasonable to say they are not a member of the religion. These people knew that homosexuality was considered bad, and they decided not to modify their behavior. If they don't play by the rules they get kicked out, which is what happened.

Phage

Everyone who thinks the school is bigoted
big·ot n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bigot

Ok now, guys, girls, don't be morons. The school, being a Christian school, is justifiably strongly partial to the Christian faith. It would not make much sense for them to invite those openly holding directly opposing views into their school, which was specifically created as being only for those with the same beliefs.

You apparently think that the proper way to act is to be tolerant of all the views and morals of others. You find intolerance... intolerable! It should be clear at this point that you are being bigoted toward this school that is taking a moral stand, and that if you truly believed in tolerance you would tolerate their intolerance and ShutTheFuckUp and GetBackToWork.

Strange Famous

it may be beyond the reach of American law to punish this school appropriately. Certainly any state funding at all must be removed instantly. It would be pleasing to see mass boycots and withdrawal of children from the school. It is interesting how the Christian Right forms its morality so selectively. Because, you know, if the guide for how to live is really going to be Leviticus... my guess is that most people who call themselves Christians aren't doing too well.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

It is only acceptable to support the school's actions, as long as the school also enforce the following standards:

Any parent who is remarried should have their children expelled from this school, and most divorcee's also.

Any child who eats pork or shellfish shall be expelled, the parents of any child eating the same shall be expelled.

any child who does any kind of work on Saturday, or whose parents do any kind of work on a a Saturday, shall be expelled.

I could go on, but I guess you get the idea? These commands are not open for debate. Certainly every person is free to believe of themselves and their God what they will... but it is not for the individual to say what a religion stands for. The God of the Christians is defined by the law as set out in the Bible.

If you do not follow the law, you cannot be a Christian. Even Jesus himself said that he did not come to contradict the prophets, but to reinfocre them. If this school is to arbitrarily decide which elements of the law it enforces and which it does not, then it commits sin. As the homosexual should be treated, so should the man who sleeps with his wife while she is on her period. So should the sinner who consumes unclean meat be treated, and so on.

If it were to be discovered that this school did allow the parents of divorced children, or that it did allow or even FORCE children to do homework on the Sabbath... certainly it should not be allowed to take the title of a Christian school. Freedom is one thing, but this would be merely fraud and deception... and the school's teaching would be a serious deviation and a grave sin.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

aberkok

You're right. The school is intolerant and therefore bigoted.Something in the story doesn't add up because the student was admitted to the school in the first place. The whole situation reeks of someone within the administration getting "cold feet." If the family was not in accordance with a "positive Christian lifestyle" (of which homosexuality certainly has been successfully argued as being a part of, by the way), then why admit them in the first place?Besides the fact that you've turned this into a semantic argument, you are almost right. People ought to be tolerant of all the views and morals of others, until they cause harm. There's no convincing evidence that a homosexual family can be more harmful to a school community than a heterosexual one.

As well, I am intolerant of the school's so called "moral stand" but their ability to discover morality is handicapped by their religion, but that's best not argued on this thread.

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genuinegirly

Bigotry is hidden under more names than religion, isn't it? Culture, perhaps? It's the heard mentality of general Christianity that encourages the bigot mentality.

California has its wacko-s just like every other state. Just because we're not back woods or 93% Mormon doesn't mean we're not immune to stupidity.

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highthief

Agreed. I think the school and the people associated with such rules are, indeed, small minded little bigots, however - that is their right. I too am mystified why, as a lesbian parent, you'd want to put your kid through something like that knowing the problems that might come up.

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flat5

Why send her there?
Perhaps the school is safer and has good teachers - Is a better school.

Perhaps the girl has a learning disability. Maybe the public school did not want her. When I was a kid (late 50s/early 60s) this happened to a friend of mine. He was a jewish kid with an IQ of 70. Only a Cathlic school would take him.

Charlatan

First off, you are not helping things by calling those who don't agree with you morons... or telling them to STFU...


I don't think there is any question in my mind that this school is being bigoted and intolerant. The thing is, I don't see homosexuality as a choice. It is not a lifestyle choices it is a biological imperitive.

And, as alansmithee points out, therein lies the crux of this argument.

If this were to be clear (i.e. it is a biological impertive and not just some willy nilly biological choice) I think you would have to agree this is school is bigoted. Alas this is not the case.


Personally I don't think the school is being very Christian at all. You are being rather broad in your brush strokes by suggesting that all Christians share the same point of view. There are many (no MANY) Christians who embrace homosexuality. Additionally, here are a some Lesbian parents who apparently are strong enough in their faith that they would like to send their straight, adopted daughter to a Christian school.

The school missed an opportunity to proseletyze.


EDIT: I am being tolerant of their intolerance... I am simply musing on their intolerance and deeming it bigoted. As a private school they are free to set policies. This policy can stand for now (until the biology is sorted or societal norms change). This doesn't change my opinion...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

highthief

The article does not state where this school is - anywhere near a town of more than 200,000 people, however, probably has a choice of schools to attend. To some degree I assume this is the case, as over 90% of gays live in urban centres. But if it is in the middle of nowhere, I can see the point you make, even if it is not a decision I would likely make myself - I'd rather home school or move than force my kid to go to a school where the "educators" labelled me a bad person or evil or something.

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Ustwo

Does anyone have more of this story or was it a little blurb story only? It contains just about zero details and before we do the usual dogpile on the intolerant Christians, lets try to get some facts first. This won't be the first time people flew off the handle on this kind of thing and made themselves look stupid or need I remind you of the 'Is your child a goth' hoax so many of you swallowed hook line and sinker. Anyone who had the slightest bit of understanding of how the Catholic Church works knew it made absolutely no sense, but hey they are Christians, lets make fun of them and hate them!

This line has me wondering...

"School administrators learned of the parents' relationship this week after Shay was reprimanded for talking to the crowd during a football game, Tina Clark said."

What exactly did she say? Was this child a major trouble maker and this was an excuse to expel her? Was her parents relationship discovered as the result of innocent discussion and some evil bigoted Christian then saw to it she was removed? There are WAY to many what ifs here people.

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Charlatan

The original LA Times article doesn't add much more to the story:

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- Old Man Luedecke

tecoyah

No one in this thread even hinted at Hating....until you typed this Ustwo.
this actually seems a rather civil discussion on the perception garnered by the situation, and what bigotry may be evident in the descision. If possible.....It might be beneficial to the thread if you held back on the misconception that everyone here is Christian Bashing, and instead focused on the actual debate.

Just Sayin

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