GPS in your cell phone pinpoints your location? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Jinn · 09-22-2005, 09:47 AM

How have privacy advocates not jumped all-the-fuck over this one? I was sitting on the john just now, playing with my cell phone online, when I saw a new thing in the "What's Hot" section.. it was called "Find Things Nearby.."

I was like neat.. let's see what near me right now.. I'm in the bathroom of my work, but I can likely just put in the address and it will tell me. To my surprise, it KNEW. When I asked for directions, it GAVE ME DIRECTIONS FROM MY BUILDING.

Now I knew briefly that cell-phones could have GPS, because a friend of mine stole my old cell phone and sprinted down the street, promising to kill himself by jumping in front of traffic. This obviously concerned me, so when I called 911 I told them that he had my cell phone -- and they were able to use the GPS to track him down. I assumed this was a feature my mother had opted-in for, since she had bought me the phone.

In shock, I went ahead and looked online for this and found:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/pt...l.tracing.idg/

Someone with my cell phone number and the right access could pinpoint me in the world within 50 to 300 meters? How the hell does this stand up in courts?

(EDIT: for those wondering, I *did* wash my hands, because I pooped)

denim · 09-22-2005, 12:13 PM

You don't have to have a cell phone. If you do, they need to be able to locate you in case you call 911. That's how.

ratbastid · 09-22-2005, 12:34 PM

Many phones have the ability to switch it off.

Just wait until cellular bandwidth is big enough your phone is always on the net. You'll walk by a pizza place and get SMSed coupons and advertising.

Salomon · 09-22-2005, 01:27 PM

IMO, Cell phones double as law enforcement tracking devices disguised as consumer electronics. Same with gps (Nav) systems in cars.

How do you think they tracked down the perpetrators of the london bombings? They traced one guys cellphone calls all across europe, and eventually found and arrested him in Rome. They found the al-qaeda #2 guy the same way...forgot his name.

stevie667 · 09-22-2005, 01:27 PM

I have GPS on my phone, Nokia 5140 (with the upgraded shell), but fortunatly the damned thing doesn't work enough (i.e. it turns on...sometimes) to do anything useful, or be tracked.
You can be traced by your mobile signal, either through the cell your broadcasting from, or other means, nothing really new there.
What phone do you have, it could answer more questions.

Siege · 09-22-2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Just wait until cellular bandwidth is big enough your phone is always on the net. You'll walk by a pizza place and get SMSed coupons and advertising.

Sometimes I want that when i'm hungry

Coupons help poor students like me get good deals

I always thought the tracking thing was common knowledge. I guess not.

AngelicVampire · 09-22-2005, 03:11 PM

Umm, its a really hard feature to turn off considering how cell phone networks function, you register your phone with nearby towers, basically they can normally triangulate your position to within 10m.

I am not really sure why everyone is so paranoid about others knowing where you are, realistically is it a problem if people know? Technology is advancing at a remarkably fast rate and with networked technology finding people becomes far easier, falling off the grid is the way to become "invisible" however it does mean that you can't really take part in the new networked society (Computer Science geek, I am trackable 24/7/365 and like the security, if something happens finding me is easy, or my stuff).

hulk · 09-23-2005, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelicVampire

Umm, its a really hard feature to turn off considering how cell phone networks function, you register your phone with nearby towers, basically they can normally triangulate your position to within 10m.

Not quite. They know the nearest tower, it's the one with the strongest signal, but any form of triangulation would be nigh impossible, as signal strengths vary so much. Unless, of course, you were within a triangle of towers. Then they'd kinda know you'd be in the general area, ie, the middle

*Nikki* · 09-23-2005, 05:34 AM

On my cell phone that feature only works if 911 is dialed. I am glad that is there personally.

Bill O'Rights · 09-23-2005, 06:07 AM

I'll bet these two would wish that they could've been located with a GPS in their cell phone.

Quote:

On Jan. 4, 2005 , Janelle Hornickel and her boyfriend, Michael Wamsley, both 20, were heading home to their apartment in Omaha , Neb. , when they got caught in a snowstorm.

Over the course of the evening, the couple made a series of bizarre, frantic phone calls to 911, asking for help in finding their way home.

At one point, Wamsley said they had come across hundreds of bystanders who didn't speak English. Hornickel said others were taking cars apart and putting them in the trees.

The couple also left their truck, which still had a half-tank of gas, warm clothes and Wamsley's cell phone. It was minus 10 degrees with the wind chill.

Wamsley's body was found the next day. Six days later, authorities found Hornickel's body. Both had frozen to death.

The 911 dispatchers receiving the couple's phone calls that night had no idea what was happening. But authorities now know the young couple was high on crystal meth.

It was later determined that the "hundreds of bystanders who didn't speak English" was a herd of cattle, that was nereby where the bodies were found.

So, as with most anything, there are pros and cons to this issue as well. Can it be used for evil? Yep...without a doubt. But here, I think, it might have saved the lives of a couple of dumbassed kids.

Janey · 09-23-2005, 06:12 AM

Remember, with the Lacy Peterson murder investigation, the police were able to track her husband's movements based on it's registering with the cell phone towers. He wasn't using the phone, it was just turned on.

DelayedReaction · 09-23-2005, 07:09 AM

You don't need GPS to track someone by their cellular phone; you can do it via triangulation by the cellular towers. Basically two cellular towers say "hey, this guy is that way", and the combination of directions and position allow someone with a map to determine where you are relative to those two towers.

The easiest way to not be tracked is to turn off your cellphone.

ElvenDestiny · 09-23-2005, 07:12 AM

Read the fine print of your cell phone agreement, you agree to them being able to track your cell phone. In fact they also tax you for it. (At least you do with Cricket here in Pittsburgh, though what you agree to is that they are permitted to use their services to trace a stole, lost, or misplaced phone, or for any other reason, inadvertently you are oking them to track you as well.)

Jinn · 09-23-2005, 07:53 AM

And this ability does not concern any of you?

Janey · 09-23-2005, 08:38 AM

naah. you can always go off the grid, so to speak. cell phones are not necessities

Cynthetiq · 09-23-2005, 08:48 AM

a few years ago some kids in a boat here in NYC got adrift got lost and drowned. they called 911 for help but because they couldn't figure out where they were in the bay the lost them. i don't recall them ever finding the bodies.

IMO it's a non issue. you want to be off the grid yet have the convenience of being on it? you may as well ask for your cake and eat it too.

please

Pip · 09-23-2005, 09:04 AM

One more reason for me to stay true to my old Nokia from 1999. No GPS, no MMS, no MP3, just a regular old phone. It's also big enough to handle unlike the baby phones of today!

The "triangulation" some speak of is not very precise at all. The signal strength depends not only on the distance from the station, but on what's in between, hills, houses, such things. It'd be a right pain to take all that into account and really pinpoint the location. Even if it could be done, I wouldn't worry too much, because I have nothing to be ashamed of.

jorgelito · 09-23-2005, 07:51 PM

Hmmm, I find it hard to believe they can actually do it. When my cousin got mugged by gunpoint, I was actually on the phone with him at the time it happened. I immediately called 9-11. After getting a busy signal three times, then the answering machine twice (another thread), I got through. The operator person asked me where the crime was taking place I said I didn't know, but that my cousin was talking on the cell phone at the time with me, so couldn't they just track it through triangulation or GPS? NOPE, was the reply, sorry.

If they actually can do it, then our 9-11 really, really sucks ass.

oberon · 09-23-2005, 08:25 PM

Umm, folks... radio signals can be triangulated using direction finding. It's not difficult. You can't have a cell phone without the ability to be located. ALL cell phones can be located to a good degree of precision, especially in a densely populated area (due to higher density of cell sites).

Also: GPSs are receivers, not transmitters. They receive signals from the satellites to figure out where you're at. Even if your cell phone had GPS functionality (and not just location through direction finding with cell towers), you wouldn't be any more "vulnerable" than with any other cell phone.

And finally: Any three points forms a triangle.

Cynthetiq · 09-23-2005, 09:55 PM

e911 is supposed to be able to locate someone to where they are, everyone who has a cellphone pays extra for that service. Has it been implemented? nope, the monies have been used for other things instead of what they were allotted.

at least 10 years of E911 payments have gotten me bupkis.

jorgelito · 09-23-2005, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

e911 is supposed to be able to locate someone to where they are, everyone who has a cellphone pays extra for that service. Has it been implemented? nope, the monies have been used for other things instead of what they were allotted.

at least 10 years of E911 payments have gotten me bupkis.

That is seriously messed up.

Vincentt · 09-23-2005, 11:32 PM

I'd like to think that if I ever went missing, someone could find me using this GPS system.

But I wonder if it is used for 'good'.

By the time I am missing (24hours) i'd be the cell is dead.

alansmithee · 09-24-2005, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I'll bet these two would wish that they could've been located with a GPS in their cell phone.

It was later determined that the "hundreds of bystanders who didn't speak English" was a herd of cattle, that was nereby where the bodies were found.

So, as with most anything, there are pros and cons to this issue as well. Can it be used for evil? Yep...without a doubt. But here, I think, it might have saved the lives of a couple of dumbassed kids.

The world already has enough dumbasses. This is a story advocating eliminating GPS from phones. Chalk one up for Darwin.

09-22-2005, 09:47 AM	#1 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	GPS in your cell phone pinpoints your location? How have privacy advocates not jumped all-the-fuck over this one? I was sitting on the john just now, playing with my cell phone online, when I saw a new thing in the "What's Hot" section.. it was called "Find Things Nearby.." I was like neat.. let's see what near me right now.. I'm in the bathroom of my work, but I can likely just put in the address and it will tell me. To my surprise, it KNEW. When I asked for directions, it GAVE ME DIRECTIONS FROM MY BUILDING. Now I knew briefly that cell-phones could have GPS, because a friend of mine stole my old cell phone and sprinted down the street, promising to kill himself by jumping in front of traffic. This obviously concerned me, so when I called 911 I told them that he had my cell phone -- and they were able to use the GPS to track him down. I assumed this was a feature my mother had opted-in for, since she had bought me the phone. In shock, I went ahead and looked online for this and found: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/pt...l.tracing.idg/ Someone with my cell phone number and the right access could pinpoint me in the world within 50 to 300 meters? How the hell does this stand up in courts? (EDIT: for those wondering, I did wash my hands, because I pooped) __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

09-22-2005, 01:27 PM	#5 (permalink)
stevie667 Too Awesome for Aardvarks Location: Angloland	I have GPS on my phone, Nokia 5140 (with the upgraded shell), but fortunatly the damned thing doesn't work enough (i.e. it turns on...sometimes) to do anything useful, or be tracked. You can be traced by your mobile signal, either through the cell your broadcasting from, or other means, nothing really new there. What phone do you have, it could answer more questions. __________________ Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

09-23-2005, 07:09 AM	#12 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	You don't need GPS to track someone by their cellular phone; you can do it via triangulation by the cellular towers. Basically two cellular towers say "hey, this guy is that way", and the combination of directions and position allow someone with a map to determine where you are relative to those two towers. The easiest way to not be tracked is to turn off your cellphone. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

09-23-2005, 07:12 AM	#13 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	Read the fine print of your cell phone agreement, you agree to them being able to track your cell phone. In fact they also tax you for it. (At least you do with Cricket here in Pittsburgh, though what you agree to is that they are permitted to use their services to trace a stole, lost, or misplaced phone, or for any other reason, inadvertently you are oking them to track you as well.) __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away. Last edited by ElvenDestiny; 09-23-2005 at 07:16 AM..

09-23-2005, 07:53 AM	#14 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	And this ability does not concern any of you? __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

09-22-2005, 12:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	You don't have to have a cell phone. If you do, they need to be able to locate you in case you call 911. That's how.

09-22-2005, 12:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Many phones have the ability to switch it off. Just wait until cellular bandwidth is big enough your phone is always on the net. You'll walk by a pizza place and get SMSed coupons and advertising.

09-22-2005, 01:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
Salomon Loser	IMO, Cell phones double as law enforcement tracking devices disguised as consumer electronics. Same with gps (Nav) systems in cars. How do you think they tracked down the perpetrators of the london bombings? They traced one guys cellphone calls all across europe, and eventually found and arrested him in Rome. They found the al-qaeda #2 guy the same way...forgot his name.

09-22-2005, 03:11 PM	#7 (permalink)
AngelicVampire Insane	Umm, its a really hard feature to turn off considering how cell phone networks function, you register your phone with nearby towers, basically they can normally triangulate your position to within 10m. I am not really sure why everyone is so paranoid about others knowing where you are, realistically is it a problem if people know? Technology is advancing at a remarkably fast rate and with networked technology finding people becomes far easier, falling off the grid is the way to become "invisible" however it does mean that you can't really take part in the new networked society (Computer Science geek, I am trackable 24/7/365 and like the security, if something happens finding me is easy, or my stuff).

09-23-2005, 05:34 AM	#9 (permalink)
Nikki ~~~~~~~ Location: Charleston, SC	On my cell phone that feature only works if 911 is dialed. I am glad that is there personally.

09-23-2005, 06:12 AM	#11 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	Remember, with the Lacy Peterson murder investigation, the police were able to track her husband's movements based on it's registering with the cell phone towers. He wasn't using the phone, it was just turned on.

09-23-2005, 08:38 AM	#15 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	naah. you can always go off the grid, so to speak. cell phones are not necessities

09-23-2005, 08:48 AM	#16 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	a few years ago some kids in a boat here in NYC got adrift got lost and drowned. they called 911 for help but because they couldn't figure out where they were in the bay the lost them. i don't recall them ever finding the bodies. IMO it's a non issue. you want to be off the grid yet have the convenience of being on it? you may as well ask for your cake and eat it too. please __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-23-2005, 09:04 AM	#17 (permalink)
Pip Likes Hats Location: Stockholm, Sweden	One more reason for me to stay true to my old Nokia from 1999. No GPS, no MMS, no MP3, just a regular old phone. It's also big enough to handle unlike the baby phones of today! The "triangulation" some speak of is not very precise at all. The signal strength depends not only on the distance from the station, but on what's in between, hills, houses, such things. It'd be a right pain to take all that into account and really pinpoint the location. Even if it could be done, I wouldn't worry too much, because I have nothing to be ashamed of.

09-23-2005, 07:51 PM	#18 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Hmmm, I find it hard to believe they can actually do it. When my cousin got mugged by gunpoint, I was actually on the phone with him at the time it happened. I immediately called 9-11. After getting a busy signal three times, then the answering machine twice (another thread), I got through. The operator person asked me where the crime was taking place I said I didn't know, but that my cousin was talking on the cell phone at the time with me, so couldn't they just track it through triangulation or GPS? NOPE, was the reply, sorry. If they actually can do it, then our 9-11 really, really sucks ass.

09-23-2005, 08:25 PM	#19 (permalink)
oberon Quadrature Amplitude Modulator Location: Denver	Umm, folks... radio signals can be triangulated using direction finding. It's not difficult. You can't have a cell phone without the ability to be located. ALL cell phones can be located to a good degree of precision, especially in a densely populated area (due to higher density of cell sites). Also: GPSs are receivers, not transmitters. They receive signals from the satellites to figure out where you're at. Even if your cell phone had GPS functionality (and not just location through direction finding with cell towers), you wouldn't be any more "vulnerable" than with any other cell phone. And finally: Any three points forms a triangle. __________________ "There are finer fish in the sea than have ever been caught." -- Irish proverb

09-23-2005, 09:55 PM	#20 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	e911 is supposed to be able to locate someone to where they are, everyone who has a cellphone pays extra for that service. Has it been implemented? nope, the monies have been used for other things instead of what they were allotted. at least 10 years of E911 payments have gotten me bupkis. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-23-2005, 11:32 PM	#22 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	I'd like to think that if I ever went missing, someone could find me using this GPS system. But I wonder if it is used for 'good'. By the time I am missing (24hours) i'd be the cell is dead. __________________ .