The mayor of New Orleans is coming unglued... NOW with a poll!! - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

meembo · 09-03-2005, 08:08 AM

I think there is a national consensus that the federal response continues to be slow and confused. Bush is a very appealing target for this frustration -- it comes with the office -- but I reluctantly admit my belief that the problem reflects national attitudes towards our second class citizens (i.e. those not white, not wealthy). The ambivalence of this forum reflects this.

I think it's a dodge to blame this on right-wing politicians. I sadly think the racism and classism is endemic to the population of the US in general, including Democrats who have fewer and fewer ties to the working poor of America. I'm a Democrat, and it pains me to say it, but it's hard to deny the failings we see in New Orleans.

ratbastid · 09-03-2005, 08:18 AM

After reading <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090102413.html">this article in the Washington Post</a>, my opinion of the guy has changed a lot.

Works out Ray Nagin is a first-time mayor, a political newcomer. He was an executive with Cox Communications, born and raised in New Orleans. He was elected in 2002 on a promise to clean up corruption.

This guy has inherited this disaster from his forbears. I want him speaking for his people--which is what he was doing on that radio interview. He's got no political agenda or grooming, he's just got the work there is in front of him.

Here's the article:

Quote:

After the Deluge, New Orleans's Mayor Nagin Stands His Ground

By Peter Carlson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 2, 2005; Page C01

His city is under water. There's no electricity, no water to drink. Broken gas lines cause flames to erupt from filthy floodwaters. Mobs loot stores and exchange shots with police. Hungry people fight over food. Dead bodies float through the streets while the living huddle on rooftops, awaiting rescue.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin stares at the apocalyptic wreckage of his city from a window in his makeshift command post in the Hyatt hotel, which sits across a flooded street from City Hall. His wife and three children have been evacuated. He has sent most of his staff to higher ground in Baton Rouge. But he remains behind, like a captain determined to stay with his sinking ship.

"He's gonna be there until this thing turns around," says Don Hutchinson, the mayor's director of economic development, speaking on a cell phone from Baton Rouge. "He's showing the leadership a mayor should show."

He's not a politician, not really. Nagin, 49, was a cable TV executive at Cox Communications, a man with no previous political experience, when he beat out 14 candidates to win election as mayor in 2002. Back then, he was a fresh face in New Orleans politics, a young guy with a shaved head who promised to clean up a corrupt city.

"Ninety-five percent of the time, it's the greatest job in the world," he told New Orleans magazine in 2004, "and 5 percent, it's the highest pain you could ever imagine."

Back then, he could not possibly have imagined the pain he is witnessing in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, one of the worst natural disasters in U.S. history.

"My heart is heavy tonight," he said Monday, sitting in the studio of WWL-TV in New Orleans. Dressed in a white T-shirt topped with what looked like an unbuttoned police or firefighter's shirt, he ticked off a list of problems in his slow Nawlins drawl -- "80 percent of the city is under water . . . we have an oil tanker that has run aground that is leaking oil . . . you see flames sparking up from the water . . . we have buildings that look like a bazooka was shot through them."

With the TV lights gleaming off his head, he summed up the scene: "It's really kind of a surreal situation, like a nightmare that I hope we'll wake up from."

That was Monday night. Since then, things have only gotten worse. Yesterday at the New Orleans Convention Center, where more than 15,000 people have taken refuge, corpses lay out in the open and mobs angered by a lack of food and water battled with police.

"This is a desperate SOS," Nagin said in a statement released to the media. "Currently, the Convention Center is unsanitary and unsafe and we are running out of supplies for 15,000 or 20,000 people."

In the halls of the Hyatt yesterday morning, the mayor was mobbed by citizens demanding to know when they could go home, when normal life would resume.

"You need to listen very carefully," Nagin told them, according to the Associated Press. "For the next two or three months, in this area, there will not be any commerce, at all. No electricity, no restaurants. This is the real deal. It's not living conditions."

Somehow, as his city collapses around him, he remains calm.

"The mayor is a very confident, very levelheaded person," says Hutchinson. "He's not one to react on a personal level. He's not panicky."

"He stays very calm under fire, and he stays very focused," City Council member Jackie Clarkson, mother of actress Patricia Clarkson, told the AP. "Through all the demands coming at him from different directions, he's stayed very focused on human life."

Nagin was born in 1956 in New Orleans's Charity Hospital, one of the hospitals that have now run out of food and water and been besieged by looters. His mother worked at a lunch counter in a Kmart. His father worked two jobs -- a fabric cutter in a clothing factory by day, a custodian at City Hall at night.

A hotshot pitcher in high school, Nagin went to Tuskegee University on a scholarship, graduating in 1978 with an accounting degree. He worked for General Motors in Detroit, then for financial services companies in Los Angeles and Dallas. In 1982 he married a childhood friend, Seletha Smith. Three years later, Nagin was hired by Cox and he and Seletha returned to New Orleans, where they raised two sons, Jeremy and Jarin, and a daughter, Tianna. He was making about $400,000 a year when he was elected mayor, a job that paid $110,000.

"I'm going to need your help," he told his supporters the night he won the election. "I don't have a Superman undershirt on underneath this coat."

He promised to take on the city's entrenched culture of corruption and kick-start the economy. Flood prevention was not a major issue in the election, although it must have been on the new mayor's mind: In 2004, he told New Orleans magazine that his favorite book about the city was John Barry's "Rising Tide: The Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 and How It Changed America."

Yesterday, Nagin had more important things to do than talk about his personal reactions to the destruction of his home town. But Pat Owens, a 64-year-old woman living in Ocala, Fla., thought she knew what was going through Nagin's mind. Owens was the mayor of Grand Forks, N.D., in 1997, when the city of 50,000 was wiped out by the flooding of the Red River.

"It's like a nightmare," she says. "You're torn in so many different directions. You have to make decisions and you can't wait. You have to act immediately. . . . It's hard. You really feel like you're all alone."

She dealt with looting, angry citizens and an evacuation that was, she says, the biggest in U.S. history since the Civil War.

"I worked on adrenaline for months," she says, "because I didn't sleep. My staff and I worked 20 hours a day for weeks."

Dealing with the floodwater was tough enough, she says, but dealing with citizens was tougher.

"They were very testy because they couldn't go back to their homes," she says. "They blame the city officials for the flood. You are blamed for water coming in."

And then, when federal money finally arrives, she says, "people get so angry because somebody got more dollars than them."

Three years after her flood, Owens ran for reelection. She lost by about 300 votes.

"They just looked upon me as the flood mayor," she says, "and they think that if you're gone, the flood will be gone, too. I was very, very hurt."

Yesterday, she had a bit of hard-earned advice for Mayor Nagin: "You just have to do what you think is right, because you're not going to please everybody."

mystmarimatt · 09-03-2005, 08:28 AM

Quote:

I have no idea what they're doing. But I will tell you this: You know, God is looking down on all this, and if they are not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price.

Baa-Zing

That one stings a bit. I like this guy, especially after the article ratbastid posted.

raeanna74 · 09-03-2005, 11:58 AM

I have mixed feelings about his outburst. I do appreciate how he manages to convey his frustration and anger for the people of his city. I wonder somewhat if there wasn't something that could have been done on his part prior to the hurricane. I heard predictions that it was going to hit their city before people were trapped there. Yet I am surprised that the people were bussed to a facility where no one had planned to provide food and water. It's a sad situation all around.

Personally I have one question (not intended to threadjack) - Why would people choose to live in a city that has such a tenuous hold on land that they need multiple levees to hold back the ocean. I understand the necessity for some countries but here in the United States there are much cheaper places to live than in New Orleans and much safer places to live. Why do people do it?

ratbastid · 09-03-2005, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

Personally I have one question (not intended to threadjack) - Why would people choose to live in a city that has such a tenuous hold on land that they need multiple levees to hold back the ocean. I understand the necessity for some countries but here in the United States there are much cheaper places to live than in New Orleans and much safer places to live. Why do people do it?

It is sort of hard for us flatlanders to grasp, isn't it? I can't really explain it either, except to say that most of NO was financially incapable of getting themselves out. That and, if you've ever visited the city, it has certain charms that would tend to offset the risks.

Besides, it had always been below sea level, and it had never been a serious problem before right?

feelgood · 09-03-2005, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

It is sort of hard for us flatlanders to grasp, isn't it? I can't really explain it either, except to say that most of NO was financially incapable of getting themselves out. That and, if you've ever visited the city, it has certain charms that would tend to offset the risks.

Besides, it had always been below sea level, and it had never been a serious problem before right?

And the Dutch? At the heights of the Dutch Empire, they had huge flood problems and yet, they were still able to survive as a empire that colonized some islands in Americas, the Indies, etc. Why would the dutch people still live in a flatland that often had flooding problem that amount up to more sevre than New Orleans?

I suppose the better question would be this, How did the Dutch learn to survive?

Elphaba · 09-03-2005, 08:19 PM

Ask Cuba how they do it. 20,000 homes lost in the last hurricane to hit them and not a single loss of life.

texxasco · 09-04-2005, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadro2000

I listened to the entire interview, and afterwards, I thought: I wish my elected officials were that real. I don't know what he sounded like before this event, but this is a man who is clearly emotionally affected by what has happened, and will do whatever he has to do in order to get people to, as he said, get off their asses and help. I'd rather hear him speak frankly, even if he sounds angry or uses bad language, than see another image of President Bush pretending to look concerned about anything.

Yes it appears he would do whatever he had to to get people off their asses and help. But what isn't being talked about is how he caught grief from the citizens of New Orleans for the inept way he has handled matters prior to Katrina, and the majority of that grief came from members of the black community. But when the caucasion members criticised him, people made comments about race being their motivation for their criticism. What's that? BS is what it is. Yes he's emotional because he is an idiot and he screwed up....and now he does like so many others do when they screw up.....rant and rave, and then point the finger at someone else. As long as the spotlight is off him and on Bush, then he doesn't come across as the dumbass that he is. I will give the Mayor this though... I don't think it was a planned attack on Bush to save face... Why? Because he's not that smart. It was just a gut reaction to what was going on. Too bad he didn't have a gut reaction to the news that Hurricane Katrina was headed towards New Orleans. He's frustrated? What about the people swimming in filth, going without food and water, etc? Texans have done more for the residents of New Orleans than the Mayor did himself...and as of CNN's report this morning (7am 9/4/05) we have provided refuge for over 220,000 so far, and that number is still growing. The groundwork for all that is going on could have been planned for, and laid out months and years before it happened, yet it wasn't. But people saw that interview and they say, "What Guts!", and "I wish MY elected officials were more like him". No they don't.

This racial spin that is starting to heat up is really sickening to watch. The Mayor is black, yet he failed the citizens of New Orleans that needed him most, the poor, the elderly, the children, and the many thousands who did NOT have the means to evacuate even if they wanted to. Now the media and many prominent people in the black community are trying to say race was was the reason relief was so slow in coming. That's not just crazy, but ignorant. What about all those buses (school) buses camptured on film that were flooded, parked. The Mayor supposedly represents ALL the citizens, yet he barely managed the task of ordering an evacuation. He should have mobilized every Transit Bus, every school bus, and any other buses in the city in a massive effort to move those that could not move themselves out of harms way. What was the Mayor thinking? Were all these folks gonna just snap their fingers and everything was gonna be alright?

The facts will all come out afterwards, but it isn't helping matters when morons like Kanye West go on TV (Red Cross Telethon) and make ignorant statements like "George Bush doesn't care about Black people", etc... What about the Mayor of New Orleans? He's black...is he racist? That's BS and everybody knows it. Kanye West too shooses to shoot off his mouth, when in fact could have been doing something as well before hand, but instead he chose to flash his money, stroke his ego, and party with the MTV crowd when he could have been trying to connect with the very people he says are being ignored.

As for the looting going on in New Orleans.... It's illegal, but because of the magnitude of the situation, I can see where looking the other way is appropriate when it is food, water, clothing, or other NECESSITIES being stolen. Until relief arrived... It is arriving now, so people aren't gonan be looking the other way for much longer. But, what about all the electronics, jewelry, etc that has been SEEN being looted from business in New Orleans? Who in the hell is gonna benefit from a TV when there is no electricity? Jewelry, etc.... What good is that stuff? Well it's worth money after all this is over, that's what...and that's the reason they're stealing that stuff. These are greedy thieves and thugs capitalizing on the misfortunes of others, and it is wrong, wrong, wrong!

The failures in the relief effort from the Federal Gov't need to be identified, and the responsible people held responsible. Another issue is why wasn't more money allocated to prevent the failure of the levies PRIOR to Katrina.... WHy in this country does it take a catastrophy to wake people up? But, this is NOT a black and white issue. The focus needs to be on helping these people, and not making a damn racial issue out of it. I am so sick of people pulling out that 'ol race card whenever it is convenient for them. Its just damn ignorant!

I realize some of this post is off topic, but more or less went along with what is going on with the mayor.....it's all a terrible tragedy.

Seer666 · 09-04-2005, 07:46 AM

I don't know. While I like that interveiw, it nice to see someone who isn't a PC zombie, I still think this has been a cluster fuck from the neck up. Every level of goverment has dropped the ball on this one. NO should have been MUCH better prepaird for this. The city is BELOW SEA LEVEL FOR GODS SAKE! You can't tell me they just though everything would be honkey dorry forever and ever amen. Anyone with 2 brain cells in their head could see soemthing like this happening. As soon as weather cleared enough for helos to fly, they should have been dropping troops and food, mounting rescue missions, doing whatever the fuck they had to get them poeple out of there and keep things under controle. If the local goverment does have to autherise federal help, they should have picked up the phone as soon as the big bitch landed there and cleared whoever for whatever. Now it is just everyone trying to point fingers instead of doing anything. Even the Pres has less then impressed me with his reaction to this. In the press conference I saw he came of as so insencer about this whole mess, I wanted to choke him. And this from someone who admits freely they don't really give a shit about most other people. The thing that makes this so bad to me, is not only is in a national disater, but it's rapidly turned into a national embaressment.

vautrain · 09-04-2005, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texxasco

He should have mobilized every Transit Bus, every school bus, and any other buses in the city in a massive effort to move those that could not move themselves out of harms way. What was the Mayor thinking?

Actually, your scenario is rather unworkable, given the resources needed and the time available. In order to evacuate 100,000 people by bus, the mayor would have needed:

1700 buses
1700 bus drivers
1700 police
70,000 gallons of diesel

The time needed is open to debate, but I think he would have needed three days at a minimum, probably four days.

The fact is, he had fewer than 48 hours. There were about 36-40 hours remaining, when everyone began to realize New Orleans would likely be hit by a Cat 4 or stronger storm. I think the mayor could have evacuated up to 20,000 in that time frame, but it would have been at the expense of the other people trying to evacuate on their own, and it would have been at the expense of the remaining 80,000 to 90,000 who could or would not evacuate on their own.

Given the time frame, no one could have evacuated 100,000 people.

texxasco · 09-05-2005, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vautrain

Actually, your scenario is rather unworkable, given the resources needed and the time available. In order to evacuate 100,000 people by bus, the mayor would have needed:

1700 buses
1700 bus drivers
1700 police
70,000 gallons of diesel

The time needed is open to debate, but I think he would have needed three days at a minimum, probably four days.

The fact is, he had fewer than 48 hours. There were about 36-40 hours remaining, when everyone began to realize New Orleans would likely be hit by a Cat 4 or stronger storm. I think the mayor could have evacuated up to 20,000 in that time frame, but it would have been at the expense of the other people trying to evacuate on their own, and it would have been at the expense of the remaining 80,000 to 90,000 who could or would not evacuate on their own.

Given the time frame, no one could have evacuated 100,000 people.

The fact is every person that would have made it out of there would have been an improvement over the way things actually transpired. It is also fact that the man NEVER EVEN MADE AN ETTEMPT to get anybody out who wasn't able to get out on their own. And, to add insult to injury, THERE WASN'T EVEN ANY CONTINGENCY PLAN to do so either!

I take issue with the amount of time the man had, and the amount of resource he had available but like you say it is, and will be open for debate for a long time to come.

I had no real scenario to speak of. I was merely pointing out that he could have done something, and gotten thousands out had he wanted to do so. I realize that not everyone would have left even if they had been afforded the opportunity. But You and I, as well as everybody else knows that there could have been lives saved, countless lives that DID NOT have to end because of his failure to act. The man DIDN'T HAVE THE BALLS or INTELLIGENCE to do any more than he did...and that amounted to nothing. Yet, once the shit hit the fan, what does Mayor Ray Nagin do? He blows up, and then points the finger at others for THEIR slow response. Well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

Put away your calculator for a minute and just look over the 3-4 days prior to the hurricane hitting land, and then 5-6 days afterwards.... What was the Mayor doing? Saving his own ass.

vautrain · 09-05-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texxasco

The fact is every person that would have made it out of there would have been an improvement over the way things actually transpired. It is also fact that the man NEVER EVEN MADE AN ETTEMPT to get anybody out who wasn't able to get out on their own. And, to add insult to injury, THERE WASN'T EVEN ANY CONTINGENCY PLAN to do so either!

I take issue with the amount of time the man had, and the amount of resource he had available but like you say it is, and will be open for debate for a long time to come.

I had no real scenario to speak of. I was merely pointing out that he could have done something, and gotten thousands out had he wanted to do so. I realize that not everyone would have left even if they had been afforded the opportunity. But You and I, as well as everybody else knows that there could have been lives saved, countless lives that DID NOT have to end because of his failure to act. The man DIDN'T HAVE THE BALLS or INTELLIGENCE to do any more than he did...and that amounted to nothing. Yet, once the shit hit the fan, what does Mayor Ray Nagin do? He blows up, and then points the finger at others for THEIR slow response. Well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

Put away your calculator for a minute and just look over the 3-4 days prior to the hurricane hitting land, and then 5-6 days afterwards.... What was the Mayor doing? Saving his own ass.

3-4 days prior to the hurricane? You think you can just evacuate the entire city every time a hurricane shows up in the gulf? You obviously don't live anywhere near the gulf. This storm was a 200-300 year storm, but hurricanes show up in the gulf all the time. Even hurricanes that look like they're headed straight for New Orleans are not rare.

Certainly, there were failures preparing and responding to this disaster at all levels of government, but to assign blame to the mayor (or anyone else) for not getting everyone out of the city prior to this hurricane is simply uninformed.

Like I said, I think it's possible he could have evacuated 10,000 to 20,000 out of the city. This would have been a fraction of the people who might have been willing to leave (who do you choose to stay and go?). It also would have been at the expense of the people who could not have left.

texxasco · 09-05-2005, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vautrain

3-4 days prior to the hurricane? You think you can just evacuate the entire city every time a hurricane shows up in the gulf? You obviously don't live anywhere near the gulf. This storm was a 200-300 year storm, but hurricanes show up in the gulf all the time. Even hurricanes that look like they're headed straight for New Orleans are not rare.

You bet... By the time Katrina was hitting Florida, a projected path showed New Orleans as the most likely target. The ball should have been started rolling, but instead it was dropped....better yet it wasn't even picked up. You sure can't evacuate an entire city every time a Hurricane shows up in the gulf. Obviously I don't live anywhere near the gulf? Well I would say so... I live just north of Houston in Huntsville. How close would you like me to be? How many evacuations have you worked? I happen to work for the transportation dept of my states prison system, and I have evacuated prisons in the Beaumont area.....when winds and rain were blowing so hard I could barely see the bus in front of me, and almost knocking our buses over in the process. I can remember driving for 36-45 hours straight without a break trying to get the job done, along with my co-workers and other drivers. I can remember having an officer from the unit we were evacuating ride along with me in the fornt of the bus, and me saying to him..."Just talk to me, talk to me about anything so I don't fall asleep", while we made trip after trip back and forth until all were evacuated. And just this past July When Emily threatened the Brownsville area, where were you? I can tell you where I was. The Saturday prior I rolled into Beeville with an approximate 80 bus convoy from all over the state. Sunday we rolled out to Lopez State Jail, Segovia Transfer, and Willacy County Jail. We ended up not evacuating anybody, but we have a contingency plan, and we were prepared...that's my big point. We were ready, and we made an effort...and I am just talking about convicts. My role was just a small part of a bigger plan to get everyone involved to safe haven.

I have also personally talked to some survivors here in Huntsville, yes that's right....here in Huntsville we have over 1,000 from New Orleans, Mississippi, and Alabama. I worked at a shelter passing out supplies, and talking to (mainly listening to) people tell their stories. One thing I heard over and over was how the mayor and the rest of the city turned their backs on them. Many wanted to go but couldn't.....and I also talked to some that did not want to go, but had to later on due to flooding.

Don't go making assumptions about people,...you know what assuming does, don't you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vautrain

Certainly, there were failures preparing and responding to this disaster at all levels of government, but to assing blame to the mayor (or anyone else) for not getting everyone out of the city prior to this hurricane is simply uninformed.

I have not once stated the Mayor of NO should have, or even could have gotten everyone out of NW before Katrina hit. It's idiotic to even think he could have acomplished that. Even IF everyone could have been offered a ride out, many would not have taken it. That's fact. However, a good portion could have been evacuated had resources been utilized in and around new Orleans alone... I have done it myself. I have hauled people out of danger before it arrived. What he and his city council COULD have had was a contingency plan IN PLACE for such things. You say Katrina was a 200-300 year storm, but it wouldn't take hurricane to flood the bowl that we call New Orleans to the point that folks would have to get out. Do you remember Tropical Storm Allison, and what it did to Houston? I had personal dealings with THAT ONE as well. The city of Houston, the same city who is taking in more evacuees than any other single city in the US, had a contingency plan....they put it into place, and it saved lives.

People are taking the time to blast the federal government, and yes there were failures at every level of government....but it starts at home, at the lowest level of government and that means the city council and mayor of New Orleans, as well as the other cities affected. The Mayor of New Orleans, as well as members of the city council failed the citizens of New Orleans. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vautrain

Like I said, I think it's possible he could have evacuated 10,000 to 20,000 out of the city. This would have been a fraction of the people who might have been willing to leave (who do you choose to stay and go?). It also would have been at the expense of the people who could not have left.

This also would have been a fraction of people to survive as well, rather than die from the hurricane or the flooding afterwards. If NO had a plan and executed it, we could look back and critique what they did.... but they didn't do ANYTHING. Don't you get it? Anything would have been better than nothing.... 1 - 1 single life saved would have been worth the effort. He could have started with the sick and elderly.... Haven't you heard the reports comign from the hospitals that lost lives because they couldn't come up with basic necessities..ie; running water, electricity, etc... Just evacuating the sick and elderly would have gone a long ways. But for many being sick and/or elderly was their death sentence.

BTW.... Where do you live? If YOU lived near the Gulf region you would know that Hurricane season is a big deal every year, and every city should have some sort of contingency plan in case of a hurricane. And, if you were familiar with the area you would know that it doesn't take a hurricane to cause the massive devastation and loss of life we are seeing.... a good tropical storm stalling off the coast like Allison did will do quite a bit of damage on it's own.

vautrain · 09-05-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texxasco

You bet... By the time Katrina was hitting Florida, a projected path showed New Orleans as the most likely target.

I don't believe that's the case. New Orleans was a long shot when Katrina was hitting Florida.

Quote:

I happen to work for the transportation dept of my states prison system, and I have evacuated prisons in the Beaumont area...

Don't go making assumptions about people,...you know what assuming does, don't you?

I apologize for the assumption. I don't live in the area, but I have plenty of family who live in Houston, and as far south as the gulf coast. My sister lived in New Orleans until this time last week. Family members in Texas are now housing my sister, as well as several friends from New Orleans.

Quote:

I have not once stated the Mayor of NO should have, or even could have gotten everyone out of NW before Katrina hit. It's idiotic to even think he could have acomplished that. Even IF everyone could have been offered a ride out, many would not have taken it. That's fact. However, a good portion could have been evacuated had resources been utilized in and around new Orleans alone...

The final chapter has yet to be written, but my contention is the mayor could have evacuated some people, only at the expense of the ones who remained. In other words, police and other resources would have been devoted to the evacuation process (and many would have had to leave with the evacuees) and the remaining people would have been left with nothing- probably not even the shelter of the Superdome.

Quote:

People are taking the time to blast the federal government, and yes there were failures at every level of government....but it starts at home, at the lowest level of government and that means the city council and mayor of New Orleans, as well as the other cities affected. The Mayor of New Orleans, as well as members of the city council failed the citizens of New Orleans. Period.

Well, maybe if the Army Corps of Engineers levee projects hadn't been underfunded over the past thirty years, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Quote:

This also would have been a fraction of people to survive as well, rather than die from the hurricane or the flooding afterwards. If NO had a plan and executed it, we could look back and critique what they did.... but they didn't do ANYTHING. Don't you get it? Anything would have been better than nothing.... 1 - 1 single life saved would have been worth the effort. He could have started with the sick and elderly.... Haven't you heard the reports comign from the hospitals that lost lives because they couldn't come up with basic necessities..ie; running water, electricity, etc... Just evacuating the sick and elderly would have gone a long ways. But for many being sick and/or elderly was their death sentence.

I wouldn't say they didn't do anything. Whether their plan was adequate, I don't know. I do know there was no way given the timeline and resources, as I understand them, to evacuate even half the people that needed to be evacuated. Obviously, the best case scenario would have been to evacuate 500,000 residents in 24 hours, and to have had Cat5-resistant levees. But, that didn't happen.

Hospital evacuations are tricky. It's not even as simple as loading everyone on buses. Many or most patients need to be evacuated by ambulance, and many other patients need to be airlifted out. I have a close family member involved in emergency planning at a major hospital here, it's not an easy thing to do.

texxasco · 09-05-2005, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vautrain

I don't believe that's the case. New Orleans was a long shot when Katrina was hitting Florida.

I apologize for the assumption. I don't live in the area, but I have plenty of family who live in Houston, and as far south as the gulf coast. My sister lived in New Orleans until this time last week. Family members in Texas are now housing my sister, as well as several friends from New Orleans.

The final chapter has yet to be written, but my contention is the mayor could have evacuated some people, only at the expense of the ones who remained. In other words, police and other resources would have been devoted to the evacuation process (and many would have had to leave with the evacuees) and the remaining people would have been left with nothing- probably not even the shelter of the Superdome.

Well, maybe if the Army Corps of Engineers levee projects hadn't been underfunded over the past thirty years, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I wouldn't say they didn't do anything. Whether their plan was adequate, I don't know. I do know there was no way given the timeline and resources, as I understand them, to evacuate even half the people that needed to be evacuated. Obviously, the best case scenario would have been to evacuate 500,000 residents in 24 hours, and to have had Cat5-resistant levees. But, that didn't happen.

Hospital evacuations are tricky. It's not even as simple as loading everyone on buses. Many or most patients need to be evacuated by ambulance, and many other patients need to be airlifted out. I have a close family member involved in emergency planning at a major hospital here, it's not an easy thing to do.

Yes.... Finally on one thing we agree... The levy system has been underfunded for years and years. Had the levee system held, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But, I maintain that those in NO knew better than anybody else, and really should have been better prepared. I bet when they rebuild, they'll be better prepared fro now on.

I also know that yes indeed, according to NOAA weather, when Katrina was hitting Florida the projected path did show it hitting somewhere between Biloxi and New Orleans. I hate this time of year mainly because I am on call so much...because of hurricanes. TDCJ has units in low lying areas, ie; Brownsville area, and also Beaumont...and my whole dept is on edge anticipating an evacuation trip. I received a teletype with the projected path being what I stated, and I got it from work.

Oh well... nothing to do now but watch it all unfold...

vautrain · 09-05-2005, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texxasco

I also know that yes indeed, according to NOAA weather, when Katrina was hitting Florida the projected path did show it hitting somewhere between Biloxi and New Orleans.

It appears that on 8/26, a day after Katrina hit Florida, NOAA figured there was a 10% chance of a hit on New Orleans. Also, it wasn't until 8/27 that Katrina was upgraded to Cat3, and it wasn't upgraded to Cat4 until 8/28.

I don't think you can evacuate on a 10% chance. If you evacuated a city the size of New Orleans, and were wrong 9 out of 10 times, you'd be strung up by your toes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrica...na#Predictions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ricane_Katrina

Quote:

Oh well... nothing to do now but watch it all unfold...

I'm involving myself in some fundraising projects right now (I just raised $100 a few minutes before I posted this) , and I'm looking for charities that will specifically target child victims of Katrina. I'm sure you're doing your part, also, and I thank you for that.

I totally agree, government at all levels will learn from this tragedy- we can only hope- and next time they can be better prepared to both protect the city and get the heck out of there.

texxasco · 09-05-2005, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vautrain

It appears that on 8/26, a day after Katrina hit Florida, NOAA figured there was a 10% chance of a hit on New Orleans. Also, it wasn't until 8/27 that Katrina was upgraded to Cat3, and it wasn't upgraded to Cat4 until 8/28.

I don't think you can evacuate on a 10% chance. If you evacuated a city the size of New Orleans, and were wrong 9 out of 10 times, you'd be strung up by your toes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrica...na#Predictions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ricane_Katrina

I'm involving myself in some fundraising projects right now (I just raised $100 a few minutes before I posted this) , and I'm looking for charities that will specifically target child victims of Katrina. I'm sure you're doing your part, also, and I thank you for that.

I totally agree, government at all levels will learn from this tragedy- we can only hope- and next time they can be better prepared to both protect the city and get the heck out of there.

We never saw any percentages.....we were just given a teletype showing a graphic of a cone and the most probable area the eye would hit somewhere just west of New Orleans extending all the way up to just east of Biloxi,MS. It mentioned that Katrina at that time was a Cat1, and she was expected to gain considerable strength once reaching the warmer waters of the gulf of mexico. Anyway..... I agree to disagree with you at this point. I maintain my position, and I am sure you do as well... Like I stated previously, all we can do is watch it all unfold. I spent a little time tonight helping out at the Red Cross shelter set up at 1st Baptist church here in Huntsville. I also found out that I might have some neighbors soon, and those being evacuees. It's a small world....

powerclown · 09-05-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanT

There is no excuse for Mayor Nagin to be unprepared for this disaster. While there is plenty of blame to go around, the burden of preparedness and evacuation was his and he blew it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I think unglued is the best description for him.

Its a shame that NO had such incompetent leadership when it needed a leader most.

2 wise men speaketh.
Nagin is no Giuliani, thats for sure.

And whats he going to do to celebrate the worst natural disaster in the history of the country?
Why, send his crew to Vegas, of course!...PARTY TIME!!!

Quote:

NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 4 - A day after two police suicides and the abrupt resignations or desertions of up to 200 police officers, defiant city officials on Sunday began offering five-day vacations - and even trips to Las Vegas - to the police, firefighters and city emergency workers and their families.

The idea of paid vacations was raised by both Mayor C. Ray Nagin and senior police officials who said that their forces were exhausted and traumatized and that the arrival of the National Guard had made way for the officers to be relieved.

"I'm very concerned about individuals who have been here, particularly since the first few days, and have been through a lot of hardship," Mr. Nagin said in an interview.

He said most of the police officers, firefighters and emergency medical workers "are starting to show signs of very, very serious stress, and this is a way to give them time to reunite with their families."

Mr. Nagin, who has been demanding more federal assistance for days as his city struggled with despair, death and flooding, said he had asked the Federal Emergency Management Agency to pay for the trips but the agency said it could not. He said the city, therefore, would pay the costs.

He said he believed there were now enough National Guard members in the city to allow the police to take a break and still keep the city secure, and he brushed off questions about whether such a trip might look like a dereliction of duty.

"I'll take the heat on that," Mr. Nagin said. "We want to cater to them."

His words were seconded by the police superintendent, P. Edwin Compass III, in a separate interview. "When you go through something this devastating and traumatic," Mr. Compass said, "you've got to do something dramatic to jump-start the healing process."

The officials were planning to send 1,500 workers out in two shifts for five days each. They are sending them to Las Vegas because of the availability of hotel rooms and to Atlanta because many of them had relatives there.

They said that they were trying to get the first officers on their way on Monday and that the first stop would be Baton Rouge, about 75 miles from here.

There the officers will be given physical examinations and inoculations against possible infection from the polluted floodwaters, said Col. Terry Ebbert, the director of homeland security for the city, who has authority over the police and fire departments and other emergency services.

Then, Colonel Ebbert and other officials said, those who want to go to Las Vegas or Atlanta will be given air transportation and a hotel room. The city is reserving hotel rooms in Baton Rouge, they said, adding that the officers and firefighters may also be given the choice of flying to other cities.

Colonel Ebbert, the senior official running the recovery and rescue operation, and Mr. Compass both said that they planned to take a break as well, but probably for less than five days, and that they would continue to direct the recovery by telephone.

Officials said they expected the military, with much greater resources, to expand rescue work, begin cleaning up the city and take the first steps toward reconstruction.

W. J. Riley, the deputy superintendent of police, said that by late Sunday afternoon more than 2,900 National Guard members and law enforcement officers from around the country were operating in New Orleans. By early evening, Mr. Riley said, the advance units of a 2,200-person force from the 82nd Airborne Division had landed.

Several thousand more soldiers were expected, including members of the First Cavalry Division.

Reinforcements are also expected for the fire department. Senior firefighters, who have been forced to ignore some fires and to try merely to keep the worst blazes from spreading, said that several hundred firefighters with fire engines and radio equipment were heading for New Orleans from departments around the country.

New Orleans officials said they would remain in charge. Mr. Riley, who has been on the police force for 24 years, will oversee the police department in the superintendent's absence.

"We haven't turned over control of the city," Colonel Ebbert said.

Mr. Riley said that 40 percent of the city's force of about 1,200 officers would remain at their posts while the others were on leave. When the first group returns, Mr. Riley said, those who stayed behind will get a break.

Deputy Fire Chief Joseph Matthews, who is also the director of the city's Office of Emergency Preparedness, said officials viewed the time off for their security forces as essential. "We've been at this six days and we need to give our people a break," he said.

Contrast this to what the NYC police and firefighters did after 9-1-1. (Answer: Got busy.)

After draining all the water, the second step to rebuilding NOLA should be to hire another mayor.

feelgood · 09-06-2005, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

After draining all the water, the second step to rebuilding NOLA should be to hire another mayor.

Hire another mayor eh? I didn't know democracy has gotten so bad in the USA that people can no longer vote for a new mayor...

/end sarcasm

vautrain · 09-06-2005, 06:36 AM

I don't see how trying to relieve his police force is an example of Nagin's incompetence. He's had two suicides already. What should he do, tell them to work harder?

splck · 09-06-2005, 08:05 AM

Comparing 911 to this is ridiculous. A couple of buildings Vs an entire city. Hardly the same I'd say. Giuliani would have come unglued (and rightfully so) if nobody showed up to help when the towers fell and his citizens were trapped for days on end. Again, comparing this disaster to 911 is complete bullshit.

The way this disaster has been handled so far is totally unacceptable, but it sounds about right based on the amount of planning and cutbacks from all levels of government.

Ustwo · 09-06-2005, 08:19 AM

I really have a hard time understanding why ANYONE here is sticking up for this guy.

I guess thats how incompetent people get elected in the first place. He did NOTHING to prepare his city, it goes to hell, and he comes unglued. What he needs is a slapping.

vautrain · 09-06-2005, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

He did NOTHING to prepare his city, it goes to hell, and he comes unglued.

OK, if you want to fingerpoint, Bush did NOTHING to fix and build up the levee system that had been in a state of disrepair for years, and both state and local officials AND the Army Corps of Engineers had been warning the feds about it for a long time.

I'm reminded of a Boudreaux joke, the punch line of which goes something like this- Are you gonna fish, or are you gonna bitch?

Bodyhammer86 · 09-06-2005, 11:41 AM

Except nothing the Army Corps of Engineers could've done would have kept the levee system from collapsing, and besides that, the levees were made to protect the city from a category 3 hurricane, not a category 5 monster like Katrina.

jorgelito · 09-06-2005, 11:54 AM

They were slated to be upgraded to withstand Category 5 but their funding got cut.

powerclown · 09-06-2005, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splck

...comparing this disaster to 911 is complete bullshit.

Put it this way: In New York, Giuliani had about 30 seconds advance notice of a disaster, and reacted calmly and effectively. In New Orleans, Nagin watched a disaster unfold over a period of many days, and panicked. To me, this sheds much light on the type of leader each one is/isn't.

texxasco · 09-06-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vautrain

I don't see how trying to relieve his police force is an example of Nagin's incompetence. He's had two suicides already. What should he do, tell them to work harder?

YES! Think of all the displaced citizens of New orleans...Where is their all expense paid trip to Vegas?

It's tough all over....and it is a sad day when the cops are taking time out to vacation in Vegas, at their wonderful mayor's offering, while the rest of the city swims in shit. Not to mention all the federal troops and aid workers now in the city working to locate citizens, find the dead, and basically assess the loss of life at this point, and pump out the water....and you send your first line of defense for the citizens and the city itself...on vacation... Insane...

Nice Touch Mayor Nagin!! Bravo!!

vautrain · 09-06-2005, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texxasco

It's tough all over....and it is a sad day when the cops are taking time out to vacation in Vegas, at their wonderful mayor's offering, while the rest of the city swims in shit.

I don't think he's sending all of them at once, that's for sure. I think he's trying to keep them from killing themselves, more than already have, anyway. If you have two employees kill themselves, you don't tell the rest of them to work harder. You figure out what's going on, and you try to give them what they need in order to keep going.

Almost a year and a half after 9/11, nearly 10% of the emergency workers at the WTC site were deemed suicidal enough to be referred to mental health professionals for evaluation and counseling. Many of the NO police have lost their homes, friends, even family.

vautrain · 09-06-2005, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

They were slated to be upgraded to withstand Category 5 but their funding got cut.

Precisely. The Army Corps of Engineers had even contemplated a sea wall project. I don't know what the status of that was, but if they could barely get funding to maintain the cat 3 levees, there was no way they were going to get funding for a sea wall.

It's been going on for years and years.

texxasco · 09-06-2005, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vautrain

Precisely. The Army Corps of Engineers had even contemplated a sea wall project. I don't know what the status of that was, but if they could barely get funding to maintain the cat 3 levees, there was no way they were going to get funding for a sea wall.

It's been going on for years and years.

Yes it has.....many years in fact. I won't hold my breath, but what do you want to bet they get their funding now?

analog · 09-07-2005, 02:07 AM

Regarding the "sending police on vacation, and to las vegas" bit:

They'd had 2 suicides, one being a high-profile spokesperson. They'd had 200+ officers leave from the stress. In addition to the police force are all the EMS workers. All those that stayed, worked about 20 hours a day, every day, seeing nothing but dead bodies- stranded, hungry, thirsty people they can't help- people roaming the city with guns, fires, countless wounded, sick, dying people, in endless streams. These people are traumatized by their experience. We give those in armed services our respect and reverence, and our help, from trauma disorders. I think what these people have been through, based on their usual tasks and job responsibilities, has been a nightmare of unimaginable proportions. There's only so much a person can take, even a professional, before the mind and the body start to wind down from stress, lack of sleep, and the relentless horror.

Being critical of decisions in an orderly and well-articulated argument is one thing...

...being a crass, sarcastic jackass about police officers and other EMS workers being "sent on vacation" is a bit much.

They're there to try and forget the hundreds, maybe thousands of people they've seen dead or dying, those they couldn't save, and the destruction of their own city, their own homes. As it is, most of these people risk their lives and push the limits of their human workload on a regular basis as it is, and they're not getting rich doing so. But on the whole, they are proud to do it. After what they've been through, you're going to shit on all of them by bitching about a 5-day rest? It did mention that counseling was part of it, btw, and most of them will need some form of it, even if it's second-hand from a friend, colleague, or maybe just a stranger and fellow victim.

The military has taken over policing, and there are plenty of medical resources at their disposal. To this point, there is an article on cnn.com that had some NOLA official saying they had plenty of medical personnel, but only 10 boats, and that was slowing their rescues. They have the help they need. At some point, you have to rotate exhausted people out and let fresh people in to the core. Pretty much no one can carry on indefinitely.

Bill O'Rights · 09-07-2005, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

Put it this way: In New York, Giuliani had about 30 seconds advance notice of a disaster, and reacted calmly and effectively. In New Orleans, Nagin watched a disaster unfold over a period of many days, and panicked. To me, this sheds much light on the type of leader each one is/isn't.

Giuliani didn't have much to do that was critical or that would have made the difference between life and death, his was mostly a PR job. Aterwards there were few injured and hardly any dead bodies to deal with (comparatively), and except for a small part of downtown the city, albeit in shock, was still operational, and able to support the displaced. Nagin has lost all his infrastructure and is seeing people die every day while the federal government sat on its ass for days, and is keeping his resolve admirably. He shares part of the responsibility for the lack of preparation (though most of it seems to be FEMA's), but he has been very impressive since then, given what he has to work with.

byesman · 09-07-2005, 09:17 AM

My father taught me a long time ago that "The reason people blame other people is that there's only one other option." I think everyone is in the wrong here, and I think heads need to roll. Unfortunately, they are starting the finger pointing and blaming a little to soon for me. It's been about 9-10 days and there are people who still need to be rescued.

bparker805 · 09-07-2005, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vautrain

OK, if you want to fingerpoint, Bush did NOTHING to fix and build up the levee system

This is NOT Bush's responsibilty. The tax payers were going to be the ones responsible for the repairs. I heard an amount of 20 billion to upgrade these levees... Now is it the federal government that is responsible for repairing the levees or does it come down to the state or local government to fix it? And if it does, did it come to a vote? Did tax payers decide that 20 billion was way too much? My guess is that if it did, people would have scoffed at ponying up 20 bill!

powerclown · 09-07-2005, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Giuliani didn't have much to do that was critical or that would have made the difference between life and death, his was mostly a PR job.

Effective leadership is always a PR job isnt it?

I'm not arguing the particulars of each disaster...I'm criticizing the reactions of the respective leaders. I also think you're short-changing Giuliani's organizational skills in handling the crisis during and after it happened. I didn't see Giuliani in front of a tv camera blaming Bush and the CIA for intelligence failures while the towers were collapsing. Or blaming anyone else for that matter. Notice how Nagin has become quite docile and conciliatory now that the situation has come under control? Like Ustwo said, I can't understand why anyone would stick up for this guy.

analog, the irony is apparently lost on you if you don't see what a farce sending your police force to Vegas is. These are public servants who have taken an oath to protect and serve the public. TO PROTECT AND SERVE THE PUBLIC. Not abdicate in the face of hardship. One of the cops who killed himself lost his wife in the flood. I appreciate the concept of stress management, but now is not the time.

smooth · 09-07-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

I didn't see Giuliani in front of a tv camera blaming Bush and the CIA for intelligence failures while the towers were collapsing.

That's because he was standing next to him pledging support.

Quote:

Notice how Nagin has become quite docile and conciliatory now that the situation has come under control?

Makes sense, given his speeches were about demanding some help from the feds to bring the situation under control.

splck · 09-07-2005, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

I didn't see Giuliani in front of a tv camera blaming Bush and the CIA for intelligence failures while the towers were collapsing.

That's because he's a republican ..no?

powerclown · 09-07-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splck

That's because he's a republican ..no?

Always with the politics!

hrandani · 09-07-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

Effective leadership is always a PR job isnt it?

Analog, the irony is apparently lost on you if you don't see what a farce sending your police force to Vegas is. These are public servants who have taken an oath to protect and serve the public. TO PROTECT AND SERVE THE PUBLIC. Not abdicate in the face of hardship. One of the cops who killed himself lost his wife in the flood. I appreciate the concept of stress management, but now is not the time.

You yourself said 'now that the situation is under control'.

Nobody works like they have been without beginning to feel the beginning stages of burnout. Emotional, physical, mental burnout. They aren't able to function after a period of time, some longer than others. You can't put standards on people you don't know. If you were in New Orleans leading by example I would give you credit, but forcing people when they can't go on is beyond stupidity.

vautrain · 09-07-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bparker805

This is NOT Bush's responsibilty. The tax payers were going to be the ones responsible for the repairs. I heard an amount of 20 billion to upgrade these levees... Now is it the federal government that is responsible for repairing the levees or does it come down to the state or local government to fix it? And if it does, did it come to a vote? Did tax payers decide that 20 billion was way too much? My guess is that if it did, people would have scoffed at ponying up 20 bill!

Are you saying that nothing funded with taxpayer money is Bush's responsibility? I don't remember seeing "Iraq war" on any ballot. How much have we spent on that?

The New Orleans levee projects have been federally funded for years and years, because the value of New Orleans to the national economy is well-established. Unfortunately, the levee projects have been federally underfunded for years and years, as well.

It's not Bush's fault, because the underfunding certainly did not begin with Bush. However, he did nothing to right that wrong, either. Pointing the finger at Bush is like pointing the finger at Nagin, in that regard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4216508.stm

When Hurricane Camille, a rare top Category Five storm, hit Mississippi in 1969, just missing New Orleans, the levees around the city were strengthened - but only enough to protect against a Category Three hurricane.

The gamble was taken that another Category Five would not threaten New Orleans anytime soon. This attitude prevailed among successive administrations.

Lt General Carl Strock, the Army Corps of Engineers commander, admitted that there was a collective mindset - that New Orleans would not be hit. Washington rolled the dice, he said.

After flooding in 1995, the existing system was improved. However, the sums were relatively small. About $500m was spent over the next 10 years.

From 2003 onwards, the Bush administration cut funds amid charges from the Army Corps of Engineers that the money was transferred to Iraq instead. The latest annual budget was cut from $36.5m to $10.4m.

A study to examine defences against a category Four or Five storm was proposed, at a cost of $4m. The Times-Picayune quoted the Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi as saying: "The Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies."

Now, are you going to fish, or are you going to bitch?

View Poll Results: Your opinion on the mayor's interview, and his candor...
He's being over the top, and it's warranted and maybe needed for what's happening. It's great.	37	35.58%
shrug for his approach, but his message is important, and his "realness" is important. I like it.	36	34.62%
I don't have an opinion / didn't stir me one way or the other.	6	5.77%
Regardless of the "realness", I think he needs to be a strong leader. I don't like it.	8	7.69%
His behavior was uncalled for, unprofessional, and isn't what his people need right now. I hate it.	17	16.35%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll

09-03-2005, 08:08 AM	#41 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	I think there is a national consensus that the federal response continues to be slow and confused. Bush is a very appealing target for this frustration -- it comes with the office -- but I reluctantly admit my belief that the problem reflects national attitudes towards our second class citizens (i.e. those not white, not wealthy). The ambivalence of this forum reflects this. I think it's a dodge to blame this on right-wing politicians. I sadly think the racism and classism is endemic to the population of the US in general, including Democrats who have fewer and fewer ties to the working poor of America. I'm a Democrat, and it pains me to say it, but it's hard to deny the failings we see in New Orleans. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

09-03-2005, 11:58 AM	#44 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I have mixed feelings about his outburst. I do appreciate how he manages to convey his frustration and anger for the people of his city. I wonder somewhat if there wasn't something that could have been done on his part prior to the hurricane. I heard predictions that it was going to hit their city before people were trapped there. Yet I am surprised that the people were bussed to a facility where no one had planned to provide food and water. It's a sad situation all around. Personally I have one question (not intended to threadjack) - Why would people choose to live in a city that has such a tenuous hold on land that they need multiple levees to hold back the ocean. I understand the necessity for some countries but here in the United States there are much cheaper places to live than in New Orleans and much safer places to live. Why do people do it? __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

09-04-2005, 07:46 AM	#49 (permalink)
Seer666 Oh dear God he breeded Location: Arizona	I don't know. While I like that interveiw, it nice to see someone who isn't a PC zombie, I still think this has been a cluster fuck from the neck up. Every level of goverment has dropped the ball on this one. NO should have been MUCH better prepaird for this. The city is BELOW SEA LEVEL FOR GODS SAKE! You can't tell me they just though everything would be honkey dorry forever and ever amen. Anyone with 2 brain cells in their head could see soemthing like this happening. As soon as weather cleared enough for helos to fly, they should have been dropping troops and food, mounting rescue missions, doing whatever the fuck they had to get them poeple out of there and keep things under controle. If the local goverment does have to autherise federal help, they should have picked up the phone as soon as the big bitch landed there and cleared whoever for whatever. Now it is just everyone trying to point fingers instead of doing anything. Even the Pres has less then impressed me with his reaction to this. In the press conference I saw he came of as so insencer about this whole mess, I wanted to choke him. And this from someone who admits freely they don't really give a shit about most other people. The thing that makes this so bad to me, is not only is in a national disater, but it's rapidly turned into a national embaressment. __________________ Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant. Last edited by Seer666; 09-05-2005 at 12:51 AM..

09-06-2005, 08:05 AM	#61 (permalink)
splck it's jam Location: Lowerainland BC	Comparing 911 to this is ridiculous. A couple of buildings Vs an entire city. Hardly the same I'd say. Giuliani would have come unglued (and rightfully so) if nobody showed up to help when the towers fell and his citizens were trapped for days on end. Again, comparing this disaster to 911 is complete bullshit. The way this disaster has been handled so far is totally unacceptable, but it sounds about right based on the amount of planning and cutbacks from all levels of government. __________________ nice line eh?

09-03-2005, 08:19 PM	#47 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Ask Cuba how they do it. 20,000 homes lost in the last hurricane to hit them and not a single loss of life.

09-06-2005, 06:36 AM	#60 (permalink)
vautrain Crazy	I don't see how trying to relieve his police force is an example of Nagin's incompetence. He's had two suicides already. What should he do, tell them to work harder?

09-06-2005, 08:19 AM	#62 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I really have a hard time understanding why ANYONE here is sticking up for this guy. I guess thats how incompetent people get elected in the first place. He did NOTHING to prepare his city, it goes to hell, and he comes unglued. What he needs is a slapping. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-06-2005, 11:41 AM	#64 (permalink)
Bodyhammer86 Insane Location: Mattoon, Il	Except nothing the Army Corps of Engineers could've done would have kept the levee system from collapsing, and besides that, the levees were made to protect the city from a category 3 hurricane, not a category 5 monster like Katrina. __________________ Pantera, Shadows Fall, Fear Factory, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Dimmu Borgir, Watch Them Die, Motorhead, Beyond the Embrace, Himsa, Black Label Society, Machine Head, In Flames, Soilwork, Dark Tranquility, Children of Bodom, Norther, Nightrage, At the Gates, God Forbid, Killswitch Engage, Lamb of God, All That Remains, Anthrax, Mudvayne, Arch Enemy, and Old Man's Child \m/

09-06-2005, 11:54 AM	#65 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	They were slated to be upgraded to withstand Category 5 but their funding got cut. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

09-07-2005, 02:07 AM	#71 (permalink)
analog Banned	Regarding the "sending police on vacation, and to las vegas" bit: They'd had 2 suicides, one being a high-profile spokesperson. They'd had 200+ officers leave from the stress. In addition to the police force are all the EMS workers. All those that stayed, worked about 20 hours a day, every day, seeing nothing but dead bodies- stranded, hungry, thirsty people they can't help- people roaming the city with guns, fires, countless wounded, sick, dying people, in endless streams. These people are traumatized by their experience. We give those in armed services our respect and reverence, and our help, from trauma disorders. I think what these people have been through, based on their usual tasks and job responsibilities, has been a nightmare of unimaginable proportions. There's only so much a person can take, even a professional, before the mind and the body start to wind down from stress, lack of sleep, and the relentless horror. Being critical of decisions in an orderly and well-articulated argument is one thing... ...being a crass, sarcastic jackass about police officers and other EMS workers being "sent on vacation" is a bit much. They're there to try and forget the hundreds, maybe thousands of people they've seen dead or dying, those they couldn't save, and the destruction of their own city, their own homes. As it is, most of these people risk their lives and push the limits of their human workload on a regular basis as it is, and they're not getting rich doing so. But on the whole, they are proud to do it. After what they've been through, you're going to shit on all of them by bitching about a 5-day rest? It did mention that counseling was part of it, btw, and most of them will need some form of it, even if it's second-hand from a friend, colleague, or maybe just a stranger and fellow victim. The military has taken over policing, and there are plenty of medical resources at their disposal. To this point, there is an article on cnn.com that had some NOLA official saying they had plenty of medical personnel, but only 10 boats, and that was slowing their rescues. They have the help they need. At some point, you have to rotate exhausted people out and let fresh people in to the core. Pretty much no one can carry on indefinitely.

09-07-2005, 09:17 AM	#73 (permalink)
byesman Crazy Location: Byesville	My father taught me a long time ago that "The reason people blame other people is that there's only one other option." I think everyone is in the wrong here, and I think heads need to roll. Unfortunately, they are starting the finger pointing and blaming a little to soon for me. It's been about 9-10 days and there are people who still need to be rescued. __________________ If after I depart this vale you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl. H.L. Mencken