I think there is a national consensus that the federal response continues to be slow and confused. Bush is a very appealing target for this frustration -- it comes with the office -- but I reluctantly admit my belief that the problem reflects national attitudes towards our second class citizens (i.e. those not white, not wealthy). The ambivalence of this forum reflects this.

I think it's a dodge to blame this on right-wing politicians. I sadly think the racism and classism is endemic to the population of the US in general, including Democrats who have fewer and fewer ties to the working poor of America. I'm a Democrat, and it pains me to say it, but it's hard to deny the failings we see in New Orleans.

After reading <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090102413.html">this article in the Washington Post</a>, my opinion of the guy has changed a lot.

Works out Ray Nagin is a first-time mayor, a political newcomer. He was an executive with Cox Communications, born and raised in New Orleans. He was elected in 2002 on a promise to clean up corruption.

This guy has inherited this disaster from his forbears. I want him speaking for his people--which is what he was doing on that radio interview. He's got no political agenda or grooming, he's just got the work there is in front of him.

Here's the article:

Baa-Zing

That one stings a bit. I like this guy, especially after the article ratbastid posted.

I have mixed feelings about his outburst. I do appreciate how he manages to convey his frustration and anger for the people of his city. I wonder somewhat if there wasn't something that could have been done on his part prior to the hurricane. I heard predictions that it was going to hit their city before people were trapped there. Yet I am surprised that the people were bussed to a facility where no one had planned to provide food and water. It's a sad situation all around.

Personally I have one question (not intended to threadjack) - Why would people choose to live in a city that has such a tenuous hold on land that they need multiple levees to hold back the ocean. I understand the necessity for some countries but here in the United States there are much cheaper places to live than in New Orleans and much safer places to live. Why do people do it?

It is sort of hard for us flatlanders to grasp, isn't it? I can't really explain it either, except to say that most of NO was financially incapable of getting themselves out. That and, if you've ever visited the city, it has certain charms that would tend to offset the risks.

Besides, it had always been below sea level, and it had never been a serious problem before right?

And the Dutch? At the heights of the Dutch Empire, they had huge flood problems and yet, they were still able to survive as a empire that colonized some islands in Americas, the Indies, etc. Why would the dutch people still live in a flatland that often had flooding problem that amount up to more sevre than New Orleans?

I suppose the better question would be this, How did the Dutch learn to survive?

Ask Cuba how they do it. 20,000 homes lost in the last hurricane to hit them and not a single loss of life.

Yes it appears he would do whatever he had to to get people off their asses and help. But what isn't being talked about is how he caught grief from the citizens of New Orleans for the inept way he has handled matters prior to Katrina, and the majority of that grief came from members of the black community. But when the caucasion members criticised him, people made comments about race being their motivation for their criticism. What's that? BS is what it is. Yes he's emotional because he is an idiot and he screwed up....and now he does like so many others do when they screw up.....rant and rave, and then point the finger at someone else. As long as the spotlight is off him and on Bush, then he doesn't come across as the dumbass that he is. I will give the Mayor this though... I don't think it was a planned attack on Bush to save face... Why? Because he's not that smart. It was just a gut reaction to what was going on. Too bad he didn't have a gut reaction to the news that Hurricane Katrina was headed towards New Orleans. He's frustrated? What about the people swimming in filth, going without food and water, etc? Texans have done more for the residents of New Orleans than the Mayor did himself...and as of CNN's report this morning (7am 9/4/05) we have provided refuge for over 220,000 so far, and that number is still growing. The groundwork for all that is going on could have been planned for, and laid out months and years before it happened, yet it wasn't. But people saw that interview and they say, "What Guts!", and "I wish MY elected officials were more like him". No they don't.

This racial spin that is starting to heat up is really sickening to watch. The Mayor is black, yet he failed the citizens of New Orleans that needed him most, the poor, the elderly, the children, and the many thousands who did NOT have the means to evacuate even if they wanted to. Now the media and many prominent people in the black community are trying to say race was was the reason relief was so slow in coming. That's not just crazy, but ignorant. What about all those buses (school) buses camptured on film that were flooded, parked. The Mayor supposedly represents ALL the citizens, yet he barely managed the task of ordering an evacuation. He should have mobilized every Transit Bus, every school bus, and any other buses in the city in a massive effort to move those that could not move themselves out of harms way. What was the Mayor thinking? Were all these folks gonna just snap their fingers and everything was gonna be alright?

The facts will all come out afterwards, but it isn't helping matters when morons like Kanye West go on TV (Red Cross Telethon) and make ignorant statements like "George Bush doesn't care about Black people", etc... What about the Mayor of New Orleans? He's black...is he racist? That's BS and everybody knows it. Kanye West too shooses to shoot off his mouth, when in fact could have been doing something as well before hand, but instead he chose to flash his money, stroke his ego, and party with the MTV crowd when he could have been trying to connect with the very people he says are being ignored.

As for the looting going on in New Orleans.... It's illegal, but because of the magnitude of the situation, I can see where looking the other way is appropriate when it is food, water, clothing, or other NECESSITIES being stolen. Until relief arrived... It is arriving now, so people aren't gonan be looking the other way for much longer. But, what about all the electronics, jewelry, etc that has been SEEN being looted from business in New Orleans? Who in the hell is gonna benefit from a TV when there is no electricity? Jewelry, etc.... What good is that stuff? Well it's worth money after all this is over, that's what...and that's the reason they're stealing that stuff. These are greedy thieves and thugs capitalizing on the misfortunes of others, and it is wrong, wrong, wrong!

The failures in the relief effort from the Federal Gov't need to be identified, and the responsible people held responsible. Another issue is why wasn't more money allocated to prevent the failure of the levies PRIOR to Katrina.... WHy in this country does it take a catastrophy to wake people up? But, this is NOT a black and white issue. The focus needs to be on helping these people, and not making a damn racial issue out of it. I am so sick of people pulling out that 'ol race card whenever it is convenient for them. Its just damn ignorant! :mad: :mad:

I realize some of this post is off topic, but more or less went along with what is going on with the mayor.....it's all a terrible tragedy.

I don't know. While I like that interveiw, it nice to see someone who isn't a PC zombie, I still think this has been a cluster fuck from the neck up. Every level of goverment has dropped the ball on this one. NO should have been MUCH better prepaird for this. The city is BELOW SEA LEVEL FOR GODS SAKE! You can't tell me they just though everything would be honkey dorry forever and ever amen. Anyone with 2 brain cells in their head could see soemthing like this happening. As soon as weather cleared enough for helos to fly, they should have been dropping troops and food, mounting rescue missions, doing whatever the fuck they had to get them poeple out of there and keep things under controle. If the local goverment does have to autherise federal help, they should have picked up the phone as soon as the big bitch landed there and cleared whoever for whatever. Now it is just everyone trying to point fingers instead of doing anything. Even the Pres has less then impressed me with his reaction to this. In the press conference I saw he came of as so insencer about this whole mess, I wanted to choke him. And this from someone who admits freely they don't really give a shit about most other people. The thing that makes this so bad to me, is not only is in a national disater, but it's rapidly turned into a national embaressment.

Actually, your scenario is rather unworkable, given the resources needed and the time available. In order to evacuate 100,000 people by bus, the mayor would have needed:

1700 buses
1700 bus drivers
1700 police
70,000 gallons of diesel

The time needed is open to debate, but I think he would have needed three days at a minimum, probably four days.

The fact is, he had fewer than 48 hours. There were about 36-40 hours remaining, when everyone began to realize New Orleans would likely be hit by a Cat 4 or stronger storm. I think the mayor could have evacuated up to 20,000 in that time frame, but it would have been at the expense of the other people trying to evacuate on their own, and it would have been at the expense of the remaining 80,000 to 90,000 who could or would not evacuate on their own.

Given the time frame, no one could have evacuated 100,000 people.

The fact is every person that would have made it out of there would have been an improvement over the way things actually transpired. It is also fact that the man NEVER EVEN MADE AN ETTEMPT to get anybody out who wasn't able to get out on their own. And, to add insult to injury, THERE WASN'T EVEN ANY CONTINGENCY PLAN to do so either!

I take issue with the amount of time the man had, and the amount of resource he had available but like you say it is, and will be open for debate for a long time to come.


I had no real scenario to speak of. I was merely pointing out that he could have done something, and gotten thousands out had he wanted to do so. I realize that not everyone would have left even if they had been afforded the opportunity. But You and I, as well as everybody else knows that there could have been lives saved, countless lives that DID NOT have to end because of his failure to act. The man DIDN'T HAVE THE BALLS or INTELLIGENCE to do any more than he did...and that amounted to nothing. Yet, once the shit hit the fan, what does Mayor Ray Nagin do? He blows up, and then points the finger at others for THEIR slow response. Well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

Put away your calculator for a minute and just look over the 3-4 days prior to the hurricane hitting land, and then 5-6 days afterwards.... What was the Mayor doing? Saving his own ass. :confused:

3-4 days prior to the hurricane? You think you can just evacuate the entire city every time a hurricane shows up in the gulf? You obviously don't live anywhere near the gulf. This storm was a 200-300 year storm, but hurricanes show up in the gulf all the time. Even hurricanes that look like they're headed straight for New Orleans are not rare.

Certainly, there were failures preparing and responding to this disaster at all levels of government, but to assign blame to the mayor (or anyone else) for not getting everyone out of the city prior to this hurricane is simply uninformed.

Like I said, I think it's possible he could have evacuated 10,000 to 20,000 out of the city. This would have been a fraction of the people who might have been willing to leave (who do you choose to stay and go?). It also would have been at the expense of the people who could not have left.

You bet... By the time Katrina was hitting Florida, a projected path showed New Orleans as the most likely target. The ball should have been started rolling, but instead it was dropped....better yet it wasn't even picked up. You sure can't evacuate an entire city every time a Hurricane shows up in the gulf. Obviously I don't live anywhere near the gulf? Well I would say so... I live just north of Houston in Huntsville. How close would you like me to be? How many evacuations have you worked? I happen to work for the transportation dept of my states prison system, and I have evacuated prisons in the Beaumont area.....when winds and rain were blowing so hard I could barely see the bus in front of me, and almost knocking our buses over in the process. I can remember driving for 36-45 hours straight without a break trying to get the job done, along with my co-workers and other drivers. I can remember having an officer from the unit we were evacuating ride along with me in the fornt of the bus, and me saying to him..."Just talk to me, talk to me about anything so I don't fall asleep", while we made trip after trip back and forth until all were evacuated. And just this past July When Emily threatened the Brownsville area, where were you? I can tell you where I was. The Saturday prior I rolled into Beeville with an approximate 80 bus convoy from all over the state. Sunday we rolled out to Lopez State Jail, Segovia Transfer, and Willacy County Jail. We ended up not evacuating anybody, but we have a contingency plan, and we were prepared...that's my big point. We were ready, and we made an effort...and I am just talking about convicts. My role was just a small part of a bigger plan to get everyone involved to safe haven.

I have also personally talked to some survivors here in Huntsville, yes that's right....here in Huntsville we have over 1,000 from New Orleans, Mississippi, and Alabama. I worked at a shelter passing out supplies, and talking to (mainly listening to) people tell their stories. One thing I heard over and over was how the mayor and the rest of the city turned their backs on them. Many wanted to go but couldn't.....and I also talked to some that did not want to go, but had to later on due to flooding.

Don't go making assumptions about people,...you know what assuming does, don't you?

I have not once stated the Mayor of NO should have, or even could have gotten everyone out of NW before Katrina hit. It's idiotic to even think he could have acomplished that. Even IF everyone could have been offered a ride out, many would not have taken it. That's fact. However, a good portion could have been evacuated had resources been utilized in and around new Orleans alone... I have done it myself. I have hauled people out of danger before it arrived. What he and his city council COULD have had was a contingency plan IN PLACE for such things. You say Katrina was a 200-300 year storm, but it wouldn't take hurricane to flood the bowl that we call New Orleans to the point that folks would have to get out. Do you remember Tropical Storm Allison, and what it did to Houston? I had personal dealings with THAT ONE as well. The city of Houston, the same city who is taking in more evacuees than any other single city in the US, had a contingency plan....they put it into place, and it saved lives.

People are taking the time to blast the federal government, and yes there were failures at every level of government....but it starts at home, at the lowest level of government and that means the city council and mayor of New Orleans, as well as the other cities affected. The Mayor of New Orleans, as well as members of the city council failed the citizens of New Orleans. Period.




This also would have been a fraction of people to survive as well, rather than die from the hurricane or the flooding afterwards. If NO had a plan and executed it, we could look back and critique what they did.... but they didn't do ANYTHING. Don't you get it? Anything would have been better than nothing.... 1 - 1 single life saved would have been worth the effort. He could have started with the sick and elderly.... Haven't you heard the reports comign from the hospitals that lost lives because they couldn't come up with basic necessities..ie; running water, electricity, etc... Just evacuating the sick and elderly would have gone a long ways. But for many being sick and/or elderly was their death sentence.


BTW.... Where do you live? If YOU lived near the Gulf region you would know that Hurricane season is a big deal every year, and every city should have some sort of contingency plan in case of a hurricane. And, if you were familiar with the area you would know that it doesn't take a hurricane to cause the massive devastation and loss of life we are seeing.... a good tropical storm stalling off the coast like Allison did will do quite a bit of damage on it's own.

I don't believe that's the case. New Orleans was a long shot when Katrina was hitting Florida.

I apologize for the assumption. I don't live in the area, but I have plenty of family who live in Houston, and as far south as the gulf coast. My sister lived in New Orleans until this time last week. Family members in Texas are now housing my sister, as well as several friends from New Orleans.

The final chapter has yet to be written, but my contention is the mayor could have evacuated some people, only at the expense of the ones who remained. In other words, police and other resources would have been devoted to the evacuation process (and many would have had to leave with the evacuees) and the remaining people would have been left with nothing- probably not even the shelter of the Superdome.

Well, maybe if the Army Corps of Engineers levee projects hadn't been underfunded over the past thirty years, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I wouldn't say they didn't do anything. Whether their plan was adequate, I don't know. I do know there was no way given the timeline and resources, as I understand them, to evacuate even half the people that needed to be evacuated. Obviously, the best case scenario would have been to evacuate 500,000 residents in 24 hours, and to have had Cat5-resistant levees. But, that didn't happen.

Hospital evacuations are tricky. It's not even as simple as loading everyone on buses. Many or most patients need to be evacuated by ambulance, and many other patients need to be airlifted out. I have a close family member involved in emergency planning at a major hospital here, it's not an easy thing to do.

Yes.... Finally on one thing we agree... The levy system has been underfunded for years and years. Had the levee system held, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But, I maintain that those in NO knew better than anybody else, and really should have been better prepared. I bet when they rebuild, they'll be better prepared fro now on.

I also know that yes indeed, according to NOAA weather, when Katrina was hitting Florida the projected path did show it hitting somewhere between Biloxi and New Orleans. I hate this time of year mainly because I am on call so much...because of hurricanes. TDCJ has units in low lying areas, ie; Brownsville area, and also Beaumont...and my whole dept is on edge anticipating an evacuation trip. I received a teletype with the projected path being what I stated, and I got it from work.


Oh well... nothing to do now but watch it all unfold...

It appears that on 8/26, a day after Katrina hit Florida, NOAA figured there was a 10% chance of a hit on New Orleans. Also, it wasn't until 8/27 that Katrina was upgraded to Cat3, and it wasn't upgraded to Cat4 until 8/28.

I don't think you can evacuate on a 10% chance. If you evacuated a city the size of New Orleans, and were wrong 9 out of 10 times, you'd be strung up by your toes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrica...na#Predictions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ricane_Katrina

I'm involving myself in some fundraising projects right now (I just raised $100 a few minutes before I posted this) , and I'm looking for charities that will specifically target child victims of Katrina. I'm sure you're doing your part, also, and I thank you for that.

I totally agree, government at all levels will learn from this tragedy- we can only hope- and next time they can be better prepared to both protect the city and get the heck out of there.

We never saw any percentages.....we were just given a teletype showing a graphic of a cone and the most probable area the eye would hit somewhere just west of New Orleans extending all the way up to just east of Biloxi,MS. It mentioned that Katrina at that time was a Cat1, and she was expected to gain considerable strength once reaching the warmer waters of the gulf of mexico. Anyway..... I agree to disagree with you at this point. I maintain my position, and I am sure you do as well... Like I stated previously, all we can do is watch it all unfold. I spent a little time tonight helping out at the Red Cross shelter set up at 1st Baptist church here in Huntsville. I also found out that I might have some neighbors soon, and those being evacuees. It's a small world....

2 wise men speaketh.
Nagin is no Giuliani, thats for sure.

And whats he going to do to celebrate the worst natural disaster in the history of the country?
Why, send his crew to Vegas, of course!...PARTY TIME!!!

Contrast this to what the NYC police and firefighters did after 9-1-1. (Answer: Got busy.)

After draining all the water, the second step to rebuilding NOLA should be to hire another mayor.

Hire another mayor eh? I didn't know democracy has gotten so bad in the USA that people can no longer vote for a new mayor...

/end sarcasm

I don't see how trying to relieve his police force is an example of Nagin's incompetence. He's had two suicides already. What should he do, tell them to work harder?

Comparing 911 to this is ridiculous. A couple of buildings Vs an entire city. Hardly the same I'd say. Giuliani would have come unglued (and rightfully so) if nobody showed up to help when the towers fell and his citizens were trapped for days on end. Again, comparing this disaster to 911 is complete bullshit.

The way this disaster has been handled so far is totally unacceptable, but it sounds about right based on the amount of planning and cutbacks from all levels of government.

I really have a hard time understanding why ANYONE here is sticking up for this guy.

I guess thats how incompetent people get elected in the first place. He did NOTHING to prepare his city, it goes to hell, and he comes unglued. What he needs is a slapping.

OK, if you want to fingerpoint, Bush did NOTHING to fix and build up the levee system that had been in a state of disrepair for years, and both state and local officials AND the Army Corps of Engineers had been warning the feds about it for a long time.

I'm reminded of a Boudreaux joke, the punch line of which goes something like this- Are you gonna fish, or are you gonna bitch?

Except nothing the Army Corps of Engineers could've done would have kept the levee system from collapsing, and besides that, the levees were made to protect the city from a category 3 hurricane, not a category 5 monster like Katrina.

They were slated to be upgraded to withstand Category 5 but their funding got cut.

Put it this way: In New York, Giuliani had about 30 seconds advance notice of a disaster, and reacted calmly and effectively. In New Orleans, Nagin watched a disaster unfold over a period of many days, and panicked. To me, this sheds much light on the type of leader each one is/isn't.

YES! Think of all the displaced citizens of New orleans...Where is their all expense paid trip to Vegas?

It's tough all over....and it is a sad day when the cops are taking time out to vacation in Vegas, at their wonderful mayor's offering, while the rest of the city swims in shit. Not to mention all the federal troops and aid workers now in the city working to locate citizens, find the dead, and basically assess the loss of life at this point, and pump out the water....and you send your first line of defense for the citizens and the city itself...on vacation... Insane...

Nice Touch Mayor Nagin!! Bravo!! :thumbsup:

I don't think he's sending all of them at once, that's for sure. I think he's trying to keep them from killing themselves, more than already have, anyway. If you have two employees kill themselves, you don't tell the rest of them to work harder. You figure out what's going on, and you try to give them what they need in order to keep going.

Almost a year and a half after 9/11, nearly 10% of the emergency workers at the WTC site were deemed suicidal enough to be referred to mental health professionals for evaluation and counseling. Many of the NO police have lost their homes, friends, even family.

Precisely. The Army Corps of Engineers had even contemplated a sea wall project. I don't know what the status of that was, but if they could barely get funding to maintain the cat 3 levees, there was no way they were going to get funding for a sea wall.

It's been going on for years and years.

Yes it has.....many years in fact. I won't hold my breath, but what do you want to bet they get their funding now?

Regarding the "sending police on vacation, and to las vegas" bit:

They'd had 2 suicides, one being a high-profile spokesperson. They'd had 200+ officers leave from the stress. In addition to the police force are all the EMS workers. All those that stayed, worked about 20 hours a day, every day, seeing nothing but dead bodies- stranded, hungry, thirsty people they can't help- people roaming the city with guns, fires, countless wounded, sick, dying people, in endless streams. These people are traumatized by their experience. We give those in armed services our respect and reverence, and our help, from trauma disorders. I think what these people have been through, based on their usual tasks and job responsibilities, has been a nightmare of unimaginable proportions. There's only so much a person can take, even a professional, before the mind and the body start to wind down from stress, lack of sleep, and the relentless horror.

Being critical of decisions in an orderly and well-articulated argument is one thing...

...being a crass, sarcastic jackass about police officers and other EMS workers being "sent on vacation" is a bit much.

They're there to try and forget the hundreds, maybe thousands of people they've seen dead or dying, those they couldn't save, and the destruction of their own city, their own homes. As it is, most of these people risk their lives and push the limits of their human workload on a regular basis as it is, and they're not getting rich doing so. But on the whole, they are proud to do it. After what they've been through, you're going to shit on all of them by bitching about a 5-day rest? It did mention that counseling was part of it, btw, and most of them will need some form of it, even if it's second-hand from a friend, colleague, or maybe just a stranger and fellow victim.

The military has taken over policing, and there are plenty of medical resources at their disposal. To this point, there is an article on cnn.com that had some NOLA official saying they had plenty of medical personnel, but only 10 boats, and that was slowing their rescues. They have the help they need. At some point, you have to rotate exhausted people out and let fresh people in to the core. Pretty much no one can carry on indefinitely.

Giuliani didn't have much to do that was critical or that would have made the difference between life and death, his was mostly a PR job. Aterwards there were few injured and hardly any dead bodies to deal with (comparatively), and except for a small part of downtown the city, albeit in shock, was still operational, and able to support the displaced. Nagin has lost all his infrastructure and is seeing people die every day while the federal government sat on its ass for days, and is keeping his resolve admirably. He shares part of the responsibility for the lack of preparation (though most of it seems to be FEMA's), but he has been very impressive since then, given what he has to work with.

My father taught me a long time ago that "The reason people blame other people is that there's only one other option." I think everyone is in the wrong here, and I think heads need to roll. Unfortunately, they are starting the finger pointing and blaming a little to soon for me. It's been about 9-10 days and there are people who still need to be rescued.

This is NOT Bush's responsibilty. The tax payers were going to be the ones responsible for the repairs. I heard an amount of 20 billion to upgrade these levees... Now is it the federal government that is responsible for repairing the levees or does it come down to the state or local government to fix it? And if it does, did it come to a vote? Did tax payers decide that 20 billion was way too much? My guess is that if it did, people would have scoffed at ponying up 20 bill!

Effective leadership is always a PR job isnt it?

I'm not arguing the particulars of each disaster...I'm criticizing the reactions of the respective leaders. I also think you're short-changing Giuliani's organizational skills in handling the crisis during and after it happened. I didn't see Giuliani in front of a tv camera blaming Bush and the CIA for intelligence failures while the towers were collapsing. Or blaming anyone else for that matter. Notice how Nagin has become quite docile and conciliatory now that the situation has come under control? Like Ustwo said, I can't understand why anyone would stick up for this guy.

analog, the irony is apparently lost on you if you don't see what a farce sending your police force to Vegas is. These are public servants who have taken an oath to protect and serve the public. TO PROTECT AND SERVE THE PUBLIC. Not abdicate in the face of hardship. One of the cops who killed himself lost his wife in the flood. I appreciate the concept of stress management, but now is not the time.

That's because he was standing next to him pledging support.

Makes sense, given his speeches were about demanding some help from the feds to bring the situation under control.

That's because he's a republican ..no? ;)

Always with the politics! :p

You yourself said 'now that the situation is under control'.

Nobody works like they have been without beginning to feel the beginning stages of burnout. Emotional, physical, mental burnout. They aren't able to function after a period of time, some longer than others. You can't put standards on people you don't know. If you were in New Orleans leading by example I would give you credit, but forcing people when they can't go on is beyond stupidity.

Are you saying that nothing funded with taxpayer money is Bush's responsibility? I don't remember seeing "Iraq war" on any ballot. How much have we spent on that?

The New Orleans levee projects have been federally funded for years and years, because the value of New Orleans to the national economy is well-established. Unfortunately, the levee projects have been federally underfunded for years and years, as well.

It's not Bush's fault, because the underfunding certainly did not begin with Bush. However, he did nothing to right that wrong, either. Pointing the finger at Bush is like pointing the finger at Nagin, in that regard.

Now, are you going to fish, or are you going to bitch?