Is the TFP full of meanies? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

analog · 08-31-2005, 12:27 PM

My sincere apologies to zen_tom... this was originally his thread, but I was trying to fix something with the post order and somehow accidentally deleted it. Oops! lol So anyway, here is the original post... and when zen_tom posts in this thread, i'll fix it back like I never messed it up.

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In the last few days I have seen threads starting up about immigrants, foreign aid, welfare, even rescuing people trapped in New Orleans, calling for us to withdraw our assistance for one reason or another.

I have to say, that every time I read about someone indignantly complaining about how their taxes are supporting someone or other, and how unfair it is because
a) they had plenty of time to evacuate
b) they are foreigners
c) they might be criminals
d) they are probably on drugs
e) they should have thought about that before they lived on a floodplain
f) they have too many children and on and on and on
- I just can't help feeling how mean spirited these people are.

Has anyone wondered exactly what proportion of their hard earned tax actually goes towards each of these people? Personally, as an individual, what have they lost - a few cents?

Yes, state dependance is ugly and can be an outcome of offering help to those less fortunate - but even so, on the whole isn't it still worth those few extra cents?

Yes there are those of us who have worked our way out of debt and trouble by doing things the hard way. Congratulations to all of us; but if all that hard work has made so bitter as to begrudge others the assistance they might need, then perhaps in actual fact, it is us who needs the help, not the other way around.

Astrocloud · 08-31-2005, 12:31 PM

Tfp is filled with both meanies and non-meanies... None of the above would be a great alternate choice.

08-31-2005, 12:32 PM

oops - analog, It was my post initially - stevo just managed to post inbetween me posting the initial pre-ramble, and the actual poll...

Just to clarify, I don't want to see people being rewarded for being lazy - but I do think that on the whole, more good is done than harm. Yes people abuse the system, but, what other system should we use?
And if we decide to be stricter and impose tougher regulation, there comes a point when the cost of imposing the controls becomes greater than the cost of supporting a few layabouts.

The way I see it, if you are happy to accept handouts for the rest of your life, you're never going to live a rich and rewarding life - it's in everyone's own interests to work for themselves and be self sufficient. But I just don't care if there are going to be some saddos who are not beneath living like a parasite - that's their problem, not mine.

Sure, it's my money that is supporting them, but I'd rather support a few lowlifes and see a safety net for regular joes like you and I, than scrapping the whole system and hoping for the best.

BigBen · 08-31-2005, 12:33 PM

I voted tree hugging love fest, because although I don't agree with everyone here about everything, I know that people VALUE my opinion and give it the respect that they would an aquaintance. (and a damned handsome and modest one at that...)

Where else in this vast festering pit of nothingness are you going to find the thoughts and feelings of people who are litening to each other, and truly communicating?

I hate boards that tell me to shut up because I am new to the community, like you need a fucking pedigree to get your opinion heard, or other boards that are so focused on one topic you immediately get flamed if you ask someone what the weather is like in their part of the world.

nastybiunzXXX: STFU, OMG, dont u know that u r supposed to talk about the supr suxxorz?
BigBen: Uh, yeah, okay. I think I'll be going now.

maleficent · 08-31-2005, 12:37 PM

Dang - I like what I wrote before... :0

I dont remember what I wrote... but

If expecting someone to be personally responsible for their actions -- for instance - if a person already has 6 children and having a tough time making ends meet, that 7th child, isn't the wisest idea and perhaps the person thinking thru their decisions and acting accordingly.

I'm a pretty hardcore conservative and don't see a lot of need in the government looking after people who choose to not look after themselves, there are charities where people can decide ont heir own whether or not to support those in need.

If expecting people to act responsibly, and think thru decisions is being a meanie - then it's a title I wear proudly - though I much prefere Meanass thank you very much

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maleficent, in the first version of this thread

If expecting people to take responsibility for their own actions makes me a meanie - then I'm a meanie and damn proud of it.

If a person has 6 children that they are already struggling to support, is it really in their best interest to pop out a 7th or 8th child? Unless you are planning on selling this child, you have to support it now, 7 do not eat as cheaply as 6... Common sense.

I'm a pretty hard core conservative when it comes to the mindset of the government taking care of me.. They don't need to - I can do it myself, and if i can't -then there are charities to do it for me...

ShaniFaye · 08-31-2005, 12:42 PM

count me among the mean spirited then....Im WELL aware there are people who actually need assistance....those people I have no problem helping. But when Im standing in line behind some woman with 6 kids all stair step in age using her WIC card to buy groceries it pisses me off to no end.

They system needs to change.....do you know that, at least here anyway, WIC does not condiser toilet paper a necessity?

lurkette · 08-31-2005, 12:52 PM

Tree-hugging hippie, here. The majority of people don't abuse the system, and one or two anecdotal instances is not a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not overly fond of people having families they can't afford, but until they implement mandatory Depo until people can pass parenting tests and prove they can afford children, we're going to have to realize that other people's choices are not always the ones we might make, and do the best we can to get along and not punish children for their parents' stupidity.

maleficent · 08-31-2005, 12:59 PM

The children are already being punished by being the spawn of these idiots...

I accept that people will be stupid, I don't expect that the government should have to pay for their stupidity (the government has enough of their own stupidity to pay for) Charities are in place for a reason, and people willingly give to them...

StanT · 08-31-2005, 01:04 PM

I'm sure I was much more eloquent the first time around.

I think people ought to be responsible for the consequences of their decisions. I think that charity ought to be voluntary. If either of those make me a meanie, I can learn to live with it.

JustJess · 08-31-2005, 01:09 PM

I don't think we're a bunch of meanies (but that's what I voted, because it made me giggle). But I think it's pretty easy for all of us to criticize what we don't understand, since most of us have not lived in the life of any one who needed this help. As for those who take advantage, they piss me off too! But I know what's okay in my world may not be for theirs. Again, in the scheme of things... who gives a rat's ass? I have more important things to worry about! Like cheese, dammit!

ShaniFaye · 08-31-2005, 01:11 PM

cheese is on the WIC list JJ!!!

i know around here...WIC vouchers can and are used to trade for crack (i've seen it first hand)

JustJess · 08-31-2005, 01:23 PM

That's why I think we should reform, not refuse.
I am not a liberal, I am not a conservative (by any stretch), I just want people to make decisions that are the best for our society and economy as a whole. Does that mean a little more tough love on PA programs? You betcha. Does that mean we will need to keep a PA program because it's hard to do anything but be poor when you're poor? Hell yes.

mackyroo · 08-31-2005, 01:28 PM

I browse a lot of forums and the TFP Community is the most mature and intellectually stimulating I have encountered yet.

On the topic of state help such as WIC, I don't like to see people abusing the system, but I also know firsthand that these things are used by people who do need them. While there are problems with the system, some alternatives would be worse to endure.

pattycakes · 08-31-2005, 02:09 PM

i may have come off as a meanie in my most recent post, but havent you ever had one thing that pisses you off to no end? I know i have and i posted what i felt at that exact moment so other people could see what i think and i guess argue with me their points. because if their points outweigh mine i might just change me whole outlook... or try to see it better from their side

Psycho Dad · 08-31-2005, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJess

That's why I think we should reform, not refuse.
I am not a liberal, I am not a conservative (by any stretch), I just want people to make decisions that are the best for our society and economy as a whole. Does that mean a little more tough love on PA programs? You betcha. Does that mean we will need to keep a PA program because it's hard to do anything but be poor when you're poor? Hell yes.

That pretty much sums up what I think most of the people who have had problems with public assistance have been trying to communicate in these threads. I don’t recall anyone really saying “fuck the widow with the mortgage and toddlers”. Most people I think just want to see those that accept public assistance truly need it, not abuse it and get off of it when they no longer need it.

And include me in thinking that there needs to be a “none of the above” choice for the poll. I see the TFP as having people usually both for and against both sides of a discussion. These discussions would suck were everyone to have the same views on everything.

World's King · 08-31-2005, 03:20 PM

What a bunch of assholes.

meembo · 08-31-2005, 03:33 PM

Experience seems to mellow everyone here, IMO. The oldest posters with children and experience and many adult years behind them seem to be the sages, while the posters lacking the above seem in general to be the most brash and individualistic (sometimes narcissistic). It's easy to be judgemental of what you (rightly or wrongly) don't know.

filtherton · 08-31-2005, 03:33 PM

I voted for yep, but i was being sarcastic. Does that make me a meany?

Grasshopper Green · 08-31-2005, 03:45 PM

I don't consider myself a meanie, but perhaps I have conveyed that here. I did express cynicism towards the PA system, although I am not for scrapping the whole thing. I don't mind helping those who need it. And I am feeling very sympathetic towards the hurricane victims; we as humans have been living near the ocean for thousands of years because of fishing, transport, etc. Although we may no longer need the same things we did years ago, it's unreasonable to just dump those cities just because they are near the water. If people quit living where there are natural disasters, we'd all have to relocate to the moon.

Anyway, I had to vote I don't give a rats ass because my option wasn't listed. I don't think that people here are mean spirited just to be mean, but some people have differing opinions that others may not like and are extremely opposed to.

Nimetic · 08-31-2005, 03:50 PM

Sometimes it's cheaper to pay for a little more welfare and education than it is to pay for increased police, jails, private security and house insurance.

That's my view of the world anyways...

BigBen · 08-31-2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimetic

Sometimes it's cheaper to pay for a little more welfare and education than it is to pay for increased police, jails, private security and house insurance.

That's my view of the world anyways...

Amen. I share this view wholeheartedly.

Pareto optimum, at all costs...

Seer666 · 09-01-2005, 03:50 PM

I am a meanie. I think if people do stupid things, then fuck the, the get what they get. I do not feel the need to go out and feed the homelss and hug the retarded. I think stupidity should be a capitol offense, and I that we should have Meth Head season right after Deer season. I also have a extream soft spot for the people that have shown they are worth being close to. For my friends, I will do anything to anyone to make sure they are safe and hav what they need. rest of the world can burn. As meanie, I can say there are a lot of meanies here. There are also a lot of softies, and a lot of people in the middle. That is why I like this place. Many people, many views, and most of them well thought out. And the ones that aren't well thought out at least tend to be entertaining, so I can live with them to....

09-01-2005, 04:43 PM

I'm glad to see a balance here - I personally veer between being a softie and not giving a rat's ass. I know there's a huge spectrum of difference between being refused assistance because you didn't believe a government warning (in the case of NO) and abusing the welfare system - but I do think people reap what they sow - so whether it's someone buying lobster with their welfare stamps or someone who happened to live in the path of a devastating force of nature - I like to think I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, because everyone has to deal with their own conscience in the end.

I think there is a difference between feeling (rightfully) annoyed at someone who is abusing the system (because it shows a 'fuck you' attitude and general lack of respect for your fellow citizens) and someone who could do with a helping hand. I do think everyone has a conscience, and that ignoring it or denying it leads to all kinds of unhappiness.

Aladdin Sane · 09-01-2005, 05:17 PM

Yeah, I'm most definately a meanie.
I actually expect people to be responsible for themselves and their families. I think people who refuse to work should not eat. Criminals should be locked up. Killers should be killed. And the government should stay the hell outta my business as long as I obey the law.
I'm one mean son-of-a-bitch.

Psycho Dad · 09-01-2005, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane

Yeah, I'm most definately a meanie.
I actually expect people to be responsible for themselves and their families. I think people who refuse to work should not eat. Criminals should be locked up. Killers should be killed. And the government should stay the hell outta my business as long as I obey the law.

Oh hell. I thought I was just an average Joe. Turns out I'm a meanie.

pan6467 · 09-01-2005, 05:36 PM

This is a microcosm of the real world I think..... there are truly great caring people here, there are assholes who seemingly care only about themselves, the well informed and the happily uninformed, the right, the left and everyone in the middle are all represented very well in TFP.

I could name names.... but that would be unfair..... overall this is a great place and if you cannot locate a friend or 2 .... if you can't find the courage to IM people and say "great post" or just send them a nice word...... well then you have the same courage as I do.... lol.....

Seriously, there are many here I truly like and could probably call a friend.... and some I would avoid.

I am truly happy I found this place and I know some people.... here have truly helped me cope with some issues that I could get off my chest in a way I couldn't elsewhere.

And there are those assholes that get great enjoyment out of others pain.....

There are those here that care but will never find courage to tell me.

And there are those here that don't have a clue as to who I am and seriously just don't care..... go figure.....

Amazingly just like the real world.

So, no we're not meanies here and we're not hippies..... we are people, struggling through our lives each of us trying to find some form of happiness and sense of belonging..... and in all honesty...... TFP gives me a slice of that.

pan6467 · 09-01-2005, 05:50 PM

PS: Threadjack...... For PsychoDad, the poster above me...........

"Who's that... Who's the man with the itchy gun. Who's the man who kills for fun! Psycho dad. Psycho dad. Psycho dad! He sleeps with a gun, but he loves his son. Killed his wife 'cause she weighed a ton... Psycho Dad!"

Thank you AL BUNDY God of all us mediocres who amble through life and http://home.in.tum.de/~paula/mwc/tex...guide/501.html for providing the lyrics to al's greatest show........

Carry on.

skier · 09-01-2005, 06:23 PM

In my psych class I was taught a theory called "Belief in a just world"- The belief that individuals get what they deserve in life, an viewpoint that leads people to belittle or mock victims.

~~ found the passage in my book.

Quote:

We need to believe in a world where hard work and clean living pays off, and where sloth and sin is punished. If we're to believe otherwise, we'd have to accept that we, too, are vulnurable to the cruel twists and turns of fate. So how do people defend themselves from this realization? If people cannot help or compensate the victims of misfortune, they turn on them. Thus, it is often assumed that poor people are lazy, that crime victims are careless, rape victims "ask for it", battered women provoke their violent and abusive husbands.

They conducted a study (Hafer, 2000. PM if interested) where participants watched a TV news story about a boy who was robbbed and beaten. Some were told that the boy's assailants were captured, tried, and sent to prison. Others were told that the assailants fled the country, never to be brought to trial- a story that strains on one's belief in a just world. Afterwards, participants were asked to name as quickly as they could the colours in which various words in a list were typed (for example, the word chair may have been written in blue, floor in yellow, and wide in red). Then the words themselves were neutral, all participants- regardless of which story they had seen- were equally fast at naming colours. But when the words pertained to justice (words such as fair and unequal) those who had seen the justice-threatened version of the story were more distracted by the words, and hence, slower to name the colours. In fact, the more distracted they were, the more they derogated the victim. With their cherished belief in a just world threatened, these participants became highly sensitive to the concept of "justice" and quick to disparage the innocent victim.

I guess what i'm trying to say by quoting this stuff is that many of us are not in a position to help or protect these people without cost to ourselves, so we need to believe that they are doing bad things or are bad people in order to dismiss the problem, and feel better.

Ustwo · 09-01-2005, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimetic

Sometimes it's cheaper to pay for a little more welfare and education than it is to pay for increased police, jails, private security and house insurance.

That's my view of the world anyways...

Yea cause its working so well as it is. More free money and programs are the answer.

War on Poverty is almost won!

lurkette · 09-01-2005, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Yea cause its working so well as it is. More free money and programs are the answer.

War on Poverty is almost won!

Sigh. Just because it's being enacted poorly now does not mean the principle of preventive maintenance is invalid. I'm working with Nobel-winning economists who are strongly in support of public investment in early childhood education, parent support and training programs, and other programs to ensure that at-risk children are given the best chance at healthy early development because it provides a strong return on investment (in terms of increasd future wages, decreased cost to the public for special education, criminal prosecution, etc.). So does preventive health care. I can point you to the papers if you're interested in the math and not just in being snarky.

Demanding an end to public programs because they're not working as currently operated is sort of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Suave · 09-01-2005, 11:42 PM

I don't think there are a lot of "meanies" here. The discussions here tend to take a logical tack rather than emotional, which can make them look a bit callous at times. There are a couple of people who might fit into the "meanies" category, but less than in real life I'd wager.

connyosis · 09-02-2005, 01:16 AM

Like a lot of posters before me said, people should be held responsible for their own actions. That being said, I think you should get a second chance did you screw up.

I know that I bitch about the high taxes in my country, but I also know that I think it's worth it. Sure I get a little pissed when I see people abusing the system, but in the long run I'm certain more good than bad will come out of it.

analog · 09-02-2005, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

War on Poverty is almost won!

Alright, a war that's as likely to be victorious as the War On Drugs, awesome!

Bill O'Rights · 09-02-2005, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimetic

Sometimes it's cheaper to pay for a little more welfare and education than it is to pay for increased police, jails, private security and house insurance.

So...it's like extortion, then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane

Yeah, I'm most definately a meanie.
I actually expect people to be responsible for themselves and their families. I think people who refuse to work should not eat. Criminals should be locked up. Killers should be killed. And the government should stay the hell outta my business as long as I obey the law.
I'm one mean son-of-a-bitch.

Thanks for taking the time to write down my thoughts for me. Well...except for the part about killing the killers. I did a personal opinion reversal, on that one, a couple of years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurkette

I'm working with Nobel-winning economists who are strongly in support of public investment in early childhood education, parent support and training programs, and other programs to ensure that at-risk children are given the best chance at healthy early development because it provides a strong return on investment

Now THAT, I can get behind. Ol' Bill is all about the education.

edit I'm not sure why...but I somehow find it quite interesting that the score is now tied at 22, between meenies,and commies, with a whopping 26 that just don't give a rat's ass.

Fascinating.
[/bad "Spock" impression]

lurkette · 09-02-2005, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Now THAT, I can get behind. Ol' Bill is all about the education.

But it's not just about education - it's about treating maternal depression, providing adequate child care for parents who have no choice but to work, trianing pediatricians to recognize and refer abuse and neglect, ensuring healthy social and emotional development as well as cognitive development, and providing a community safety net for when the family fails, or better yet, to KEEP the family from failing. We're finding that it's the social and emotional development skills that matter even more than cognitive skills in predicting good educational and social outcomes. It's about making sure that every child has a healthy environment of relationships as well as a healthy physical environment in which to develop.

/soapbox. Sorry, this is one of my jobs: communicating developmental science to policy makers - and I get a little worked up about it.

Ustwo · 09-02-2005, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurkette

But it's not just about education - it's about treating maternal depression, providing adequate child care for parents who have no choice but to work, trianing pediatricians to recognize and refer abuse and neglect, ensuring healthy social and emotional development as well as cognitive development, and providing a community safety net for when the family fails, or better yet, to KEEP the family from failing. We're finding that it's the social and emotional development skills that matter even more than cognitive skills in predicting good educational and social outcomes. It's about making sure that every child has a healthy environment of relationships as well as a healthy physical environment in which to develop.

/soapbox. Sorry, this is one of my jobs: communicating developmental science to policy makers - and I get a little worked up about it.

Lurkette the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The welfare programs have created a helpless and permanent underclass. Right now this same underclass has made it impossible to give needed help to those in New Orleans with their lawlessness. While what you say sounds wonderful in theory, in practice so far it is nothing but a dismal failure condemning multiple generations to helplessness and dependency. Without a total revamping of the system, and a total cut off of funds for some people, this will only continue to grow.

raeanna74 · 09-02-2005, 06:22 AM

From what I've seen most of the TFP is filling with people who expect responsibility from themselves and others. The reply to posts that are whiny often boil down to telling the whiner to 'buck it up' and to 'take responsibility' for themselves and what they are doing. The TFP is simply not filled with 'victims'. I have seen a SOMEWHAT unforgiving attitude toward those who are selfish, wastful, or users but maybe that is a good thing. The majority of members don't seem 'mean'.

09-02-2005, 06:44 AM

Quote:

The welfare programs have created a helpless and permanent underclass.

The alternative to a helpless and permanent underclass is a strong, violent and dynamic one. Look at the situation in New Orleans to see what happens when you take support away from people who have no job, no money, no hope, and a gun.

Yes, there will be those who are sucked into a life of dependency if you offer them the hand of support, but if you take it away, you are instead condemning a different set of people to a life of violent crime.

I know I'd prefer to see the welfare family in my supermarket than the armed and desparate criminal gang.

Ustwo · 09-02-2005, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zen_tom

The alternative to a helpless and permanent underclass is a strong, violent and dynamic one. Look at the situation in New Orleans to see what happens when you take support away from people who have no job, no money, no hope, and a gun.

Yes, there will be those who are sucked into a life of dependency if you offer them the hand of support, but if you take it away, you are instead condemning a different set of people to a life of violent crime.

I know I'd prefer to see the welfare family in my supermarket than the armed and desparate criminal gang.

Oddly we didn't have this problem BEFORE welfare. You see welfare as a bribe apparently.

jwoody · 09-02-2005, 07:12 AM

Hey, Ustwo! You should come to England, you'd hate it over here.

Two years of continuous employment (and National Insurance payments) guarantess a lifetime of loafing.

Long live The System!!!

_________________

I'm one of the many hundreds of thousands of people who make a tidy living out of the distribution of the social fund.

I convert houses for disabled and elderly people who, otherwise, wouldn't have the funds to live a comfortable life. In five years I've converted about 1,500 houses and spent about £10,000,000 of taxpayers money in the process.

I haven't worked for one person who I thought didn't deserve everything they got and more.

View Poll Results: Is the TFP full of meanies?
Yep, we're all meanies.	28	28.57%
Nope, its one big tree-hugging communist love fest.	31	31.63%
I honestly couldn't give a rat's ass.	39	39.80%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

08-31-2005, 12:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
analog Banned	Is the TFP full of meanies? My sincere apologies to zen_tom... this was originally his thread, but I was trying to fix something with the post order and somehow accidentally deleted it. Oops! lol So anyway, here is the original post... and when zen_tom posts in this thread, i'll fix it back like I never messed it up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the last few days I have seen threads starting up about immigrants, foreign aid, welfare, even rescuing people trapped in New Orleans, calling for us to withdraw our assistance for one reason or another. I have to say, that every time I read about someone indignantly complaining about how their taxes are supporting someone or other, and how unfair it is because a) they had plenty of time to evacuate b) they are foreigners c) they might be criminals d) they are probably on drugs e) they should have thought about that before they lived on a floodplain f) they have too many children and on and on and on - I just can't help feeling how mean spirited these people are. Has anyone wondered exactly what proportion of their hard earned tax actually goes towards each of these people? Personally, as an individual, what have they lost - a few cents? Yes, state dependance is ugly and can be an outcome of offering help to those less fortunate - but even so, on the whole isn't it still worth those few extra cents? Yes there are those of us who have worked our way out of debt and trouble by doing things the hard way. Congratulations to all of us; but if all that hard work has made so bitter as to begrudge others the assistance they might need, then perhaps in actual fact, it is us who needs the help, not the other way around. Last edited by analog; 08-31-2005 at 12:29 PM..

08-31-2005, 12:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	I voted tree hugging love fest, because although I don't agree with everyone here about everything, I know that people VALUE my opinion and give it the respect that they would an aquaintance. (and a damned handsome and modest one at that...) Where else in this vast festering pit of nothingness are you going to find the thoughts and feelings of people who are litening to each other, and truly communicating? I hate boards that tell me to shut up because I am new to the community, like you need a fucking pedigree to get your opinion heard, or other boards that are so focused on one topic you immediately get flamed if you ask someone what the weather is like in their part of the world. nastybiunzXXX: STFU, OMG, dont u know that u r supposed to talk about the supr suxxorz? BigBen: Uh, yeah, okay. I think I'll be going now. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

08-31-2005, 12:42 PM	#6 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	count me among the mean spirited then....Im WELL aware there are people who actually need assistance....those people I have no problem helping. But when Im standing in line behind some woman with 6 kids all stair step in age using her WIC card to buy groceries it pisses me off to no end. They system needs to change.....do you know that, at least here anyway, WIC does not condiser toilet paper a necessity? __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

08-31-2005, 12:52 PM	#7 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	Tree-hugging hippie, here. The majority of people don't abuse the system, and one or two anecdotal instances is not a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not overly fond of people having families they can't afford, but until they implement mandatory Depo until people can pass parenting tests and prove they can afford children, we're going to have to realize that other people's choices are not always the ones we might make, and do the best we can to get along and not punish children for their parents' stupidity. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

08-31-2005, 12:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	Tfp is filled with both meanies and non-meanies... None of the above would be a great alternate choice.

08-31-2005, 12:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	oops - analog, It was my post initially - stevo just managed to post inbetween me posting the initial pre-ramble, and the actual poll... Just to clarify, I don't want to see people being rewarded for being lazy - but I do think that on the whole, more good is done than harm. Yes people abuse the system, but, what other system should we use? And if we decide to be stricter and impose tougher regulation, there comes a point when the cost of imposing the controls becomes greater than the cost of supporting a few layabouts. The way I see it, if you are happy to accept handouts for the rest of your life, you're never going to live a rich and rewarding life - it's in everyone's own interests to work for themselves and be self sufficient. But I just don't care if there are going to be some saddos who are not beneath living like a parasite - that's their problem, not mine. Sure, it's my money that is supporting them, but I'd rather support a few lowlifes and see a safety net for regular joes like you and I, than scrapping the whole system and hoping for the best.

08-31-2005, 12:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	The children are already being punished by being the spawn of these idiots... I accept that people will be stupid, I don't expect that the government should have to pay for their stupidity (the government has enough of their own stupidity to pay for) Charities are in place for a reason, and people willingly give to them... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

08-31-2005, 01:04 PM	#9 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	I'm sure I was much more eloquent the first time around. I think people ought to be responsible for the consequences of their decisions. I think that charity ought to be voluntary. If either of those make me a meanie, I can learn to live with it.

08-31-2005, 01:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	I don't think we're a bunch of meanies (but that's what I voted, because it made me giggle). But I think it's pretty easy for all of us to criticize what we don't understand, since most of us have not lived in the life of any one who needed this help. As for those who take advantage, they piss me off too! But I know what's okay in my world may not be for theirs. Again, in the scheme of things... who gives a rat's ass? I have more important things to worry about! Like cheese, dammit! __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-31-2005, 01:11 PM	#11 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	cheese is on the WIC list JJ!!! i know around here...WIC vouchers can and are used to trade for crack (i've seen it first hand) __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

08-31-2005, 01:23 PM	#12 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	That's why I think we should reform, not refuse. I am not a liberal, I am not a conservative (by any stretch), I just want people to make decisions that are the best for our society and economy as a whole. Does that mean a little more tough love on PA programs? You betcha. Does that mean we will need to keep a PA program because it's hard to do anything but be poor when you're poor? Hell yes. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-31-2005, 01:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
mackyroo Tilted Location: in a padded room.	I browse a lot of forums and the TFP Community is the most mature and intellectually stimulating I have encountered yet. On the topic of state help such as WIC, I don't like to see people abusing the system, but I also know firsthand that these things are used by people who do need them. While there are problems with the system, some alternatives would be worse to endure. __________________ Official Bullshit.

08-31-2005, 03:20 PM	#16 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	What a bunch of assholes. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

08-31-2005, 03:33 PM	#17 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	Experience seems to mellow everyone here, IMO. The oldest posters with children and experience and many adult years behind them seem to be the sages, while the posters lacking the above seem in general to be the most brash and individualistic (sometimes narcissistic). It's easy to be judgemental of what you (rightly or wrongly) don't know. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

08-31-2005, 03:33 PM	#18 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I voted for yep, but i was being sarcastic. Does that make me a meany?

08-31-2005, 03:45 PM	#19 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	I don't consider myself a meanie, but perhaps I have conveyed that here. I did express cynicism towards the PA system, although I am not for scrapping the whole thing. I don't mind helping those who need it. And I am feeling very sympathetic towards the hurricane victims; we as humans have been living near the ocean for thousands of years because of fishing, transport, etc. Although we may no longer need the same things we did years ago, it's unreasonable to just dump those cities just because they are near the water. If people quit living where there are natural disasters, we'd all have to relocate to the moon. Anyway, I had to vote I don't give a rats ass because my option wasn't listed. I don't think that people here are mean spirited just to be mean, but some people have differing opinions that others may not like and are extremely opposed to. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

08-31-2005, 03:50 PM	#20 (permalink)
Nimetic Junkie Location: Melbourne, Australia	Sometimes it's cheaper to pay for a little more welfare and education than it is to pay for increased police, jails, private security and house insurance. That's my view of the world anyways...

09-01-2005, 03:50 PM	#22 (permalink)
Seer666 Oh dear God he breeded Location: Arizona	I am a meanie. I think if people do stupid things, then fuck the, the get what they get. I do not feel the need to go out and feed the homelss and hug the retarded. I think stupidity should be a capitol offense, and I that we should have Meth Head season right after Deer season. I also have a extream soft spot for the people that have shown they are worth being close to. For my friends, I will do anything to anyone to make sure they are safe and hav what they need. rest of the world can burn. As meanie, I can say there are a lot of meanies here. There are also a lot of softies, and a lot of people in the middle. That is why I like this place. Many people, many views, and most of them well thought out. And the ones that aren't well thought out at least tend to be entertaining, so I can live with them to.... __________________ Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

09-01-2005, 04:43 PM	#23 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	I'm glad to see a balance here - I personally veer between being a softie and not giving a rat's ass. I know there's a huge spectrum of difference between being refused assistance because you didn't believe a government warning (in the case of NO) and abusing the welfare system - but I do think people reap what they sow - so whether it's someone buying lobster with their welfare stamps or someone who happened to live in the path of a devastating force of nature - I like to think I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, because everyone has to deal with their own conscience in the end. I think there is a difference between feeling (rightfully) annoyed at someone who is abusing the system (because it shows a 'fuck you' attitude and general lack of respect for your fellow citizens) and someone who could do with a helping hand. I do think everyone has a conscience, and that ignoring it or denying it leads to all kinds of unhappiness. Last edited by zen_tom; 09-02-2005 at 04:19 AM.. Reason: making things clearer

09-01-2005, 05:17 PM	#24 (permalink)
Aladdin Sane Degenerate Location: San Marvelous	Yeah, I'm most definately a meanie. I actually expect people to be responsible for themselves and their families. I think people who refuse to work should not eat. Criminals should be locked up. Killers should be killed. And the government should stay the hell outta my business as long as I obey the law. I'm one mean son-of-a-bitch. __________________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

09-01-2005, 05:36 PM	#26 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	This is a microcosm of the real world I think..... there are truly great caring people here, there are assholes who seemingly care only about themselves, the well informed and the happily uninformed, the right, the left and everyone in the middle are all represented very well in TFP. I could name names.... but that would be unfair..... overall this is a great place and if you cannot locate a friend or 2 .... if you can't find the courage to IM people and say "great post" or just send them a nice word...... well then you have the same courage as I do.... lol..... Seriously, there are many here I truly like and could probably call a friend.... and some I would avoid. I am truly happy I found this place and I know some people.... here have truly helped me cope with some issues that I could get off my chest in a way I couldn't elsewhere. And there are those assholes that get great enjoyment out of others pain..... There are those here that care but will never find courage to tell me. And there are those here that don't have a clue as to who I am and seriously just don't care..... go figure..... Amazingly just like the real world. So, no we're not meanies here and we're not hippies..... we are people, struggling through our lives each of us trying to find some form of happiness and sense of belonging..... and in all honesty...... TFP gives me a slice of that. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-01-2005, 05:50 PM	#27 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	PS: Threadjack...... For PsychoDad, the poster above me........... "Who's that... Who's the man with the itchy gun. Who's the man who kills for fun! Psycho dad. Psycho dad. Psycho dad! He sleeps with a gun, but he loves his son. Killed his wife 'cause she weighed a ton... Psycho Dad!" Thank you AL BUNDY God of all us mediocres who amble through life and http://home.in.tum.de/~paula/mwc/tex...guide/501.html for providing the lyrics to al's greatest show........ Carry on. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-01-2005, 11:42 PM	#31 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	I don't think there are a lot of "meanies" here. The discussions here tend to take a logical tack rather than emotional, which can make them look a bit callous at times. There are a couple of people who might fit into the "meanies" category, but less than in real life I'd wager. __________________ "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

09-02-2005, 01:16 AM	#32 (permalink)
connyosis Psycho Location: Sweden - Land of the sodomite damned	Like a lot of posters before me said, people should be held responsible for their own actions. That being said, I think you should get a second chance did you screw up. I know that I bitch about the high taxes in my country, but I also know that I think it's worth it. Sure I get a little pissed when I see people abusing the system, but in the long run I'm certain more good than bad will come out of it. __________________ If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

09-02-2005, 06:22 AM	#37 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	From what I've seen most of the TFP is filling with people who expect responsibility from themselves and others. The reply to posts that are whiny often boil down to telling the whiner to 'buck it up' and to 'take responsibility' for themselves and what they are doing. The TFP is simply not filled with 'victims'. I have seen a SOMEWHAT unforgiving attitude toward those who are selfish, wastful, or users but maybe that is a good thing. The majority of members don't seem 'mean'. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

09-02-2005, 07:12 AM	#40 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	Hey, Ustwo! You should come to England, you'd hate it over here. Two years of continuous employment (and National Insurance payments) guarantess a lifetime of loafing. Long live The System!!! _________________ I'm one of the many hundreds of thousands of people who make a tidy living out of the distribution of the social fund. I convert houses for disabled and elderly people who, otherwise, wouldn't have the funds to live a comfortable life. In five years I've converted about 1,500 houses and spent about £10,000,000 of taxpayers money in the process. I haven't worked for one person who I thought didn't deserve everything they got and more. __________________ .