Charlatan

Then you know how hard it is for some to take that handout... What a state they have to be in... You are a single person. Living without handouts is much easier.

Add a kid to the mix and it's another ball of wax.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

tspikes51

I am a cashier at a busy grocery store on the University of Kentucky's campus. I see abuse of food stamps every day. I checked out a couple on Saturday that used food stamps to buy fucking ribs. They were wearing new clothes. Most of the people who use food stamps that I check out usually buy cigarettes too.

One public assistance program I can agree on that Kentucky has (I'm not sure if any of the other states have a similar program) is the WIC (Women, Infants, and Children) program. Citizens are given a voucher for items such as a pound of cheese or a gallon of milk. They have to get a certain kind of everything, and that's what I think public assistance needs to be heading for if they can't just get rid of it. I'm not against helping people out, but I think that help needs to come through private organizations.

__________________
"I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million."
-Maddox

Marvelous Marv

I missed the part where it was explained why it's MY fault. However, I sure won't get out of paying for them.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Marvelous Marv

Why do you think that is? Is it because 100% of landlords are greedy? Or could property taxes, permits, and requirements for developers to build parks, schools, roads, sewer lines, and "affordable housing" have anything to do with it?

I have yet to see the answer to the same question I keep asking, which is basically, "Why am I forced to support the people YOU want supported?"

If charity were handled by charitable organizations, I would have the option to contribute only to those I find worthy. That would certainly create a "quality control system" for weeding out deadbeats.

Unfortunately for some, it would eliminate a very widespread method of buying votes. Then what would liberal politicians do?

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Vincentt

http://www.zompist.com/welfare.html

8% of 'your' money.
Food stamps being under 2%

__________________
.

Charlatan

Yes, it is sometimes these things but why would a free market keep the rent low when you can just as easily jack it up and get more?


You Americans are so funny. It always comes down to "what do I have" and "fuck you if you don't have it too". I'm sorry of that sounds harsh but that's just what it looks like from the outside.

I really don't care about my money getting redistributed through out the system to help those who need assistance. I am concerned about fraud and mismanagement but not legitimate need.

You are "forced to support the people YOU want supported" because your government has decided that it is the most efficient way to make the system work... I know, charitiable organizations can do it better. I don't think so.

Frankly, I'd be WAY more concerned about mismangement and pointless spending on other parts of your tax dollar (military and war anyone) than the small amount that goes to help your fellow man...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

filtherton

Why should my tax dollars pay the police when they answer a call you made to them? Why do my tax dollars go to pay for an invasion that i never supported in the least? You want to know why? Because that's how it is. That's part of life in america, or in any community. Individual members of the community make individual sacrifices for the better of the community as a whole. If you don't like it, perhaps in the name of consistency you should make damn sure that you never use any government service ever again, unless the benefits you recieve from that service are being paid for by your tax dollars and your tax dollars alone.

guthmund

Don't worry, it looks like that sometimes from the inside as well.

Here's the thing -- You're going to pay for them one way or another. I mean, I imagine with the demise of all government assistance, a lot of these folks are going to find they're way into the penal system, the healthcare system (I mean, all government assistance programs are gone, right?), and become quite the burden on the educational system (I mean, you think kids are stupid now...wait until they kill free lunch, food stamps and subsidized day care).

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

BigBen

One of the main threats to our wonderful and proud public healthcare system up here in "Canuckistan" (love that one, btw) is what Bill was describing when talking about unnecessary medical treatment.

The only solution is to have a gatekeeper at the door that assesses need. Physicians are very hesitant to do this, because they may misdiagnose something very serious, and administrators are unwilling to do this because they do not have the clinical authority to turn someone away... All we can do is educate the public to not go to an emergency room unless it is an emergency.

We have a toll free line that connects you to a registered nurse, and you call and talk to her about your symptoms. She then recommends (without liability) what over the counter medications you could take and what the next clinical step is. The stats say that the majority of calls DO require emergency treatment. Haha, the majority of people only call the number when they should be calling an ambulance!

I personally do not want the job of telling someone "Your injury/illness is not serious enough to be treated here, please go to a clinic or make an appointment with a doctor's office". Plus, we have set up the system to reward physicians financially for seeing these patients.

The system would change if we gave doctors 1 dollar for assessing a sore throat. They would then tell the nurses to tell those sore throat patients to fuck off, and then the sore throats would have to find an alternative (hopefully a clinic) to have their condition treated.

Cost of sore throat treatment at an emergency room: 350$
Cost of sore throat treatment at a clinic: Priceless

/end medicare rant
/begin welfare rant

I sleep better at night knowing that people less fortunate than me are having their needs (and, unfortunately sometimes, their wants) met by the government. I do not want to live in a society that turns its collective back at the poor and lower class (sorry to revert to 'class' descriptors here, but it best describes my thoughts).

I accept all the abuse in the world rather than scrap the present system.

I will collect my thoughts and post more. Maybe along the lines of Mal's... define my perfect welfare system!

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Coppertop

This already happens, after a fashion. You cannot buy, say, alcohol with EBT cards. And yes, I was personally in a position to know not too long ago.

Ananas

Interesting to read the different opinions about a volatile issue. From a personal standpoint: After spending months in the hospital, I'm finally home recuperating. I will not be able to return to work anytime in the forseeable future, so I set about exploring my options in the wonderful world of state/county/federal assistance programs.

1. Apply for disability. I will have to wait up to 180 days before a final decision is made on my case. Mind you, I am applying for money I've put into the system through Social Security (FICA) deductions on my paycheck for almost 30 years. What do I do for food, rent, etc. in the meantime.
2. While I wait, I am supposed to apply for other "interim" assistance programs: food stamps, medical, emergency care, etc. In order to qualify for these programs I must meet eligibility requirements including, little or no income, no savings, no retirement/pension/IRA/stocks/bonds, no health/life insurance, little or no family assistance...you get the picture. One has to be in the worst shape in order to qualify for these benefits. Your personal life and private business is subjected to the most minute scrutiny, essentially, you no longer have private or personal business.
3. After going through this humiliating process, one is then told to wait up to 30 days for a decision to be made concerning your eligibility. The employees who handle your case are not the kind of people you'd want to socialize with, or be associated with, in your previous life. But, you've got to deal with them and their condescending attitudes in order to get the help you need.
4. Local charities such as churches, Salvation Army, are overwhelmed by the demand for help in their communities; therefore, they are forced to limit the amount of assistance they will provide.

There are thousands, maybe millions, in the same boat as I am. We've worked all our lives, paid our own way, but a single catastrophe can wipe out everything you've built. When your savings run out, when you've sold your stocks, cashed in your CDs, made withdrawals on your IRAs (at severe penalty, I might add), when you've sold your home, your car, your personal belongings...where do you go?

Sure, there are people who abuse this particular system, just as there are people who abuse the government/corporate system. The only difference is the amount of money being scammed. Scamming for $150 in food stamps is peanuts in comparison to $64,000 for a hammer. Outrage should be equal opportunity.

BTW: I owned leather and furs, ate steak and lobster, had cable TV, European vacations, and all the other trappings of a successful corporate worker before my illness. I have to wear my leather coat and my nice clothes when I visit the welfare office because I don't have anything else to wear. I want to eat a steak once in a while because that's what I did before, so I'll treat myself to one and buy it with food stamps. So, next time yoou''re in the grocery store line and you see someone buying a cheap steak with food stamps, please restrain your outrage: it just might be someone in similar circumstances.

I am well aware that I don't fit the stereotype of the typical freeloading lazy welfare cheat, but think about it. The only jobs most of them are eligible for are minimum wage deadends that are not sufficient to afford housing, childcare, food, clothing. The working poor face the same obstacles. Faced with these odds (and some hungry children) maybe some of them are utilizing the programs to survive. Overall, as already pointed out, the Federal Government spends far more subsidizing people and corporations who definitely don't have a need for any assistance, but it seems that it's easier to target the poor, the ignorant, and the helpless because they are all too visible. The media has helped make them into scapegoats while diverting your attention away from the unrestrained looting of the government coffers by the wealthy undeserving.

The middle class gets screwed on both ends in this deal, but for some reason they only use the poor (and a few layabouts) as their whipping boys.

__________________
it's gritty

Sultana

Wow, what a thread. Okies, here's my $0.02.

I used to be very harsh about Public Assistance recipients as well. Why do I have to support them, didn't want Section 8 housing in my neighborhood (still don't actually, but more on that later). I felt that people had gotten themselves in a bad situation, let them get themselves out, I never asked for help when I was broke, etc.

What changed is my sister and my three very young nephews being left basically homeless, broke, alone and abandoned by her husband/their father, all the way across the country.
It's a very long story, but she managed to get to my home (in California), and get on assistance.

You know, I say this with all respect, honestly, to the folks who "have too much self-respect to accept public assistance" that's great. But when you're a needy single parent, that much self-respect is a luxury one can't afford. And believe me, CA public assistance works real hard to make sure that you don't build up self-respect. As someone earlier said, every single aspect of your life is examined in scrutinizing detail. You have to fill out the same paperwork constantly, and every single blasted month my sister got notices that she was getting immediately cut off because they didn't have her paperwork--they lost it, couldn't find it, but they threatened her and her babies with homelessness and hunger at every turn because they couldn't bother to file paperwork correctly.

Just last month she got yet another notice, and made the trip to the office to re-re-re-re-re-(ad infinatum) submit paperwork--and saw the packet she gave them previously on the worker's desk! She actually pointed it out and handed it to them. No thanks nor apologies for the likes of her, though.

They have failed to repay her for many expenses they were supposed to take care of. She doesn't qualify for gov't housing because she can't pass the credit check (thanks to soon-to-be ex) (yes, at least in CA you have to be able to pass a credit check to get Section 8 housing). Just all kinds of stuff. This is just the tip of the iceburg.

I do suppose one could say that she married poorly, made a bad choice of spouse. Yes she did. Glad that hasn't happened to very many folks (yeah, a light touch of sarcasm here)...but I don't think that should mean that my little nephews should go without housing and food. My nephews who currently have a 90-98% GPA in school (the two older ones, the youngest is too young for school still).

Still and all, she's making the most of her limitied opportunities. Things are looking up. She's grown as a person. She's not yet completely off PA. They live in a terrible section of town (which pains me deeply), and will likely have to move to another state, which means no local family to help out with babysitting. Of course it means I wouldn't get to be with my nephews while they grow up, which is hard, but I also don't want them living in a meth community either...

I've changed too. I have a much clearer view of PA, and of the wide variety of people who depend on it. I do agree it's broken, needs to be fixed. but not only in the ways many here advocate.

Yes, of course there are abuses--because there are people involved. But I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I wouldn't want to castigate wholesale those who *really* have no other options.
Be glad you've not been in that position.

Oh yeah, I happen to have Section 8 housing in my neighborhood, and yes, sadly, everyone knows which houses they are, too. I admit, I wouldn't want to live next to that...they don't appear to appreciate what they have, nor take care of it. Can't say that's true for all S-8 recipients. Oh yeah, there's also currently a 4-year waiting list for S-8 vouchers. Oye.
One last note to this long-ass post: Why do we have to support those who cannot support themselves? I think it's part of the cost of enjoying a higher level of civilization, much like free schooling for all citizens. Also it tends to increase the level of civilization over time.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Bill O'Rights

I see a very huge difference between those who cannot support themselves, and those who cannot be bothered to support themselves.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

raeanna74

The disparity between the rich and the poor grows greater the more rich the rich become. For many poor there isn't much way out. It's difficult to support a family on a waitresses income. (I'm not even including those who spend what little they make on drugs, alcohol or tobacco.) Education costs money as well. There aren't a lot of opportunities out there for parents to improve their status.

Those who can't be bothered to support themselves make me sick. But for situations like that of Sultana's sister or Hubby and myself for a time (serious injury) it makes for a lifesaver. We were glad for the help when we had it and do not use foodstamps or income assistance any longer. I know that if I wanted to we could get back on it. It would be easy enough for me to simply say that I don't make any income and because I have a child at home they would not ask me to work. But that would make me feel sick with myself for USEing the system like that. There are those who abuse it in such a way and safeguards to prevent that are what we need. Not a blanket refusal to assist those truely in need.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Yakk

Because if people cannot get some things (house, food, etc), people tend to stop valueing traditional social mores, like private property and the sanctity of life. And really, at a certain level, they are right in their shift of views.

I don't like living near people who don't value private property and the sanctity of life. I also don't like having people slide into that kind of depths.

This is known as "positive externalities". There are significant positive externatlities to flattening the quality of life gradient in a society. And upping the quality of life of the poorest is quite cheap.

If Charities delt with inequity well enough, then those who did not give to Charity would be getting a free ride. They'd have the benefits of a more equitable society, without paying any of the cost.


Secondly, the capitalist system is just a system. One negative consequence of the capitalist system, compared to alternatives, is that it makes more people starve to death than other systems might. One patch on the capitalist system is to provide, at a trivial cost, the minimium support required to feed, clothe, house and care for those in the system.

I won't support a system that generates optimal growth and wealth for the successful on the backs of starvation, death and sickness.

If someone took Capitalism as holy writ, they might view this differently, and consider any lives ruined by it to be justly ruined. I view it as just another choice. And if you can make it a better choice with a bit of social assistance, to smooth over the rought edges, all the better.

Thirdly, bloody revolution. If the government won't feed the masses, it quite often finds that the masses proceed to destroy the government. It has happened. Admittedly, America hasn't seen much in the way of revolution -- the underclasses in America have never revolted against an entrenched nobility -- but it does happen when inequity gets bad enough. The closest the USA has had, in my recollection, is labour strikes and government/corp crackdowns on labour movements.

This isn't a huge factor, but it should be considered as well as the above.


As for the example of the federal disaster assistance program -- following the "no assistance" mantra, shouldn't people who live in hurricane areas know that hurricanes show up, and have sufficient insurance to cover for any costs? I mean, they shouldn't live there if they aren't ready for the consequences.

I cannot see the difference between someone who gets knocked up at 16 without someone to support her, and someone who chooses to live on a flood plain on the gulf of hurricane without being able to pay for private hurricane insurance.

Well, actually, the 16 year old has the possible excuse that she was young and stupid.

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Sultana

Well, sure. I agree with that. I'd go so far as to to say that everyone here would agree.

But the issues addressed/opinions shared in this thread seems to have evolved past that, or perhaps moved in a different direction.

OK, so here's something to spice it up a little more:
I think that if I'm supporting someone, I have the right to determine how they are going to live. How far could we take that with PA?

Someone mentioned manditory drug testing (which I think is a good idea, for the record). What else?
*Not allowed to get pregnant/get someone pregnant (have no idea how that would be enforced, short of mandatory short term sterilization, lol! Hmmm).
*Not allowed to eat junk food.
*Not allowed to eat food better than what non-PA folks eat.
*Not allowed to go out in public in slippers and pajama bottoms.
*Monthly Section 8 home inspections to ensure they're up to neighborhood standards.
*Enforced physical activity by forcing PA folks to generate their own power/electricity via treadmills (talk about 2 birds with one stone!).

I hope you see the hints of humor here, but shoot, there's no harm in brainstorming, I suppose.

And then of course, ideas on how to pay for the implementation of the ideas would be beneficial too.

It's a good thread, by the way. Interesting discussion generated.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Sultana

Don't forget the riots in Los Angeles...a revolution on a small scale.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

filtherton

So what are you trying to say? That the majority of those on PA are just gaming the system? Do you have any proof? Where do you get this notion that abuse of PA is a widespread problem?

viejo gringo

I work at the food bank at out church once a month....my main hope is that I will NOT see familiar faces from prvious months...

These prople are checked and rechecked to make sure that they qualify....we feed over 1000 people in a couple of hours...

Some I have seen before, many for the first time, but above all
we make them feel welcome and to hold their heads high.....

Some I look forward to seeing, of coarse Victoria is only three,
but we are good friends...she doesn't know that I know both of her
parents are in rehab again--maybe the adoption by her aunt will go through right away....I have hope and prayers for a better life
for all of them---especially Victoria. it's hard not getting close to the people in your community when they need help.

vautrain

That system is already in place... it's called income tax.

Bill O'Rights

If you're looking for actual statistics...no, I do not have them. Nor does anyone else. If those figures were available...and made public...then I believe that would be the death nell to the system as a whole. My proof is in my experience.

I have seen, with my own two eyes, people dressed in the latest Tommy Hilfiger, sporting $75.00 hairdos, wearing $150.00 Nike sport shoes, buying groceries that I have to pass over...and paying for them with food stamps.

I see these same people living in section 8/H.U.D. homes that, by law, must be kept to a "standard" that it's sometimes difficult to keep my own home. Of course, when it's trashed, guess who also gets to pay for the renovation.

The Salvation Army gives out plastic trash bags full of age appropriate toys, to needy children, at Christmastime. A very noble cause, as I hate to see any child do without...especially at Christmas time. Yet, when i saw, on the local TV news, the toys being distributed, every...single...car, all of them, that pulled up to receive the distribution, was much nicer and newer than the car that I drive to work every day. Yet, the ones driving those cars were telling the news crews things like; "This is so great. Oh, thank God. I didn't know what we were going to do for the kids this year."

I could go on, but you get my point. The proof is in the pudding.

I'm not some cold heartless bastard that wants to see little children starve, because they weren't born to a higher station in life. There are people that truly, for whatever reason, need help. I do not begrudge them that. What I object to, are the people that do better on "the system", without so much as having to move off of the front porch, than the guy that busts his ass on a shop floor all day long.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

lurkette

I understand people's indignation at people who receive some kind of public assistance and seemingly shouldn't. But really, getting your knickers in a knot about this small, small minority does a disservice to the many people who try very hard to move off welfare.

Here are a couple of reasons not to get so worked up (from http://www.apa.org/pi/wpo/myths.html):

1. Public assistance programs (not counting Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security) make up only 1% of the federal budget, and about 2% of most state budgets.

2. "Analyses indicate that 56 percent of AFDC support ended within 12 months, 70 percent within 24 months, and almost 85 percent within 4 years (Staff of House Committee on Ways and Means, 1996). These exit rates clearly contradict the widespread myth that AFDC recipients wanted to remain on public assistance or that welfare dependency was permanent. Unfortunately, return rates were also high, with 45 percent of ex-recipients returning to AFDC within 1 year. Persons who were likely to use AFDC longer than the average time had less than 12 years of education, no recent work experience, were never married, had a child below age 3 or had three or more children, were Latina or African American, and were under age 24 (Staff of House Committee on Ways and Means, 1996)."

Furthermore, a few studies have indicated that something like 20-30% of welfare recipients are "unemployable" due to mental or physical disabilities.

Why don't you get equally worked up about the rich guy who gets first crack at IPOs because he's already a large institutional investor, or the corporate agriculture company that gets paid for NOT planting, or gets heavily subsidized so they can undercut growers from other countries? I understand the impulse that leads to the really strong sense of unfairness that someone else can get something for nothing and you're busting your ass to make do, but really you'd be better served to get pissed about something that affects you more.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

BigBen

Woah, I think we have travelled outside of the Monkeysphere here.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html

How about we don't get worked up about any of this, and instead sit back and relax?

I really think that You'd be better served to not get pissed at all, whether it affects you or not.

Hey, my buddy Carl Marx said that we have to rise up, and even Bob Marley wanted to fight against the system.

After extensive head scratching and pondering the existence of good/evil/sloth/gluttony/envy/pride has resulted in my personal gratitude that I don't require help to survive... I am also thankful that people can turn to the collective and recieve help.

I thought long and hard about Mal's system of segregation and re-education, but realized that to enforce that we would have to violate people's Constitutional (or in Canada, our Charter) rights. When we force people to act in a certain way to obtain assistance, are we not stripping them of their liberty? Have people died in wars to allow government to dictate living conditions on the poor and destitute? My friends, the present system is as good as we (the royal use of the word here) can get. People are still free, although that is a relative term, to decide how to live within the means government gives them.
Freedom is priceless in my opinion, and I would rather hand over all of my humble possessions than decide how someone else should live. Is that not what some of the posters are doing in this thread? Are they not deciding how people should live? How DARE WE? Oh, this is just a discussion, and we are not actually in charge of anything... thank (insert personal deity here)

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

filtherton

Here's the thing. From my experience, most upper middle class americans are whiny, sniveling, self important gasbags. The proof is in the pudding of my personal experience. I am, however, aware that my personal observations do not make up the whole of what reality is. There are a great many upper middle class americans that i have never come into contact with. There are a great many, i'd assume a majority, of people on PA that you have never come into contact with. Perhaps you have some sort of sampling method to determine which PA beneficiaries you will observe, but i somehow doubt it. It doesn't make sense to make to make bold proclamations without any sort of acceptable evidence to back them up. I wouldn't expect to be taken very seriously if i did such a thing myself.

If you want to complain about people gaming the system, that's fine. I'm sure most americans would agree with you that it is wrong for people to game the system, especially when those people are poor and the system is PA. Just don't pretend that you have any kind of factual basis on which to make the claim as to any specific percent composition of cheaters on public assistance.

It doesn't matter if you don't need public assistance. I don't need a math tutor, but i can see wisdom in the fact that they exist, and i don't begrudge people who make use of their services(which tuition helps to pay for at my school).

raeanna74

Or people that you weren't AWARE were on PA.

I know several of people who were on PA at one time or another who would avoid shopping during busy times at the store. I myself would do the same and with the new card instead of coupons for foodstamps it was easy to sortof scan it without ANNOUNCING that it was foodstamps. I'm not sure if people really noticed often, except for the cashiers. I would also avoid going with a slew of screaming kids (or even just one if I could avoid it) and tried to dress as conservatively as possible. No big brand names, not lots of brand new stuff or old cruddy stuff. Something inconspicuous. I didn't want people to notice that I was using foodstamps. I was also careful not to buy a lot of junk or expensive stuff (no caviar). Just the basics mostly. I have a feeling there are quite a few people out there who truely need the assistance, are not proud of it, and don't want people to know they are on it.

The people who are abusing the system seem to not be ashamed of using PA and almost seem to flaunt it. I have run into a few of those myself. Those are the types you are more likely to see I think and where you get your general impression of the PA dependants. Laziness in any form is disgusting and detrimental to our society.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Bill O'Rights

I'm confused. Or, it's possible, perhaps, that I have not yet had enough coffee. I fail to see in any of my posts, where I have attempted to make any "claim as to any specific percent composition of cheaters on public assistance". Nor have I quoted anything on a "factual basis", other than what I have observed. In fact, I do believe that I have stated several times that I am accutely aware of the fact that there are many out there that must have Public Assistance in order to survive. I do not begrudge one nickel to any hard working human being, whose back is truly up against the wall. I will say it one more time. What I object to are those that are on Public Assistance that somehow manage to maintain a better lifestyle than the guy sweating his ass off in a plant for 8 to 10 hours a day.

lurkette...you know me well enough to know that I do get worked up over these things. I live in Nebraska, for Pete's sake. I am aware, and outraged, over the evils of Agri-Business. That is, however, fodder for a different thread (and one that I may very well get to). I also know that the abuses perpetrated on Public Assistance amount to a mere drop in the bucket of government abuse. It is, however, the abuse that is waved in my face when I'm at the grocery store, or at the doctor's office, or when I'm writing the mortage check. I see it more. And...it pisses me off. As I said in the opening post, it is the one topic that gives me the appearance of a neo-con. Wouldn't ustwo just fall over in shock?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

lurkette

Hey, Bill - it's not just you I was aiming the comment at. (I know your political proclivities ) It just seems that a lot of people get very bent out of shape about these anecdotal situations, and tend to draw conclusions about people on public assistance, or about the program in general, based on those anecdotes. The incidence of actual fraud is hard to pinpoint, and studies I saw ranged from 1.2 - 8-ish percent of welfare cases being referred for fraud investigation, ranging from a few thousand dollars in overpayment to hundreds of thousands of dollars in TANF and housing assistance over a period of several years. These are isolated cases, but my concern is that even though we KNOW we are just getting upset over individuals who cheat the system, the individual stories tend to aggregate into a cultural story: "welfare cheat." It started with Ronald Reagan's welfare queen and it's been a long haul ever since to change public perceptions of people on public assistance. I just think we need to be careful getting into high dudgeon over a few visible instances, and direct our energies somewhere more productive. (To threadjack further....for instance, why does TANF perversely require that mothers of infants go back to work within 6 months to keep benefits, and not provide for HIGH QUALITY day care assistance when all the developmental literature argues for the cost-effectiveness of having a consistent primary caregiver for at least 6 months after birth?)

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

avhg1

I think all non-emergency assistance should be on a loan basis, some thing like tax and payment deferred student loans. People that take advantage of assistance would view it differently if they knew they had to pay it back. I have a neighbor that keeps trying to talk my wife into applying for WIC, like her. I think she is trying to make herself feel better about abusing the system by getting others to do it.

We live in $250,000 homes and drive decent cars. Yes we have bills that are at time hard to meet, but why should I take advantage of a system that is flawed. When I can't pay something, I call the creditor and come up with a plan to pay in parts. I get a second job or work overtime if I can and basically bust hump. Meanwhile, she goes out a buys a brand new Excursion. I don't know their entire situation, but if they can afford that new $60K SUV, they don't need assistance. Buy a used vehicle or STOP HAVING KIDS YOU CAN'T PAY FOR!!! She is also at least 250lb and if she would eat a bit less would probably have a whole lot more money. I hate people that think everyone else owes them something. Be thankful for what you have and if you want more, get off YOUR ASS and work harder!

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I shake the devil's hand daily... I'd do it hourly, but my hand gets tired.

Sultana

Just a little note, it actually costs significantly more to eat healthy. That's one of the big problems in the poorer areas of bigger cities, folks are getting by on $1 burgers and $0.69 burritos and whatnot. Many food sellers in those areas do not offer fresh fruit and veggies, and folks tend to not make the effort it would take to get them, and pay more for them than for a cheeseburger...
Overall it's much cheaper to eat unhealthily.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

lurkette

This is assuming that all people have the middle-class luxuries you're used to having: health, social support, backup resources.

A lot of people who end up on public assistance have mental health problems that are untreated because they don't have the education to seek treatment, or they don't have the insurance to pay for it. If you're poor, for whatever reason, it's harder to climb out. If my car breaks down, I have a credit card. If my credit cards get out of hand, I have home equity. If I lose my job, I have benefits and disability insurance. Not all people have the wherewithal to manage an extra job (transportation becomes an issue, as does job availability); not all people can handle the impact of a catastrophic illness, or any kind of mental illness (thank god my employers, who research mental illness, were understanding of my depression after my brother died!); not all people are able-bodied, educated, have any kind of skills, or can pull themselves up by their own fucking bootstraps. I get sick of this middle-class "why can't they just help themselves" attitude, as well as the "I did X so why can't you?" I see no problem with keeping a FREE social safety net in place to catch those who, for whatever reason, can't catch themselves. As a society, we have often created the context in which individuals find themselves making choices, good or bad. And it strikes me that as a society we have both a humanitarian and a practical interest in making sure that these people have some kind of structure for getting back on their feet, without indenturing them for the sin of having fallen on hard times.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

filtherton

Fair enough. Though you did say in your first post that you believed that the vast majority of people on PA don't need it. This would seem to imply that you believe that the majority of people on PA are cheating the system. All i did was question the relevance of that assumption in light of it lacking any possible means of verification.

PA makes you angry because it allow people who don't work as hard as you to live better than you on your dime. I'm just curious as to why you chose to focus on PA when nearly every aspect of human existence has this dynamic.

avhg1

Not really. If you compare volumes of food. I was 193lbs less than a year ago. I'm 148lbs now and find that I eat less than half of what I used to. My grocery bills are so much less now buying only healthy food. More expensive if you are too lazy to make your own food and only eat out, but that goes back to the get off your lazy ass subject again. They would actually have to make themselves meals.

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I shake the devil's hand daily... I'd do it hourly, but my hand gets tired.

Charlatan

I love it when Lurkette weighs in on a subject... all I have to do is point to her well written posts and say, "I agree".

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

avhg1

No, I didn't come from the middle class support you speak of. I see that as a pathetic excuse to expect from others. I didn't start off as well, but I don't think other people owe me.

I worked two jobs at $5 an hour and my wife worked two jobs as well. My wife and I took out student loans to go to school. I got an internship through school and worked my ass off. I worked through the night just about every week. My boss gave me all the overtime I wanted because he knew there was no one else there willing to work as hard as me. If there was a deadline or budget problem, I got the job. Instead of complaining about money and bills, I asked for more work. Even if I had money, I would never turn down a project.

I could have used the "I come from a poor background" excuse, but I have more pride than that. I wanted more, so I worked harder to get it. I didn't expect someone else to pay for my school. I took loans, knowing that I would pay it back. It is not where you come from that makes you who you are, it is your own drive, determination and dedication that makes someone successful.

There will always be those with more that me, but they don't owe me anything because I have less. There will always be those that have less than me, but I have no sympathy for those who choose to be that way because they are lazy. If you are lazy, don't put your hand out to me!

__________________
I shake the devil's hand daily... I'd do it hourly, but my hand gets tired.

avhg1

There is a difference between can't help themselves and don't want to help themselves! A difference between I want a brand new car and I can do with a used one. Because Joe Schmo overtime to buy his new car, should he have to pay higher taxes so I can have one without working the overtime? Should spoiled little Paris Hilton owe everyone else because they didn't start off the same as her. Does she owe them that? If you don't like where you start off or currently are, you have the choice. Sit and eat cheese on the couch while you whine about it or get up and work to change it. Don't expect me to work harder, so you don't have to.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying not to help anyone. If some needs help up after being hit by some hardship, they should get help. But help doesn't mean it should all be done for them. If you want to get up you have to make some effort yourself to go hand in hand with the help. That why I see a system of payment deferred, tax free loans with a plan to self support as the best way of helping. Teach them how to support themselves. If they don't want to learn or work, then you are not helping them.

If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. If you teach a man how to fish, he will eat for a life time.

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I shake the devil's hand daily... I'd do it hourly, but my hand gets tired.

Yakk

avhg1, as far as you are concerned, have you taken more from society, or has society taken more from you?

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

avhg1

It depends on the angle you look at it from. I don't feel like I take much from society. All acts of kindness are passed on by me. I feel like I could and want to do more for others, but you can't starve yourself to feed everyone else. I'm the type of person that will pull over when I see someone broken down on the side of the road. I like to give to those who are really in need. I donate money for disaster relief and give blood. I'm no saint, but you would never have to worry about me stealing from anyone or taking advantage of them.

In the respect of society taking from me, I get annoyed when I see money that has been put forth with a stated purpose going to other purposes or being taken advantage of by those that are lazy. I don't think society owes me anything and therefore I don't view it as taking as much as borrowing in order to be able to pay back more. That's why I say that I would have no problem borrowing money until I'm back on my feet and can pay back what I can afford as things get better.

I'm not a strictly black and white person. There are grey areas to almost every subject. There will always be thieves and con-artists, but I don't judge whole groups based on individuals. PA is the same thing. It shouldn't be taken away from those that need it, but it should be refined and revised to deter those that do not. Usually, those that don't need it are looking for something for free and don't want to pay back what they've taken. Those that truly need help are happy to get it and are proud the day that they have brought themselves up to the point that they are able to pay back the help they been given.

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I shake the devil's hand daily... I'd do it hourly, but my hand gets tired.

lurkette

Since we're dealing in anecdotes:

avhg1, I didn't come from a privileged background, either. My brother was born with a congenital illness that made it difficult if not impossible for us to get health insurance. Neither of my parents went to college. My dad worked a working-class job and got paid a decent wage that kept us just out of poverty. We got government cheese and butter and stuff, but so did most of the people in our poor-ish rural midwestern farming community. My parents made some stupid decisions (like my dad's penchant for buying used cars that didn't work, oh, and his cocaine habit) but we had good family support and some genetic predisposition to intelligence that had us kids come out all right. I put myself through college with scholarships, grants, and some loans that I'm still paying back.

Now you know my background.

We didn't get a lot of help, and I worked my way out of the cycle of poverty, too. But I had a few things going for me, in addition to just working hard: 1. parents who valued education, even though (or because) they didn't have it themselves; 2. the brains to get scholarships to a private college; 3. health care when I was an adult to deal with the mental and physical health problems that are the statistical lot of people who grow up in poverty. Not all people have these advantages. Not all people CAN work harder, smarter, whatever. How can you learn to fish well if you're bipolar, or borderline retarded, or a high-school dropout, or an unwed teen parent? Using the "well they should help themselves" argument to reduce the availability of assistance dooms people who have made one bad choice, or had bad circumstances, and who can't do what you and I did, to a life of no hope, no way out. Demanding that others work their way out of a bad situation just because you were able to neglects all of the various circumstances that people in need face. Absolutely, people who are able to work should do so, and absolutely there is a sense of entitlement in this country (not just among the poor) that extends beyond the basic needs, and negates personal responsibility. But to hold the individual solely responsible for this neglects the cultural and institutional role in creating the context in which the individual finds him/her self, and is a poor argument against social responsibility for helping those individuals become self-reliant if they can.

It's not "individual responsibility" vs. "welfare state;" The only thing that works is both/and: creating an environment in which individuals who are otherwise unable to take responsibility for meeting their own needs are able to find the means to do so. Removing the social safety net, or lowering the qualifying bar for those who should receive it, does nothing to create that environment.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

StanT

The biggest problem that I have with the way that public assistance is structured is the incentive and lack of incentive that it creates. I have no problem helping people that are less fortunate than myself, I think that it is fair and reasonable to have a public safety net that provides a minimal level of subsistance to those that need it. However, I have a problem when these programs incent people toward abuse.

Have another child while on welfare ... we'll send you more money.

Get a job while on welfare ... we'll send you less.

Public assistance must be structured to incent and favor those that work hard to get off the public dole. Public housing should not be the same as private. Public medical care should not be as inclusive as private. You shouldn't be able to eat as well on food stamps, as with cash.

avhg1

Lurkette, I believe we are on almost the same page and have more of a semantics issue then a difference in belief of the purpose of PA. Those who are disadvantaged mentally or physically are different cases. I was pointing to more the case where people that feel entitled to things that they are not willing to work for. I have an aunt with Down syndrome and she will always be on public assistance. The difference is that she still works to the best of her abilities for the things she has. Those types of assistance are not the cases that I’m referring to. I said before, assistance needs to be reformed to better help those who genuinely need it, not those who want to take advantage of it. In my own experience, I can only say that I have seen more cases of abuse of the system than the system being used as it was intended. I have also seen the difficulty that those who truly need the help have in getting it as a result of others abusing it.

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I shake the devil's hand daily... I'd do it hourly, but my hand gets tired.