Hip Hop Star Call For End to Gay Bashing
 

I applaud him for taking a stand. I do wish though that they would also take the same stand for the misogynistic hiphop lyrics and images. If he has a gay cousin, I'm sure he has a female cousin...

This underlines to me that alot of the times we don't really understand just how harmful a simple statement is until it "comes home" to you.

Good for him!

I get sick of the usage of the word "gay" to mean "something I don't like", which is implicitly a form of homophobic language usage. It's nice to hear someone admit that the connection is intended and explicit.

I find this interesting. It points out the false perception that gay=effeminate male, and tough guy=straight.

I also found the "breaking down barriers" comment interesting, as that doesn't jibe with my admittedly limited perception of rap, which often seems to me to be about erecting barriers between street culture and the police, the middle class, white culture, etc.

Perhaps my perception has been flawed.

I'm not, however, going to wade through all of the foul language, relatively uninteresting music sampling, misogyny, and difficult to understand lyrics to correct it. Perhaps it is the poetry of the streets, but there are just too many barriers for me to be able to access it.

Gilda

This is really cool. I've never been a fan of Hip-Hop, as a musical form it really does almost nothing for me. (Interestingly enough, my Music Professors decry rap as a more poetic, literary form, where my Literature Professors rail that it's much more musical than poetic. It always makes me laugh)

Anyway, it's always been interesting to see how this particular brand of bigotry has permeated and seeped its way into the minds of my peers. Not just referring to women as "Ho's," but also in particular, the repetetive use of "Gay" as a derogatory term. It angers my family, both immediate and not, that my 17 year-old cousin is constantly calling things she dislikes "Gay," and no matter how hard we try, we can't get across to her just why we dislike her doing it. (But then, she's also the only pro-lifer in a family entirely made up of pro-choicers. Go figure.)

Whether or not Rap and Hip-Hop are the poetry of the streets, I really can't say, but I'm glad to see someone stepping up and realizing that 'reality' doesn't always equal 'bigotry.'

I find this whole discussion interesting. While I agree with the spirit of this, I find it mildly innervating to see the co-option of words by specific communities, such as "gay" in this case to be associated with the homosexual community, and then placed out-of-bounds for use. To me, it's a little different than the word "nigger" in relation to the black community...I *think* that particular epithet was developed specifically to denigrate black people, whereas the word "gay" was used for a long long time before it became a "homosexual" word. I suppose the same could be said about the word "fag," or for that matter "spook" or a ton of other descriptive terms like this.

I guess I tend to be less upset about words that pre-existed their slang usage of various shades of intolerance than I am by words that are specifically created for that purpose.

it's appriciated...though he certainly isn't the first rapper or r/b artist to make such a statement. certainly he would be the highest profile artist to do so...

my only wonder is if he'll carry this forward with any energy or if this was the end of it. he's certainly in an interesting place to do so...he's not involved in any of the major rivalries, and is positioned much more on the lyrical driven range of rap. not to say his beats aren't good...but he's rapping much more like talib kweli or common than he is to even his labelmates at ROC. it's usually the "socially conscious" section of the genre, and doesn't always have the greatest traction in creating change.

his impact probably won't be in his own work, but in influencing the work he's producing for.

The problem with this line of thought is that language is a living entity. It isn't something you learn, and then leave behind, it is a living, breathing form. One that is constantly evolving.

While it's true that "Gay" has only become synonomous with homosexuality within the last 50 years, that does not exclude it from being, ninety-nine times out of a hundred, the definition used for the word Gay. More than that, if the people who choose to use the word Gay's original meaning, we'd still regard them as peculiar for using a word that means "happy" as derogatory.

Nor is this a singular event. The meanings, the denotations and connotations of plenty of words have changed throughout history. This book discusses many of them.

The point is, we do not have the luxury of being unperturbed by the original definition of any word and it's current usage. Within the framework of language, common usage is the rule, not the exception, if ninety-nine out of a hundred times, the word is used in a way different to it's originally meaning, it is still considered completely valid usage. Just because the word means happy, doesn't mean it can't be used in a derogatory manner, and if people are offended by that usage, then that must be fought.

No argument here about that aspect. I challenge thee to find a single teenager who would use the term, or many like it, in their original context. I don't mind the fluid nature of language - I mean, it is what it is, so what get angry about it...but I don't always like the taboo nature of some words, derogatory though they may be, particularly if they weren't originally conceived as being derogatory.

Then again, in this specific instance, I find the term "faggot" more derogatory than "gay." Maybe because the homosexual community itself uses the term "gay" to describe itself, whereas I don't think I've ever heard a GLAD member announce a meeting of "local faggots." etc?

I don't know...when I hear someone say "that is the gayest thing I have ever heard..." I don't find it as offensive. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just a child of the '90's.

Many of my friends and acquaintances say things like: "Man, that's gay" or "Damn, my computer is gay." My response has been, "I didn't know that inanimate objects have sexual preferences." That just kinda stops them in their tracks, and they feel like idiots.

The word gay has become so synonymous with "bad" that people don't even think about the people they're bashing. It's kinda like te "bros before hos" thing. I don't like having anyone referring to me as a ho because I'm a woman, just as I'm sure a lot of homosexual don't like their friends saying that something bad is "gay."

Well there is one small thing to be said for people who use gay in a negative way, it's like a big neon sign that says "I'm ignorant and insecure" There are many signs like this painted on foreheads. Saves time in finding friends.

What is so sad about the world of hip-hop is that the public's perception is totally mangled.
The media is primarily at fault for this, due to their nature of primarily focusing on sensationalism [*shakes fist at Bill O'Reilly, amongst others] as well as sex, bling-bling, and violence [shakes fist at MTV and the Big 5 record labels].

The underground world of hip-hop is a bit divided into different idealogies. There's a group which attempts to emulate the mainstream world - in which some of them reach the mainstream, and thus continues the cycle of the crap hip-hop.
However, there's the other group, which indentifies itself with tolerance, social equality and justice.

Mos Def [one of the more well known and respected rapper in hip-hop] demostrates the other world of hip-hop in the song 'Fear Not Of Man'

Kanye West happened to be one of the few who crossed into the mainstream, with success, and still raps with a social conscience in mind. On his previous album, College Dropout, he even collaborated with less 'refined' rappers including Jay-Z and Ludacris; as well as ones from his echelon - Mos Def and Common.
I applaud and admire him as a music artist and hopes he continues on his journey and look forward to hearing his next album coming on Aug. 30th.

Catcha back on the flipside,
will.


PS - I encourage the discussion of the conotations to the word 'gay'; but I suggest that another thread should be created for it, so we don't divulge too much from the original topic, of Kanye West.

I have one:

The elusive and rare DOUBLE INSULT:

A soldier was having a problem starting a chainsaw, as we were clearing a wood obstacle. An old sergeant walked over and screamed:

"Put your fucking purse down and pull on the cord, You Nancy Faggot!!"

I thought to myself, "Wow, that is insulting to both women and homosexuals at the same time. I've never heard anything like that before!"

And to this day, I still haven't.

We (not me, the army) often use sexual orientation references to belittle someone, and I quickly stop it by asking the question: What if he is gay? Do you know how much trouble you will be in if someone hears you talk like that?

I have had the pleasure of serving with (openly) homosexual soldiers, and their sense of humour and outlook on life is inspiring. Hence, I do not use sexual or gender references as an insult.

Another funny one: I was hungover on a run, and was in the back of the pack. A female ran past us slow-pokes and yelled, "What, are your dicks slowing you guys down?"

One of my fellow slow-pokes said "That shit ain't funny." I was too busy laughing to reply.

Man, I always knew this cat was different.

I really love KanYe West.

And I really hate the whole "ugggh ur ghey" thing. Come on, can't you think of a better insult? HEY RAPPERS! Be creative when you're making up insults, don't go with the easy "faggot" thing.

Ben, you have the best stories!

That's got to be one of the funniest things i've read concerning women digging on me.

To the story: I'd LOVE to say thank you to Kanye West- but I can't feel anything until I know this isn't a one-time, for-the-interview thing.

Only once this is actually carried on, will I be willing to say he's doing something good. Call me jaded, but far too many people stand on their large soapbox and do something good, only to completely ignore it after that point and go back to doing nothing.

It's always about examining the power behind the word and doing something about it. "Fag" and "nigger" are two excellent examples of how these kinds of epithets morph into something else over time -- not necessarily for the better, but into niches that somehow seem more appropriate for them as time goes by.

a word
 

How we react to a word is what gives that word its power.

I have to go with Analog on this one.
While I applaud Kayne on making this statement....it remains to be seen if this statement was anything more than a script thought up by his agent or MTV.
What he does in the future with this will really make the impact because there will be different reactions throughout the public eye.

I am not a huge rap fan, but I do like some of his work.

This would all mean a lot more if he didn't have a new album.


People will do anything for sales.

If we can get them to stop encouraging crime and violence against police, we'll be all set.

I cannot fathom why we take uneducated, criminal, third-rate "entertainers" seriously.

Sorry Gilda, I don't want to sound mean, but this kind of talk makes me really angry. It's not street music, it's not all sampled and the lyrics aren't that hard to understand, and Kanye doesn't even swear that much if at all, I don't remember.

It's 2005. Rap has been here for a long time now, it's time to recognize it for the legitimate genre that it is. You talk about barriers, I firmly believe people that don't like rap or hip hop have never listened to it.

Seriously, as I said above, how long has it been since you've even listened to hip hop?

Man, the self-righteousness in this thread just oozes. Many people don't like homosexuality, and there's nothing wrong with that. You can tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself feel better than others, but it doesn't make it true. If someone feels that the act of two men having intercourse with each other is disgusting, that's a perfectly legitimate feeling. And if they choose to express their disgust for this by labelling other things they find unpleasant as gay, there's also nothing wrong with that.

As for Kanye's comments, they sound good, but I'm not sure how genuine they are, or if he will actually act on them. From all accounts, he's a bit full of himself, and has talked about many issues without actually doing anything after.

And as for all the anti-rap/hip-hop comments, what hip-hop is and can be is very different from what is promoted on most TV and radio. Much "underground" hip-hop is highly experimental and very artistic. I personally listen to it almost exclusively, but I generally stay away from what's on MTV/BET/top 40 radio.

i hardly hear the word "gay" in rap and hiphop usually they just talking bout girls, money, drugs, and etc. so yea but at least hes taking a stand against something

I agree. A lot of people who preach tolerance for 'gays' are the same people who bash religion. Which is kind of ironic, I think. Where's your tolerance for that? You want the group of people that you bash to be more tolerant of you? That's not even funny. Not directed at anyone here, but just an observation.

Jumping on the 'let's not hate hip hop' bandwagon with :

A Musical History Lesson!

Back in the early 1970's hip hop was largely developed as an underground movement. The earliest days of it were very experimental and gave rise to the phrase 'poetry with a beat'. If you need a more recent point of reference, think ska in the nineties; underground, gaining a following but still hadn't broken into the mainstream.

The holy grail of hip hop at the time was to get into the top and this was done not by one of the established and respected artists (who, incidentally, did for the most part preach tolerance and understanding; KRS One is one of the few artists remaining from those days, give his stuff a listen if you need an example) but by an upstart group known as, drumroll please, Sugarhill Gang! Their upbeat and downright fun Rapper's Delight hit number 37 on US charts in 1979.

After that, hip hop began to see much more widespread recognition in the 80's, with a much larger following and several groups, such as Run-DMC, the Beastie Boys and the previously mentioned KRS-One broke into the mainstream with several top 40s hits. When you hear someone say 'I only listen to early rap' it's not uncommon for them to be referring to this sort of music, which more or less defined hip hop and was very fun and while not exactly preaching anything certainly didn't carry any real negative connotations. The worst that I can think of off hand might be Will Smith with Parents Just Don't Understand and I haven't yet met a single person who would say Big Willie's Styles are offensive. Not to that this is when there started to be a bit of a schism in the hip hop community, as the above mentioned artists and others brought out the radio friendly fare, while the underground 'beat poets' were still (and remain to this day) quite edgy and experimental.

All of this changed in the late eighties and early nineties. Rebellion in hip hop became huge and we went from innocuous Fight For Your Right (To Party) to NWA and Fuck Tha' Police. NWA, incidentally is by many considered to be the group that anchored gangsta rap (which later became the thug rap you hear today) in the mainstream. The acronym, for those interested, stood for Niggers With Attitude and it consisted of Dr. Dre, Ice Cube and Eazy E. After the group broke up and Eazy E was murdered, Dre and Ice Cube went on to make their own rather prominent marks on the hip hop world, Dre in particular starting his own record label and bringing us artists with buddha-like natures of love and understanding, such as Snoop Dogg and the infamous Eminem.

Which is largely where we sit today. I've heard the rise of gangster rap attributed to the poorer (and primarily black, hence the strong association between black musicians and hip hop) areas of cities like Detroit and New York. It was partially romanticized in movies like Boyz N The Hood and songs such as NWA's Straight Outta Compton.

Yup. That's my quick and dirty 3:00 am summary of how the rap you hear on the radio today came to be and why when someone like Mos Def or Kanye West says something like that about hip hop they're generally recognized to be referring to the 'underground' hip hop. Note too that this particular style is also quite prominently attributed to Great Britain, where I understand it's still very popular and not nearly as hard to find as it is around my neck of the woods.

I'm Alan Cross. Or I wish I was, anyway. Thank you and goodnight.

EDIT - Thanks to Pigglet for catching my mistake on that one. I swear, one of these days I'm going to try that sleep thing, then I may not make stupid errors like that.

I fear I've been misunderstood. I know it's not all sampled, street music, misogynistic, anti-police, and and-authority. I never said it was. There is, however, enough of those things that it creates for me a barrier to finding the other stuff you refer to.

That the lyrics are difficult to understand is, I would think, undisputable. When I listen to rap, I have difficulty understanding the lyrics, and that makes it very difficult for me to even understand the message, let alone appreciate it.

Wonderful. I'm glad there is more to it than just the surface aspects that show up in the media.

I accept it as a legitimate genre. I have listened to it, enough to know that I have difficulty understanding the lyrics, and enough to know that it just doesn't appeal to me.

For those who love it, good for you. I'm glad you have a music form that speaks to you. It just isn't to my taste, for the reasons I state above.

Gilda

Yeah, that's it. It has nothing to do with suburban white kids wanting to pretend they're "hard" or nothing. It's obviously those poor inner-city blacks who so like hearing how they're constantly getting shot at, not white kids living vicariously through others' sufferings while getting a chance to rebel against mommy and daddy. Why, look at Detroit for instance, which was the home of the notoriously poor and black gangsta rapper Eminem and that group of poor, black gansta rapping clowns ICP ( I doubt you could name another rapper from Detroit not affiliated with Eminem or ICP). Obviously the home for "true" hip-hop is in Great Britain, away from those horrible poor blacks and their gangsta rap, right? :rolleyes:

Apples and oranges.

We're not talking about discomfort with a particular sex act. I don't find the idea of two men have intercourse particularly appealing. I don't find a man and a woman having sex very appealing either. In fact, I tend to find that any sex act involving a man is something I don't wish to witness or be a part of. So I don't watch or involve myself with sex acts that involve men.

What I don't do is go around bashing men by labeling things I dislike as "male". Doing so would be uncalled for and would get me labeled as a man-hater, and rightly so. Men aren't responsible for all that is bad. Neither are homosexuals. Or people with low IQ's. Using words that describe such people to mean "bad" is implicitly bashing the group of people commonly described by those words. Saying so doesn't make a person self-righteousness.

Gilda

Quick things of note:

1. Ice-T wasn't in NWA. That was Ice Cube...and don't forget Yella and Ren.

2. As someone mentioned previously, another thread for this discussion might be more appropriate, but what the heck - I never really got the feeling that people were using the term "gay" to express simple dislike of something when I was growing up...it was more that something was unneccesarily frivolous...sort of a craptastic version of "much ado about nothing..." Hmmm.

3. In the same light, if someone you knew was trying to start a fight for no apparent reason, might you not say something along the lines of "god, drop the testerone" or "quit acting like a fucking knuckle-dragging ape man." ? I would. And that's not to say that all men are "bad," only that someone might be exhibiting traits that can stereotypically be identified with males.

4. As far as Kanye West goes, I've heard good things about him, but as mentioned there is a long history of social commentary in rap and hip hop. all the gansta-crap rap is no more representative of the entire genre than modern pop crap rock represents all rock and roll.

edit : hell, at first I forgot about Ren. There you go.

So have Dre and Ice Cube ;) .


Honestly, if you were to describe things you disliked as male, I wouldn't be offended in the least. It has nothing to do with being responsible for all the world's ills. It happens to do with your feelings about them, which are perfectly legitimate.

And the self-righteousness shows in comments like these:

Xzibit is a rapper from Detroit who has nothing to do with Eminem or the ICP. So is Kid Rock, although he crosses genres and may not be considered rap by some. Also Obie Trice, who while a friend of Eminem is not a part of D-12 and of course D-12 themselves. The 313 is sometimes referred to, which is the area code that covers some of South Detroit (and also, ironically, Grosse Pointe) as well as the 8 Mile Road, made famous in Eminem's movie (which again, ironically, ends in one of the highest class neighbourhoods in the city).

If I made factual errors, fine. I did type that up at 3 in the morning, I made the rather prominent mistake of typing Ice T instead of Ice Cube and I'm far from the biggest and best source on the subject out there. But you're assuming two things here. One is that I don't really know what I'm talking about. Music of all sorts is a primary interest of mine and rap and hip hop is quite prominent, so it behooves me to know a bit about them. You've also strongly twisted what I said. What I wrote was primarily about mainstream hip hop and public perception and how it differs from the so-called 'underground' hip hop. It has nothing to do with white vs. black except insofar as hip hop is widely considered a 'black' style of music. I'm sure we all remember Snow and Vanilla Ice, both of whom took flak for being 'white rappers', regardless of there other merits or (prominent) lack thereof.

Also, the more experimental hip hop is more prominent in the UK, or so I understand it. Perhaps some of our brit members could chime in on this, but in between I highly recommend listening to The Streets, particularly their album A Grand Don't Come For Free.

Pigglet - thanks for catching that. I was thinking Ice Cube, but Ice T is what came out. However, I intentionally left out Yella and Ren, focussing on the three who are more well known post-NWA. Yella and Ren (and Arabian Prince if you want to include him, although I think he was only on Straight Outta Compton) fell out of the spotlight after NWA broke up and bluntly put, I have no idea what either of them are up to at this point.

And if you haven't listened to Kanye West yet, definitely do yourself the favour. He's quite the refreshing change from 'thugz' like fifty cent.

And finally, on topic : I always considered the word gay as an insult to be a sign of immaturity. I know in public school and high school I encountered it a lot more than I do now and even today when I heard it said those who use it are people who might be described as immature. It's an issue of ignorance more than anything else. That doesn't make it right, but just seems to be the root of the problem.

Well put. My students tend to label anything this dislike as "gay", "retarded", or "lame", invariably accompanied by "so". As in, "This test is so gay," or "Pirates are so retarded." It behooves us to help them to understand that using the first two in that way is an implicit display of bigotry. I don't put up with that in my home or my class. It's also poor usage, which it is my job to correct anyway.

Gilda

Obie Trice would still be handing out tapes at concerts without Eminem. And Xzibit was indeed born in Detroit, but makes no mention of that in his music, and is usually aligned as a west-coast MC (and his sound is a lot more west-coast gangsta rap than Detroit).

I didn't mention the Ice T/Ice Cube thing ( I knew who you were refering to). But to me it seemed you simply grabbed two cities at random that were assumed to have large populations of poor blacks. Expecially when the music you mention as being "gangsta rap" originated primarily in LA/Compton. Also, KRS-One is one of the most conscious rappers ever, little of what he did could be considered radio friendly fluff.

There's plenty of what could be defined experimental hip-hop coming from the US. This isn't the music forum so I won't run off a list of artists, but I think that the most groundbreaking and quality hip-hop still originates in America. Maybe the more experimental stuff is more the norm there, but it's largely because hip-hop as a whole isn't as large there as it is here (and also being imported, they probably aren't as grounded in past hip-hop).

I will say I'm sorry, in hindsight I was probably a bit more vehement than was warranted. But it seemed that the intent was good, just some of the info I disagreed with and felt really didn't help adress the issue (of hip-hop being able to be quality music, and elevating above the typical radio fare). And if you would like to know some different quality US hip-hop fare, feel free to ask :).

Sorry, I'm not following your exchange, but i would like to point out that Xzibit raps with Eminem, Dr. Dre, and Snoop Dogg on "Bitch Please pt. II" off Eminem's second major studio release the Marshall Mathers LP.

Also there is not a single black member of ICP, and also they suck.

How to make a million out of pop music:

Controversy > Publicity > £$£$

___________

Much of my vast hip-hop collection has no lyrics.

I just wanna clear up one more thing Martian...Eazy-E wasn't murdered, he died of aids.

No, to talk freely about someone's hatred for all things male would have nothing to to with that person's private feelings on the issue, and everything to do with a lack of respect for those around them. Gilda's original point stands. Participation in civil society requres a certain amount of respect, a level that may or may not be difficult to muster for certain individuals.

I just thought it was funny, not meaning to sound "high browed," particularly when discussing N.W.A. I've actually always though that it was pretty funny that two of the "founders" of modern rap had such...benign and sort of cheesy names. Ice T and Ice Cube?


+
I think the issue of the relative maturity of using these terms in this way, from the first quote, is entirely accurate, but also potentially hypocritical. I'm guessing that none of us actually speaks in completely erudite fashion at all times, sounding as though we lying on sofas bantering philosophy with Plato and Friends. If this correct, then my guess is that the use of these terms is no more offensive then a myriad of terms we commonly use every day. What I find interesting is the question of whether or not we want to leave all mention of ethnicity, culture, sexual orientation, etc - outside of our euphemistic descriptive terms? Does that type of exclusion create a bigger barrier or decrease it? Not being rhetorical...I don't mean obvious, overt bigotry, or mean spirited commentary. Do we encourage or discourage discussion of our differences by kidding each other about our various social involvements and interractions, etc? I think there's something to be said for not tippy-toeing around our differences, and perhaps embracing them in "off-color" humor.

Alan Smithee - I did pick two cities at random, but not two cities with poor black populations, more two cities where rap is big. It could've just as easily have been Philly, Compton, etc. I'm not touching the who west vs. east here, there's way too much to get into. Also I'm very familiar with KRS-One and didn't intend to describe him as radio friendly, that was just poor phrasing on my part. I was referring to him hitting top 40. But yeah, no hard feelings or anything; it felt like I was being attacked and I just sort of went on the defense by reflex.

And Skettios, I know he does, but he's not affiliated with them. Collaboration in the hip hop world is about as widespread as it possibly could be, if you counted that you could probably play six degrees of seperation and argue that every major hip hop artist is affiliated with every other one ever.

The moral of this is not to post this in-depth at 3 am. The number of factual errors is up to two, assuming anyone doesn't spot any more (both, unsurprisingly, related to NWA; I never was particularly fond of them) and some poor phrasing on my part causing a lot of confusion. Tlso the massive threadjack pulling everything off topic here.

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion. Kanye West good, gay as a derogatory term bad.