This is just so freaking cool...... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pan6467 · 08-17-2005, 02:59 AM

The article pretty much speaks for itself.... but I think it's cool a guy did this painstakingly, time consuming hobby to show kids they can do anything.

He deserves any fame he gets. I am in awe of the man and speechless.... You have to see the ship... the picture of it makes the ship look awesome... hope he somehow can get it here to the states, I'd pay to go and see it.

Quote:

Man Launches Ice Cream Stick Viking Ship By TOBY STERLING, Associated Press Writer
Tue Aug 16, 6:16 PM ET

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - A former Hollywood stunt man now living in the Netherlands launched his greatest project to date Tuesday: a 45-foot replica Viking ship made of millions of wooden ice cream sticks and more than a ton of glue.

Rob McDonald named the ship the "Mjollnir" after the hammer of the mythic Norse god of thunder, Thor. After the 13 ton boat was lifted into the water by crane, "Captain Rob," as he is known, stood calmly on the stern as a team of volunteers rowed the apparently sturdy vessel around the IJ River behind the city's central station.

"I have a dream to show children they can do anything," McDonald said before the launch. "If they can dream it, they can do it."

He said he was confident the ship would float, but organizers had prepared an alternate press statement just in case something went wrong. The biggest fear was that the ship's keel might be too light and it would capsize. But the launch went smoothly, and McDonald plans to apply for a mention in the Guinness Book of Records.

McDonald set the previous record in 2003 with a smaller version of a Viking ship built from 370,000 wooden ice cream sticks, which has been approved by the Guinness Book of World Records.

McDonald, an American who lives with his Dutch wife and their son in the city of Emmeloord, had help from a host of advisers, sponsors and neighborhood children.

He estimated that in all, he used up to 2.2 tons of glue and 15 million birch wood ice cream sticks donated by an ice cream manufacturer and found by neighborhood children.

"I'm proud," said 8-year-old Kim Jaasma, one of the volunteers on hand for the launch. "I hope it works."

She said she didn't think McDonald was crazy at all.

"He's funny sometimes. He's very nice," she said.

McDonald and his son Rob Jr., 11, fixed a final ceremonial "15 millionth" ice cream stick, made of gold, shortly before the launch.

Rob Jr., sporting a Viking helmet and a wooden sword, appeared ready to go on a voyage of looting and pillaging.

The inside of the boat was reinforced with fiberglass and it can be propelled by its modern mast and sail, or oars, or a backup motor.

Afterward, the boat was moved back onto dry land and will be on display at Sail 2005, a major show for antique ships that begins in Amsterdam on Wednesday.

Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050816/...ds_viking_ship

maleficent · 08-17-2005, 03:07 AM

That is just too neat... Good for him....

Pragma · 08-17-2005, 04:46 AM

That's awesome - it's hard to believe it floats, but it shows what you can build when you put your mind to it. That's also really neat that he's using the opportunity to educate kids and show them you can do anything.

deri · 08-17-2005, 06:11 AM

That goes to show that us guys really do stay kids at heart.

shesus · 08-17-2005, 06:27 AM

That is really cool. I always love hearing that someone is still doing something to encourage out children. However, go figure that he left the US to do it. Oh well, nothing can be perfect.

Stiltzkin · 08-17-2005, 06:40 AM

If that's not eccentric, I don't know what is.
I'm not saying what he did is in any way bad.
I'm also not condemning eccentric-ness either!

BigBen · 08-17-2005, 06:53 AM

You guys should see my Popcicle-stick replica M1A1 Abrams main battle tank. The wooden hydraulic lines are a bitch to build, but the moving turret is worth it...

Seriously, good for this guy. People climb mountains that have been climbed already, they pierce things that have been pierced before. Not to thread-jack, but it is damned hard to do something original today. I can't think of anything.

ophelia783 · 08-17-2005, 06:59 AM

That's seriously awesome...
What dedication he must have!

ICER · 08-17-2005, 08:01 AM

and my friends tell me I HAVE to much time on my hands, yeesh.

but really, it is great to see someone show the kids of today that there's more to life then TV and video games

TexanAvenger · 08-17-2005, 09:19 AM

I look forward to the day kids go out and build popsicle-stick Viking ships instead of going on killing sprees in a video game. (Not that I don't think that has its place...)

Now, if this guy starts telling us he's Thor and inviting kids to his "Valhalla Ranch," I might reconsider... but he seems pretty genuine.

Lwang9276 · 08-17-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanAvenger

Now, if this guy starts telling us he's Thor and inviting kids to his "Valhalla Ranch," I might reconsider... but he seems pretty genuine.

LOL... thats too funny, but yea thats dedication for us. I can hardly do homework without being tempted by the television or comp.

mystmarimatt · 08-17-2005, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Rob Jr., sporting a Viking helmet and a wooden sword, appeared ready to go on a voyage of looting and pillaging.

Now THAT sounds like my idea of a good time. I like how that kid thinks.

This is a really cool article, thanks Pan

Fremen · 08-17-2005, 10:22 AM

Wow, a wooden boat.

Just think of all the stickless popsicles!
How are you supposed to eat them? A knife and fork???

analog · 08-17-2005, 10:55 AM

wow. someone was bored.

bettaa · 08-17-2005, 12:05 PM

that's pretty shweet....i need to eat more icecream if i wanna make me one of them ships

present_future · 08-17-2005, 12:09 PM

The ice cream bar manufacturers should use the ship as an ad/promo. "Eat 15 million of our products and get this super cool authentic viking war ship!"

raeanna74 · 08-17-2005, 12:24 PM

That sounds like so much fun. Way more fun than my past couple summers. What a creative mind. I'd like a neighbor like this guy. Cool.

Cynthetiq · 08-17-2005, 12:50 PM

a valedictorian from a high school stated their motto during his address, "If you can dream it, you can achieve it."

I've always tried to push myself through hardships via that statement.

good on him.

Misz · 08-17-2005, 03:47 PM

13 ton boat thats amazing, the RSI would suck after building that thing

JumpinJesus · 08-17-2005, 04:35 PM

When I opened the link to see the picture, I expected to see a really big dumb looking boat made out of popcicle sticks but it looks like a real boat. If I didn't know it was made out of popcicle sticks, I never would have guessed.

Seeing this reminds me of my childhood when I used to try and make those stupid balsa wood model airplanes and how my parents didn't trust me with a boxcutter so I had to use scissors and every time I tried to make one, the scissors always broke the wood. Then that damn tissue paper would get stuck over everything when I tried to glue it to a busted up looking airplane frame. After about 30 minutes of this crap, I'd get pissed off and discouraged and throw it all away, only to try again the next weekend with the same damn results.

I admire this guy for actually being able to build the whole damn thing without getting glue everywhere and breaking it.

tspikes51 · 08-17-2005, 08:13 PM

This guy kicks ass. Way to go.

analog · 08-17-2005, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

a valedictorian from a high school stated their motto during his address, "If you can dream it, you can achieve it."

I've always tried to push myself through hardships via that statement.

good on him.

The official slogan for GE was (maybe still is), "If you can dream it, you can do it."

I know this was at least as early as '82 or so, because I had a poster in my room with a bunch of robots on it with the GE logo and that slogan. My dad worked for them at the time.

I wonder if that's where he got it.

JumpinJesus · 08-17-2005, 10:00 PM

Did someone say robots?

Don't make me go and jack this thread to rant about robots.

analog · 08-18-2005, 01:03 AM

...and not to be the voice of negativity, but I just think the unpopular opinion needs some light shed on it from time to time in back-patting threads such as this.

The guy couldn't volunteer his time to do something REALLY important? A popsicle-stick ship, fucking great. People think it's cool because it's to teach kids and blah blah... how about teaching kids it's good to help out a fellow human being? Volunteer at a homeless shelter... donate time to a highway beautification project... habitat for humanity... SOMETHING...

...or use this publicity vehicle (pun intended) to get some REAL issues out there. How about "just say NO"? Something about STD's and planned parenthood? He's got this great press, and he just sits there with his thumb in his ass and talks about making dreams come true. Well you know what? Fuck that. There are literally MILLIONS of people on the planet for whom a "dream" would be "a roof over my head", or "enough to eat".

I'm not usually one to go on about charity, because I'm not big on shoveling issues on people, asking for this and that. I can also not say I put my money where my mouth is, because I don't do very much volunteering myself- but I have, and arguably a lot more than most people- but I recognize help where it is needed, and a wasted opportunity.

This was a GROSSLY wasted opportunity. I'm disappointed that his message was so shallow, so pointless. He could have done some good.

Pragma · 08-18-2005, 06:09 AM

I don't really see why it's a bad thing to use your spare time to do something utterly pointless but enjoyable. Sure, he could have done any one of the things you mentioned, volunteering, etc. - and there's no way of knowing if this guy has or hasn't done any of that (though I'll bet that wouldn't be newsworthy) - but he obviously wanted to build something fun for his kid and the kids of the area, and so he did.

Several years ago, I helped build a playground in the area where I used to live. It didn't have any kind of helpful message, I wasn't building houses for people, but it's something that kids can use to have fun - and that's important. This seems - to me at least - to be the same concept. It's so kids can have fun.

pan6467 · 08-18-2005, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

...and not to be the voice of negativity, but I just think the unpopular opinion needs some light shed on it from time to time in back-patting threads such as this.

The guy couldn't volunteer his time to do something REALLY important? A popsicle-stick ship, fucking great. People think it's cool because it's to teach kids and blah blah... how about teaching kids it's good to help out a fellow human being? Volunteer at a homeless shelter... donate time to a highway beautification project... habitat for humanity... SOMETHING...

...or use this publicity vehicle (pun intended) to get some REAL issues out there. How about "just say NO"? Something about STD's and planned parenthood? He's got this great press, and he just sits there with his thumb in his ass and talks about making dreams come true. Well you know what? Fuck that. There are literally MILLIONS of people on the planet for whom a "dream" would be "a roof over my head", or "enough to eat".

I'm not usually one to go on about charity, because I'm not big on shoveling issues on people, asking for this and that. I can also not say I put my money where my mouth is, because I don't do very much volunteering myself- but I have, and arguably a lot more than most people- but I recognize help where it is needed, and a wasted opportunity.

This was a GROSSLY wasted opportunity. I'm disappointed that his message was so shallow, so pointless. He could have done some good.

And I thought I was being cynical the past few days (divorce being final today and all).

It says he had kids help him find the sticks and volunteers to help build it with him (I'm sure many kids helped).

So in a way this did help those kids in major ways in the neighborhood:

It instilled pride of workmanship

It demonstrated teamwork

It accomplished something monumental by actually floating and working

It showed kids that they can achieve anything.....

I am in awe of this man, for his ingenuity and creativity to teach a lesson of achiving your dreams.

Could he have done something "more positive" such as build a habitat for humanity house, serve at a soup kitchen, etc.? Possibly, but the kids who worked on that boat will forever have that adventure and lesson instilled in them and they may pass on that experience by doing something with their neighborhood kids and so on and so on.....

Each of us affects the world in different ways, this was his.... allow him the dignity and acknowledgement of achieving and teaching some kids something very special.

Charlatan · 08-18-2005, 07:03 AM

He did it for the children...

Cynthetiq · 08-18-2005, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

And I thought I was being cynical the past few days (divorce being final today and all).

It says he had kids help him find the sticks and volunteers to help build it with him (I'm sure many kids helped).

So in a way this did help those kids in major ways in the neighborhood:

It instilled pride of workmanship

It demonstrated teamwork

It accomplished something monumental by actually floating and working

It showed kids that they can achieve anything.....

I am in awe of this man, for his ingenuity and creativity to teach a lesson of achiving your dreams.

Could he have done something "more positive" such as build a habitat for humanity house, serve at a soup kitchen, etc.? Possibly, but the kids who worked on that boat will forever have that adventure and lesson instilled in them and they may pass on that experience by doing something with their neighborhood kids and so on and so on.....

Each of us affects the world in different ways, this was his.... allow him the dignity and acknowledgement of achieving and teaching some kids something very special.

Very well stated, he could have easily just inspired the next humanitarians....

analog · 08-18-2005, 08:35 PM

Volunteering to help build a playground for kids is admirable. It's something they can use. After this guy is done being movie-of-the-week, no one will care about the ship- and the kids will go back to their graphic video games and television.

Sure, he may have sparked some humanitarians... but how many FAMILIES could he have helped, in the same amount of volunteer time, doing something more constructive and useful? The homeless aren't just single people, or people with no children.

You all wanna help kids so damn much? Teach them it is better to help others, than build something STUPID and USELESS and then go back to your nice home with enough food in it, and feel good about yourself for wasting time doing NOTHING OF VALUE TO SOCIETY.

If nothing else, my general dislike ("hate" is such a strong word) for children should resonate a little louder on this topic. Despite that, I want the future generations of children to realize that there are people on this planet who aren't as comfy as they are- and I don't want to hear about how hard anyone has it. Until you're living in a cardboard box in an alley, you're not worse off... and there's still someone out there who would kill for a box to live in.

(Side note, to preemptively dispel notions to the contrary- I, nor anyone I know personally, has ever been homeless. This is not personal, it's about teaching the right things.)

Marvelous Marv · 08-21-2005, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

...and not to be the voice of negativity, but I just think the unpopular opinion needs some light shed on it from time to time in back-patting threads such as this.

The guy couldn't volunteer his time to do something REALLY important? A popsicle-stick ship, fucking great. People think it's cool because it's to teach kids and blah blah... how about teaching kids it's good to help out a fellow human being? Volunteer at a homeless shelter... donate time to a highway beautification project... habitat for humanity... SOMETHING...

...or use this publicity vehicle (pun intended) to get some REAL issues out there. How about "just say NO"? Something about STD's and planned parenthood? He's got this great press, and he just sits there with his thumb in his ass and talks about making dreams come true. Well you know what? Fuck that. There are literally MILLIONS of people on the planet for whom a "dream" would be "a roof over my head", or "enough to eat".

I'm not usually one to go on about charity, because I'm not big on shoveling issues on people, asking for this and that. I can also not say I put my money where my mouth is, because I don't do very much volunteering myself- but I have, and arguably a lot more than most people- but I recognize help where it is needed, and a wasted opportunity.

This was a GROSSLY wasted opportunity. I'm disappointed that his message was so shallow, so pointless. He could have done some good.

Ummm, a point could be made that for every post on TFP, that poster could have been out "helping others." And every donation to TFP could have gone to someone less fortunate.

Blackthorn · 08-21-2005, 09:02 AM

It's always the case that someone who chooses to create something from nothing likely could have spent their time more constructively. They could have applied their talents and energy providing some measure of charitable support to your cause of choice. If that were the case then we should probably all look down upon artists such as Michaelangelo and Picasso. They wasted a lot of time ...

I think this is an amazing feet of artistic ice cream stick engineering.

Quote:

American Rob McDonald, right, now a resident of the Netherlands, stand on the stern of a ship he built from wooden ice cream sticks at the launch of the replica Viking ship in Amsterdam harbor, Netherlands, Tuesday Aug. 16, 2005. McDonald estimates he used 15 million birch wood ice cream sticks to build the 'Mjollnir',

Zeraph · 08-21-2005, 10:34 AM

Ice cream cool.

08-17-2005, 03:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	That is just too neat... Good for him.... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

08-17-2005, 04:46 AM	#3 (permalink)
Pragma I am Winter Born Location: Alexandria, VA	That's awesome - it's hard to believe it floats, but it shows what you can build when you put your mind to it. That's also really neat that he's using the opportunity to educate kids and show them you can do anything. __________________ Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

08-17-2005, 06:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
shesus Fancy Location: Chicago	That is really cool. I always love hearing that someone is still doing something to encourage out children. However, go figure that he left the US to do it. Oh well, nothing can be perfect. __________________ Whatever did happen to your soul? I heard you sold it Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

08-17-2005, 06:53 AM	#7 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	You guys should see my Popcicle-stick replica M1A1 Abrams main battle tank. The wooden hydraulic lines are a bitch to build, but the moving turret is worth it... Seriously, good for this guy. People climb mountains that have been climbed already, they pierce things that have been pierced before. Not to thread-jack, but it is damned hard to do something original today. I can't think of anything. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

08-17-2005, 06:59 AM	#8 (permalink)
ophelia783 Insane Location: West Virginia	That's seriously awesome... What dedication he must have! __________________ ~~ He with a sharp tongue slits his own throat ~~

08-17-2005, 06:11 AM	#4 (permalink)
deri Tilted	That goes to show that us guys really do stay kids at heart.

08-17-2005, 06:40 AM	#6 (permalink)
Stiltzkin Junkie	If that's not eccentric, I don't know what is. I'm not saying what he did is in any way bad. I'm also not condemning eccentric-ness either!

08-17-2005, 08:01 AM	#9 (permalink)
ICER Chilled to Perfection Location: Dallas, TX	and my friends tell me I HAVE to much time on my hands, yeesh. but really, it is great to see someone show the kids of today that there's more to life then TV and video games __________________ What's the difference between congress and a penitentiary? One is filled with tax evaders, blackmailers and threats to society. The other is for housing prisoners. ~~David Letterman

08-17-2005, 09:19 AM	#10 (permalink)
TexanAvenger Born-Again New Guy Location: Unfound.	I look forward to the day kids go out and build popsicle-stick Viking ships instead of going on killing sprees in a video game. (Not that I don't think that has its place...) Now, if this guy starts telling us he's Thor and inviting kids to his "Valhalla Ranch," I might reconsider... but he seems pretty genuine.

08-17-2005, 10:22 AM	#13 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	Wow, a wooden boat. Just think of all the stickless popsicles! How are you supposed to eat them? A knife and fork??? __________________ Google

08-17-2005, 10:55 AM	#14 (permalink)
analog Banned	wow. someone was bored.

08-17-2005, 12:05 PM	#15 (permalink)
bettaa Tilted Location: In my room upstairs in my parent's house :-(	that's pretty shweet....i need to eat more icecream if i wanna make me one of them ships

08-17-2005, 12:09 PM	#16 (permalink)
present_future Take my hand Location: Everywhere, but nowhere	The ice cream bar manufacturers should use the ship as an ad/promo. "Eat 15 million of our products and get this super cool authentic viking war ship!" __________________ The only thing I'll ever ask of you... you gotta promise not to stop when I say when.

08-17-2005, 12:24 PM	#17 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	That sounds like so much fun. Way more fun than my past couple summers. What a creative mind. I'd like a neighbor like this guy. Cool. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

08-17-2005, 12:50 PM	#18 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	a valedictorian from a high school stated their motto during his address, "If you can dream it, you can achieve it." I've always tried to push myself through hardships via that statement. good on him. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

08-17-2005, 03:47 PM	#19 (permalink)
Misz Tilted	13 ton boat thats amazing, the RSI would suck after building that thing

08-17-2005, 04:35 PM	#20 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	When I opened the link to see the picture, I expected to see a really big dumb looking boat made out of popcicle sticks but it looks like a real boat. If I didn't know it was made out of popcicle sticks, I never would have guessed. Seeing this reminds me of my childhood when I used to try and make those stupid balsa wood model airplanes and how my parents didn't trust me with a boxcutter so I had to use scissors and every time I tried to make one, the scissors always broke the wood. Then that damn tissue paper would get stuck over everything when I tried to glue it to a busted up looking airplane frame. After about 30 minutes of this crap, I'd get pissed off and discouraged and throw it all away, only to try again the next weekend with the same damn results. I admire this guy for actually being able to build the whole damn thing without getting glue everywhere and breaking it. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

08-17-2005, 08:13 PM	#21 (permalink)
tspikes51 Fuckin' A Location: Lex Vegas	This guy kicks ass. Way to go. __________________ "I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million." -Maddox

08-17-2005, 10:00 PM	#23 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	Did someone say robots? Don't make me go and jack this thread to rant about robots. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

08-18-2005, 01:03 AM	#24 (permalink)
analog Banned	...and not to be the voice of negativity, but I just think the unpopular opinion needs some light shed on it from time to time in back-patting threads such as this. The guy couldn't volunteer his time to do something REALLY important? A popsicle-stick ship, fucking great. People think it's cool because it's to teach kids and blah blah... how about teaching kids it's good to help out a fellow human being? Volunteer at a homeless shelter... donate time to a highway beautification project... habitat for humanity... SOMETHING... ...or use this publicity vehicle (pun intended) to get some REAL issues out there. How about "just say NO"? Something about STD's and planned parenthood? He's got this great press, and he just sits there with his thumb in his ass and talks about making dreams come true. Well you know what? Fuck that. There are literally MILLIONS of people on the planet for whom a "dream" would be "a roof over my head", or "enough to eat". I'm not usually one to go on about charity, because I'm not big on shoveling issues on people, asking for this and that. I can also not say I put my money where my mouth is, because I don't do very much volunteering myself- but I have, and arguably a lot more than most people- but I recognize help where it is needed, and a wasted opportunity. This was a GROSSLY wasted opportunity. I'm disappointed that his message was so shallow, so pointless. He could have done some good.

08-18-2005, 06:09 AM	#25 (permalink)
Pragma I am Winter Born Location: Alexandria, VA	I don't really see why it's a bad thing to use your spare time to do something utterly pointless but enjoyable. Sure, he could have done any one of the things you mentioned, volunteering, etc. - and there's no way of knowing if this guy has or hasn't done any of that (though I'll bet that wouldn't be newsworthy) - but he obviously wanted to build something fun for his kid and the kids of the area, and so he did. Several years ago, I helped build a playground in the area where I used to live. It didn't have any kind of helpful message, I wasn't building houses for people, but it's something that kids can use to have fun - and that's important. This seems - to me at least - to be the same concept. It's so kids can have fun. __________________ Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

08-18-2005, 07:03 AM	#27 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	He did it for the children... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

08-18-2005, 08:35 PM	#29 (permalink)
analog Banned	Volunteering to help build a playground for kids is admirable. It's something they can use. After this guy is done being movie-of-the-week, no one will care about the ship- and the kids will go back to their graphic video games and television. Sure, he may have sparked some humanitarians... but how many FAMILIES could he have helped, in the same amount of volunteer time, doing something more constructive and useful? The homeless aren't just single people, or people with no children. You all wanna help kids so damn much? Teach them it is better to help others, than build something STUPID and USELESS and then go back to your nice home with enough food in it, and feel good about yourself for wasting time doing NOTHING OF VALUE TO SOCIETY. If nothing else, my general dislike ("hate" is such a strong word) for children should resonate a little louder on this topic. Despite that, I want the future generations of children to realize that there are people on this planet who aren't as comfy as they are- and I don't want to hear about how hard anyone has it. Until you're living in a cardboard box in an alley, you're not worse off... and there's still someone out there who would kill for a box to live in. (Side note, to preemptively dispel notions to the contrary- I, nor anyone I know personally, has ever been homeless. This is not personal, it's about teaching the right things.)

08-21-2005, 10:34 AM	#32 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Ice cream cool.