Fred Phelps and his latest messages of hate - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Bill O'Rights · 08-11-2005, 12:37 PM

I appologize, in advance, for the length of these articles. Normally I try to pare them down, for inclusion on these boards, and provide a link for those that want more "dinner" with thier "meat". This time, however, I found that every word held just as much import as the last.

Lincoln Journal Star

Quote:

OMAHA — There were flags. Across the street from St. Bridget Catholic Church, flags hung from protesters: drooping, dirty, dragging on the ground. A forlorn backdrop to the protesters' signs, which read, among other things, "God hates the U.S.A.," "God hates soldiers" and "Thank God for IEDs."

About 10 protesters stood on the sidewalk across from the church where the funeral for Staff Sgt. Tricia Jameson, 34, of Omaha was about to be held. The Nebraska Army National Guard medic, a member of the 313th Medical Company of Lincoln, died in a Humvee ambulance on July 14 as she rushed to the aid of three Marines wounded in an attack on their convoy in western Iraq. She was killed by an improvised explosive device, or IED, less than three weeks after arriving in Iraq.

The sunburned protesters were members of a radical Topeka, Kan., church led by anti-gay crusader Fred Phelps. They have protested at everything from schools to churches across the country, spreading their belief that America is damned because of its tolerance of homosexuals. They're taking their signs to soldiers' funerals, claiming their church was bombed by an IED 10 years ago, and that God is retaliating by killing American soldiers with IEDs in Iraq.

But there were other flags, too.

Such as the one that emerged from a silver hearse, solemnly draped over the coffin of Jameson. Her family exited a limousine and read the signs across the street. Their disgust was palpable, but they maintained their composure.

Did the protesters not understand, some asked one another, that Jameson died defending their right to hold those signs?

Dozens of soldiers in green uniforms — many of whom had worked with Jameson — lined the sidewalk, silently staring at the signs.

The irony was not lost on Maj. Gen. Roger Lempke, Nebraska's adjutant general. He's seen protests before, but nothing like this.

"It always reminds me of how there are difficulties in living in a free society," he said. "That's one of the things we put up with to live in a free society."

The scene was more than Jameson's mother, Pat Marsh, could take. The petite blonde woman crossed the street and asked the protesters to leave, out of respect. The protesters said it's not about her daughter; it's about America.

But today was about her daughter, Marsh said, the girl who never gave her any trouble, from day one — "Like you were given an angel." The girl who didn't tell Mom she'd volunteered for duty in Iraq.

Jameson, the happy, gung-ho soldier everybody described as a caretaker, died trying to help a fallen soldier, the priest said. She was proud that she was a soldier who helped the injured. She'd trained and trained others for years, but this was her first foray into combat.

Her greatest fear, her mother said, was that she would forget everything she'd learned during training and not be able to save someone. She never got that chance; her mother said 30 pounds of metal tore through the back of her head.

Her death, Rev. Adams said, was caused by "hate and fanaticism."

Never let it be said that I do not give equal time to the hate mongers...

God Hates Fags

Quote:

OMAHA, NE EPIC – July 23, 2005
Cast of Characters (a/k/a Tachmonites): Gran; Megan; Zach; Grace; Gabriel; Jonah; Noah; Theresa; Lauren; Shirl; Ben; Mara; Seth; Anna; Fred, Jr. and Betty (scribe).

Introduction: The Lord sent his servants rising early and speaking to the inhabitants of Omaha, Nebraska on July 23, 2005 to warn them to turn from their evil doings and to not worship other gods and to not provoke the Lord to anger. (Jeremiah 25). The occasion was the funeral of Staff Sgt. Tricia L. Jameson, killed by an Improvised Explosive Device (IED) on July 14, 2005.

Contradictory Cops: Upon arrival at the host Catholic Church in Omaha, we were met by contradictory and contentious cops. We were told not to stand on the sidewalk by the church because it was private property, so we went across the street only to be met by a man with a large commercial mower who found it necessary to blow as much debris upon us as possible. We were told by the first cop if we stepped onto the grass we’d be arrested. Another corpulent cop came up later and said we needed to move off of the sidewalk into the grass so the contract mower-in-residence could weed-eat along the sidewalk. When we obeyed that directive from Sir Corpulent, Mr. Mower ran across the street crying to yet another cop (we’ll call him Cop #3) who had just pulled up. Cop #3 promptly strutted over to us, and announced we must return to the sidewalk. When Shirl began explaining the contradicting directives we were receiving from law enforcement, Cop #3 got his pad out, demanding her personal identification information and otherwise strongly implying her arrest was imminent. With some carefully crafted words and Lauren running the camcorder on him, he finally got off of that.

All the while this cop chicanery was going on our signs were high in the air. “Fag Church”, “Don’t Worship the Dead”, “God Hates Fags”, “God Hates Fag Enablers”, “Thank God for IEDs”, “America is Doomed”, “Thank God for 9-11”, etc. and 3 flags dragging on the ground was the sight that met those attending, as well as the media covering, this event.

Myopic Media: A representative from the Lincoln, Nebraska paper, the major Omaha newspaper, National Public Radio, an Associated Press photographer and TV cameras were all there to help publish our message. Several of us were interviewed and had good words to say such as “if God can bless America, he can also curse America.” Also, “the worst thing you can do is to harass the Lord’s servants. An IED was set off at our church and now the Lord is using this same tool to punish this country.” Also, “your children are being dashed to pieces.” (Psalm 2:9; Isaiah 13:16-18). We told them this is not about just this one solider, this is about a nation that has spit in the face of God and is now facing the terror of the Lord. We also said this funeral was being used to promote the military and the war, so we’re also using this as a platform to get our message out. And so on.

Massive Military: While these interviews were going on, good words were also flowing to those standing outside the church, both civilian and military. “Do you think you can turn this country over to the fags and not pay the price for it?” “God blew up this body and now you’re taking it into a church with a pedophile priest!” We were called “scum” and told to shut up over and over. Gran answered wisely with “this does not change anything, God still hates fags and fag enablers and the truth is, you don’t want us here, you want us to leave.” We were told to give the family some peace. Shirl responded: “You’re never going to have peace.” (Isaiah 57:21).

Judging from the many varying uniforms we saw, it was apparent that virtually every branch of the United States military was represented at this funeral. The services were nothing more than a showcase for the military. A public spectacle, if you will. It occurred to us that the military is good at pomp and circumstance, but sorely lacking in any answers as to what is really happening and why it’s happening. The mother of the deceased seemed in her own way to confirm this was nothing more than a vain glory military show, when she approached us sadly and announced she hated the war as much as we do (actually we don’t hate it as we see the hand of God in it), but, said she, this just wasn’t the time and place for our demonstration. In reality, though, it was just the place and just the time for us to appear.

Conclusion: It was a privilege to be a part of this venture. Everyone kept rank and aided in getting our message out. The Lord protected us as evidenced by our safe departure. When we walked to our vehicles a man with a KC Chiefs cap and big belly was trying to block the sidewalk and give us grief. In fact, that man was stalking us (we cleverly nick-named him “the stalker”) and had been for some time. Several shabbily-clad guys on motorcycles, who had passed our picket site just moments before, were also waiting for us at our van to cause us trouble. After we quickly loaded up the van in the near 100 degree heat we heard some loud shouting and cursing behind us. It turned out those cyclists thought the other man was one of us. So, instead of turning their vile intentions against us, the Easy Rider wannabes turned their attention to the stalker and we slipped away without incident. We are very thankful for this help from God. (Psalm 108:12, 13).

I feel like I need to shower.

First, for those that do not know, an IED is a Improvised Explosive Device.

Now...for the discussion part:
I know of very few (in fact...I really know of none) Christians that embrace, nor even condone, the Rev. Phelps' idealogy. I would call Phelps an...extremist. Why then, do we assume that because some Muslim extremists step out of the bounds (to put it lightly) of human acceptability, are we so quick to catagorize them as representative of the entire islamic faith?

thesupermikey · 08-11-2005, 12:58 PM

It seems that the only people who characterize all Moslems as extremists are the people who 1) no nothing about Islam 2) hate Moslems because they are different 3) are extremists themselves.

I often times here people ask why don’t normal Moslems denounce the extremists in the faith to which respond "why don’t denounce extremist Christians" Rarely are the ever able to respond.

This is just another one of those dumb head-up-our-ass sort of problems that Americans we are going to have to come to terms with

Ustwo · 08-11-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Now...for the discussion part:
I know of very few (in fact...I really know of none) Christians that embrace, nor even condone, the Rev. Phelps' idealogy. I would call Phelps an...extremist. Why then, do we assume that because some Muslim extremists step out of the bounds (to put it lightly) of human acceptability, are we so quick to catagorize them as representative of the entire islamic faith?

You do recall the dancing in the streets of Egypt and with the Palistinians after 9/11?

Case rested.

Edit:I would like to add this gem http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=93173

mystmarimatt · 08-11-2005, 01:33 PM

The wonderful thing about the WBC, I think, I just how effectively it acts as its own measure of self-preservation.

It's not a group that is growing, and gaining members, or, wasn't, the last time I read about them. Really, they're a group of 200 individuals or so, the majority of whom are just extended parts of the Phelps family, who live on a closed compound. And they'll probably just die out once Fred bites the dust. I take a lot of comfort in that, and it just allows me to giggle at everything they do.

As far as the Moslem question is concerned, I really can't help but think it's a matter of perception. If we keep pushing these ideas and this imagery of the Bedouin savage devil, of us vs. them, it's easy to see how we'll keep believing that misconception.

I have several friends who are Moslem, it really shocks me to learn that when I go over to their house, they aren't in a constant state of planning to blow up a bus or a building. I thought that was what they all did.

/sarcasm ended

Elphaba · 08-11-2005, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesupermikey

I often times here people ask why don’t normal Moslems denounce the extremists in the faith to which respond "why don’t denounce extremist Christians" Rarely are the ever able to respond.

You raise an excellent point and I believe it adds to the discussion that Bill has introduced. I know a number of fundamentalist christians that believe that homosexuals are an abomination in the eyes of God. ("The bible tells me so"

) Even though they have this belief, why would anyone claiming to be a christian not speak out about Phelps' hate speech and harassment?

I don't have an answer to my own question. I would like to believe that he is so small and unimportant that he isn't worthy of the attention of the mainstream christianity groups, whatever their view on homosexuality may be.

Journeyman · 08-11-2005, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

You do recall the dancing in the streets of Egypt and with the Palistinians after 9/11?

Case rested.http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=93173

What does that have to do with John Q. Muslim-American living (not literally, I actually dunno any in this town) right across the street? Or even the muslims in Egypt and Palestine who curse the fanaticals for giving them a bad name?

You rest your case on very weak grounds.

Gilda · 08-11-2005, 03:11 PM

Phelps isn't the only one who promotes this kind of nonsense. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell were quick to blame the 9/11 attacks on liberals, gays, and feminists, saying that we "probably deserve" what happened:

Quote:

Falwell said, "What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact, God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."
Robertson replied, "Well, Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror, we haven't begun to see what they can do to the major population."
Falwell said, "The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this. And I know I'll hear from them for this, but throwing God...successfully with the help of the federal court system...throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad...I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America...I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen."

It isn't Muslims they're targeting and blaming, it's anyone who doesn't think exactly like they do.

The day following the 9/11 attacks, a Sikh man was murdered not far from here by a couple of lowlifes who beat him to death when he stopped to fill up his car with gas. There were actually people defending these dimwits on the basis of thier anger, if misplaced, was justified.

Accepting blame is difficult. Blaming others is easy, especially when the others are Other, people not like me in some way. I can understand why some mainstream Muslims are reluctant to denounce the extremists, especially when they're faced with being accused of things for which they're not responsible simply on the basis on their religion and national origin.

It's easier to denounce your enemy than it is your brother, and sometimes very difficult to recognize that your brother is your enemy.

Gilda

martinguerre · 08-11-2005, 04:10 PM

i think there are two parallel points to made here.

first, there is a pretty strong stance against Fred by Christian communities. Silence. Take a look at who he protests....go on to his site if you can bear it, and look at the protest plans. They'll be 99% churches or other religious institutions. And the collective experience that has been had among the churches targeted is that ignoring him is the best response. He's an attention whore, and lives for conflict. Give it to him, and he'll grow off that energy. As a queer advocate, I know where my real fights are, and this is not one of them. I think Robertson and Falwell are worth engaging. Phelps is not. Whether it's pathological or simply intractable, his stance in this matter does not bear any mark of reason.

second. it's interesting that this is a point where mainstream press and culture happens to find Phelps problematic. he's been at this for years...and it was churches, funerals, schools, libraries, denominational assemblies, a whole range of cultural and religious functions. i think it's somewhat ironic that some people who didn't really mind him before when he was protesting other people now find him so objectionable.

Psycho Dad · 08-11-2005, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I know of very few (in fact...I really know of none) Christians that embrace, nor even condone, the Rev. Phelps' idealogy. I would call Phelps an...extremist. Why then, do we assume that because some Muslim extremists step out of the bounds (to put it lightly) of human acceptability, are we so quick to catagorize them as representative of the entire islamic faith?

Borrowed from another forum:

Quote:

In 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim.

In 1972 at the Munich Olympics athletes were slaughtered by Muslims.

The '79 Iranian embassy fun was committed by Muslims.

The Beirut US Marine barracks were bombed in 1983 by Muslims.

A 70 year old man in a wheelchair was thrown from the hijacked Achille Lauro cruise ship in 1985 by Muslims.

TWA flight 847 was hijacked by Muslims in 1985. A US serviceman died in an attempted rescue.

Pan Am Flight 103 (1988) was blown up by Muslims.

The 1993 World Trade Center bombing was done by Muslims.

The US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslims in 1998.

9/11/2001 was committed by Muslims.

The Beslan school massacre was carried out by Muslims.

Muslims perpetrated the 7/7 bombings in England.

Perhaps those things tend to stand out a little more than the piss poor examples that these "Christians" are setting for their "religion".

Ustwo · 08-11-2005, 04:55 PM

I'm not going to say much more until this thread is moved to politics where it belongs, but.... Islam may well be a wonderful and peaceful religion at its core, but Islamic culture is uncompromising and dangerous to all who do not adhere to its ways.

It is the culture they have created for themselves which makes children into human bombs, and murder of innocents heroic, that we fight.

Elphaba · 08-11-2005, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Now...for the discussion part:
I know of very few (in fact...I really know of none) Christians that embrace, nor even condone, the Rev. Phelps' idealogy. I would call Phelps an...extremist. Why then, do we assume that because some Muslim extremists step out of the bounds (to put it lightly) of human acceptability, are we so quick to catagorize them as representative of the entire islamic faith?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I'm not going to say much more until this thread is moved to politics where it belongs, but.... Islam may well be a wonderful and peaceful religion at its core, but Islamic culture is uncompromising and dangerous to all who do not adhere to its ways.

It is the culture they have created for themselves which makes children into human bombs, and murder of innocents heroic, that we fight.

I think Bill would have chosen Politics for this discussion if he had been trying to elicit your type of response. Ustwo, you are the one trying to change the venue with heated rhetoric. Why not give a thoughtful and respectful response to Bill's discussion point?

thesupermikey · 08-11-2005, 06:15 PM

Ustwo and Psycho Dad:

You are looking at Islam as if all it was was a big group of waiting terrorists. Keep in mind that the Muslim world has been ruled by colonial powers and dictators for the entire duration of the modern times. These people have been repressed for decades. I'm not downplaying the violence that was been a hallmark of a slice of Islamic life for the last 25 years. Place a group of christens in a repressed controlling society long enough and there will be violence. Good examples of this can be found in the American Revolution the French Revolution and the American Civil War.

I would like you to spend some time in Palestine. You will quickly realize that these people are little different than we are. It is a diverse and and colorful culture. not the mention middle eastern food is damned good.

Blackthorn · 08-11-2005, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesupermikey

....

not the mention middle eastern food is damned good.

UUUUGH...I just spent some quality time in India and I mean no disrespect to my curry eating friends but the food was not good.

They even set me up with something akin to "Mulligatawny" and I literally felt like I had just attempted to ingest hydrochloric acid. Maaaaaaan oh man was that hot...

Tandori this, curry that, and the hawt damn Mulligatawny....arrrgh!!

And okay okay ... India may be middle east near as opposed to middle east but I flew over Tehran to get there so

Psycho Dad · 08-11-2005, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesupermikey

Ustwo and Psycho Dad:

You are looking at Islam as if all it was was a big group of waiting terrorists. Keep in mind that the Muslim world has been ruled by colonial powers and dictators for the entire duration of the modern times. These people have been repressed for decades. I'm not downplaying the violence that was been a hallmark of a slice of Islamic life for the last 25 years. Place a group of christens in a repressed controlling society long enough and there will be violence. Good examples of this can be found in the American Revolution the French Revolution and the American Civil War.

I would like you to spend some time in Palestine. You will quickly realize that these people are little different than we are. It is a diverse and and colorful culture. not the mention middle eastern food is damned good.

No I’m looking at it as a religion that everyone says is all about peace and love but I’ve not seen any Muslims battling Sally Struthers for TV time to feed the children. And it is fine with me if they want to practice this “loving and peaceful religion” without killing infidels. Because apparently from what it looks like, infidels are anyone who is not Muslim.

And the same song everyone wants to sing when this subject comes up in most forums is “you don’t understand Islam”. Why should I feel obligated to “understand” something I see as nothing more than superstition? I think that the majority of the support that non-Muslims want to show for Islam stems from this need to be politically correct that everyone thinks is required. I just can’t get on that bandwagon.

If these loving and peaceful people wish to break free from their repression, why do they not wage jihad against the governments and dictatorships that oppress them? Blowing up busses with a bomb strapped to a girl will not get them free from that oppression. Flying planes into buildings packed with civilians won’t do it either.

JumpinJesus · 08-11-2005, 08:36 PM

Quote:

I know of very few (in fact...I really know of none) Christians that embrace, nor even condone, the Rev. Phelps' idealogy. I would call Phelps an...extremist. Why then, do we assume that because some Muslim extremists step out of the bounds (to put it lightly) of human acceptability, are we so quick to catagorize them as representative of the entire islamic faith?

This may be a rather simplistic answer, but I think it has something to do with why we put all our socks in the same drawer. It's convenient and alleviates us from having to look for them.

We categorize things to make our lives easier. The kind of thinking that dictates all Muslims are kooky bombers allows us to justify our fears and takes all the work out of having to look at life's little complexities.

I have a friend who DJs at a college radio station here and he is Muslim. The music played on his show is 80s techno/industrial/goth/europop.

Don't you find it zany that a Muslim likes this kind of music and plays it on the radio? He even speaks English! He also likes the Cubs!

We went out one night and I kept thinking the whole time we were out, "why isn't he at home making a bomb and hating me 'cause I'm an infidel? He is a Muslim, after all, and that's what Muslims do is make bombs and hate infidels."

Sorry for the flippant response, but I find people who are unwilling to understand or acknowledge that there are Muslims in this world who aren't terrorists to be a little silly, thus the flippancy of my answer.

analog · 08-11-2005, 08:37 PM

How about everyone just gets back on the topic at hand, which is NOT about muslim extremists, and NOT about who killed who, when, and what religion they were.

pattycakes · 08-12-2005, 03:46 AM

i dont believe what they did but i believe in their rights to do it

Psycho Dad · 08-12-2005, 04:14 AM

After rereading my last post, I can see where it may look like I paint all Muslims with the same brush. But I don't (I just did with that post). What I was pointing out is how it seems to be common to jump to a politically correct defense of Islam every time such a subject comes up.

And I'll wager that the techno loving Cubs fan wouldn't stand any more chance in many Muslim circles than I would with a beer and a ham sandwich or a Muslim woman in a skirt and her face exposed would.

Amnesia620 · 08-12-2005, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

I think Bill would have chosen Politics for this discussion if he had been trying to elicit your type of response. Ustwo, you are the one trying to change the venue with heated rhetoric. Why not give a thoughtful and respectful response to Bill's discussion point?

Elphaba, well F ' ing said!! I apologize for the arrangement of the first sentence, however, it's emphasis is my goal and it works as a true, and fair, attention-getter. You're post was tempered, direct and well-versed. It's posts like yours that remind me that peace can be acheived if we all would just read carefully, take a deep breath (or two!) before beginning our responses, and tempered our responses evenly with respect and a clear head for every person involved.

I think you and I, Elphaba, could have some very excellent discussions/debates. Thank you for handling that really, really well. It's one hell of an example - one that I think many on TFP and everywhere else, should consider following!

Have a great day.

P.S. Elphaba, your quote is one I personally refer to on Myspace.com (slight mod.) "Something Wiccan This Way Comes"; regardless, it's remained on of my ultimately favorite movies throughout my life. I apologize for the PS being off-topic, but I felt it was worth a taking a moment to mention.

alansmithee · 08-12-2005, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

I think Bill would have chosen Politics for this discussion if he had been trying to elicit your type of response. Ustwo, you are the one trying to change the venue with heated rhetoric. Why not give a thoughtful and respectful response to Bill's discussion point?

His responses were both thoughtful and respectful. Just because you disagree doesn't mean that they aren't proper responses. The original question was essentially why do muslim extremists colour everyone's view of the religion as a whole and christian extremists don't colour christianity as a whole. Ustwo was demonstrating that muslim extremists aren't "extreme", that they are much more mainstream in the muslim religion than similar christian extremists are in christianity. And I assume the reason that he suggested this be moved to politics is because this very argument has been carried out there in various forms hundreads of times. Honestly, the question asked seems to have little to do with the articles posted.

Ustwo · 08-12-2005, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

His responses were both thoughtful and respectful. Just because you disagree doesn't mean that they aren't proper responses. The original question was essentially why do muslim extremists colour everyone's view of the religion as a whole and christian extremists don't colour christianity as a whole. Ustwo was demonstrating that muslim extremists aren't "extreme", that they are much more mainstream in the muslim religion than similar christian extremists are in christianity. And I assume the reason that he suggested this be moved to politics is because this very argument has been carried out there in various forms hundreads of times. Honestly, the question asked seems to have little to do with the articles posted.

Thanks, I get sick of defending myself from people who can't grasp that others have a different point of view

Sweetpea · 08-12-2005, 03:22 PM

big sigh............

The only thing that will get this world a little farther than it's endless bickering is TOLERANCE.

It all starts with FEAR... then comes the BLAME on the scapegoat, it's an old story, but new tricks of hate.

Sweetpea

Fourtyrulz · 08-12-2005, 04:32 PM

I definitely do not posess the self restraint showed by members of the soldiers family, kudos to them for not caving and giving the picketers what they truly deserve.

tenchi069 · 08-12-2005, 09:09 PM

People that are so extreme that they have to either kill or plaud the deaths of others are to be despised. No matter if the "banner" they hide behind be called Islam, Christianity, "Anti-Gay Coalition," or the [insert any extremist non-compassionate government].
Whether I agree with why our troops are in Iraq or not, I support them for doing their job. Period.
When someone loses their life it is a tradgedy. Period.
If you don't agree with my views, that is your right. You can take my pity with you for not caring about people.

Very few things will rile me. Disregard for human life, and disregard for the law are two that definitely will.

Having said that, I don't agree with the protestors, but I support their right to voice their opinion.

peace.

tenchi

JumpinJesus · 08-12-2005, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

After rereading my last post, I can see where it may look like I paint all Muslims with the same brush. But I don't (I just did with that post). What I was pointing out is how it seems to be common to jump to a politically correct defense of Islam every time such a subject comes up.

And I'll wager that the techno loving Cubs fan wouldn't stand any more chance in many Muslim circles than I would with a beer and a ham sandwich or a Muslim woman in a skirt and her face exposed would.

This kind of comment defeats the whole purpose of attempting to not paint with the same brush. You seem to acknowledge that your post gave a particular impression, then immediately use the same brush again. Adding the disclaimer "most" doesn't detract from the general idea that you are seemingly putting across, that muslims are just plain intolerant, even to other muslims.

crxforum · 08-13-2005, 12:08 AM

Those guys like to quote scripture a lot. What about one of the 10 major passages. Do unto other as you would have them do unto you? I highly doubt that they would like to have a whack of military guys at their funeral or a family members funeral with signs that said "Hate begits hate" "Rasism is Wrong" "Ignorance is the key to evil" or something like that. I bet they would be pissed off. Then when questioned about it the military guys could just say "We are not protesting or anything against the dead person. We are protesting against other protesters protesting at inappropriate places" or something stupid like that.

CRX Forum

Astrocloud · 08-13-2005, 07:28 AM

All I know is that their Church is very brave in other communities. They travel across the country to make a spectacle in front of people that they don't know. What is the reason they don't do this in Kansas? Is it because the 'protesters' might actually have to live among the people they are protesting?

They came here -not to long ago. There were counter protests of another church -litererally standing with their backs to them.

Craven Morehead · 08-13-2005, 08:45 AM

They picketed the funeral of a fallen American serviceman a couple of weeks ago where I live. Signs saying the God Hates America. Directly across the road from the cemetary where grave site rites were being conducted.

There are few more sacred events in this country than the funeral of a serviceman killed in combat and for these bigoted idiots to use that as a platform to advertise their hatred for homosexuals is beyond belief. Grief stricken parents and family trying to deal with the death of their 21 year old son. And these assholes within eyesight walking around with huge colorful signs. I think if I were there I would have spent the night in jail.

meembo · 08-13-2005, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrocloud

All I know is that their Church is very brave in other communities. They travel across the country to make a spectacle in front of people that they don't know. What is the reason they don't do this in Kansas? Is it because the 'protesters' might actually have to live among the people they are protesting?

I used to live in Kansas a few years ago, and every time I would visit Lawrence I saw these people with their kids on streetcorners screaming about AIDS and fags and every other kind of obscenity their free speech rights afforded them.

I was really affected by seeing their kids (6 and 7 year olds) at these protests. What pathetic families. With that level of self-righteousness and hate in the family, I can't imagine that those kids could ever have a peaceful life outside of their church.

MSD · 08-13-2005, 03:02 PM

Phelps is a nutcase. He uses extremist rhetoric to anger people. After encountering enough mobs of angry people who are angry solely because of his hate, one will eventually throw a punch. This punch will be caught on tape by the half of Phelps' cronies who have video cameras rolling for the sole purpose of catching an attack. Phelps then sues for discrimination or something along those lines, and gets money to spend on future hate demonstrations (I'd like to think that he spends some of it on beer and hookers, but that may just be my love fore ironic justice surfacing.)

It's also worthwhile to note that out of less than 300 people in his congregation, over 90% are in some way related to him.

Spanky Johnson · 08-15-2005, 06:23 PM

If God hates anybody, it's these fucking assholes.

They did a protest in my community a while back...I heard about it in advance and wrote them this e-mail, followed by the response back from them.

Quote:

----- Original Message -----
From: XXXXXXXX
To: ghf@godhatesamerica.com
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:55 PM
Subject: Bentonville protest

I can assure you that your bigotry is not welcome here in Bentonville, Arkansas -- but by all means, come and attempt to spread your hate. As the late Supreme Court justice Louis Brandeis (yes, I know, he's burning in hell, blah, blah) famously said: "Sunlight is the best disinfectant".

Quote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Margie Phelps
To: XXXXXXXX
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 4:02 AM
Subject: Your e-mail to www.godhatesamerica.com

Hello Stupid XXXXXXXX.

Thank you for writing www.godhateamerica.com. Also read all of www.godhatesfags.com, www.godhatessweden.com, www.hatemongers.com and www.smellthebrimstone.com.

Your e-mail makes me wonder: what vile sin are you embroiled in that caused you to lumber across the room to your grubby computer and peck out your hate mail to us about our trip to Arkansas today? (That’s rhetorical; we don’t want to know the detail of your filthy sin; keep it to yourself; better yet, just stop it.)

Funny you should mention light. After you rise mid-morning (at the earliest) today, get a Bible out and carefully read all of John 3 (not just one half of verse 16). There you’ll learn that the unbelievers hate light and love darkness. Then thumb through your heretofore untouched Bible and read John 12, Romans 11 and 2 Corinthians 4. Then get a concordance out and find and read all the verses about light and darkness. Here’s the point simpleton: Darkness and light cannot co-exist; our signs have the effect of shining a painful bright light into the recesses of the dark souls of every individual in this Godforsaken world, including this evil society called America. You can’t turn that light off no matter how hard you try. And that light has one of two effects on every heart – they love it and bask in it, or they hate it and scuttle across the room in fury looking for darkness to hide in. You fall into the second category by all appearances.

We don’t care how it lands on your heart, or anyone else’s. That’s not our business; God holds your heart in his hand, and you can’t change that fact. What we do care about is that no one who lived in our generation be able to stand in front of God at the White Throne and claim he didn’t hear this message. You’ve provided us with Exhibit A that you received the message. If you have any sense, or the slightest instinct of self-preservation, get your lazy butt to our pickets today and listen to some truth for the first time in your miserable life.

Have a nice day.

Oh, and why do they hate Sweden so much?

martinguerre · 08-15-2005, 08:17 PM

they hate teh sweden because teh sweden has hate crimes laws that forbid "inciting hatred" or something like that in terms of orientation. There's a case involving a pastor being charged under that law that Phelps, et al are very angry about.

/the teh joke is actually slightly funny in bad scandanavian accent...

Frozen North · 08-16-2005, 01:51 AM

As long as the vastly vast majority of human beings dismiss his rantings as idiotic babble, I could care less about what he says about anything.

lurkette · 08-16-2005, 05:44 AM

OK, I know logic is not the strong suit of fanatics, but PLEASE, this is so obviously flawed reasoning. They are just looking for any excuse to draw attention to their warped ideology.

Let's see:

Quote:

They're taking their signs to soldiers' funerals, claiming their church was bombed by an IED 10 years ago, and that God is retaliating by killing American soldiers with IEDs in Iraq.

God "uses" IEDs to punish American soldiers because America has lost its way and God wants to punish them.

So why don't they assume that God also used an IED to punish their church in the explosion a few years ago for being hate-mongering bigots?

If they applied just a few brain cells they would see how completely idiotic they are.

uncle phil · 08-16-2005, 01:09 PM

"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action."

-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

connyosis · 08-16-2005, 02:11 PM

Sweden is the land of the sodomite dead don't you know?

MSD · 08-16-2005, 04:50 PM

I'm surprsed that his cronies are so literate. I'd sexpect your stereotypical "redneck" type to be the ones shouting "God hates fags." The fact that educated people can believe this just makes it a little bit more disturbing.

08-11-2005, 12:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
thesupermikey I got blisters on me fingers!!! Location: In my stressless expectation free zone.	It seems that the only people who characterize all Moslems as extremists are the people who 1) no nothing about Islam 2) hate Moslems because they are different 3) are extremists themselves. I often times here people ask why don’t normal Moslems denounce the extremists in the faith to which respond "why don’t denounce extremist Christians" Rarely are the ever able to respond. This is just another one of those dumb head-up-our-ass sort of problems that Americans we are going to have to come to terms with __________________ If you are not outraged than you are not paying attention! "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert

08-11-2005, 01:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
mystmarimatt Omnipotent Ruler Of The Tiny Universe In My Mind Location: Oreegawn	The wonderful thing about the WBC, I think, I just how effectively it acts as its own measure of self-preservation. It's not a group that is growing, and gaining members, or, wasn't, the last time I read about them. Really, they're a group of 200 individuals or so, the majority of whom are just extended parts of the Phelps family, who live on a closed compound. And they'll probably just die out once Fred bites the dust. I take a lot of comfort in that, and it just allows me to giggle at everything they do. As far as the Moslem question is concerned, I really can't help but think it's a matter of perception. If we keep pushing these ideas and this imagery of the Bedouin savage devil, of us vs. them, it's easy to see how we'll keep believing that misconception. I have several friends who are Moslem, it really shocks me to learn that when I go over to their house, they aren't in a constant state of planning to blow up a bus or a building. I thought that was what they all did. /sarcasm ended __________________ Words of Wisdom: If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane.

08-11-2005, 04:10 PM	#8 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	i think there are two parallel points to made here. first, there is a pretty strong stance against Fred by Christian communities. Silence. Take a look at who he protests....go on to his site if you can bear it, and look at the protest plans. They'll be 99% churches or other religious institutions. And the collective experience that has been had among the churches targeted is that ignoring him is the best response. He's an attention whore, and lives for conflict. Give it to him, and he'll grow off that energy. As a queer advocate, I know where my real fights are, and this is not one of them. I think Robertson and Falwell are worth engaging. Phelps is not. Whether it's pathological or simply intractable, his stance in this matter does not bear any mark of reason. second. it's interesting that this is a point where mainstream press and culture happens to find Phelps problematic. he's been at this for years...and it was churches, funerals, schools, libraries, denominational assemblies, a whole range of cultural and religious functions. i think it's somewhat ironic that some people who didn't really mind him before when he was protesting other people now find him so objectionable. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

08-11-2005, 04:55 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I'm not going to say much more until this thread is moved to politics where it belongs, but.... Islam may well be a wonderful and peaceful religion at its core, but Islamic culture is uncompromising and dangerous to all who do not adhere to its ways. It is the culture they have created for themselves which makes children into human bombs, and murder of innocents heroic, that we fight. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

08-11-2005, 06:15 PM	#12 (permalink)
thesupermikey I got blisters on me fingers!!! Location: In my stressless expectation free zone.	Ustwo and Psycho Dad: You are looking at Islam as if all it was was a big group of waiting terrorists. Keep in mind that the Muslim world has been ruled by colonial powers and dictators for the entire duration of the modern times. These people have been repressed for decades. I'm not downplaying the violence that was been a hallmark of a slice of Islamic life for the last 25 years. Place a group of christens in a repressed controlling society long enough and there will be violence. Good examples of this can be found in the American Revolution the French Revolution and the American Civil War. I would like you to spend some time in Palestine. You will quickly realize that these people are little different than we are. It is a diverse and and colorful culture. not the mention middle eastern food is damned good. __________________ If you are not outraged than you are not paying attention! "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert

08-11-2005, 08:37 PM	#16 (permalink)
analog Banned	How about everyone just gets back on the topic at hand, which is NOT about muslim extremists, and NOT about who killed who, when, and what religion they were.

08-12-2005, 04:14 AM	#18 (permalink)
Psycho Dad Mulletproof Location: Some nucking fut house.	After rereading my last post, I can see where it may look like I paint all Muslims with the same brush. But I don't (I just did with that post). What I was pointing out is how it seems to be common to jump to a politically correct defense of Islam every time such a subject comes up. And I'll wager that the techno loving Cubs fan wouldn't stand any more chance in many Muslim circles than I would with a beer and a ham sandwich or a Muslim woman in a skirt and her face exposed would. __________________ Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

08-12-2005, 03:22 PM	#22 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	big sigh............ The only thing that will get this world a little farther than it's endless bickering is TOLERANCE. It all starts with FEAR... then comes the BLAME on the scapegoat, it's an old story, but new tricks of hate. Sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

08-12-2005, 04:32 PM	#23 (permalink)
Fourtyrulz Psycho Location: io-where?	I definitely do not posess the self restraint showed by members of the soldiers family, kudos to them for not caving and giving the picketers what they truly deserve. __________________ the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation. faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. - Merriam-Webster's dictionary

08-12-2005, 09:09 PM	#24 (permalink)
tenchi069 Lost Location: One step closer to the padded cell...	People that are so extreme that they have to either kill or plaud the deaths of others are to be despised. No matter if the "banner" they hide behind be called Islam, Christianity, "Anti-Gay Coalition," or the [insert any extremist non-compassionate government]. Whether I agree with why our troops are in Iraq or not, I support them for doing their job. Period. When someone loses their life it is a tradgedy. Period. If you don't agree with my views, that is your right. You can take my pity with you for not caring about people. Very few things will rile me. Disregard for human life, and disregard for the law are two that definitely will. Having said that, I don't agree with the protestors, but I support their right to voice their opinion. peace. tenchi __________________ ERROR- PLBSAK Problem Lies Between Seat and Keyboard. Last edited by tenchi069; 08-12-2005 at 09:11 PM..

08-13-2005, 12:08 AM	#26 (permalink)
crxforum Crazy	Those guys like to quote scripture a lot. What about one of the 10 major passages. Do unto other as you would have them do unto you? I highly doubt that they would like to have a whack of military guys at their funeral or a family members funeral with signs that said "Hate begits hate" "Rasism is Wrong" "Ignorance is the key to evil" or something like that. I bet they would be pissed off. Then when questioned about it the military guys could just say "We are not protesting or anything against the dead person. We are protesting against other protesters protesting at inappropriate places" or something stupid like that. CRX Forum

08-13-2005, 07:28 AM	#27 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	All I know is that their Church is very brave in other communities. They travel across the country to make a spectacle in front of people that they don't know. What is the reason they don't do this in Kansas? Is it because the 'protesters' might actually have to live among the people they are protesting? They came here -not to long ago. There were counter protests of another church -litererally standing with their backs to them.

08-13-2005, 08:45 AM	#28 (permalink)
Craven Morehead Custom User Title	They picketed the funeral of a fallen American serviceman a couple of weeks ago where I live. Signs saying the God Hates America. Directly across the road from the cemetary where grave site rites were being conducted. There are few more sacred events in this country than the funeral of a serviceman killed in combat and for these bigoted idiots to use that as a platform to advertise their hatred for homosexuals is beyond belief. Grief stricken parents and family trying to deal with the death of their 21 year old son. And these assholes within eyesight walking around with huge colorful signs. I think if I were there I would have spent the night in jail.

08-13-2005, 03:02 PM	#30 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Phelps is a nutcase. He uses extremist rhetoric to anger people. After encountering enough mobs of angry people who are angry solely because of his hate, one will eventually throw a punch. This punch will be caught on tape by the half of Phelps' cronies who have video cameras rolling for the sole purpose of catching an attack. Phelps then sues for discrimination or something along those lines, and gets money to spend on future hate demonstrations (I'd like to think that he spends some of it on beer and hookers, but that may just be my love fore ironic justice surfacing.) It's also worthwhile to note that out of less than 300 people in his congregation, over 90% are in some way related to him.

08-15-2005, 08:17 PM	#32 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	they hate teh sweden because teh sweden has hate crimes laws that forbid "inciting hatred" or something like that in terms of orientation. There's a case involving a pastor being charged under that law that Phelps, et al are very angry about. /the teh joke is actually slightly funny in bad scandanavian accent... __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

08-16-2005, 01:51 AM	#33 (permalink)
Frozen North Insane Location: Alaska	As long as the vastly vast majority of human beings dismiss his rantings as idiotic babble, I could care less about what he says about anything.

08-16-2005, 01:09 PM	#35 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

08-16-2005, 02:11 PM	#36 (permalink)
connyosis Psycho Location: Sweden - Land of the sodomite damned	Sweden is the land of the sodomite dead don't you know? __________________ If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

08-16-2005, 04:50 PM	#37 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	I'm surprsed that his cronies are so literate. I'd sexpect your stereotypical "redneck" type to be the ones shouting "God hates fags." The fact that educated people can believe this just makes it a little bit more disturbing.