Gilda

I was reading a thread in parenting regarding grades, in which a parent was concerned about a child who had gotten a "C" in a class and was considering making the child retake the class. I didn't want to hijack that thread, as it was relating to a very specific problem with a specific person, but I am interested in discussing the general issue of what makes for a good and bad grade.

I teach middle school. I also teach a summer course at the local branch of the state university system and an evening course during the school year.

In my classes, a "C" is not a bad grade. Neither is it a good grade. It is average, the baseline grade that indicates adequate but not outstanding performance. The average student, and the majority of my students in any class at any level get C's. B's are unusual, and indicate that a student has performed at a high level. A's are very rare, earned only by the top students. This grading system is perfectly in line with the district grading policy handbook. A student earning a C has certainly mastered the material well enough to move on to the next level and does not need to retake the class.

I've crunched the grade distribution numbers for the past two years, and this is what I get on average for a class of 25 for a typical grading period in my middle school classes:

A: 2 (about 8%)
B: 5 (about 20%)
C: 12 (about half)
D: 2 (8%)
F: 4 (16%)

My college classes tend to skew a bit higher, with fewer D's and F's and more C's and B's, but with A's still about 8-10%.

Average isn't bad, it's just normal, ordinary, just like everyone else. Most people are average in most things they do.

I have parents and students who obsess over getting all A's and B's, and students who celebrate a C.

That's my view as a teacher.

Now, I can understand it a little bit of it from the other side. The nearly three years that I had Sissy while she was in high school, I would have been disappointed at seeing a C on her report card, while a B would have been acceptable to me. She on the other hand would have considered a C a disaster and a B a disappointment, so there was never any need for me to put any pressure on her. I can remember when she was a junior taking calculus, desperately wanting to get into AP Calc 2 her senior year, and coming home with a B- on one of her tests upset that she was going to spoil her nearly perfect gpa, and spending hours each night studying with Grace to make sure she didn't slip again, or occasionally studying with me if Grace wasn't available.

But Sissy is extraordinarily smart, much more so than I am, on about the same level as Grace, and very hard working. She spent an average of three to four hours a night studying and doing homework, so given her extraordinary intelligence and work ethic, extraordiary results are what should be expected.

Do you consider a "C" a bad grade? Why or why not?

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Ustwo

My entire life my view of getting a C was that C's sucked. This was fostered by my father who called them 'hooks' and C's were never good enough.

As an adult I kept this concept as I needed to be in the top 5% of my class to do what I wanted to do. C's were failures.

So yes C's are bad grades.

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CityOfAngels

The thing isn't whether or not parents think a C is a bad grade, but rather colleges. I think the pressure just to go to college has skewed the overall parental views on grades, and instead of rewarding their children for having passed a class, they either punish or hold back their rewards from their children for not being the best. Another idea that has been skewed is "doing the best you can." Many parents feel that if you're not doing the best, then you're not doing the best you can. But what they don't realize is that interest level has a lot to do with their child's motivation. If they're not interested in the material, then they are less likely to push themselves to be the best. That's why you have some students getting C's in math, but getting A+'s in Social Sciences. The reality is that they ARE doing the best they can, only based on their level of interest.

One of the problems is that any given school's curriculum is not based on reality, but rather personal achievement within subjects. So students go to school, and they're not preparing for life, but rather preparing to compete with other students to go to college. A friend of mine was valedictorian at my high school. She went on to college undeclared. I assume that's because she was so busy trying to master a system that she didn't actually spend any time preparing for what she actually wanted to do in life. Let's get real; it is a rarity to find a profession that requires you to convert equations into graphs, classify various species, know who fought which battle with who and when and where, type a 25-page analytical essay of a fictional book (double-spaced), run a mile within a given time-limit, and if you have time leftover, paint a masterpiece and then perform in an orchestra in front of your parents.

It's a system that we've accepted to guide our children; to guide us. It's not perfect, but it's not horrible either. It's the best we've been able to come up with and agree to so far. But that doesn't mean we can't improve upon it.

So, based on all this jibba-jabba: I would not penalize my (future) children for getting C's, but I will encourage them day-to-day to strive to do better, because in the long run, you're either living paycheck to paycheck, or you're comfortable financially. Lots of times that is based on how well you matched the system's expectations of you.

Da Munk

A C is only a bad grade if the student in question is capable of doing better. An average student should not be expected to earn above average grades or else the grading system is flawed.

This is, I believe, why C's are considered to be bad grades by many. The standard for grading seems to have lowered in recent years so that A's and B's are easily achievable by otherwise average students and a C is taken as a sign of failure. This obviously isn't the case everywhere, as many teachers, yourself included, seem to apply the grades the way they were meant to be applied. Unfortunately this comes as a shock to students who have become accustomed to earning A's and B's for average work.

rainheart

I always thought it was a good idea to view C's as bad grades, because knowing that C's are in the range of 60%-69%, that means that the opportunity of a university education for whatever it is you want to do is closed.

Overall, I'm not impressed with school (excluding colleges and universities). It's not hard to get an A if you really try, because all you do is follow formulas that are either given to you or ones which you have to figure out on your own (and for every subject too, like the process of putting together a good essay can have it's own 'formula' if you get me) as CityOfAngels pointed out. I've met so many students who are actually intelligent but perform poorly in school, and tonnes of dull and unperceptive students who sacrifice everything to get more time to study and perform well in school, and I get disappointed everytime I see something like that.

Besides that point, I think (or maybe my parents thought and therefore I think) it's necessary for C to be seen as a bad grade to force students to study harder and achieve more in school because they may not be able to judge the consequences of putting less effort in school as well as adults.

FngKestrel

Cs have always been a bad grade for me, but I just figured that was a by-product of ethnicity. My parents are pretty stereotypical Asian, and grades and school are paramount. I was expected to get As and Bs in everything except PE, since that wasn't counted in the GPA, according to my parents.

MexicanOnABike

C is not bad. i was getting As most of my life till i stoped giving a shit. then it went to Ds. for me, once i got my D, i was satisfied. and my parents just wanted me to pass so they didnt care. I know I'm an A but my laziness gives me a C. average person. so i guess it's up to the person to decide if they think it's bad or not. ... but if you're BEST grade is a C, then theres a problem. (i got 99.9% in a college class 2 years ago and 95% this year... the class that i didnt give a fuck about were Cs.)

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Suave

Post secondary education is meant to separate the elite (whether it be in the realm of intelligence, work ethic, or a combination thereof) from the masses, though this is less true with trade schools and certain colleges. As such, they have limited capacities and especially with universities, need to keep numbers lower. To do this, they increase the entry requirement, which parents then think their child automatically must get in order to "succeed" in life. They've been brainwashed by media into thinking that a post secondary, and more specifically a university or equivalent college education, is an absolute requirement for their child to do what they consider to be "well" in life later. Hence with increasing requirements and more enrolment caps, the grade expectation for parents raises.

rainheart just provided a perfect example of the "post secondary education for happiness" mind-set that plagues our societies.

I personally found C to be less than satisfactory simply because I was used to getting higher marks. I tend to understand what I'm being taught fairly well, so if I get a mark below about a B- it can be a bit frustrating.

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clavus

C is average. The average person is a dumbass. C is bad

I once defended a "B" I got on my report card. I said, "Dad, B means 'above average.' That's good."

"No," he replied. "'Above average' is another way of saying 'mediocre.'"

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Lasereth

My parents told me my entire life that C's are bad. If I got a C on my report card, my parents strongly considered having a conference with the teacher. I suppose it differs from student to student and parent to parent. If I brought home a C on my report card, I was usually grounded indefinitely. I made 2 C's and 2 D's in high school and was punished heavily for both. The rest were A's and B's across the board.

In college, I've made 1 C so far, and I do consider it my "bad grade." I've debated retaking the class to make a B or up in it (the reason I made a C was the teacher being a dickhead, plain and simple...it's my one and only C, I'm able to judge what caused it). As a matter of fact, I'd retake it in a heartbeat if I had enough room in my schedule, but I don't.

Many of my friends consider C a "good grade." That goes back to my point of it differing from family to family. In my family, C is and will always be a failing grade. In other families, students are praised for making a C. I'm not sure how each of these evolved through the years in each family though. I guess I just always strived for the best from the get-go. If a student never tried his or her hardest, then perhaps the parents would be accustomed to the student getting a C. My parents both made astronomically bad grades in school, so I know it's not their standards...maybe it's just the standards I've set myself for always trying my best? I guess it doesn't help that I have an identical twin brother to compare myself to everyday who is taking the same classes and tries as hard as I do. If I do worse than him then the entire family starts the, "well your brother got higher than you, you're not working hard enough, do better" routine.

-Lasereth

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Stompy

It's all relative to difficulty.

If you get a C in something like pre-algebra, then yeah, there's a prob. If you get a C in Calculus 3, you'll still better than the "average" because most people don't even take that high of a course.

So in that case, you'd be "average of this very select few who even make it this high to qualify for this course."

I don't find that bad at all.

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RAGEAngel9

I agree with most here that C's are in general bad or, at least, if you want post graduate education C's are the quick way away from it.
Sort of still on topic, I've always been mildly bugged about the idea of in a given class:
x get As
y get Bs
z get Cs etc.
It really seems like luck of the draw how difficutl your class will be.

Ustwo

This is a very valid point, but the ironic thing for me was by the time I was with a group who were all about my level, the grade itself meant very little and I could not tell you what grades I had in any but one class for those three years. Likewise there was no curve, we were just expected to KNOW it. A or C didn't matter at that point, while prior to that, a few C's would have been life changing for me.

I think it depends on how high you aim your academic goals.

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Lasereth

Yep. In college it really is pure luck on how hard you have to work in a class. I've had people tell me this or that class is an "easy A," then find myself worrying the entire semester because it's so hard, and at the very end barely pulling out a B-. It's all about the professor.

-Lasereth

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Elphaba

I agree. Post-graduate applications in my major were extremely competitive. One 'C' in undergraduate work might have been enough to knock me out of the running.

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Slavakion

The only classes where I felt somewhat comfortable with a C were my AP Chem/Calc classes last year. Even then, I felt like "Ok, so most of the class got in the 60s or below. But I could've gotten a B."

It's not really that I'm an overacheiver, it's that the (non AP) classes in many/most primary schools are designed for underacheivers. I felt bad getting a B, let alone a C even in honors classes. My worst grade was one C+ in Calc, and I'll remember it for some time.

Lasereth

My English teacher had his Masters at 23. He had a record of perfect A's in college except for one B+. The one B+ kept him from getting in to 3 different schools for his doctorate. A C would basically fuck you over at getting your doctorate at a semiyoung age if it's as strict as his situation.

-Lasereth

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Gilda

This is my thinking.

Teachers should make their grading policies clear at the beginning of their classes so that students know what level of performance is expected of them. In my classes I make it abundantly clear that grades are based on performance. Getting a B is hard, and an A requires truly outstanding work. Any student of mine who claims to be surprised at this when they get their grades at the end of the grading period is either lying or hasn't been paying attention.

Gilda

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Gilda

I don't know of any teacher at any level who gives a C for 60-69%. The standard scale in US public schools uses a 10 point range, with 90-80-70-60 being cutoff points for A-B-C-D. My grading scale skews a little higher than that. The cutoff for a passing grade in my middle school classes is 67%, and in my University classes 75%.

I agree with you at least partly here. I'm not impressed with any school or class where getting an A isn't difficult.

I'm not sure what your other objection is. Certain classes, particularly physical science and math, are about learning step by step procedures and how to apply those prodecures to a novel situation. As you say here, this can even apply to writing an essay. Knowing the basic procedure for how to perform a task is the foundation on whichs students can build and develop advanced skills.

We're just the opposite here. I celebrate hard work that results in outstanding performance. We can't control how smart we are, but we can cotrol how much effort we put into things. Smart people who don't work hard don't deserve to succeed solely because they are intelligent.

My experience is that there are a great many students who will do what is necessary to get a C- to keep parents off their backs. There are high achivers who will do whatever is necessary to get a minimum of a B for personal reasons or to please parents, and there is a tiny minority for whom A is the threshhold of acceptible.

This is exactly the reason why I think we should raise the standards students need to meet to get these grades and expect students to meet high standards rather than lower standards to match student performance. If we expect more work to get a C, students who want a C will do better work to get that C, and so forth for A's and B's.

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Gilda

Many people are applying the standard of C's being bad because they interfere with being able to get a post secondary education, or a graduate degree.

First, there are extensive opportunities for students with mediocre grades to attend college. The US has an extensive junior college system and has many more four year colleges that are accessible to the average student than selective Universities or Elite schools.

Yes, these selective and Elite schools use grades as one standard for admission, because they want only the best students. This does not mean that students who do not meet the standards for such institutions are bad students, or that grades that don't meet their criteria are bad grades, it just means that they are not outstanding.

Why exclude a middle area that is neither good nor bad?

As a student, I would have been very disappointed at getting a C if I'd ever gotten any, and I considered a B on a paper or a test a wakeup call that I needed to work harder. Being disappointed with a C doesn't mean I think it was a bad grade, though. It just means that I didn't want to be average. Average, ordinary, mediocre, these aren't bad things. Especially if we raise expcetations for what it takes to be average, if we require more for a person to be average.

Gilda

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Ustwo

In difficult science classes, the C range may well be a 40-50% based on the curve. This is very true with professors who like to give near impossible tests to get 90%+ on in order to get a true seperation of the students.

I think my lowest 'passing' score (it was a C, never have your GF break up with you the night you are trying to study) on an exam was a raw 35%.

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Gilda

I completely agree that that competetive curving is a bad system for grading. Take Sissy, for example. Put her in a typical high school physics class with typical high school students, and she's going to be one of the elite students in the class. Put her in the same class, but make the other students Newton, Copernicus, Eienstein, Hawking, and Kepler, and she'd be the worst student in class, even with the same performance. Evaluation should be criterion based, not competetive.

Gilda

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Marvelous Marv

I agree with this part. These days, even the so-called "best" schools have been dumbed down. It's become common knowledge that it's harder to get into Harvard than out of it.


Gotta disagree. If I need a brain surgeon, I want the one who gets the best results, regardless of whether it's easy or hard for him. That's true in most other scenarios that come to mind. Why in the world would a person be downgraded for "A" work that he or she happened to be able to accomplish easily?

To get back to the subject of the post, I think Cs suck. They would have kept me from getting where I wanted to go, and the standards I have for myself and my kids are to be better than average.

Put another way, I don't want my water 50% pure, my airplane to land properly 80% of the time, or my pharmacist to get things right 80% of the time.

BTW, what do you teach?

Lasereth

At my college, studying for a test for 3 hours max, going to class, and turning in thoughtful papers will usually net a B or above. It's sad that most people at college net straight Cs because they won't go to class, don't write thoughtful papers, and simply don't study for tests period. In college, grades aren't a symbol of how smart, clever, or intelligent you are...it's simply a symbol of how hard you're willing to work. I'm almost glad it's setup that way. I work for my grade and I usually get it. The "smart people" who don't go to class and do the aforementioned careless things are the C range people.

-Lasereth

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Gilda

I don't know what you're arguing with here, as what you say agrees with what I said. I neither said nor implied that I think someone should be downgraded for doing "A" work if that comes easily to them.

Here is the statement to which I was responding, and my response:

Rainheart referenced two specific groups. Those are smart but perform poorly, and those who aren't as smart, but do well due to hard work, and complained that that was a bad thing. I disagreed. Rewarding performance due to hard work is a good thing. Smart people who don't perform shouldn't be rewarded just because they are smart.

I'm pretty sure we're in agreement here.

This is exactly the reason why getting good grades should be hard, and B's shouldn't be seen as the baseline performance. Airline pilots and pharmacists and PhD's are among society's elite when it comes to their respective professions, and the standards for these jobs should be very high because we routinely expect outstanding performance of their duties.

6th and 7th grade humanities and 8th grade life skills at the middle school level, and children's literature at the college level.

Gilda

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Ustwo

In a class of 10 I agree.

In a class of 200+ I tend to disagree. The sample size is big enough there to even the distribution.

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AVoiceOfReason

My folks had seen the results of my standardized tests before those were released to the parents as a matter of course--my dad was a school adminstrator--so they knew what I was capable of, and when I didn't measure up. C's were bad grades for me, because everyone, including me, knew I could do better. Even B's were frowned on in high school and college. As a result, I didn't make any C's (on the transcript, that is) until law school, and most of those I think I deserved!

But as has been said, there are some students in some courses that won't do any better than a C, no matter how much effort is expended. Parents (and the student, if older and caring) need to recognize this.

JumpinJesus

Interesting topic, Gilda. I am also a teacher. During parent conference, I had a mother argue with me for over 1 hour because her son got a "C" in reading.

My argument went: C is an average grade. In a class of 24 students, it should be expected that at least 12-14 students will get a C, with the remaining students spread out over the rest of the grade spectrum.

Her argument went: He's been on Honor Roll since the 1st grade. This is the first time he's ever, ever gotten a C. I don't think you're being fair.

I explained to her that a lot of teachers either simply bump up grades to avoid confrontations with parents or their work is so easy that getting As and Bs is as simple as showing up. I explained to her that giving her son As and Bs just to make him happy will end up making him more of a disappointment later in life when he finds that mediocre work is not rewarded well.

Now, on to whether a C is a bad grade or not: no, it isn't. Just like Gilda explained, it is an average grade. It is supposed to indicate that a student has performed adequately enough to pass, no better, no worse. It is to denote acceptable performance. Unfortunately, we live in a society where good enough isn't good enough. Everybody has to be in the top 5 and no one accepts less. The problem with grade inflation is that it makes the value of a B or an A worthless. And seriously, just how many people can be the best, anyways?

I grade as scientifically as I am able based upon what I learned about grading in college. In a class of 25 students, there should be no more than 2 or 3 students earning As. Other teachers in my school are always amazed at me during any awards assembly because, while they are calling up 11 or 12 students to receive honor roll, I've never had more than 4 receive it, and sometimes none.

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Elphaba

Twice in one day I have agreed with Ustwo.

Graduate classes tend to be very small, so applying a curve grading system to them is artificial at best.

Intro undergraduate classes held 300 or more students at Cal. Even so, I prefer specific standards of performance to determine a grade, rather than using a bell curve. Cal wasn't San Jose, the "party" school. The "curve" was already skewed to the right.

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Suave

Unless! Unless there was serious sampling error. Riposte!

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Marvelous Marv

This is where either I don't understand you, we're not in agreement, or we're discussing opposite ends of a concept. Or maybe a little of each.

I have been in higher-level classes where everyone was very bright, and pretty much the entire class mastered the course objectives. However, when test time rolled around, it contained what we used to call "Guess what I'm thinking" questions. These questions even tripped up PhDs on occasion.

It seems you're saying that we shouldn't be "dumbing classes down." Agreed, but as related above, I experienced more "smartening classes up," which seemed to be an attempt by faculty to achieve more prestige. Maybe that's not as common now.

Just so I'm clear--you've mentioned that As in your classes are not terribly common. Have you never experienced a situation in which you had quite a few more of them than normal, just because smart students happened to be clustered in that class?

Or did Hawking get a "C?"

Edit: P.S. Thanks for an interesting post.

Elphaba

Which is always true if you assume a normal distribution, when in fact it is skewed. Riposte back atcha!

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AVoiceOfReason

Absolutely. When I taught at the local college, I told my students from the first day what it would take to make an A in my class, and there was none of that "well, I've already given 3 A's, therefore you don't get one" thinking. I wasn't bothered to give one A or 10 A's--it just didn't matter to me. The individual was judged against MY standard, not that of others.

It's discouraging at best and sadistic at worst to use a strict curve--only a set amount of A's and a set amount of D's--and while I agree that gradeflation is out of hand, a skilled teacher can make individual judgments that don't rely on an unfair system of evaluation.

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Gilda

Permit me to clarify. Grading should be based on performance, and nothing else. The smart student who doesn't perform well as a result of unwillingness to do the work doesn't deserve a good grade. The less intelligent student who does perform well because he or she put in the time and effort to do the work and do well on the work deservs a good grade.

I've had parents come to a conference and say their child deserved a better grade because she knows the material, she just didn't get all the work done, did a poor job on her work portfolio, didn't participate in class discussion, did a poor job on her presentations, and didn't put much effort into her research paper. But she deserves a good grade because she did well on her tests. I point out that it takes A and B and C and D to get a good grade in my classes, so if your child only did A well, she hasn't earned a good grade.

That's a bad test. If everyone in the class mastered the course objectives at a high level, they should all get high grades. I write my tests before beginning instruction for a unit and make sure every item on the test is covered either in assigned reading or lecture and discussion.

Sure. I have two, two-hour humanities classes. The typical class of 25 might produce 2 or 3 A's over the long haul, but any individual class during a given grading period might have 5 or 6 A's or just one, depending upon how the best students are distributed. Some years I get most of the top students and the other humanities teacher gets few, sometimes I get few and he gets a bunch. Most years it's a relatively evenly spread.

I don't grade on a curve, I use an absolute grading system with a slight upwards adjustment based on what the highest score in the class is.

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Ustwo

In the sciences I found that the bell curve is the norm since no one really masters the material. The exams tended to be very hard, often insanely hard and as such those who knew the material best got the A's. They would even state ahead of time that IF you got a 90% or whatever you would get an A regardless of the curve, but the funny thing is it had yet to be an issue due to the difficulty of the testing (if you got a 90% odds are you were already well into the right of the curve).

Now I did have some profs who went with the good old straight 70-80-90 type grading but I found those classes almost laughable by comparison. Instead of stretching me to my limits and rewarding me for REALLY understanding the material, I could get by just learning their expectations, which were always lower than my ability.

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Siege

Wow, you're asking me if C's are bad grades? As far as my parents were concerned, B's were bad grades. I should probably note that my grading system was as followed: C = 60-69%, B = 70-79%, A = 80%+. My parents yelled at me for hours for every B I got on my report card. I used to be a straight A student until I stopped caring, and until I fell into depression.

As for do I think C's are bad grades. No, they are not bad grades unless you plan on going to university/college. If you don't plan on doing those, then by all means, get 50's. But in today's society, grades are what count. A university isn't going to take a student who works hard but get's 70%. They're going to take the slacker who gets 90%. As to which one stays in, well, that's up for discussion. The point is, the higher your marks, the more likely you will get in. The higher your marks, the more choices you have.

Ironically, I know lots of C students who now make more money then their university graduate friends. I'm not sure about other places, but in Ontario, skilled trades (in my opinion) is a much better choice than the majority of university programs.

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"Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek"

--Kevin Smith

This part just makes my posts easier to find

ShaniFaye

I was grounded my entire sophmore year in high school because I got a C in my american government class the last quarter (yeah back then we were still on the quarter system) of my freshman year of high school.

I had never in my life gotten anything but A's and my parents thought a C was as bad as failing.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Ustwo

A full year? Thats a wee bit harsh.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Stompy

Haha, I remember once when I had a report call FULL of B's... prob 6th or 7th grade.. my mom had the nerve to say somethign like, "Why aren't they all A's?". Um yeah, all B's is pretty damn good.

I think I said something along the lines of, "yeah, it's really not that bad at all, so you can kiss my ass."

Next report card period, I purposely did bad to get lower grades (and in 6th grade, low grades don't really matter) and told her, "I bet those B's are lookin pretty good right about now, huh?"

To this DAY I make fun of her for that. My little brother is 8.. sometimes I'll crack jokes like, "Wow, hope you don't cut his head off for doing better than 80% of the other students!!"

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I love lamp.

astrahl

If you dont mind an average college with an average major, an average career and an average lifestyle, a 'C' is fine. For those of us who wanted better and in some cases the best, a 'C' sucks.

'C's suck and everybody knows it. Carlos Mencia had a great line..."Why do I gotta work at T-T-Taco Bell? Well, maybe its your rr-rr-rr-report card. You got straight D's, what does that spell? Duh Dduuh duhduhduh.

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Maybe it was over when she chucked me out the Rover at full speed.
Maybe Maybe...
~a-Ha