Pope's fault that AIDs is so widespread in Africa - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

lindalove · 07-20-2005, 06:06 AM

One of my work colleagues said to me earlier that it's the Pope's fault that AIDs is so widespread in Africa because most of the population is catholic and thus don't use contraception (i.e. condoms, which helps prevent STDs such as AIDs). Apparently, if the Pope said it was okay to use condoms, Africans would use them thus stopping the spread.

I don't think I've ever heard this sort of logic before. Other than the question of how the Africans (poorer ones) would get condoms in the first place, does anyone have any sort of input into this logic?

I mean, it sounds sort of interesting and makes sense in a daft way, but I don't know that much about the Catholic religion/etc. It just got me thinking about what other's thought.

Mini disclaimer.. I mean to offence to either Africans, Catholics or anyone with AIDs. The views expressed above are not my own, I'm just curious about them.

frogza · 07-20-2005, 06:12 AM

That argument doesn't hold up because the Pope, as well as all other Christian leaders, teach abstinance before marriage and complete fidelity after. That would make spreading sexually transmitted diseases very difficult.

Mephisto2 · 07-20-2005, 06:31 AM

This is typical anti-Catholic rhetoric.

Having said that, I believe it's a disgrace that the Catholic Church do not endorse the use of condoms to prevent AIDS.

But tying that dogmatic decision directly to the spread of the disease is like me claiming it's America's fault that the 9/11 attacks happened because the CIA funded Bin Laden.

Related? Yes.

Directly responsible? No.

Mr Mephisto

StanT · 07-20-2005, 06:43 AM

Bullshit

While the churches stand certainly doesn't help matters, they aren't responsible for AIDs in Africa. You've got to break a few Catholic rules to get AIDs, the "no condom" one is just one more.

SirLance · 07-20-2005, 07:05 AM

As a Catholic, I have to respond that the faith teaches that sexual promiscuity is a no-no. If all these Africans were listening to the Pope as your friend claims, AIDS would not be a problem in Africa.

As a member of special operations forces, I went to Africa many times. Tell your buddy to do some research about the vast number of Catholic and Catholic-funded relief operations in Africa, who are working diligently to stem the tide of hunger, poverty, and disease there.

As a Catholic, I'm proud that the Church is at the forefront where social justice is concerned. I do think they are missing the boat on reproductive freedom. The tribal/warlord system uses this to suppress women.

Seer666 · 07-20-2005, 11:42 AM

Well, I make no bones about the fact I don't like the Church, but even I have to wave the bullshit flag on this one. The Church says "Don't do it" not "Don't do it unprotected". I think the Church needs to get a clue and endorse the use of condoms if you are going to full around, but then I also think the Vatican needs to be burned down. After the vaults have been emptied and there contents made readable by the public.

RAGEAngel9 · 07-20-2005, 11:50 AM

While I definitely think your friend is pushing logic a little far, there have been several articles about specific African(or priests in Africa) Catholic Priests that have pushed false information about condoms and birth control. These guys I do think are responsible for helping the spread of AIDS, but I do not think their actions are the Pope's fault. I do think it is the Pope's problem though and he should make sure that the priests are not lying when trying to push their message.

Sugarmouse · 07-20-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer666

Well, I make no bones about the fact I don't like the Church, but even I have to wave the bullshit flag on this one. The Church says "Don't do it" not "Don't do it unprotected". I think the Church needs to get a clue and endorse the use of condoms if you are going to full around, but then I also think the Vatican needs to be burned down. After the vaults have been emptied and there contents made readable by the public.

i agree..and with the related but not entirely responsable thign...i beleive there are other factors..buit this is a definite one of them..your freinds theory has a point.

World's King · 07-20-2005, 12:55 PM

It's the Popes fault Brad and Jenn broke up.

rsl12 · 07-20-2005, 01:05 PM

If sex and birth control are to be put into terms of hunting, what the Catholic Church is saying is that you should never go hunting unless you actually plan to kill an animal. When you *do* decide to go hunting to kill an animal, do it right and use good quality bullets. Perfectly sensible, isn't it? Nothing hypocritical about it.

Again in terms of hunting, what you're saying is, "why doesn't the Catholic Church say that you should use rubber bullets if you're going hunting just for fun, and not planning to really kill anything? That would keep people from accidentally getting injured." Hmm?? Does that make any sense? If you believe that hunting is solely to be performed for the purposes of killing animals, why would you ever use rubber bullets?

The Catholic Church is being consistent in its refusal to condone the use of condoms--the dogma is that sex is to be performed in the hopes of procreation, and discussing the possibility of condoms would be antithetical to this philosophical stance.

Not that I agree with the idea that sex=procreation, but it would be hypocritical of the Catholic church to condone their use.

BBtB · 07-20-2005, 01:18 PM

Ignoring the arguement of just because the pope says no condoms they are not using them and therefore spreading aids.. Despite the fact that to do that they would have to ignore the much more serious crime of having sex at all.. I would like to know how much of an influence the pope even has in Africa. I mean I am sure they do have a large catholic population, along with most other places of the world, but I was under the impression that Africa had a very large muslim community. I could be wrong, I have studied a number of things and Africa is not one of them but isn't it predominatly muslim? Just for the sake of argument does anyone know any estimates on this?

roachboy · 07-20-2005, 01:30 PM

have a look at this site for information about both dominant religion/area and hiv/aids rates.

http://archives.tconline.org/stories/july01/map.html

MSD · 07-20-2005, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

have a look at this site for information about both dominant religion/area and hiv/aids rates.

http://archives.tconline.org/stories/july01/map.html

It's highly unsurprising that predominantly Muslim areas, which can be assumed to have Islamic governments, also have draconian laws against any sort of promiscuity, and frequently punish offenders with death, have lower rates of sexually transmitted diseases.

I'd also like to quote a post of mine from a thread about HIV in sexuality:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Perhaps the reason that AIDS is so widespread in Africa is that the diagnosis criteria are not a blood test for the HIV virus, but the following symptom analysis chart:

Major Signs:

Chronic Diarrhea for more than a month.
Weight loss of 10% of body weight
Intermittent or constant fever for more than a month.

Minor Signs:

History of herpes zoster.
Persistent cough for more than a month.
Generalized itchy skin rashes.
Thrush.
Chronic progressive or disseminated herpes virus infection.
Swollen lymph glands.

Two major signs and one minor sign are sufficient evidence for a diagnosis of AIDS. It is worthwhile to note that Tuberculosis or other serious diseases without a compromised immune system can bring about the same symptoms. I hope that my cynicism turns out to be well-founded and that an influx of medical aid and supplies into Africa in the next decade shows that a significant portion of AIDS diagnoses are actually treatable illnesses and not HIV infections.

Demeter · 07-20-2005, 06:03 PM

I would suspect sex would be the largest factor. I think there is probably a great deal of ignorance & misinformation about AIDS amonst people there. I think lack of education in the matter is the primary reason.

ObieX · 07-20-2005, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demeter

I would suspect sex would be the largest factor. I think there is probably a great deal of ignorance & misinformation about AIDS amonst people there. I think lack of education in the matter is the primary reason.

Yep thats the reason there. And even when they find out the facts many refuse to believe them and just go about doing what they were doing. I remember a special about HIV in africa that was shown not all that long ago on PBS, and they mentioned that there were many people there who thought that if you had sex with a virgin that you would be cured of HIV.... and the younger the virgin the better your chances of being cured.. people were having sex with INFANTS.

Seer666 · 07-20-2005, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsl12

If sex and birth control are to be put into terms of hunting, what the Catholic Church is saying is that you should never go hunting unless you actually plan to kill an animal. When you *do* decide to go hunting to kill an animal, do it right and use good quality bullets. Perfectly sensible, isn't it? Nothing hypocritical about it.

Again in terms of hunting, what you're saying is, "why doesn't the Catholic Church say that you should use rubber bullets if you're going hunting just for fun, and not planning to really kill anything? That would keep people from accidentally getting injured." Hmm?? Does that make any sense? If you believe that hunting is solely to be performed for the purposes of killing animals, why would you ever use rubber bullets?

The Catholic Church is being consistent in its refusal to condone the use of condoms--the dogma is that sex is to be performed in the hopes of procreation, and discussing the possibility of condoms would be antithetical to this philosophical stance.

Not that I agree with the idea that sex=procreation, but it would be hypocritical of the Catholic church to condone their use.

It wouldn't be hypocritical. Either way it's still a sin to the church. As long as that stance doesn't change, then they are pretty much where they were before. The only differnce is they would finnaly be taking a proactive stance and admiting that we are in the middle of a fucking epidemic. Truth be told, AIDS is one of the best things to happen to the Church. Now they have a reason to stand around and go "I told you so". I really do feel that haveing a tool like that to help install fear in the masses is more importent to them then saving a few lives. Makes me sound like a conspiricy buff, I know.

Demeter · 07-20-2005, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObieX

Yep thats the reason there. And even when they find out the facts many refuse to believe them and just go about doing what they were doing. I remember a special about HIV in africa that was shown not all that long ago on PBS, and they mentioned that there were many people there who thought that if you had sex with a virgin that you would be cured of HIV.... and the younger the virgin the better your chances of being cured.. people were having sex with INFANTS.

I think I saw the same show.

0energy0 · 07-20-2005, 11:10 PM

The Pope is leader-like, but not the real leader. He is like a guide. Anyways, he is old. What do you expect?

pig · 07-21-2005, 12:29 PM

My personal opinion is that taking a theoligical position that condemns condom use is irresponsible. I can understand stressing abstinence, but absolutely forbiding condoms when your decrees amount to conditional entrance to heaven is pretty drastic. Then again, that's another reason I can't do organized religion. Not the point.

However, when the Church or its representatives would seem to directly be spreading misinformation about condoms, in the middle of an epidemic - I really think that's irresponsible:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/3147672.stm

Quote:

The team has discovered that the Catholic Church - contrary to mainstream scientific opinion - is claiming that condoms have microscopic holes in them which allow the HIV virus through.

The World Health Organisation has condemned this view as dangerous.

Panorama also meets the pro-life mayor who has taken control of Manila City's health clinics, banning the Pill and condoms, and schoolgirls raped by their own father, yet obliged to carry his babies to term.

kutulu · 07-21-2005, 01:05 PM

I have trouble blaming the Church for the spread of AIDS but I do believe that their stance on b/c is a contributing factor. It's no coincidence that the AIDS outbreaks line up so well with the religions.

Yakk · 07-21-2005, 01:09 PM

I would think the analogy would be more along the lines of "if you aren't hunting deer, stay out of the forest"?

There are many reasons to go into the forest. Some go for fun (casual sex), some go for small game (non-procreative sex between partners generates bonds), and some go for deer (procreative sex).

Not everyone is capable of hunting deer. The deer aren't always in season. Sometimes, it is wiser to leave the deer alone and just hunt small game, for economic reasons. Other times you just want to walk in the cool trees and look around.

vermin · 07-21-2005, 03:31 PM

Quote:

There are many reasons to go into the forest. Some go for fun (casual sex), some go for small game (non-procreative sex between partners generates bonds), and some go for deer (procreative sex).

Not everyone is capable of hunting deer. The deer aren't always in season. Sometimes, it is wiser to leave the deer alone and just hunt small game, for economic reasons. Other times you just want to walk in the cool trees and look around.

I agree, sometimes a squirrel or a rabbit is enough to get you through, you don't always need a whole deer.

The spread of AIDS in Africa has a lot more to do with the individual country's governments not really giving a shit about their people than anything the pope can do or say.

07-20-2005, 06:06 AM	#1 (permalink)
lindalove Registered User	Pope's fault that AIDs is so widespread in Africa One of my work colleagues said to me earlier that it's the Pope's fault that AIDs is so widespread in Africa because most of the population is catholic and thus don't use contraception (i.e. condoms, which helps prevent STDs such as AIDs). Apparently, if the Pope said it was okay to use condoms, Africans would use them thus stopping the spread. I don't think I've ever heard this sort of logic before. Other than the question of how the Africans (poorer ones) would get condoms in the first place, does anyone have any sort of input into this logic? I mean, it sounds sort of interesting and makes sense in a daft way, but I don't know that much about the Catholic religion/etc. It just got me thinking about what other's thought. Mini disclaimer.. I mean to offence to either Africans, Catholics or anyone with AIDs. The views expressed above are not my own, I'm just curious about them.

07-20-2005, 06:43 AM	#4 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	Bullshit While the churches stand certainly doesn't help matters, they aren't responsible for AIDs in Africa. You've got to break a few Catholic rules to get AIDs, the "no condom" one is just one more. Last edited by StanT; 07-20-2005 at 06:46 AM..

07-20-2005, 07:05 AM	#5 (permalink)
SirLance Junkie Location: In the middle of the desert.	As a Catholic, I have to respond that the faith teaches that sexual promiscuity is a no-no. If all these Africans were listening to the Pope as your friend claims, AIDS would not be a problem in Africa. As a member of special operations forces, I went to Africa many times. Tell your buddy to do some research about the vast number of Catholic and Catholic-funded relief operations in Africa, who are working diligently to stem the tide of hunger, poverty, and disease there. As a Catholic, I'm proud that the Church is at the forefront where social justice is concerned. I do think they are missing the boat on reproductive freedom. The tribal/warlord system uses this to suppress women. __________________ DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

07-20-2005, 11:42 AM	#6 (permalink)
Seer666 Oh dear God he breeded Location: Arizona	Well, I make no bones about the fact I don't like the Church, but even I have to wave the bullshit flag on this one. The Church says "Don't do it" not "Don't do it unprotected". I think the Church needs to get a clue and endorse the use of condoms if you are going to full around, but then I also think the Vatican needs to be burned down. After the vaults have been emptied and there contents made readable by the public. __________________ Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

07-20-2005, 12:55 PM	#9 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	It's the Popes fault Brad and Jenn broke up. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

07-20-2005, 06:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
frogza Registered User Location: Right Here	That argument doesn't hold up because the Pope, as well as all other Christian leaders, teach abstinance before marriage and complete fidelity after. That would make spreading sexually transmitted diseases very difficult.

07-20-2005, 06:31 AM	#3 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	This is typical anti-Catholic rhetoric. Having said that, I believe it's a disgrace that the Catholic Church do not endorse the use of condoms to prevent AIDS. But tying that dogmatic decision directly to the spread of the disease is like me claiming it's America's fault that the 9/11 attacks happened because the CIA funded Bin Laden. Related? Yes. Directly responsible? No. Mr Mephisto

07-20-2005, 11:50 AM	#7 (permalink)
RAGEAngel9 Insane Location: Vermont	While I definitely think your friend is pushing logic a little far, there have been several articles about specific African(or priests in Africa) Catholic Priests that have pushed false information about condoms and birth control. These guys I do think are responsible for helping the spread of AIDS, but I do not think their actions are the Pope's fault. I do think it is the Pope's problem though and he should make sure that the priests are not lying when trying to push their message.

07-20-2005, 01:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	If sex and birth control are to be put into terms of hunting, what the Catholic Church is saying is that you should never go hunting unless you actually plan to kill an animal. When you do decide to go hunting to kill an animal, do it right and use good quality bullets. Perfectly sensible, isn't it? Nothing hypocritical about it. Again in terms of hunting, what you're saying is, "why doesn't the Catholic Church say that you should use rubber bullets if you're going hunting just for fun, and not planning to really kill anything? That would keep people from accidentally getting injured." Hmm?? Does that make any sense? If you believe that hunting is solely to be performed for the purposes of killing animals, why would you ever use rubber bullets? The Catholic Church is being consistent in its refusal to condone the use of condoms--the dogma is that sex is to be performed in the hopes of procreation, and discussing the possibility of condoms would be antithetical to this philosophical stance. Not that I agree with the idea that sex=procreation, but it would be hypocritical of the Catholic church to condone their use. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy. Last edited by rsl12; 07-20-2005 at 01:17 PM..

07-20-2005, 01:18 PM	#11 (permalink)
BBtB ClerkMan! Location: Tulsa, Ok.	Ignoring the arguement of just because the pope says no condoms they are not using them and therefore spreading aids.. Despite the fact that to do that they would have to ignore the much more serious crime of having sex at all.. I would like to know how much of an influence the pope even has in Africa. I mean I am sure they do have a large catholic population, along with most other places of the world, but I was under the impression that Africa had a very large muslim community. I could be wrong, I have studied a number of things and Africa is not one of them but isn't it predominatly muslim? Just for the sake of argument does anyone know any estimates on this? __________________ Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ... "I would like about three fiddy"

07-20-2005, 01:30 PM	#12 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	have a look at this site for information about both dominant religion/area and hiv/aids rates. http://archives.tconline.org/stories/july01/map.html __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-20-2005, 06:03 PM	#14 (permalink)
Demeter Psycho	I would suspect sex would be the largest factor. I think there is probably a great deal of ignorance & misinformation about AIDS amonst people there. I think lack of education in the matter is the primary reason. __________________ I am not bound to please thee with my answers. William Shakespeare

07-20-2005, 11:10 PM	#18 (permalink)
0energy0 Insane Location: Title Town, USA	The Pope is leader-like, but not the real leader. He is like a guide. Anyways, he is old. What do you expect? __________________ Is the juice worth the squeeze?

07-21-2005, 01:05 PM	#20 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I have trouble blaming the Church for the spread of AIDS but I do believe that their stance on b/c is a contributing factor. It's no coincidence that the AIDS outbreaks line up so well with the religions.

07-21-2005, 01:09 PM	#21 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	I would think the analogy would be more along the lines of "if you aren't hunting deer, stay out of the forest"? There are many reasons to go into the forest. Some go for fun (casual sex), some go for small game (non-procreative sex between partners generates bonds), and some go for deer (procreative sex). Not everyone is capable of hunting deer. The deer aren't always in season. Sometimes, it is wiser to leave the deer alone and just hunt small game, for economic reasons. Other times you just want to walk in the cool trees and look around. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.