Rear Admiral James Stockdale, R.I.P. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

iccky · 07-06-2005, 02:24 PM

There are many reasons I'm a bit embarrassed about heading up the Perot for President campaign in our 4th grade mock election, but this man is not one of them. If the word “badass” doesn’t apply here, it doesn’t apply anywhere.

Quote:

Retired Vice Adm. James Stockdale Dies

Wednesday July 6, 2005 11:16 AM

AP Photo FLPEJ501

By SETH HETTENA

Associated Press Writer

SAN DIEGO (AP) - Retired Vice Adm. James Stockdale was a highly decorated Navy pilot who ran for vice president as Ross Perot's running mate in 1992, but by his own admission he was no politician.

``Who am I? Why am I here?'' Stockdale asked rhetorically in one of the most enduring moments of the 1992 presidential campaign, as he debated Dan Quayle and Al Gore on national television.

Stockdale, who endured 7 years in a North Vietnamese prison and earned the Medal of Honor for valor, died Tuesday at his home in Coronado at the age of 81. The Navy did not provide a cause of death but said he had suffered from Alzheimer's disease.

Stockdale, who said he joined the race to repay Perot for working to help free POWs in Vietnam, fared poorly in his one attempt at running for office. He fumbled his way through the 1992 debate, even asking the moderator to repeat a question because he didn't have his hearing aid turned on.

Still, he had endured far worse.

During the Vietnam War, Stockdale was a Navy fighter pilot based on the USS Oriskany and flew 201 missions before he was shot down on Sept. 9, 1965. He became the highest-ranking naval officer captured during the war, the Navy said.

Stockdale was taken to Hoa Lo Prison, known as the ``Hanoi Hilton.'' His shoulders were wrenched from their sockets, his leg had been shattered by angry villagers and a torturer, and his back was broken. But he refused to capitulate.

Rather than allow himself to be used in a propaganda film, Stockdale smashed his face with a mahogany stool.

``My only hope was to disfigure myself,'' Stockdale wrote in his 1984 autobiography ``In Love and War.'' The ploy worked, but he spent the next two years in leg irons.

After Ho Chi Minh's death, he broke a glass pane in an interrogation room and slashed his wrists until he passed out in his own blood. After that, captors relented in their harsh treatment of him and his fellow prisoners.

Stockdale spent four years in solitary confinement before he and 115 fellow prisoners were freed in 1973. When asked by a reporter if he knew a man had walked on the moon, Stockdale replied, ``No, I did not.''

``No, I was not surprised. And, no, I did not think getting a man to the moon was the greatest news I had ever heard,'' he wrote in his autobiography.

Stockdale received 26 combat decorations, including the Medal of Honor, the nation's highest medal for valor, in 1976. The citation reads, ``By his heroic action at great peril to himself, he earned the everlasting gratitude of his fellow prisoners and of his country.''

He retired from the military in 1979, one of the most highly decorated officers in U.S. Navy history, and became president of the Citadel, a military college in South Carolina. He left in 1981 to become a senior research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford.

Stockdale came to know Perot through his wife Sybil Stockdale's work establishing an organization on behalf of families of prisoners held during the Vietnam War.

Perot, who was out of the country Tuesday and could not be reached for comment, once described Stockdale as ``a man of steel.''

``He has been hammered on the forge of brutality,'' Perot said.

Stockdale is survived by his wife and four sons.

Link

NPR also has a great story about him here.

Blackthorn · 07-06-2005, 02:34 PM

If this story doesn't make you think about the meaning of Decoration Day (aka Memorial Day) what will? Thank a Veteran for their service to our country before it's too late.

Vice Admiral Stockdale (Ret.) may have been outmatched by the polical slicksters whom he debated in 1992 but there can be no question he was far tougher than either of them.

Rest in peace James Stockdale. May you enjoy the same honor in death that you earned in life.

Elphaba · 07-06-2005, 02:40 PM

He endeared himself to me in his televised debate. Rarely do you get to see someone in politics that is straightforward with a low BS factor.

Don't be too embarassed. I was an adult ready to vote for Perot until he self-destructed.

maleficent · 07-06-2005, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackthorn

Vice Admiral Stockdale (Ret.) may have been outmatched by the polical slicksters whom he debated in 1992 but there can be no question he was far tougher than either of them.

amen to that - and I really dont think he was that outmatched:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/showd...hp?debateid=25

It's an interesting read - and I remember most of it so vividly

Who am I why am I here will always endear him to me... well that and the whole hearing aid thing...

Elphaba · 07-06-2005, 03:22 PM

Mal, thank you so much for finding that link. Reading Gore and Quail doing nothing more than "is too" - "is not", and then reading Stockdale say:

"STOCKDALE: I would like to get in -- I feel like I'm an observer at a pingpong game, where they're talking about well, you know, they're expert professional politicians that massage these intricate plots and know every nuance to 'em. And meantime, we're facing a desperate situation in our economy. I've seen the cost of living double in my lifetime. A new granddaughter was born in my family -- my granddaughter- -3 weeks ago. And according to the statistics that we have -- that is, the Perot group -- the chances of her seeing a doubling of the standard of living are nil. In fact, her children will be dead before another -- this standard of living is doubled. So what the heck! Let's get on with talking about something substantive."

ChistledStone · 07-06-2005, 05:30 PM

All I can say is wow - and that Mr. Jame Stockdale is definitely worth an award from Maddox

. Rest in peace because we can see you haven't had much in your long and fufilling life.

Marvelous Marv · 07-06-2005, 06:35 PM

His legacy to his fellow POWs was that he crafted their guiding philosophy during their captivity. It was "Return with honor."

If you read anything about what he (and his fellow Hanoi Hilton residents) went through, you'll find it hard to complain about anything in your life for awhile.

rockogre · 07-07-2005, 07:01 AM

A true hero! These are the kind of people that make America the country she is. My hat is off and my head bowed in reverence.

RIP Admiral

Marvelous Marv · 07-07-2005, 06:33 PM

If anyone is interested.

http://www.admiralstockdale.us/

analog · 07-07-2005, 10:45 PM

I didn't know attempting suicide got you a medal for valor. Interesting.

Marvelous Marv · 07-08-2005, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

I didn't know attempting suicide got you a medal for valor. Interesting.

It possibly could, if the attempt was your only defense against being used as a propaganda tool. However, that's not what got him our nation's highest military award for valor--one that's frequently awarded posthumously.

P.S. It would appear that you do not know any former POWs, and that you have not read anything about ADM Stockdale's time in captivity.

I can't imagine you insulting Medal of Honor recipients, other POWs, and his memory if you had.

analog · 07-08-2005, 05:59 PM

Already got the highlights... and slicing up your wrists until you pass out is attempting suicide.

Couple that with a medal for valor, and color me confused. I guess he got it for all the rest of it... but since the last major thing he did in captivity before the medal was conferred upon him was his suicide attempt, I'd have thought that would have counted for something more than the other stuff he did.

So... you're saying that, had he succeeded and shuffled off his mortal (albeit beat to shit) coil, we'd still be honoring him? I think he'd be another one of the anonymous fallen.

I have nothing but respect for those who give their lives for their country... and nothing you say to "call me out" on what I have or have not seen/known/experienced will change my opinion. So keep it to the words and not the poster.

Elphaba · 07-08-2005, 07:55 PM

Analog, you have misrepresented the events surrounding Admiral Stockdale's so called "suicide". I encourage everyone to read the link that MM provided in order to form your own opinion. Analog, perhaps you should reread it to catch more than just the "highlights".

(Dayum...was just going to celebrate staying out of trouble for one week).

Frowning Budah · 07-09-2005, 02:35 AM

It is a shame that most of us only knew him from his 1992 Vice Presidential run. Obviously there was a lot more to the man.

ShaniFaye · 07-09-2005, 03:30 AM

I remember, way back then, watching the debates thinking....hehehehe Stockdale, Will Will Stockdale and "no Tony, you may not have a Pony")....(one of my special hugs to anyone who knows what movie that come from, its a must watch for any guy wishing to join our family...in fact Dave and I just watched it last weekend) and I actually thought he was a cute old man. I admit though I had quite forgotten about him until now

rockogre · 07-11-2005, 09:42 AM

The giving of ones own life, whatever you wish to call the method, to avoid giving aid to the enemy is a time honored last ditch act among military members throughout time. It is not suicide to avoid pain or suffering. It is not a cowardly or selfish act. How would this be any different than if he had thrown his body on a mine to protect his men and thus foul the enemies plan?

analog · 07-11-2005, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockogre

The giving of ones own life, whatever you wish to call the method, to avoid giving aid to the enemy is a time honored last ditch act among military members throughout time. It is not suicide to avoid pain or suffering. It is not a cowardly or selfish act. How would this be any different than if he had thrown his body on a mine to protect his men and thus foul the enemies plan?

I didn't call him a coward. The meaning of "selfish" is to do something for yourself, not others. Suicide is a selfish act. Suicide is the taking of one's own life- the reason is irrelevant.

It would indeed be different had he thrown his body on a mine, because that would be giving his life, and selfless, not selfish. There is a difference between giving your life, and taking your life- a huge one. I'm not trying to demonize him, I'm pointing out fact- fact that many would like to gloss over because they're too closed-minded on the issue.

I didn't say anything about the man himself. I said he attempted suicide, and I questioned a medal of valor going to a man who would have taken his life...

...as I said before- had he succeeded in taking his life, his name would have instantly been forgotten. If you want to ignore that simply because he didn't bleed fast enough or didn't do the job correctly the first time, and lived anyway, then that's up to you.

07-06-2005, 02:34 PM	#2 (permalink)
Blackthorn Beware the Mad Irish Location: Wish I was on the N17...	If this story doesn't make you think about the meaning of Decoration Day (aka Memorial Day) what will? Thank a Veteran for their service to our country before it's too late. Vice Admiral Stockdale (Ret.) may have been outmatched by the polical slicksters whom he debated in 1992 but there can be no question he was far tougher than either of them. Rest in peace James Stockdale. May you enjoy the same honor in death that you earned in life. __________________ What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?

07-06-2005, 05:30 PM	#6 (permalink)
ChistledStone Crazy Location: Australia	All I can say is wow - and that Mr. Jame Stockdale is definitely worth an award from Maddox . Rest in peace because we can see you haven't had much in your long and fufilling life. __________________ A.minor.fall.then.a.major.lift

07-07-2005, 07:01 AM	#8 (permalink)
rockogre I aim to misbehave! Location: SW Oklahoma	A true hero! These are the kind of people that make America the country she is. My hat is off and my head bowed in reverence. RIP Admiral __________________ Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

07-08-2005, 05:59 PM	#12 (permalink)
analog Banned	Already got the highlights... and slicing up your wrists until you pass out is attempting suicide. Couple that with a medal for valor, and color me confused. I guess he got it for all the rest of it... but since the last major thing he did in captivity before the medal was conferred upon him was his suicide attempt, I'd have thought that would have counted for something more than the other stuff he did. So... you're saying that, had he succeeded and shuffled off his mortal (albeit beat to shit) coil, we'd still be honoring him? I think he'd be another one of the anonymous fallen. I have nothing but respect for those who give their lives for their country... and nothing you say to "call me out" on what I have or have not seen/known/experienced will change my opinion. So keep it to the words and not the poster. Last edited by analog; 07-08-2005 at 06:13 PM..

07-09-2005, 03:30 AM	#15 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I remember, way back then, watching the debates thinking....hehehehe Stockdale, Will Will Stockdale and "no Tony, you may not have a Pony")....(one of my special hugs to anyone who knows what movie that come from, its a must watch for any guy wishing to join our family...in fact Dave and I just watched it last weekend) and I actually thought he was a cute old man. I admit though I had quite forgotten about him until now __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

07-06-2005, 02:40 PM	#3 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	He endeared himself to me in his televised debate. Rarely do you get to see someone in politics that is straightforward with a low BS factor. Don't be too embarassed. I was an adult ready to vote for Perot until he self-destructed.

07-06-2005, 03:22 PM	#5 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Mal, thank you so much for finding that link. Reading Gore and Quail doing nothing more than "is too" - "is not", and then reading Stockdale say: "STOCKDALE: I would like to get in -- I feel like I'm an observer at a pingpong game, where they're talking about well, you know, they're expert professional politicians that massage these intricate plots and know every nuance to 'em. And meantime, we're facing a desperate situation in our economy. I've seen the cost of living double in my lifetime. A new granddaughter was born in my family -- my granddaughter- -3 weeks ago. And according to the statistics that we have -- that is, the Perot group -- the chances of her seeing a doubling of the standard of living are nil. In fact, her children will be dead before another -- this standard of living is doubled. So what the heck! Let's get on with talking about something substantive."

07-06-2005, 06:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	His legacy to his fellow POWs was that he crafted their guiding philosophy during their captivity. It was "Return with honor." If you read anything about what he (and his fellow Hanoi Hilton residents) went through, you'll find it hard to complain about anything in your life for awhile.

07-07-2005, 06:33 PM	#9 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	If anyone is interested. http://www.admiralstockdale.us/

07-07-2005, 10:45 PM	#10 (permalink)
analog Banned	I didn't know attempting suicide got you a medal for valor. Interesting.

07-08-2005, 07:55 PM	#13 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Analog, you have misrepresented the events surrounding Admiral Stockdale's so called "suicide". I encourage everyone to read the link that MM provided in order to form your own opinion. Analog, perhaps you should reread it to catch more than just the "highlights". (Dayum...was just going to celebrate staying out of trouble for one week).

07-09-2005, 02:35 AM	#14 (permalink)
Frowning Budah Slave of Fear	It is a shame that most of us only knew him from his 1992 Vice Presidential run. Obviously there was a lot more to the man.

07-11-2005, 09:42 AM	#16 (permalink)
rockogre I aim to misbehave! Location: SW Oklahoma	The giving of ones own life, whatever you wish to call the method, to avoid giving aid to the enemy is a time honored last ditch act among military members throughout time. It is not suicide to avoid pain or suffering. It is not a cowardly or selfish act. How would this be any different than if he had thrown his body on a mine to protect his men and thus foul the enemies plan? __________________ Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom