maleficent

Everytime i turn on the news these days, I'm getting snippets of the Brooke Shields vs Tom Cruise battle that has been going on.

Ya see, for some post partum depression, Brookie took an anti-depressant under a doctor's care, and mentioned this in a book that she wrote to help other women... Tom thought this was irresponsible of her take a drug for post partum depression, even going so far as to call psychiatry a pseudo science with regards to PPD.

What he said was:
CNN, on Anderson Cooper's show, had a snippet of the interview with Tom Cruise by Matt Lauer - and it was really appalling to watch - it was looking like Tom needed to be medicated because he really looked like he was off his rocker.
(I can't find that link,)

Today Brooke fires back...
Brooke Shields Fires Back at Tom Cruise's stance on psychiatric drugs

NEW YORK (AP) _ Brooke Shields took aim at Tom Cruise's "Today" show rant against antidepressants, saying the drugs helped her survive feelings of hopelessness after the birth of her first child.

"I'm going to take a wild guess and say that Mr. Cruise has never suffered from postpartum depression," she wrote in an editorial published Friday in The New York Times.

Cruise had criticized Shields for taking the drugs before his appearance on "Today" last week, but became particularly passionate about the issue in an interview with Matt Lauer.

"You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do," Cruise told Lauer.

He went on to say there was no such thing as chemical imbalances that need to be corrected with drugs, and that depression could be treated with exercise and vitamins. Shields called those remarks "a disservice to mothers everywhere."

Shields said she considered swallowing a bottle of pills or jumping out the window at the lowest point of her depression following the birth of daughter Rowan Francis in 2003. A doctor later attributed her feelings to a plunge in her estrogen and progesterone levels and prescribed the antidepressant Paxil.

"If any good can come of Mr. Cruise's ridiculous rant, let's hope that it gives much-needed attention to a serious disease," she wrote.

Shields described her post-childbirth experiences in "Down Came the Rain: My Journey Through Postpartum Depression."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So the topic for discussion -- What are your thoughts on drugs for depression... Good thing? Bad thing? Last Resort or just go for it from the beginning and save yourself a lot of trouble.

Turn on the television at any hour, and you are going to find at least one ad for a drug for depression... What's your thoughts on that...

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lurkette

As someone who's on antidepressants, I'm probably admittedly biased. I think they are a valuable tool in treating depression, but should not be the only tool. There are tons of clinical studies showing that exercise + therapy is as effective as Prozac at treating major depressive disorder. But a lot of times, people need the drugs to get them over the initial symptoms of depression so they can even deal with the underlying causes and start to take action. And there IS such a thing as a chemical imablance. That's just empirically true.

As for advertising, I am SO against advertising of drugs. Doctors should be the best judges of what medications people need, and I think advertising creates undue pressure on them to prescribe this or that drug that someone thinks they need. Add to that the pressure on them from pharmaceutical companies themselves, and I think the medical system is just overrun with pressure to prescribe when it may not be necessary.

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JustJess

^^^^ What she said. Anti-depressants are only a tool, and should be used as such. I don't think it should be the first choice, but it doesn't have to be the last one, either. It can really help, but it's not for everyone.

Tom Cruise... now there's a guy who needs some sedation. He's fucking crazy, and not in the "therapy can help" kind of way - more the white-jacket-and-muzzle kind of way.

As for ads/drug reps... oily. They make me want to wash. It's just wrong to have that kind of influence over someone's care.

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Glory's Sun

Tom has gone off the deep end. I think his whole "Drugs are bad" statements were made just to cover up his coke habit...


Anyway, I think the drugs are there and are manufactured for a reason. Sure there are always a natural way to help things but in some cases those aren't enough. The best bet is to talk to the doctor and/or psychiatrist and let them determine what course of action you should take. If you listen to Tom Cruise on what to do.. you're gonna be in worse shape than when you started.

smooth

What has not entered the debate, from what I've seen, is that there is a large body of psychologists who agree with Cruise's points and disagree with the psychiatric position.

Some sociologists even go so far as to say that mental disorder is really about controlling deviance from the norm...in that regard, chemical imbalances are not empirically proven in the sense that lurkette meant...they are not problematic to anyone except the "normal" thinkers in society. If you want to read up on that position, I think you might find Thomas Schaz' work interesting...but I believe I've misspelled his last name.

Anyway, many therapists do not agree with chemical therapy but they are not aligned with the medical community, as psychiatry is, and consequently do not have the same political or scientific capital as MDs.

I'm really intersted that the first two posts supporting the medical establishment's position are from women...are you two aware of what the medical community has done to women? I could provide some information if you'd like...but it isn't directly relevant to this thread.

Perhaps what makes it relevant is that a large number of the people diagnosed as depressed and with mental disorder are women. Not a conspiracy, mind you, but a consequence of medical paternalism. Lurkette, I imagine you actually might be interested in this aspect if you dug into it judging by what you've had to say about feminism in the past...

EDIT:
in a nutshell, Cruise is not crazy...his views are shared by a very significant portion, if not the numerical majority, of mental health practicioners. but the media is certainly portraying his position as being off the deep end...start watching the people who come out to oppose him. lack of support is not because it doesn't exist, but because the news is choosing not to show it.

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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

maleficent

I can go both ways on medication for depression... a few years back, I bit the bullet and went into talk to a shrink about some things that were bugging me -- about 10 minutes into it I realized that shrinkage was totally not for me -but what irked me was as I was walking out the doctor handed me a prescription for an anti-depressant. (I wasn't depressed.. moody yes, but not depressed)

A colleague at one of my clients about two years ago got dumped by "the one" or at lest who she thought was "the one" and was a little down about it-- she went to her doctor and got an antidepressant because she was she broke up with here boyfriend- -what's wrong with being sad for a while - your life has changed? Deal with it-- drugs seem to be a way of not dealing with the current situation.

I think that some of these drugs are way too much of a quick fix in the fast food society that we live in - -we want everything yesterday... I would believe that there are better solutions to everything, they just need to be found...

Then again, if they made a pill for self confidence and self esteem, I'd be first on my block to take it... because nothing else has worked. I have no issues with Brooke or anyone else taking antidepressants if they feel it's the right thing to do for their given situation., I would not be comfortable iwth it on a long term basis.

another colleague at the same client was on Paxil (or some paxil like drug) for a good while - i'd venture to say years... it started out as post partum depression, but her youngest was now starting kindergarden...that seems a little long. She didnt take them every day, and you could see really distinct personality changes when she didn't take them and she claimed that she felt completely different too - but never could say if it was good different or bad different. That long a time on a drug has got to have adverse effects on the body and the mind.

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maleficent

[QUOTE=smooth]in a nutshell, Cruise is not crazy...his QUOTE]

but the Today show interview kinda says he's smokin' something...
His rant is about 7 1/2 minutes into it...
Video Link
Some of his arguments make sense - but to say that he knows the history of psychiatry is kinda laughable...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In tense moment, Cruise calls Lauer ‘glib’
'War of the Worlds' star assaults psychiatry, says he's ‘really happy’
NEW YORK - Tom Cruise was all smiles talking about his movie and his fiancee on NBC’s “Today” show, but the smile disappeared when Matt Lauer mentioned Cruise’s earlier criticism of Brooke Shields for taking anti-depressants.

Cruise got very serious and kept saying “Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt” every time Lauer said he knew people who were helped by anti-depressants.

Shields took them for her post-partum depression. As a Scientologist, Cruise doesn’t believe in those kinds of drugs or therapy of any kind.

At one point Cruise told Lauer, “You’re glib” and said Lauer didn’t know what he was talking about. The star launched into a detailed discussion of the use of the prescription drug Ritalin.

“It's very impressive to listen to you,” Lauer replied, “because clearly, you've done the homework. And you know the subject.”

“And you should,” Cruise retorted. He also told Lauer, “You don’t know the history of psychiatry. I do.”


The NBC anchor told Cruise he had known people who had been helped by psychiatric drugs. Cruise then accused Lauer of advocating the use of Ritalin.

Lauer asked Cruise how he could get more people to understand Scientology, the controversial religion practiced by Cruise and other celebrities like John Travolta.

“You just communicate about it," Cruise said. “If I want to know something, I go and find out. Because I don't talk about things that I don't understand.”

‘A great time in my life’
The actor was far more upbeat when it came to discussing his recent marriage proposal to “Batman Begins” actress Katie Holmes. He said he couldn't care less about some cynics' suggestions that his over displays of affection are just for show.

“You know what? There’s always cynics. There always has been. There always will be,” said Cruise, who hasn’t been shy about professing his love for Holmes. “I have never worried ... about what other people think and what other people say.”

Cruise and Holmes went public with their romance in April, smooching and posing for photographers in Rome. They recently became engaged.

Many have doubted the romance — the words “publicity stunt” have rained down on the couple like an alien invasion as Cruise has been busy promoting his new film, “War of the Worlds,” directed by Steven Spielberg, which opens on June 29.

“I have to tell you. It’s just a great time in my life,” Cruise told NBC. “I’m really happy. And, you know, I’m engaged. I’m going to be married. I can't restrain myself.”

The 42-year-old actor, whose marriages to Mimi Rogers and Nicole Kidman ended in divorce, declined to say what the 26-year-old Holmes has brought to his life that wasn’t there in the past.

“I don’t want to compare things,” Cruise said. “It’s that thing where you just — in life when it just happens. ... You meet someone. And it’s — I can’t even describe it.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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iamnormal

Sense when have Tom and Brooke become experts psychiatrist?
Neither one should be telling people what to do. Saying what they did and how it worked for them is as far as they should go.

Anyway their is ECT.

smooth

Mal, I'm curious why you think that Cruise knowing the history of the pschiatric discipline is possibly laughable?

His interviewer even mentioned that it was clear Cruise had done his homework. He may have taken courses or just read up on it's history. I hinted at a deeper (and not so rosy) history of pschiatry in my earlier post; how the discipline became mainstream and medically acceptable is publicly obtainable.

the short of it is that people who believed in such things as mental disorders eventually obtained their medical degrees and banked on the medical establishment's prestige to usher in their view of medicine.

psychiatrists are a relatively small group of professionals--not really fully accepted by the medical profession and not always looked up to by the pschology profession. But their medical degrees and substances that "work" (or ease the pain) are very enticing to the public.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

filtherton

I think cruise has a point. How many kids are on ritalin today? I think pills are beneficial in many instances, but i personally don't find much of what psychiatry is any more convincing than astrology. Up until recently according to the APA, homosexuality was a good reason to be commited. These are the same people who brought us the lobotomy as universal cure-all. We tend to accept their legitmacy, as smooth pointed out, because they tell us that they are legitimate.

Roark

I think in many cases in our "fast food" society drugs are often perscriped as a quick band aid to the problem and the actual cause of the symptons are never really addressed. No doubt drugs can be a useful tool in helping to alleviate the symptoms and help you deal with whatever the issue is. Should little kids be put on Ritalin because he acts out in class I don't think so I know I sure as heck did as a kid and I don't now. Who knows what 20+ years of taking that med could really do to you.

I think previous posters are correct that we as a society want things fixed right now and "hey you know that commercial I saw on TV I think I need that drug i feel that way sometimes" doesn't help matters any. Maybe it's the drug companines excerting pressure on the professionals to perscribe their drugs but i'd hope that the medical professionals would realize that yes maybe that drug could work but it shouldn't be a long term solution and offer other alternatives or a combination of solutions. Then again that could be a catch 22 if you don't appease the corporate powers that be.

Bottom line I think they can help but I don't think they should be used in a file it and forget it band aid type fashion.

Ustwo

I am all for druging Tom Cruise, be since he knows about the space aliens that cause depression, I'm sure he knows best.

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Grasshopper Green

As someone who has suffered longterm depression and is currently on medication, I'd have to say I'm biased, as lurkette did. However, I didn't get meds as a quick fix; I avoided them for years and years because I thought people just got on them because they were feeling "down" and I didn't want to do that. However, they have helped me tremendously. I am actually coming off of them after my current prescription is up; I feel that after a year I am ready to again take life on without meds.

I think the whole Brooke Shields/Tom Cruise thing is utterly ridiculous. No one should be basing decisions on their mental health based on what celebrities say. Every person needs to find out what is best for THEM, not what is best for another person. I really don't even know why this is newsworthy; perhaps it's a slow season for things that actually matter, not just a celebrity feud?

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Pip

I've never been on drugs for depression, although my doc wanted me to take some after a ten minute consultation. So at least she is a bit prescription-happy. My attitude to any medication is to use it only if I might die or suffer horribly or get nasty complications otherwise. Pain killers for random headaches are excepted. Maybe it's stupid, but I kind of like to take the time to work through my illnesses, mental and physical, on my own. I've chosen a lifestyle that allows me to do so, I understand if a busier person takes flu medecine or an anti-depressant to keep up. Their choice.

(I hope I don't sound too smug, when I read through the post it struck me that it sounded more smug than laid-back. I need to work on my writing style in english. Damn all you great writers here on TFP for making me self-concious! )

Elphaba

I have a very different perspective than Smooth, but it comes from a particular bias. My masters degree is in counseling psychology and I was in practice for about five years. I agree that the "talking therapy" can be highly successful for a situational depression (as described by Mal of the broken relationship) and it can also be useful in conjunction with chemical treatment for a clinical depression such as Shield's had.

Contrary to what Smooth claimed, chemical inbalances have been empirically proven. Although psychologists cannot dispense drugs, psychopharmacology is required course work. Research over the last decades on the inner workings of the brain provides compelling evidence of the chemistry of "mental" disorders.

I have read Thomas Shatz and he goes so far as to say that schizophrenia is not a mental disorder at all, but simply a sane person reacting to an insane world. I would quote from the text, but it and all of my other psych texts are on a slow boat to Romania. (Who also treat schizophrenia chemically).

As far as Cruise claiming he knows the history of psychiatry, I would like to think that I know a little something of it as well. Freud was the father of psychology and his psychoanalytic theory was the original basis of the medical specialization of psychiatry. The use of drugs were never a part of that belief system and only a serendipitous event led to further research in chemical treatment. It was ugly and sometimes bizarre, but no more so than the applying of leeches for all manner of maladies.

None of my associates in psychology or sociology eschewed the use of drug treatment when used appropriately. Which says nothing other than Smooth and I ran in different circles. I did see a great deal of inappropriately prescribed drugs, but I can't attribute that to an entire class of the medical profession simply because I worked for a bad psychiatrist.

I have seen something akin to a miracle with the chemical treatment of clinical depression on many occasions. It is a remarkable and life saving tool when used appropriately. And may I add...I think Cruise is an idiot to profess to be an expert on depression specifically and psychology in general.

raeanna74

Just a quick note as to my experience with medication for mental disorder. Hubby for one had a lot of depression following his head injury and coma. Much of which was certain because of the physical trauma and dealing with time missing from his life where he had no memory of it (i.e. was comatose.). Also he was taking dilantin, antisiezure medication, that slowed his whole system down, not just his brain and he was gaining weight rapidly despite efforts to the contrary. He spoke to a Dr. who promptly gave him Zoloft. I normally check all the medications that we are given for contraindications and interactions with other medications. I failed to do so with this one and wish badly that I hadn't. He started out with a low dose, then after about a week it was to be doubled. The day after the dose was doubled he had a siezure. THEN I checked the contraindications:
"Before taking Zoloft, tell your doctor if you have had seizures; You may not be able to take Zoloft, or you may need a dosage adjustment or special monitoring during treatment."
I think the Dr was a bit quick to prescribe it without suggesting any counseling or anything else. It actually caused hubby a second siezure putting him in the "siezure disorder" classification and putting him on antisiezure medication for the rest of his life.

Another example of overmedicating. My Dad had a great deal of trouble with depression. He was put on many pain meds for his lupus as well as multiple antidepressants. He got worse and worse to the point of about monthly being arrested for attempted suicide or being taken to the hospital for the treatment because he'd attempted it. Finally he was sick of all the screwing around. No one wanted to deal with his problems and just wanted to medicate them away. He finally decided to take control, dropped all the medications with his wife's and pastor's close support. It was difficult for a while as he weaned himself off but they were strong supporters for him. When he was finally off everything and only taking mild over the counter pain relievers he wasn't dealing with the depression nearly as badly and the pain was somewhat bareable in contrast to the mental anguish he did not have to deal with anymore. It's difficult to say what particular medication or combination was so detrimental to him but since he is better off it's obvious there was a problem and the Dr's were unwilling to work with him.

The biggest problem is that when Dr's are presented with psychological problems it is somewhat out of their realm of practice. Those that I know would much rather deal with concrete physical problems and are afraid to even delve into possible physical causes of the psycholigical trouble. SOOO they medicate. Some people are happy with that and don't bother the Dr anymore. For those that aren't - they need close supervision and patience from their Dr to solve the problems that are threatening their peace of mind.

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Elphaba

Amen to that, Raenna. You couldn't have said it better about when and where drugs are necessary. Follow up is absolutely necessary as required by law. Sloppy work by the medical/psychiatric profession continues, possibly because of the patients wanting a "get-fixed-quick-Rx." The pharmaceutical industry promotes this in their ever present advertising.

snowy

As someone who suffers from clinical depression, I think SOME medication is a good thing. But there are limits. Medication, in my mind, is meant to be used as a crutch--something that will help you get out of the deep, dark hole of depression. As I also suffer from anxiety, my medication helps keep all of my symptoms in check. Yes, I have gone without for periods of time, but for the sake of myself it's easier for me to just stay on the medication (meaning no chance of backsliding, which is the worst thing ever, I think). I do practice alternative therapies for my anxiety (yoga, meditation, biofeedback) and have tried counseling and other forms of therapy for my depression--but the fact is that nothing is as effective as medication. I would have liked to use my medication as a temporary crutch and to not have to take it every day, but the fact is that I do. The last thing I want in the world is to be medicated, but as it's the only way I'm a fully functional person, it's something I have to do.

I wonder if Tom Cruise realizes that for so many of us, medication is the last resort. Somehow I don't see vitamin therapy as helpful, though keeping the body healthy is helpful. However, as someone with clinical depression will tell you, trying to get yourself to do anything, anything at all, is like climbing Mount Everest.

It's obvious to me Cruise has never climbed Everest.

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smooth

Elphaba,

I'll clarify something because you (accidentally) missprepresented what I stated.
I pointed out that chemical imbalances haven't been empirically proven in the way that lurkette implied--I never claimed that differences in brain chemistry don't exist.
That is, deviance from the norm does not equate empirical proof that the person has a mental disorder. Mental disorders are socially constructed...human beings take the emperical evidence of differences in brain chemistry and make meaning from that. I could never prove that someone has schizophrenia by measuring brain chemistry any more than I can prove one's maturity level.

If one could prove mental disorder in the empirical way that I understand you and lurkette are making it out to be, we wouldn't need mental health professionals to diagnose disorders--we'd need lab techs.


(edit in bold)

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Elphaba

Thank you for the clarification, Smooth. I did, indeed misunderstand your meaning.

Nimetic

Tom's thoughts are interesting. I'm waiting to hear from a few more celebrities before I make up my mind on the matter.

Nimetic

Seriously now... if we look at medicine as in terms of an applied science - it should be pointed out that the whole point of the scientific method is that there are no proofs. Everything is open to question, testing, retesting and debate. Private companies do skew this process a bit - however it's pretty hard to take Tom seriously unless he mentions the studies he's using to back his argument. We should not have debate here without reference to observations. Medical conclusions can only be drawn by watching the effect on a decent number of people over a decent period of time - not by sessions with Oprah.

For myself - it's also hard to take seriously Toms interest in observing the physical world without bias when he takes a religious position based on faith. That is not to say however that there are not some excellent religious thinkers, but there are few I believe from Scientology - a group that resists exposure of it's own internal teachings.

Finally, the statement "scientifically we can proove that" in particular shows a total lack of understanding of this process, or concept of doubt. And what of the inclusive "we"? That irks me. Biochemists working with actors for the common good?What research has Tom done. None. Talking isn't research. Acting isn't research. Even the act of reading scientific papers is not research.

Tom has all the intellectual depth and wisdom that I would expect of somebody whose ideal companion is a decade plus younger.

streak_56

I am not going to argue "Toms" or "Brookes" side. I am going to present my side. I was prescribed to go on antidepressants, certain aspects of them were enticing. Such as when I would go out, I pretty much felt somewhat good, but it was more emotionless than anything. When I went off antidepressants for a couple of weeks, I was more emotional and I enjoyed more of the things that I usually enjoyed.

My experience was that I would on antids (for short) for a couple of weeks, and then go off for a couple of weeks. I did this for about four months, until I just decided to go at my depression by myself, without antids. I just kept busy and tried to keep my mind off of being angry/sad.

As I was in school I would get more depressed probably from stress and having no outlet. And in the summer I wouldn't be as depressed because I was too busy to be depressed. I see logic in both points of view because they do provide certains plus' for each side of the argument.

Tom is taking a more natural side to the argument. Exercise + Vitamins will solve the chemical balance. Brookes was a more biological approach. Taking antids did help, they're meant to help and they are good for some people while for others it doesn't help as much. I had a friend that commited suicide on anitds, she said that it made her feel worse. And from my own experience, I still have horrible depression and I took another approach to solving my problems.

Maybe theres an ideal middle ground that would work, but I don't know. I work with myself, trying different things all the time. And that seems to work well. I haven't really gotten over my issues, but I live with them everyday and I've gotten use to them. So maybe thats my approach. Live with it until you become comfortable with yourself and then you'll start moving forward.

Seeker

My overall view is Tom is on the extreme end of a scale. Just because he may understand something of depression or disorders does not mean that everybody is suffering the same. I think depression needs to be handled on a case by case basis. Yes, depression can be handled without medication but sometimes long periods of stress and depression can turn off the 'feel good' chemicals in the brain and antidepressants can help to kick-start that process again so you can handle the climb back up. I am also aware of some mental disorders that need the regulation of medication so extreme swings are limited for daily functioning and safety of some patients.

I agree strongly with raeanna74 & Elphaba that too many times a pill is a quick fix. I believe there should be more focus on looking at the thought processes that produce the conflicts responsible for most situational depression.

My family has a history of depression. My father is on medication (although I think it's the wrong one for him and it is not helping him at all), my brother was a manic depressive, never diagnosed until after he shot himself in the head, and I have struggled with depression all my life.

I have not been one to take medication for it. I believe mine to be more situational and have turned to understanding my thought processes to handle it. It took a lot of work on my part, and I went through many psychologists... After five years and finding a psychologist I believed I could work *with* (because they can't fix you on their own ) I have not been depressed for over a year or two, and I'm not looking back! I believe I have won my battle...

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Elphaba

A major amen from me, Seeker. The "talking therapy" is only useful if you find the psychologist that you can connect with. I was able to connect with most of my clients, but I admit I was repulsed by some and "recused" myself.

You are doing marvelous work. Good on you!