NoSoup

Specifically Permitted: Cylinder fountains, cone fountains, sparklers containing no magnesium, chlorate or perchlorate; snakes containing no mercury, small smoke devices.

Specifically Prohibited: Firecrackers, wheels, torpedoes, skyrockets, roman candles, aerial salutes, and bombs.


If I really got ambitious, I would take pictures... but although apparently illegal, my neighbors had a field day with Skyrockets, roman candles, and firecrackers - my yard is littered with the remains of the bottle rockets and firecrackers.

I would like to point out, in case you missed it, that Bombs are specifically prohibited here in Wisconsin

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shakran

No, it's not. If you fuck up while not wearing a seat belt and roll your car, you get hurt, or possibly die.

If you fuck up while messing with fireworks and shoot them at someone, they get hurt, or possibly die.

I'm not saying fireworks should or should not be illegal. But to say that legislating a device that you can hurt others with is the same as legislating a device that you can only hurt YOURSELF with is absurd.

Gilda

1. When someone sets something of fire due to carelessness, the fire department responds, at no direct cost to the person who set the fire. Likewise, fire department paramedics responding to fireworks related injuries incur a cost to the city or county not paid by the person carelessly setting off fireworks. These costs give the city and county a vested interest in reducing the number of fireworks related fires and injuries.

2. A home set on fire seldom affects just the person who was careless. Frequently there are others who live in that home. Fires can spread to dry grasses, other homes, and cause property damage and physical harm to others. Firefighters are often injured or even killed fighting structure fires.

3. Private ambulance companies have to have extra staff on duty during the days around the fourth of July because of people injuring themselves or others. These people are unable to spend the holiday with their loved ones.

4. ER's get crowded and often backed up, affecting everyone who needs emergent care, and requiring extra staffing.

When someone starts a fire or injures themselves and calls 911 due to misusing fireworks, they've affected other people, possibly a great many other people, both directly and indirectly.

Where I live fire department calls increased by a factor of 3 during the first few days of July, mostly as a result of misuse of fireworks. My wife's ambulance company had its calls doubled.

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guthmund

But that's true of any accident, isn't it? I mean, an accidental fire is an accidental fire is an accidental fire, right? The numbers are only outrageous because the pool that's drawn on is so much larger and the time frame those numbers fit into is so much smaller. If everyone decided to sky dive on Sept 23rd, then I imagine the numbers for "deaths due to sky diving mishap" would double or triple. I also imagine (if I can take it the other direction for a moment) that if fireworks were allowed to be purchased and used year round (Arkansas restricts sale to two times a year) those numbers would even out.

Are they dangerous? Sure they can be, but what isn't? The federal government has no problem with people using guns as long as they abide by the rules. The local government has no problem with people using guns as long as they abide by the rules. Once you break a rule, however, you're fair game.

Why isn't it the same with fireworks? I'm a responsible adult. Why aren't I allowed to use fireworks in my yard as long as I abide by the rules? If I set someone's house on fire or blow someone's hand off with an errant firework, I should be punished and will gladly pay the consequences.

The point is, I should be punished only after the rules have been broken, not that there's the possibility I might break them.

Set guidelines, strengthen the already existing rules, but to ban them outright? That seems a little heavy handed to me.

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billege

The debate is not a new one, or at least the arguments I'm seeing are not the least bit creative.

It's the old: "Address the item, not the behavior" plan of action.

You got a problem with people shooting people? >>Ban firearms.
You got a problem with people driving and using cells >>Ban cells in cars.
You got a problem with people being assholes with fireworks >> Ban fireworks.
You got a problem with teenage drinking >>Raise drinking age. (Ban teenage drinking)
You got a problem with teenage pregnancy >>Ban sex education. (Oh wait, we're trying that plan in schools right now...."abstinence only"....right....)
You got a problem with "insert item here" >> Ban item.

It's an effective way to reduce the incidence of whatever's bothering you, at least until you start thinking about it deeply. Then most of it falls apart.

There's no way I'm dumb enough to get involved in a debate on firearms laws (in this thread anyway), drinking laws, or the effectiveness of fireworks laws. I will debate the principle of banning an artifact rather than the behavior.

The article linked earlier about a guy driving a truck getting shot in the head by a firework is a fine example of bad behavior. I do not see it as an example of how fireworks are inherently evil. But, I see how someone else could see it that way. I don’t agree, of course, but I can see where false logic would lead someone else.
The bottle rocket didn't shoot itself into the guy's truck. The 8 kids with no supervision did. They particular tools they used certainly have more potential for damage than say, a bag of cotton balls.

We could say, “Use fireworks like an ASSHOLE, and we’ll treat you like one." But, that’s too reactive for some people, so we ban fireworks. I shot off a ton of fireworks on the 3rd. It had rained 4 days in the previous week, so everything was nice and moist. Had it been really dry (like it was before all that good rain) I’d like to think I’m smart enough to have sucked it up and not shot them. Anyway, I aimed the stuff into an empty field, and didn’t hold any thing while it went off; except some sparklers. My wife and I enjoyed them. When we were done, I wet down the big tubes (the display tubes that shoot sparks and stuff up in the air) and we swept up all the crap in the street from our little show. Then we threw the stuff away. That was socially responsible behavior.
If only more people understood that everyday actions shape how other people react.


Unfortunately, we can't ban people with anti-social, or irresponsible, behavior patterns. Instead we try and regulate the materials they have available to be irresponsible with. I’m afraid to break it to the general population, but after seeing some of the idiots I’ve seen through life, we’re not going to solve our issues like this until we put a large number of people in padded rooms.

I’ve seen dumbasses that can cause problems with leaf blowers. Guy blowing leaves into his neighbor’s yard, neighbor does not appreciate this. Is the solution to ban leaf blowers?

No, but we could draw and argue piddley little examples like this all day. The point never changes. Society can suck it up and attempt to address behavior, or ban things until there’s nothing left to get in trouble with. We’ll see where it goes, but it should be obvious where we’re going at this point in our society.


Edit:
I came accross this just now.
article


Now that shit, that pisses me off. It still wasn't the gun though, it was the asshole who shot it in the air. Man I hate that. I hope by some miracle they find that guy.

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MSD

Salutes are a mixture of black powder (or equivalent, I like Pyrodex because it's more powerful and smoke-free,) and magnesium dust that flash bright white and produce a distinct report.


The ironic thing about fireworks laws is that people like me will just make what they can't buy. At least I have the good sense to set them off in remote areas where I'm unlikely to be reported for acts of terrorism or injure anyone other than myself in case of an accident.

cellophanedeity

You can't ban stupidity, so you have no choice but to ban the tools of the stupid, even if it hurts the intelligent.

Cynthetiq

even the Chinese cannot celebrate Chinese New Year's with firecrackers to scare away the Dancing Dragon here in NYC.

Guiliani did a huge crackdown a number of years ago and it's stayed on the DL ever since.

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Gilda

No, the pool is exactly the same size. The numbers become outrageous due to the fact that people in the US associate Independance Day with fireworks.
My Filipino neighbor was remarking the other day that she finds it strange that people set off fireworks on the 4th of July but not Christmas. Even if fireworks were legal year round there would very likely be a big spike around the 4th.

This seems to be good reasoning for banning fireworks year round--when fireworks are legal, emergency calls to the fire department triple, and other emergency services spike.

Apples and oranges. There are so many differences between guns and fireworks that they don't belong in the same neighborhood of debate.

Wouldn't it be better not to have the fire set or the hand injured in the first place? Laws banning fireworks aren't about responsible use, they're about irresponsible use. In the process of curbing the latter, the former end up getting caught in the web.

Sure. And if fireworks are banned, you are breaking the rules merely buy setting them off. The point is to prevent the unnecessary fires and injuries in the first place, rather than reacting to massive, widespread misuse after the fact.

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Gilda

Those aren't even remotely parallel. First, not gonna address guns, for reasons stated above.

People driving and using cells: Nobody is trying to ban cell phones as a result, or even cell phones in cars. It is the irresponsible and dangerous activity of using a cell phone while driving that has been banned in many places. This is exactly what people, including you, have been arguing here--address the dangerous behavior, not the item.

Teenage drinking: This one again, doesn't really support your basic argument. Raising the drinking age isn't banning the item, alcohol, it's restricting behavior to those who are old enough to do it responsibly. Note that I am not debating drinking age laws here, merely pointing out that this example does not support your basic argument.

Teenage pregnancy: What item is being banned in your argument that when misused leads to pregnancy? I don't get this one at all.

Fair enough. Most of your examples don't involve banning an artifact anyway.

Has anyone argued that fireworks are inherently evil? I don't see that anywhere.

Unfortunately there are a lot of inconsiderate and stupid people out there. Let me counter with an anecdote of my own. The townhome complex where I live has communal mailboxes all located in a central kiosk. Grace and I happen to own and rent several of the units, so we like to take a little pride in the appearance of the grounds. The mailboxes get stuffed with news print flyers and other direct mail advertising every day, and some jerks had the habit of throwing it on the ground rather than taking it home or walking to the dumpster, both easy solutions. So we put a large trash can right next to the mail boxes for people to throw their junk mail flyers in, with a notice regarding what can be thrown in it (flyers only, no envelopes and no garbage) and it worked like a charm. No more litter. July second, I go to get the mail, and there are spent fireworks in there, thrown on top of the flyers, with more thrown on top, a big fire hazard.

Does this indicate a need to ban fireworks? Of course not, the irresponsible behavior of one person or one incident doesn't necessarily reflect that of the whole group. Nor does responsible behavior on the part of one person neccesarily reflect that of the whole group. We have to look at the behavior of the group as a whole before deciding what to do regarding a certain problem.

In my community, fire calls tripled during the four days fireworks were legal, and emergency calls at Grace's ambulance service at least doubled. This is evidence of how this particular community handles fireworks as a whole, ie, poorly.

Exactly.

In the case of fireworks, it seems a reasonable solution to me.

Let me refer back to this argument:

I see the same anecdotal argument over and over again as regards to a great many things that are restricted/banned in our society, or rules that apply to the general populace. The basic argument goes like this:

If I can do activity/use item A safely and responsibly, then activity/item A shouldn't be banned/regulated/restricted/illegal. This is arguing by anecdote. One good example is no more compelling than one bad example.

Laws have to apply the same to everyone, so it's neccesary to determine what the global effect of all people who engage in activity A is on society as a whole, and balance the benefit of that activity to society and to the individual against the harm that activity causes the community as a whole.

When there are no basic human rights involved--and there aren't any here--It becomes a matter of what the effect would be and where to draw the line. If it were a few idiots causing a small number of problems, then the answer is exactly as you propose. When there are so many people behaving irresponsibly that fire calls triple, it becomes a problem for the community. I think banning is a reasonable solution.

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Frowning Budah

I love it. Firework bans are one of those laws that sounds good, but most people don't like the law so they just ignore it and becuase everryone is doing it the cops pretty much ignore it at well.
Exploding fireworks are suppose to be illegal here, but they were shooting them off right next to the cop cars. No arrests.

lin333

I am truly laughing about this illegal use of fireworks in MA-you have to have a license to use them? It is 3 weeks before the 4th of July, and we hear and see fireworks shooting all over the place, and the police station is right down the road! It is just another way for the Commonwealth to gauge the tax payers-this is one reason I detest the state of Massachusetts, even though I grew up here. Another amusing thing is that most crack house, prostitutes, and drug deals go on right around the police station, yet nothing is done. Most cops are probably copping the drugs themselves, and then going to plant their asses on the stools at Dunkin Donuts! You need a license for this, for that, for another, and the DMV is allowed to set their own fees. What a racket! What else is the government going to regulate-I wonder and it makes me personally sick and disgusted!

noodle

I saw this today after learning that there are 157 fires burning within 50 miles of my city.
Light a firework and I'll punch you in the mouth myself. Suck it up, there is usually a reason.

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Ourcrazymodern?

I'm gonna blow some bottle rockets out the window just for that. It's illegal, but we're saturated. I used to think South Dakota was cool until they voted out their Speaker of the House. Old Glory needs a few explosions. Maybe I'll use the whistling ones.

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ring

A few images may be graphic.

AbelG

of all this, fireworks law should be carefully reviewed.

ASU2003

I'll let the professionals handle it. It is cheaper that way too. And I don't have to worry about blowing myself up.

boink

yeah, it's annoying. funny when I was a kid, I mean like a ten yr old, I could and did buy fireworks. my friends and I would always have a few for a week or so before the 4th and of course a box of them for the night of the 4th.

that was when you rode a Schwinn stingray barefoot and w/o a helmet

now that I'm old I'm fine with them being illegal, I prefer it.

I don't really care if the kids blow all their fingers off, I just don't want them to blow my shit up.

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