Jinn

I don't mean 'crackers' as a slang term for white people, either.

"The pejorative sense of hacker is becoming more prominent largely because the popular press has co-opted the term to refer to individuals who gain unauthorised access to computer systems for the purpose of stealing and corrupting data. Hackers, themselves, maintain that the proper term for such individuals is cracker."

Crackers are criminal hackers, those who steal/corrupt/destroy data in an malicious effort to defraud or hurt. They're responsible for things like Credit Card number thefts from Mastercard and banking theft fiascos. These are the "bad" side of computer users, using their knowledge of the intricacies of computers to cause harm.

Hackers, on the other hand, is a computer programmer (not a mere user) of breathtaking technical and creative proficiency. It is a person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary. Also, one who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming. These are the type of people who enjoy LEGO Mindstorms, who created emulators to play Super Nintendo games on a computer, or create homebrewed games for the Playstation Portable. They're the kind of people who discover security holes in a software schema and notify the company (or CERT) of the problem so it can be fixed before a CRACKER comes in and destroys valuable information.

Posted as General Information, hopefully to enlighten all that there are still good "hackers" out there.

EDIT: Odd that it ended up in Newbies, but .. ahh well..

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MSD

It doesn't matter how many times you or I give this lecture. Nobody is going to pay attention. "Hacker" has become too much of a catchphrase for all computer criminals. It pisses me off.

Mephisto2

I agree wholeheartedly.

It would be like me arguing that the word "cool", as commonly used in the vernacular, is incorrect and really relates to temerature.

Mr Mephisto

RAGEAngel9

While I agree with you, you know damn well the American English language is a make it as you go language.
I've long since stopped trying to correct people.

d*d

but... crackers are hackers, just criminal versions so the term can justifibly be used

Redlemon

That reminds me of my local newspaper. There are frequently headlines that refer to someone being arrested on "porn" charges. Then you read the article, and discover that the case was about child pornography.

Porn: legal
Child porn: illegal
Hacking: good
Cracking: not good

But no one at the paper cares, or perhaps they see an advantage in obscuring the issue.

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Mephisto2

The term hackers, as it was originally coined, is no longer appropriate. Popular use, and misunderstanding, of the word has meant that its meaning has changed. It's as simple as that.

If you say "hacker" to someone today, 99% of people will think of a person trying to "hack into" a computer network in some shape, manner or form. Only 1% will think of a "technically astute and skilled computer user or tinkerer". Most people see the term as a derogatorative one.


Mr Mephisto

raeanna74

I was aware of the good uses of hacking. I wasn't aware the the criminals who pratice it were called crackers. I like that there is another name for the negative uses of the talent. It's kindof a relief since I was always looking for back doors and other loopholes in our college's computer system. Looking for problems that we fixed. It was part of my job there. Some of the students though seemed to feel that what I was doing, even though it was sanctioned by the school was wrong somehow. It wasn't for my own benefit as much as helping the school. I really need to catch up to systems nowadays, I could have a lot of fun and find some good jobs.

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My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

feelgood

Crackers are hackers, hackers aren't crackers. Hackers can be crackers if they choose to venture into world of crime.

Here's another side of the issue, just awhile ago, someone posted a question regarding another topic and mentioned that he used a stolen username/password from another website to get into it. Another user posted, calling that person a hacker. Now, in my opinion, he didn't do shit, all he did was use stolen username/password. He didn't do anything that crackers would do to get ahold of the username/password.

Just my 2 cent.

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Siege

Partially to blame is the craptacular movie cleverly titled "hackers"

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"Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek"

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This part just makes my posts easier to find

Mephisto2

craptacular hacker

I like it!

What's a hacking cracker then? Sounds like a very difficult five minutes sitting on the toilet...


Mr Mephisto

Slavakion

While this topic may educate a few TFPers, it's a waste of time. Why?

1) The public has already formed an opinion and doesn't care what you have to say. They've been FUDed into believing that hackers are evil, linux is a hacking tool, and video games are the cause of all modern violence. It would be like going over to the Middle East and telling them that the US really isn't the Great Satan, and in fact we're decent people. You won't get very many takers.

2) The people on TFP are more likely to know this already. I'm sure that anyone who hangs out in TComputers knows. On the other hand, TFPers are more likely to listen to reason. meh. Point number one is the important one.

Siege

If everyone thought like this, wouldn't we all still believe that the world is flat?

__________________
"Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek"

--Kevin Smith

This part just makes my posts easier to find

meepa

I think common usage is more important than whatever first-generation definations say. Language is something which is flexible and fluid, and it goes where the popular will takes it. Some tiny faction of highly skilled computer users getting all up-in-arms about some label as a misnomer is about as stupid as those British farmers who were complaining about "couch potato" ruining the image of their crop. Trying to force this difference between hackers & crackers on a general population that already has its mind made up on the what the word "hacker" symbolizes (as well as "cracker" as a racial term) is just silly. I think everyone can agree that it's a hopeless cause, and frankly the fact that people get upset over it is just bizzare to me. It's like some kind of strango-world political-correctness in the (educated) cyber-world which I had always considered above such petty BS.

Word usage changes all the time, and those who are so adamant about clinging to antiquated definitions need to get over their little slice of elitism and move on.

JUST MY OPINION!

Slavakion

Do you know how long that took to fix? But good point. While today's public fears technology and evil hackers, the next generation will probably be more accepting and understanding. Maybe things will change in 60 years.

Gilda

But if "cracker" is a subcategory of "hacker", and "child porn" is a subcategory of "porn" then to say hacker and porn is accurate, and the context of the story, in the case of the porn, or the particlar usage, in the case of "hacker" should make it clear which meaning was intended. I don't see the problem.

Words evolve. When I hear the word "careen", even though I know the classic definition is "moving at a high rate of speed" and that to move in an unsafe or erratic fashion is "career", I understand that it is the second meaning that is intended, and not the first. Likewise "decimate" has come to be synonymous with "annihilate" rather than the literal meanion of "to destroy 1/10th". "Interface" is used as a verb. People "surveil" others and have separate "agendas". A "papparazzi" ran into Lindsay Lohan. The tv "media" sensationalize stories. Though all of these grate on my ears, I don't fault the people using these words this way for not knowing better, and I understand their intended meaning.

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Mephisto2

Very well said Gilda.

I can't imagine many people discussing their agendum for a meeting.



Mr Mephisto

Sleepyjack

From a sound software design point of view, Hacking is actually a term that means going about programming without actually having a careful design or plans for building a particular bit of software. SO hackers just "hack" code and produce it on the fly. Normally the code produced is highly unmaintainable and their is "bits and pieces" everywhere. So it is not necessarily a good thing!
Alot of the time, hackers are just codemonkeys - although, as shown they can actually produce some good things. It all depends on what you're building. You don't want a group of hackers building an aircraft control system! :-O

Marvelous Marv

Except that people twist words for their own purposes.

Example: "Assault weapon."

/threadjack

Marvelous Marv

Was that "derogatorative?"

Redlemon

The problem is that the headline makes it sound like "porn" is illegal. For example, "Ex-Milford man guilty in porn" (the grammar is bad as well).

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Nua

well, this kind of post r very funny !!!

if u want to leran sth about underground , just read several books
i suggest to start form someting like
aproaching 0
hacker crackdown
cuckoo;s egg
... and so on

cheers
and remember it really doesn;t matter how u named it but what u think about it
if 1+1= 1+1 ( and this sum u named three or thrre , it still be the two , got it)

cheers
☺

Siege

I'm lost..

__________________
"Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek"

--Kevin Smith

This part just makes my posts easier to find

Mephisto2

it's leetspeek.

Nua is a hax07!!

get uzed to it buddi, az 7h1s 1z the future... He pwned joo!


Scary, eh?

This, and "txting", is ruining our beautiful English language.

Please read this slowly and repeatedly. Hopefully it will repair the damage done by trying to understand the gibberish above.




Mr Mephisto

kutulu

Exactly. This is like the problems with skinheads being associated Nazis.

Gilda

Permit me to translate:

Means roughly the same as this:

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silent_jay

Anybody watch the movie 'Freedom Downtime' about Kevin Mitnick? Great movie shows the lack of understanding about hacking and the lies people wil ltell to catch people.

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jonjon42

in geek vocab cracker and hacker or different

if I walked up to someone on the street however hacker would be the same as cracker
and they would have no idea what script kiddie means :P

I think geeks should just keep on pushing the definitions we want, and just maybe it might change.

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A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

analog

Firstly, you are saying that since child porn is a type of porn, that saying a person is guilty of "porn" is the same thing since it's a "subcategory". That's flawed logic to a point I can't measure.

Second, crackers are not hackers. They do two completely different things with completely different agendas and intentions. That's like saying a person who illegally puts graffiti on the side of a building and a person who paints a wonderful mural on the side of a building are doing the same job because they both put some paint on a wall. That's asinine, and it's why "graffiti" and "painting" are two different words. Just because people don't know better not to call one the other, doesn't mean the words are evolving. It means that a large portion of the population is clueless to the difference. How many people do you think there are that don't know the difference between a neutron, electron, and proton? Or a quark? That doesn't mean they're the same thing, or deserve to be squeezed together into one easy-to-digest word for the masses.

Language is fluid and "adjusts" because, over time, new words are used in place of old ones, colloquialisms become part of the language at large, and new words are added to describe things we didn't have or didn't understand and categorize previously.

The pervasive misuse of "hacker" has nothing to do with any of that. Incorrectly using "hacker" when you mean "cracker" is due to a lack of education on the matter. *edited* We're not talking about evolving vernacular, we're talking about people using the wrong word because they don't know better.*/edited*

I, like many others in this thread, gave up a long time ago on this cause... but to say that it's language fluidity, evolution, or anything other than misuse due to lack of knowledge, is foolish and incorrect.

Mephisto2

That's not really true, or fair analog.

If the majority of the population begin using a word in a particular manner, then the word evolves to actually mean that.

That's how language evolves.

It is pedantic to accuse anyone and everyone of being "stupid" because they use a particular word in a manner or context for which is not originally appropriate.



Mr Mephisto

analog

I actually meant to change that sentence... forgot about it until now. For what it's worth, I've gone back and changed it for future readers.

I apologize I did not change it in time. Your quote will remain.

I believe it is said well in someone's sig (can't remember whose): "If 10,000 people believe a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing."

A common lack of knowledge on a subject does not change the definition of a word. It just makes it commonly incorrect.

Pragma

The problem is that it was originally used to mean "someone who is really knowledgeable with a subject and hacks around" -- and then got picked up to mean "someone who breaks into computers." Only afterwards did the security community try to push "cracker" as an alternate term, and it never caught on (and I suspect never will).

I work in the computer security profession and I use the term hacker - because now that has become one of its accepted definitions. It's listed in the Old English Dictionary:

xepherys

Well, we are evolving past the written word. We are now a text-and-forget society. When you are simultaneously holding six conversations on IM and trying to finish up that email to your professor about why your paper is late... well, time is of the essence. The email you type to your professor will probably look something like:

"Professor So-and-so:

My apologies for handing my paper in two days late. Due to unforseen events, I was unable to complete the assignment on time. It is my hope that you will be forgiving and at least give me minimum credit on the paper, rather than the zero that late turn-ins usually require."

While the IM to your girlfriend likely looks more like:

"Hey babe, what's up? I <3 U! *hug*"

And another IM to your buddy may look like:

"Man, I pwned u in that last game of Halo. 0\/\/N3D!!!"


Really, none of it is any less useful or wonderful than any other part of it. The true beauty of language is that it's purpose is to convey ideas, thoughts and emotions. While Shakespeare certainly moves me, hearing about someone getting "pwned" in a game brings more to the front for me than someone saying, "Aye! I killed him oft and verily and henceforth he lost the game by great amounts". *shrug*

Emoticons and l33tsp34k are just as wonderful as Shakespeare and Olde English.

Slavakion

And three English teachers just died.

While emoticons have their place (and 1337, I suppose), they will never be as wonderful as Shakespeare. And I don't particularly like Shakespeare, but I can appreciate the rhythm and beauty of the language.

Gilda

Nope, I said no such thing. I said that since child porn is a subcategory of porn, to use the latter is accurate. I did not say that they are the same thing. If B is a subcategory of A, then it is accurate to substitute A for B, though the meaning won't be quite as specific. "Dress" is a subcategory of "clothes". If I'm wearing a dress, and I say, "I'm wearing clothes," that is also true. To say that someone who has been accused/convicted of a child porn crime has been convicted of a porn crime is accurate, if less specific. The text of the story would then specify the particular kind of porn crime.

Pervasive use of language in a manner that is different from its original meaning does stem from a lack of education, true. It also tends to alter the meaning in general usage to whatever the majority usage is. In general usage, "ultimate" has come to mean "greatest" rather than "last". "Decimate" has come to mean "great destruction" rather than "destruction of 1/10th".

You say that as if the two are mutually exclusive. Language often evolves precisely because of misuse due to lack of knowledge. This is why it's now possible to "loan" someone money. The word originally functioned solely as the noun form of "lend", but evolved a verb usage as a result of misuse due to lack of knowledge. "Media" "data" and "agenda" are now used with singular verbs as a result of misuse due to lack of knowledge.

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~Steven Colbert

Gilda

FYI: Shakespeare's plays and poems are written in Modern English. The Old English period ended circa 1100, and Middle English circa 1500.

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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

analog

Yeah... i'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there. Chatting kiddie shortcuts and leet-speak are not, in my opinion, at all beautiful, let alone comparable to real writing.

Siege

If you didn't type the word "owned" like that every time, then maybe your paper would be handed in on time

__________________
"Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek"

--Kevin Smith

This part just makes my posts easier to find

xepherys

I'm aware the Old English is not related to Shakespeare, and it should further be noted that emoticons are, in much the same way, not related to leetspeak.


What is "real writing" then? What about real writing makes it beautiful to you? Dictionary definitions include (from www.freedictionary.com):

Alphabets vary greatly (Roman, Greek, Cyrillic, Kanji, Hirigana, et cetera). Numerical representations of letters (def. 1a) should be accepted, if for no other reason than Artistic License.

Also note that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".