How to get out of jail: A- Pay $50, B- Roll doubles, C- Go to church - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MSD · 05-31-2005, 01:19 PM

Quote:

LONDON, Ky. -- A Kentucky judge has been offering some drug and alcohol offenders the option of attending worship services instead of going to jail or rehab -- a practice some say violates the separation of church and state.

District Judge Michael Caperton, 50, a devout Christian, said his goal is to "help people and their families."

"I don't think there's a church-state issue, because it's not mandatory and I say worship services instead of church," he said.

Alternative sentencing is popular across the country -- ordering vandals to repaint a graffiti-covered wall, for example. But legal experts said they didn't know of any other judges who give the option of attending church.

Caperton has offered the option about 50 times to repeat drug and alcohol offenders. It is unclear what effect the sentence has had.

David Friedman, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky, said the option raises "serious constitutional problems."

"The judge is saying that those willing to go to worship services can avoid jail in the same way that those who decline to go cannot," Friedman said. "That strays from government neutrality towards religion."

While I approve strongly of alternative sentencing, I am concerned about the First Amendment implications of this. While it isn't directly "establishing a national religion," it is a government entity offering worship service attendance as an alternative to jail time. I am glad to see that the judge specifically avoids specifying a religion, I think that nonreligious people are discriminated against by this. I also think that it would be more productive to send people to rehabilitation or AA (or NA, etc.) instead of to religious services. If he wants to keep this, maybe worship services could be relpaced by a weekly community group that will offer similar support in a nonreligious way for those who do not practice any religion.

Elphaba · 05-31-2005, 01:25 PM

This surprises me, too. AA and NA are based in a "higher power" with focus specifically on the destructiveness of the addiction. A general worship service wouldn't seem to be nearly as effective without the reinforcement to stay clean and sober and the ongoing support provided.

If the judge hasn't crossed the line, I suspect he's standing on it.

Ustwo · 05-31-2005, 01:33 PM

I am an atheist and could really care less personally.

Hell if I was some druggie, I'd even go to church if it got me out of jail

The US has freedom of religion as a right, not freedom from religion.

My only question is how much effect this would have, my guess is jack/squat.

present_future · 05-31-2005, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

My only question is how much effect this would have, my guess is jack/squat.

Agreed. I'm sure a lot of these people have been told to go to church to help themselves many times before. I highly doubt a judge ordering them to attend services will have much of an impact.

HeadyIncognito · 06-01-2005, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The US has freedom of religion as a right, not freedom from religion.

I'm an athiest as well, and I think you might want to rethink this sentence. It is just as important a right to be free from religion as it is to have freedom of religion, and MUCH more important to me personally. I think that this situation is fucked up, because it gets criminals off the hook if they "attend worship services" which could amount to nothing more than what they take part in on a weekly basis. In addition it would likely have no focus on their drug/alcohol problems that got them in trouble in the first place.

flat5 · 06-01-2005, 02:19 AM

I see present_future's point.

Clearly the USA's policies are driven by puritan christian ethics on some issues.

It's been in the news, by the way :-)

The world has to live with it, for now.

jaco · 06-01-2005, 03:54 AM

Seperation of church and state for the block!

AA is something i knew nothing about until I got ahold of one of their books because someone close to me started having to go to it. I couldn't help but laugh at their tactics of belief in a higher power and avoidence of any personal responsibility other than faith. Now, im quite certain AA helped this person and many people across the nation and perhaps it is because they are more willing to believe in a god or spirit than in themselves.

Perhaps the judge just decided to skip the middleman and send them directly to the church. If it works, so much the better and perhaps giving people the option is a good thing even if it only helps a some of them but that still shouldnt get them out of the criminal reprecussions of what they did.

shakran · 06-01-2005, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The US has freedom of religion as a right, not freedom from religion.

And now an agent of the government is telling people "either you go to church or you go to jail."

That's pretty much destroying the freedom of OR from religion.

Separation of church and state is one of the tenets of our concept of a free America. The concept does not mean "the state won't interfere with or endorse any religion unless that religion's prophet got nailed to a cross."

Astrocloud · 06-01-2005, 01:17 PM

So will this same judge let me out of a speeding ticket if I go to church?

Ustwo · 06-01-2005, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrocloud

So will this same judge let me out of a speeding ticket if I go to church?

No speeding tickets are how they raise money, so you get to pay the fine.

0energy0 · 06-01-2005, 07:40 PM

jail can get you killed and sodomized. i dont want to go to jail. my friend got his shoes jacked. ive heard some awful stories about prison. trust me. if you think it is unconstitutional, see what happens to you in jail. then tell me what you'd rather have.

church is not only for spiritual growth, its also for mental growth. it makes you think.

shakran · 06-02-2005, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0energy0

jail can get you killed and sodomized. i dont want to go to jail. my friend got his shoes jacked. ive heard some awful stories about prison. trust me. if you think it is unconstitutional, see what happens to you in jail. then tell me what you'd rather have.

church is not only for spiritual growth, its also for mental growth. it makes you think.

That's not the point. Whether church makes you grow or not, it's not the government's job or right to force you to go to church. In fact, for the government to do so is a gross violation of the prisoner's civil rights.

If you commit a felony, then you go to jail. If you don't like the thought of jail, don't commit the crime. Church should and must not enter the equation.

05-31-2005, 01:33 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I am an atheist and could really care less personally. Hell if I was some druggie, I'd even go to church if it got me out of jail The US has freedom of religion as a right, not freedom from religion. My only question is how much effect this would have, my guess is jack/squat. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

06-01-2005, 03:54 AM	#7 (permalink)
jaco Crazy	Seperation of church and state for the block! AA is something i knew nothing about until I got ahold of one of their books because someone close to me started having to go to it. I couldn't help but laugh at their tactics of belief in a higher power and avoidence of any personal responsibility other than faith. Now, im quite certain AA helped this person and many people across the nation and perhaps it is because they are more willing to believe in a god or spirit than in themselves. Perhaps the judge just decided to skip the middleman and send them directly to the church. If it works, so much the better and perhaps giving people the option is a good thing even if it only helps a some of them but that still shouldnt get them out of the criminal reprecussions of what they did. __________________ "How soft your fields so green, Can whisper tales of gore" "Thou art god"

06-01-2005, 07:40 PM	#11 (permalink)
0energy0 Insane Location: Title Town, USA	jail can get you killed and sodomized. i dont want to go to jail. my friend got his shoes jacked. ive heard some awful stories about prison. trust me. if you think it is unconstitutional, see what happens to you in jail. then tell me what you'd rather have. church is not only for spiritual growth, its also for mental growth. it makes you think. __________________ Is the juice worth the squeeze?

05-31-2005, 01:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	This surprises me, too. AA and NA are based in a "higher power" with focus specifically on the destructiveness of the addiction. A general worship service wouldn't seem to be nearly as effective without the reinforcement to stay clean and sober and the ongoing support provided. If the judge hasn't crossed the line, I suspect he's standing on it.

06-01-2005, 02:19 AM	#6 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	I see present_future's point. Clearly the USA's policies are driven by puritan christian ethics on some issues. It's been in the news, by the way :-) The world has to live with it, for now.

06-01-2005, 01:17 PM	#9 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	So will this same judge let me out of a speeding ticket if I go to church?