MSD

I live in Southwestern CT, and I am still saddened by the view every time I drive down past or through NYC and see the gap in the skyline where the towers should be. Although the "Freedom Tower" design looks kind of cool, it to me that it's more of a "you can't beat us" phallic symbol than a monument to freedom. I agree with Trump that it isn't very practical or aesthetically pleasing. I would much rather see the two monoliths reconstructed in a 21st Century style, and I don't think that a faux-futuristic design can beat that.

http://www.renewnyc.com/images_WMS/f...ower_night.jpg (1.47MB -- not for dialup)

To me, it looks like a big candlestick and two sawed-off towers to the right of it. If I had to choose bewteen

superiorrain

Building a new WTC is not the right answer. I mean i agree with the idea of showing definace to what has happened and rebuilding them only taller would certainly do that. However the freedom tower is a much better idea, rebuilding them would seem like nothing had happend to the orginals in the first place. For it to look completely different would always heed as a reminder and also be more repectful to the people that died. More of a sentiment of 'we're moving on but never forgetting' rather than 'we want to act like it never happend'.

Before you all have ago, i know that trump and all those agree with him would not forget neither do they want people to forget, its just how i feel.

Plus the freedom tower looks kinda cool if you ask me.

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guthmund

I always thought Libeskind's "Freedom Tower" looked like crap. There's the 1776 reference at the tower, which didn't seem right. It's unpleasing to look at and doesn't even remotely fit into any of the existing surroundings.

It just doesn't do anything for me. I think if tribute is to be paid (and it should) then the tribute should be subtle. Keith Olbermann on his blog the other day mentioned making one of the towers 2,752 inches shorter (one inch for each victim) than the other one. It's not the greatest idea, but better than a 1,776 foot tall 'doozer' built tower with a giant lightning rod tacked on to the top.

And while I'm not all that happy Mr. Trump is involved, I'm glad someone is stepping up to say something about how bad the plans are.

I'd be very interested to see what Trump's plans look like....

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Redlemon

Oooh, the model is big. That tells me everything I need to know about Trump's plans.

And regarding the original towers; if you asked anyone in August of 2001 what they thought about the Twin Towers, they probably would have called them ugly. They are only appreciated in their absence, and by what their loss represents.

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BigBen

Still sends shivers when I see an OLD pic of the NY skyline, and I see the twin towers standing there, proud and dominant.

What better way to remember the tragedy than to build them back, 1 level taller, and dedicate the 2 new floors (one on each tower, right?) to a museum of NY history, WTC history, and 9/11?

To stand beside those towers and look up must provoke a strong emotional response. To then walk inside and tour a museum so that generations can witness what we did should be what we are looking for.

I have to agree, to replace the towers with a skeleton is a double-edged sword. I like the idea of an identical+1 design. I also like the idea of showing people that it cannot, will not be replaced.

My thoughts.

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Carno

Yeah, the freedom tower looks ugly as hell.

I think it would be much more fitting to build two new twin towers in place of the old ones.

So what? It's not like he plans to build the buildings without anyone knowing what they would look like. You'll see his plans soon enough.

Charlatan

I like the new design and all of the symbolism in its height, etc. (then again I'm probably just a bit of an egghead).

The original two towers were hideous monstrosities... and as Redlemon points out, appreciated in their abscence.

The thing is with most good architecture... it doesn't please everyone and it usually angers a lot of people... especially in the planning stages.

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Sage

I think that it wouldn't be "building to forget" but rather a way of showing the world "hey, you knock em down we build em bigger and better." By taking the original design and modifying it a bit, we'd be showing the world how we deal with adversity. I really like the idea of having a museum on a floor of each tower. I don't think that anyone who ever looks at the WTC (if a new one ever gets built) will be so dazzled by the new design that they'll forget 9/11. I don't think 9/11 is something that people will forget, ever. It's like the Berlin Wall coming down- you don't forget things of monumental importance like that.

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Ambient1

Even if the new buildings were safer, and did not have the same flaws as the original buildings, who would want to work there?

It's not so much the fear of something happening again, as much as it is the constant reminder that your office is located at a site that so much tragedy and sorrow has occured.

Cynthetiq

I can see whatever is currently being built at 7WTC from my apartment.

I miss the WTC.

I don't care for the Freedom Tower, it looks hokey and wasn't a good use of the airspace IMO.

19 fuckers fucked it up for a few billion people.

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shakran

Nice reference!


My thought is: Why invite trouble. We build that thing, that's gonna be the primary target for generations. Why go asking for it? Seems kinda dense to me.

arch13

Okay guy's, we need to seperate a couple of issues here. I think my user name might tell you what i do for a living.

First,
Trump can run his trap all he wants. So can the city of New York and everyone else. In the end the only person that matters is the property owner (Silverstein). He's not to fond of Libeskind's idea either, but has already stated that he wil not rebuild a duplicate.
And good for him for doing so. The site needs something new, preferably not dripping with so much symbolism that it's sugary.

You guys can wish for what you want till the cows come home, but not even the governer or president can step in an impede the 99 year lease from the port authority that is in place.
I have no problem with the new tower. But as someone who has sat in the same room and listended to Libeskind drone on for hours, will someone please pop his head for me?

To be honest, I though the twin towers where horrendus the first day I saw them. Their monolithic prescence created an odd social environment in downtown that disrupted the movement of people and the urban fabric that had existed for hundreds of years in manhatten.

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guthmund

Thanks!

Since I posted here earlier I've had the theme song running in my head non-stop.

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shakran

Uh, yeah. So have I. I need to have a little chat with you about that Trying to edit a sweeps piece while "work is for another day" keeps running through your head sucks

Vincentt

I would rather see the WTC rebuilt. I am not a fan of the freedom tower thing.

I think you can still have a tribute to the people who died in a rebuilt WTC.

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analog

The "freedom tower" is the ugliest piece of shit i've ever seen. i've been to NY city. my uncle works in that very area frequently. I saw the twin towers many years ago.

Exactly. Something slightly sloped towards the top, either a cut angle or sweeping, both cuts on the same side, so they resemble the old way, but with a new design.

At any rate, soemthing has to be done about that shitty Freedom Tower shit. Shit.

minyn

posting questions to think about this- not devil's advocate, just trying to see what people think:

1. What does the Freedom Tower say to outsiders vs the new WTC?

2. What about the memorial for the families of those lost? does anyone care or is it what America likes?

3. compromise maybe?

4. who has and will have more say over this? the property owner, Trump, or the US. and why of course.

The Freedom Tower made me hesitant. neat idea, neat look, but its not what NY needs. it needs a compromise between somethign to stand tall as we have and something to be useful and not so flashy that we're screaming "fuck you world" cuz yea, we have a president who does a perfectly good job at that, no need for more...

c'mon guys, less opinions of looks, more what will think what and WHY. caio

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flamingdog

'Standing tall'? 'Proud and dominant'? If you're really interested in an outsider's opinion, then here it is:

Wherefore all this 'bigger, better, faster, more' hyperbole?

analog

Because here in America, we try to be proud of what we have, what we've worked for (those of us who actually contribute to society)- which means when someone kicks over our sandcastle, we make a neater, bigger, cooler-looking one to give the finger to the prick with the castle-kicking habit.

Is that really "ego", or is it simply pride and resistance to intimidation? We're not talking about another gas-guzzling SUV, we're talking about the monument to a few thousand horrific deaths.

Many want it to symbolize the freedom we have by flying in the face of the fuckers who pulled that horrible shit in the first place, and showing how we will not be affected, we will not crumble, we will not cower... we will hold our heads high, and rise above. Above all else- the most perfect payback to anything is to give the offender the impression that they can't affect you, and that's what many are going for.

akito

I can't even begin to explain how much truth that is. I was going to reiterate, but just read the damn quote and it says it all.

Well said Redlemon, well said indeed. No one fucking cares that they are there, they only care when they're gone.

Hanabal

I cared when they were there, I thought they were beautiful. The best designed buildings in the world, cause they were so simple, yet powerful. But Im an engineer.

I made it one of my lifes goals to see them one day in person, now I can't. I always thought the best idea for a replacement was an evolution of the old ones, bigger, better, but the same idea.

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paulskinback

The impact on the city has been far greater than the loss of life, and I don't want to sound like I don't care here, but in terms of the sheer number of people who could work in the twin towers, the number of extra jobs it created in the area and the way it made manhatten look (from the day I first saw NYC on TV they existed - they made NYC instantly recognisable to anyone around the world) they need to be rebuilt.

Saying that to rebuild them would attract future terrorist attacks is insane paranoia. Accept the fact that terrorism happens. I live in London, the Irish Republic Army have been bombing our city for over 25 years. In the 80's (or early 90's, I forget) a huge truck bomb took the side off a building here much like the Oklahoma city bombing. We rebuilt, got on with our lives. We didn't forget. But to rebuild these buildings after people died and the city was totally shook up and disrupted was to defiantly say that these people would not affect our daily lives "we will not be slaves":

Our country was built on a poem by James Thompson. It lifts me to read it,

When Britain first, at heaven's command,
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian Angels sung this strain:

Rule, Britannia, rule the waves;
Britons never will be slaves.

The nations, not so blest as thee,
Must, in their turns, to tyrants fall:
While thou shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.

Still more majestic shalt thou rise,
More dreadful, from each foreign stroke:
As the loud blast that tears the skies,
Serves but to root thy native oak.

Thee haughty tyrants ne'er shall tame:
All their attempts to bend thee down,
Will but arouse thy generous flame;
But work their woe, and thy renown.

To thee belongs the rural reign;
Thy cities shall with commerce shine:
All thine shall be the subject main,
And every shore it circles thine.

The Muses, still with freedom found,
Shall to thy happy coast repair:
Blest isle! with matchless beauty crowned,
And manly hearts to guard the fair.



It basically refers to the fact that a strong nation will be attacked but it should make you stronger. I think America should rebuild the towers bigger, better and safer than before to show the nations "not as blessed as thee" who have fallen to tyrants that "Still more majestic shalt thou rise".

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Vincentt

WTC had a large number of people going to vist them all the time. I don't think you could say no one cared about them before 9/11.

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MooseMan3000

Not before kicking his ass, however.


Anyhow. The freedom tower as it's designed is ugly. Plain and simple. If it's built as is, a few years down the road everyone will be like "what were we thinking?"

The Twin Towers were not particularly interesting, but they fit the skyline of New York. The city has character. This new tower doesn't fit with that character. It stands out like a 12 year old boy giving a presentation in front of his class. It may just be that ugly render, but I can't stand the sight of the new thing. It hurts my face. If I were a victim of the attacks, and I saw this shit, I would be offended. It's some guy's ego that designed this. It makes him feel better about himself. It's not a monument, it's a monstrosity.

That's not to say I agree with Trump's idea, either. Show me the models, and maybe we'll talk. They might also be ugly, and he's just angry that he didn't get the design contract. Who knows? Alls I'm sayin is the Freedom Tower, as it is now, should die a quick death.

bookiebye

I say quit wallowing in the past and don't make important decisions based on sentimentality. I ask, what would be the practical application of the "Freedom Tower"? Would you erect a monument to remind the people of something they will never forget in the first place? Or do you construct a practical, usefull building that can benefit the downtown core of NY, the state, and the country.

I believe the people and the country will benefit more from a 'working' monument than a skeletal structure that ou can not do anything but look at. Seems like a waste of space in a city where space is at a premium. I agree with SAGE, if they knock it down, we will rebuild it bigger and stronger.

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Charlatan

The new Freedom tower and the additional structures that accompany it, will house more people than the previous structures... i.e. not a waste of space.

I find it very funny that an engineer would appreciate two simple monoliths... yes Hanabal I'm addressing you Function over form.

Personally, I see this as a great opportunity to do something different, better and more forward thinking than the boring monstrosities that were there before... When I look at the Chrysler Building or the Empire State Building I see beauty... The WTC towers were just big and nothing more.

Quite a few of my NYC friends in the days and weeks after 9/11 gave me the shrug and said, we hated those buildings anyway... they almost all lived or worked in the area.

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Daniel_

Part of the problem (as an outsider) is that the US has little experience with forced reconstruction of cityscapes.

I know that there were a number of places that had to be reconstructed after the Civil War, but throughout Europe and Asia people have been rebuilding after wars for millenia - I can walk out of my house and go past 1,000 years of buildings in a 10 minute walk - and some of them wee destroyed in what these days would be called "terrorist attacks".

The issue is WAY more evocative and emotional in the States than it seems to be here.

The approaches that have worked in the rest of the world include:

Rebuilding what was there before
Dresden is an excelent example of this - they used old archives and so forth to try to reconstruct the destruction that the RAF and USAAF gave them.

Building to replace the old function in a modern structure
Coventry - look at the new Cathedral. Built to put the conflict with the Nazis behind us. Done in the modern style that was popular at the time. Moving forward, and using German expertise in parts.

Making a memorial
Hirroshima. Many parks, gardens, temples and so forth at the epicentre of the worlds first military atomic explosion.

Personally I think that the bravest thing that the designers could do would be to clear the area, make a garden of contemplation and a museum or some sort (such as the "Memorial" in Caen, commemorating the huge losses of life of WW2, the holocaust and the D-Day landings - on all sides, not just the allies), and to clinch the deal, put a cathedral, a synagogue, a mosque, and a few other temples on the site.

Grow beyind the conflict, don't entrench it into generations of warfare and tyrany. There is no tyrant worse than last seasons victim.

"The Germans killed the Jews, and the Jews killed the Arabs, and the Arabs killed the Hostages, and this is the News" - Roger Waters, When the Wind Blows, OST.

Charlatan

Daniel... the main thing preventing the garden concept is that the value of the land is to high to just have a garden...

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Lebell

I have always supported rebuilding the WTC pretty much as is.

And I think that the Freedom Tower, with it's empty, skeleton upper floors is a horrible idea with horrible symbolism.

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guthmund

Anything we build there is going to a big fuck you to the extremists who applauded 9/11.

To answer the questions...

1. I don't think the world will care much what either of them say. The world, at large, will be apathetic except those that bother to learn the litany of symbolism built into the Freedom Tower, passing out in pain from the constant need to roll their eyes towards the back of their heads. The extremists, regardless of what's built, will just go indiscriminately crazy.

2. That says it all. The only way the dead of September 11th are going to get a memorial is if the cost isn't too prohibitive. Talk about a big fuck you. Well, we're more than happy to build a 1,776 tall symbolic monster to exemplify the greatness that is America, but we'll be damned if we're going to give a prime piece of real estate up for a few thousand dead.

3. There should be no compromise. We herald the dead of every other war (wasn't this the beginnings of the War on Terror?) why do these civilians not deserve the right? Sure they didn't know it was coming, but neither did the souls who died at Pearl Harbor, yet there is a memorial dedicated to them in Hawaii, isn't there? They should build some sort of reminder. It doesn't have to be big and gaudy, small and tasteful will do just fine, but it shouldn't come down to a question of money.

4. Who owns the property all the other war memorials sit on? I assume it's the federal government, right? Ultimately, the property owner is going to have the final say, but because of the unique circumstances surrounding the events of 9/11, I believe the federal government should be ceded a small bit for the building of a memorial.

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flamingdog

Small question as an ignorant limey... what's currently on the site?

rockogre

Someone remind me, we need Donald Trumps input because...................................

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Daniel_

How much was downtown Hiroshima worth?

How much is the land under the Vietnam memorial wall worth?

How much is PEACE worth?

Charlatan

Not as much as Manhattan real estate...

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balderdash111

Here is a hi-res blow-up of what I think is the planned design..

http://www.triroc.com/wtc/pix.ninefo....ninefoot.jpeg

I really dislike it. It eliminates the -IMO- one redeeming stylistic element of the old towers: the clean verticle lines from near-ground level to the top. Instead, this seems a basic, boxy, rows of windows design you see in dozens of buildings every day. I think the impression you get is two very dull, but very big, buildings.

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punx1325

I am glad someone is stepping up to try and get rid of the freedom tower. The freedom tower says 2 things: 1 it is unpractical and 2 we are afraid because we can't build something bigger. I would much rather have trumps design over the freedom tower.

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Lebell

To my knowledge, nothing.

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Cynthetiq

I was just down there the other day...after not going near it for close to 2 years now...

and it's still just a big hole. there's the entrance to the PATH/Subway station now... that's it.

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powerclown

Agreed. And no somber memorials surround by tulips and water fountains.

Something motherfucking Magnificent, along the lines of the Petronas Towers in Malaysia.

flamingdog

It seems a bit wrong to think that, what, nearly four years after the tragedy occurred, they haven't got any kind of memorial up? I find the discussions over the value of the land to be pretty repugnant, to be honest. Surely that many lives lost overrule the price of real estate?

Aside: I wonder if the memorial to the innocent lives lost in Iraq over the last two years will be 'Motherfucking Magnificent'.