majik_6

That's a really interesting quote!

I'd never heard that story.


As for the killing of field animals in the production of food, if I was that dead set on no animal ever being killed by the conveniences of my lifestyle, then I'd sell my car, too, in fear that I may hit something in the road...and that ain't happening. I'll try my best to swerve around anything in the road, and so far that's worked great.

Either way, I'm going to be eating vegetables, so those animals are dead regardless. So, if I'm not eating actual meat, then I guess I'm still "fighting the good fight"...just not as hard.

As for my own garden, yes I try to eat as much locally, organically grown crap as I can. We no longer keep a garden, but we did for years, and for quite sometime, all my vegetables came from there. It's not because I give a shit about the field animals so much (although I do), but because my family owns a farm, and I try to support the local farmers.

__________________
it's all about self-indulgence

Holo

I went vegan for 4 months on a dare from a vegan friend. I absolutely hated it!!! You had to read every damn label of everything you put in your mouth to make sure it has no animal products, and organic food is VERY expensive. I was spending about $75 a week on just my food by myself. Plus I don't like many vegetables, so I was stuck with a much more limited range of foods. I ended up switching back to omnivore status. To all vegans I will paraphrase Blade II.

I was born an omnivore....the only difference between us...is that that I made peace with what I am a long time ago. :P

__________________
I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

yatzr

I also agree that killing mice is not that big of a deal, but I'm in the category that killing cows is also not that big of a deal. I'm just saying that i highly disagree with people who will put one animal's life over another based on how much they like them. It just seems kind of hypocritical to me. To me, they're all the same...a candidate for supper. If you don't care that free living mice (and rabbits...they're a little more cuddly) are viciously torn up in harvesting equipment, why should you care if cattle that was raised to be food anyway (so they didn't really have much of a life to live) is pretty much painlessly killed?

I'm not trying to get anyone to stop being a vegetarian or anything, but it makes me mad when some vegetarians (especially the ones that don't eat organic foods) think that they've never had anything to do with the death of a single animal and they try to chew me out for eating meat (I've gotten yelled at quite a few times). I respect vegetarians and those who want to protect animals (except PETA...they're just plain dumb), but i've found a lot of them to be hypocrites. I just don't like it when I get yelled at from a hypocrite (i'm not saying that i felt like i was yelled at in this thread or that anyone here is a hypocrite, i'm just ranting now).

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

filtherton

Me and the lady were talking about this same issue last night. She eats the occasional chicken breast, but mostly sticks to fish and veggies, and i try and stay away from red meat.

I could never go vegan for ethical reasons because i think to do so would totally ignore the fact that by merely choosing to exist in the civilized world you have stated your position in terms of humans>animals. All modern civilization has advanced very much at the expense of the "natural" world and its animals. I have met too many vegans who believe that by simply avoiding animal products they can remove themselves from that legacy. I think veganism attempts to soothe a conscience that has no right to be soothed.

I've thought about choosing to not eat meat because i don't want to be part of factory farming and all that market driven brutality, but not all meat is produced under such conditions. Dead animals aren't the problem here. That is why i don't think avoidng meat is the solution. The problem is that the majority of america endorses the factory farm system every time they buy meat. People are always going to eat meat, and the factory system is always going to be in place until people decide they want better treatment for their meals and fork over the extra money for free range, antibiotic free goodness.

Another reason i don't care for veganism is that it is very difficult to eat well. It is like holo said, very time consuming and expensive. I worked at a natural foods co-op for a few years and aside from the fruits and veggies and some bulk stuff, all the vegan food was ultrasuperprocessed crap. Vegan cheese is a miracle of modern chemistry. It is not something the truly health concious person would want to eat on a regular basis. Not that i don't enjoy the occasional veggie burger or quorn(actually made from fungi) patty.

Soggybagel

I'm a meat fanatic but I appreciate and respect those who are some sort of vegetarian. The one thing that does get me though is how fanatical groups such as PETA will go to the point of stupidity to get their point across that eating meat is not only bad but horrible. It really just hurts those who are vegans for example and gives the general population a poor image to work with when they thing Vegetarian.

I'll give an example though its not really pertaining to eating. A few years ago in the city there is a Mink farm. The mink are bred exclusively for the fur. I know a guy who's family owns the place and while they kill them they don't torture them or anything. In any event, some folks think that its cruel and decide to break in and let out hundreds of the mink. Since the mink are fed by hand they all die in the wild within days as they have no idea how to survive in the wild. The act of releasing those mink did nothing. All that happened was the mink died and my friends family went into a financial hardship of sorts, which did not make me happy. The only reason I'm saying this is I just don't like fanatical people who protest outside places that happen to sell burgers or whatnot.

rsl12

Are you serious? so you would have no qualms about eating:

chimpanzee
koko the signing gorilla
somebody's grandma (sold off to feed the rest of the family)
your dog

unless you have absolutely no scruples, everyone draws a line at some point. Exactly where you draw it is a function of your personal principles.

__________________
oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

Charlatan

My issues around meat revolve around the corporatization of the farm. The ways in which animals are raised giant feed lots and massive chicken farms is an environmental hazard...

The ways in which they are currently processed only exacerbates the issue.

I'm not even touch what has happened to our milk supply (thankfully bovine growth hormone has not be cleared in Canada).

I still eat meat but I only eat organic from small independant farms. It is a little more expensive but I can (thankfully) afford it.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

yatzr

well, unless that grandma was the grandma of an animal, no I would not eat a grandma. I never said I would eat anything...just any animal (and no I don't think that humans are considered animals). And yes I would eat chimpanzee, koko the signing gorilla, and even my dog if they happened to be packaged up in the store. I wouldn't be able to kill them myself, because I have a hard time killing anything warm blooded...even mice. But that doesn't mean i wouldn't eat them if somebody else killed them for me. So my line would be anything below humans.

i don't know if this would add anything to the function of my principles, but I like my steak rare...as in bloody as hell and just about still mooing. I just thought that might help your analysis of me.

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

Rodney

The best reason I ever heard for going vegetarian was somebody who explained, "I didn't have much money, and meat was expensive." So she learned all she could about vegetarianism and cooking, and the last I heard she was teaching "Quick and Easy Vegetarian Cooking" classes at the local adult school.

In terms of morality, I'll only say that it's a copout to eat an animal that somebody else killed, if you couldn't bear to kill it yourself. If you would do it, though, that's another matter.

Eventually, if the world keeps adding population, meat's going to become more expensive anyway, unless we find a way to grow it in vats or something. Cattle grazing either takes a lot of land, or it takes a lot of grain. And I think if you're corn-feeding a cow, it takes something like ten pounds of feed to make one pound of cow. Right now we're swimming in corn in this country, mainly because of steep government subsidies. But someday...

analog

It's the food chain. Just because it's done in a plant, and not on a plain with a guy and spear, does not make it any different.

You don't yell at lions for consuming zebras, when there's all that yummy grass around, so I don't see how one could argue humans are any different.

And don't give me "we shouldn't because we're civilized"... that's crap. Go eat some meat- it's good for you, the world was founded and thrives on it, and you fuck with nature when you disturb it's balance.

Meat is yummy. Thank you.

Strange Famous

I went vegetarian for two years (although I still ate fish - Kurt Cobain said it as ok), bt I only did it to impress a girl. Once we broke up, I went back to eating meat again. I think it is easier to lose weight as a veggie though

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

rsl12

yatzr: are you around the washington dc area? I would glady come and strangle, skin, and butcher your dog, and then you could enjoy dog steaks. not my personal favorite (dog has a strong taste) but would do so and you could prove your point at the same time.

anyways, the idea that there's some fine line between humans and animals is an interesting distinction--unless you have religious reasons for believing so (souls and all that)...gorillas and humans share 99% of their dna. how would you feel about eating:

aborted fetuses
person less intelligent than your average monkey (i assume such people exist)
person brain-dead from accident
someone evil (mr. manson)


(note: not really talking about being grossed out about eating these things--more about being morally disgusted by the idea)

my point is still that there's a moral line that everyone draws--some point beyond which the idea of eating, of causing death causes moral disgust. there's a great diversity of things to eat in the world, and the line gets drawn arbitrarily at a point, even though you could argue with the person about particular things that they *ought* to be able to eat, based on their arguments. where that line is drawn is a matter of personal opinion, and even though it's often a bit arbitrary, drawing the line is far from a useless exercise. for you, your line is humans/non-humans. but i could argue at length and perhaps get you to concede that special case #23432 ought to be eatable. but that doesn't make your line-drawing of humans/non-humans not useful.

__________________
oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

yatzr

well, let me say it one more time. I will not eat anything, just any animal. Yes that includes gorillas. Just because their dna is 99% the same as humans doesn't make them humans. You could find the two humans with the most different dna in the world and they would still be a million times more similiar than a human's and a gorilla's. That 99% means nothing in terms of a fine line between a human and a non human. If you can't tell a human and a gorilla apart, then I can see what you're saying. But otherwise I think the difference between a human and an animal is pretty clear. So just so you don't ask me how I feel about eating people again, I will quote myself in nice bold letters:

I will not eat anything, just any animal.

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

rsl12

yatzr, send me your snail mail address. i can arrange to get you fresh dog.

__________________
oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

yatzr

rsl12, would that really satisfy you? If I documented myself eating dog? For starters, I'm not going to send you my snail mail address because I just don't trust you. Second, I don't have to prove anything to you. If you think that I lied and wouldn't really eat dog, then you can think that and I'll let it be. I honestly don't care what you think about me, I just posted my personal morals, ethics and whatnot on the subject. I'm sorry to dissapoint you. Last, I can get my own dog meat. thanks though

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

rsl12

fair enough--you have no reason to trust me--that's probably the smart thing to do.

btw, i'm giving up the internet for lent! have fun everybody.

__________________
oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

5757

Recently turned Vegan!! I'm glad there are some threads on this. I decided to stop eating meat and cut out dairy because of the horrible way the animals are treated. I don't like or agree with the abuse. I am in good shape from cutting out all of the fatty foods. I'm happy with my decision. I wouldn't mind maybe starting up with dairy again as long as it's free range. I'm doing my research. Every single person I have discussed this issue with has disagreed with the idea of vegetarianism. Too bad for them. I have people making me bets about how I will change my mind. I don't tell them about the horrible footage I've viewed.
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with eating meat. My ancestors survived off of deer and fish. (aleut & sioux) I just don't agree with the way they are treated and killed.
I've been told that I am going against God by making this decision. This is probably the most annoying comment I've recieved so far. Whatever though.

__________________
Hey! Wait! I've got a new complaint, Forever in debt to ((your)) priceless advice. - Nirvana

skinnymofo

why do free range dairy only and not meat?
i personally have been trying to go all organic meat simply because of all the hormones they use on the animals.

also way earlier in this thread, there was a comment on 1 person not eating meat saves like 80animals or something, im not quoting it cause of its 2year old+ status
but basically this claim makes no sense to me. if you dont eat it, its not going to be not killed, its just going to rot due to no consumption.
anyway, the only person i know who is a veg is my mom, and thats just cause she doesnt like the texture/taste of most meat much. but it also gave an iron deficiancy so take vitamins.

NoSoup

I've struggled with this for quite some time, as my fiance is a vegetarian, and her brother is a vegan. Fortunately, she (my fiance) still eats seafood, but her brother is no-holds barred no animal products whatsoever vegan. He needs special soap, toothpaste, food (of course) and just about everything else you use in daily life.

As far as my fiance is concerned, the reason I struggled with her vegetarianism is because it was so inconsistant - inconsistant with her reasoning. Originally, she said that she didn't eat meat because of the ethical issues. I didn't really understand this, as she ate fish/lobster/shrimp/anything else that comes from the sea, and has leather shoes, jackets, pants, ect. One day we were talking about it, and she finally told me that the reason she doesn't eat meat is simply because she doesn't like it - which makes a TON more sense to me than her "ethical issues" arguement. Obviously, I have no issues with vegetarians/vegans, but I still like a good steak every once in a while, although living with her it becomes more and more rare that I have one

As far as the "fake meat" was concerned, I suppose it does make a lot more sense to me now that it has been explained... It likely would make it quite a bit easier for someone who likes meat to make the transition to vegetarian if they were doing it for ethical reasons or whatever.

However, one arguement I don't really agree with for vegetarianism is the sheer amount of land that it takes to raise meat vs. vegetables. I'm not trying to say that it doesn't take a ton more land for someone to raise meat, but there isn't a land or food shortage - so why does it matter at this point? If we were destroying the land, making it unable to be used for vegetable planting later, I would understand it a lot more, but if I remember correctly, the United States produces more food each day than it would take to feed the entire world for a day. If it came down to the point where the world was struggling to produce enough food for everyone, I would advocate eating less or no meat, but until we reach that point, I don't see why it is even brought up...

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

rsl12

Hope you feel good about your decision 5757--I've been veggie for about 10 years now--it's easier with time.

A fair argument can be made for eating meat, if you are the type to interpret the Bible literally. I guess the most direct quote regarding the topic is this one:

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you. -- Gen.9:3

You may, however, wish to refer them to other passages in the bible, that sort of blur the line on what God wants us to eat:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/eat.html

And, of course, you may refer many other non-food related passages in the Bible, that might make them blush if they were to take the literal instruction.

Well, this would be true if the world decided stop eating meat tomorrow. We could say the same thing about asparagus--a lot of unpleasant smelling rot. But let's say asparagus consumption dropped 30% in the next 10 years. Will the poor farmers be knee deep in rotten asparagus?

__________________
oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

5757

The reason I choose not to eat or drink free range is because I can never truly be sure about the conditions the animals are in. I don't care if the package says free range, I need to see it for myself. I'd rather raise my own. Of course that isn't going to be happening anytime soon, so vegan it is.
skinnymofo - I will definitely take vitamins! thanks!

Nosoup - what I've read from the peta2 website is that basically because there are people starving in this world, rather than using land to grow food for animals we eat, why not grow food for the 'starving people' It takes so much feed for all of the livestock. It's massive amounts of wasted food basically because it goes straight to the cattle. If we didn't consume so much meat, there would be less hungry people.

rsl12 - I feel great! It's getting easier already. I have discovered so many great foods I can eat. I went to Trader Joes yesterday and got some vegan butter! It rocks! As far as not eating meat, it's not a problem at all. I never really liked it in the first place.
I'm too worried about going against some type of commandment or anything. My mom feels so strongly about eating meat and that makes it a little hard. I went ahead and started up a conversation on this subject in front of my mom with a respected member of the church we go to. He totally shut my mom down on any ridiculous ideas she had about choosing not to eat meat and the consequences..................o o o o o o o o o h consequences.

__________________
Hey! Wait! I've got a new complaint, Forever in debt to ((your)) priceless advice. - Nirvana

Blaise

You can get plenty of iron from plant sources, so you should check your diet has sufficient iron before self-medicating. I'm vegan and my blood sank like a stone when I had an anaemia test before giving blood a few weeks ago- most vegetarians shouldn't have any problem getting enough from their diet. Not saying people shouldn't watch their iron intake and supplement if neccessary, just so no one worries and starts overdosing on iron because someone online said they know a vegetarian who had an iron deficiency.

The only vitamin you should consider taking regardless of your diet is B12. B12 deficiencies are extremely rare and usually you'll have enough in your own system to keep you going whether you eat meat or not, but it's just not worth risking when very little is known about it.

And I've been vegetarian for about 5-6 years and vegan for just over a year. My reasons are mostly to do with the inefficient use of land in the world, ethical reasons (On the subject, I've never met a vegan who was totally anti-death-of-anything-alive-ever for anyone who wants to start asking about natural carnivores. It's more about cutting out unneccessary and deliberate exploitation of animals. A lion has no other choice but to eat meat, and it doesn't raise its meat in unnatural conditions and unnatural numbers), environmental reasons, etc. I just don't think it's neccessary. While I believe it's perfectly natural for humans to eat whatever they find, we have a definite herbivore bias in our anatomy which means we don't need meat and there are so many of us it seems wasteful to throw away masses of land and food so that rich countries can eat meat and dairy at every meal.

It's not about thinking if I don't eat meat it's going to change the world and several animals I wouldn't have bought will be released on a special animal sanctuary somewhere, it's more about being at ease with myself and the only changes it can make are by promoting veganism simply by being happy and healthy with my lifestyle, and campaigning for better treatment of the farm animals that are going to be used. I'm not so hopelessly addicted to meat or dairy that I have to go against my beliefs to eat it, and I generally feel a lot more comfortable with myself if when I eat my money is not going directly to support those practises I don't believe in.

rsl12

That sounds like it must have been a *great* conversation. What kind of consequences did your mom have in mind??

__________________
oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

skier

I love my meat. I don't have an ethical or emotional issue with eating animals.

I do try to get as much of my meat from free range or small farms though. I figure quality>quantity and that the animals will be treated better.

__________________
"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

rofgilead

Nowadays, I eat based on practicality. I try to have a mostly vegetarian diet, and have recently been cutting down on my milk drinking and having soy milk more. But - I eat a burger about 2 or 3 times a week, or some other meat product. I like eggs and fish too. I think meat is great because you get such a useful mixture of amino acids in it's protein, good for building muscle and repairing my cells, soy is ok, but the estrogen-like compounds in soy might be bad for gaining muscle - which I am trying to do.

I think too high of a meat diet is bad due to fat intake and it's effects on your body making cholesterol to deal with the fat. However, too little meat or protein and you will be treating your body too badly to gain muscle and will be really skinny and weak.

I tried vegetarianism for 2 years, it was just fine, but I enjoy the meat in my diet now.

Nisses

edited cuz this thread has gone wayy too much off topic for me.

__________________
Moderation should be moderately moderated.

5757

rsl12 - I think she basically thought that I was going to be judged harshly for not following this paticular 'commandment' as she likes to call it. I'm basically rebelling. Not following the word of God.

NISSES - Wow. You couldn't be more wrong. This thread was revived after being at the bottom for over a year, and revived well I think. We are actually right now topic. Gone veg + why. Well, I revived it with - Yes I have gone veg. and why. I then added a little extra: the trouble I'm having. Anyway, I think we're pretty much on topic here.

Rofgilead - Explained that he had become a vegetarian and *why.

Skier has replied in response to the reasoning from us veg. people. So basically he's not *veg + he tells *why*.

Blaise- Is *Vegan + explains *why.

rsl12 and I have been discussing the *"why"* and reasoning here. Seems on topic.

skinnymofo and nosoup seem pretty on topic here.

Sorry, I'm just a little confused as to where we got "off" topic. Maybe if you pointed it out that would help.

__________________
Hey! Wait! I've got a new complaint, Forever in debt to ((your)) priceless advice. - Nirvana