Challenging statement of fact vs. Belief System - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Robaggio · 05-11-2005, 02:05 PM

Why do people's belief systems become offended when a challenge is made to their statements?

Absurd Example:

Jim "The wise man Rufus brought Jesus gifts!"
Tom "Are you sure about that? I don't think that one of the wise men was named Rufus."
Jim "How dare you make fun of my religion? You liberal aethiests are all the same!"

Is this something new in our society? Are people that fanatic that they've completely lost sight of things (moreso than in the past)? Sigh... just a rant I guess. People are so silly.

aberkok · 05-11-2005, 04:09 PM

While I don't have a lot of experience living a hundred years ago, it seems to me that, yes, these days, peoples' initial reactions upon being disagreed with is to take offense. It's like they never expected their perception of things to be out of line with others'!

For me, my first reaction when someone disagrees with my belief system is: "juicy!" or "refreshing!" Of course I live in Toronto, the land of people too polite to disagree and it makes me nauseous every time I hear someone agree out of fear of confrontation.

Have you spent much time on the Politics board?

Let me start things off in the spirit of your thread and propose that this is actually NOT a new thing.

RusCrimson · 05-11-2005, 05:44 PM

I don't have experience living hundreds of years ago, but I would venture that folks back then also took great offense. By doing things like burning at the stake, etc. As much as folks who question my beliefs tend to rile me up, it's not as bad as when they show up with the sheriff, the priest and the executioner.

I should qualify the above. I actually do enjoy it when folks question my beliefs. If I can't defend it, then I probably should not believe it. What does rile me up, however, is when people take potshots at them and either are unwilling or not present to hear what I have to say in response. That's the travesty.

Seeker · 05-11-2005, 06:02 PM

Don't shake my map of reality... for I will have to re-evaluate every little bit of everything I know, and then I may have to face things that I really don't wish to see...

guthmund · 05-11-2005, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker

Don't shake my map of reality... for I will have to re-evaluate every little bit of everything I know, and then I may have to face things that I really don't wish to see...

Exactly. If I'm wrong about Rufus, what else am I wrong about?

Amen, Hallelujah.

munchen · 05-11-2005, 08:16 PM

For people with strong beliefs these things are the backbone of their world and their reality. It gives them comfort and strength. It would be pretty damn tough to confront that. How would you feel if someone tried to rip that out of you?

Vincentt · 05-11-2005, 09:05 PM

Jim "Are you sure about evolution?"
Tom "Why do you people have to all be such silly fanatics"

Everyone wants to win people over to their "side" so they can feel affirmed in their decision.

degrawj · 05-12-2005, 08:18 AM

kind of on a similar note, i have noticed that some Christians that I have gotten into debates with, get pretty irate when I tell them that arguments based on things taken from the Bible are invalid. I don't personally believe that the Bible is the word of God, and I don't take it to be completely truthful. for example, someone may say that homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so. well, there are many people out there that don't believe in God or what the Bible says, so this argument is not valid to those people. but for some reason people get pretty ticked off over this.

asaris · 05-12-2005, 10:22 AM

I don't really get ticked off when people challenge various bits of my belief structure as such, but often its either done in a condescending way (How stupid you must be to believe Rufus brought gifts for baby Jesus), without any evidence to support their claim (Everyone knows that Rufus didn't bring gifts to baby Jesus), or with the implication that if this one minor belief is wrong, the whole structure must be wrong (If Rufus didn't bring gifts to baby Jesus, then Christianity is false). Those three things do tend to tick me off.

Cuatela · 05-12-2005, 12:06 PM

With Christianity (and possibly every religion), there are areas of flexibility and areas that cannot change. Some things, such as the virgin birth, salvation by faith, and eternal security, are fundamental to the Christian faith. Other areas, such as music and clothing, are open to interpretation. Obviously every person must decide his path in life, and only time will tell who was correct.

SaltPork · 05-12-2005, 08:15 PM

There's an obvious gap between science/fact and religious belief. It's one I've grappled with personally. You either believe or you don't. There is little sense in debating details with someone who is a fervent believer in their faith. You will rarely see their point of view and they will rarely see yours. It's my opinion that no one is actually right or wrong, they just have a different view of things and I leave it at that.

I have friends that are very religious, I am not, and we generally have very thoughtful discussions about religion, mostly because I have an open mind. I always question, not because I'm trying to be difficult or insulting, but because I'm trying to get a better understanding of why their faith is so strong, yet mine waivers. I'll stop here before I hijack the thread.

The bottom line is, you should never question someone's beliefs, you should only listen to what they have to say and either walk away or create dialogue that helps you understand their viewpoint.

Cuatela · 05-13-2005, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltPork

There's an obvious gap between science/fact and religious belief.

Not true. I point you to this article as my proof: http://www.geocentricity.com/astrono...ibleteach.html

Quote:

Most modern scholars claim that the Bible teaches an earth, flat and rectangular in shape, which is placed on several pillars which, in turn, are based on a foundation.

Quote:

On the contrary, the Bible was already hinting of the sphericity of the earth by referring to the "compass upon the face of the depth" (Proverbs 8:27) some 500 years before the nations first started to doubt the flatness of the earth.

Just one of the examples I know of that prove the scientific acuracy of the Bible (a religious source).

SaltPork · 05-13-2005, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor226

Not true. I point you to this article as my proof: http://www.geocentricity.com/astrono...ibleteach.html

Just one of the examples I know of that prove the scientific acuracy of the Bible (a religious source).

Thanks for that information.

guthmund · 05-13-2005, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltPork

There's an obvious gap between science/fact and religious belief. It's one I've grappled with personally. You either believe or you don't. There is little sense in debating details with someone who is a fervent believer in their faith. You will rarely see their point of view and they will rarely see yours. It's my opinion that no one is actually right or wrong, they just have a different view of things and I leave it at that.

There is a difference between faith and fanaticism. To unite faith and science requires neither the unilateral suspension of logic nor the total destruction of one's belief system. Zealotry is dangerous even when wrapped in the trappings of religious faith and should be spoken out against at every opportunity.

Quote:

The bottom line is, you should never question someone's beliefs, you should only listen to what they have to say and either walk away or create dialogue that helps you understand their viewpoint.

To be condescending for condescension's sake is reprehensible. However, I believe that we should all truly question our beliefs (and everyone else's, for that matter) every single day at every opportunity. One should always question especially concerning faith and belief instead of blindly following the hand me down rhetoric of our father's and christening it the unchanging gospel.

05-11-2005, 02:05 PM	#1 (permalink)
Robaggio Crazy	Challenging statement of fact vs. Belief System Why do people's belief systems become offended when a challenge is made to their statements? Absurd Example: Jim "The wise man Rufus brought Jesus gifts!" Tom "Are you sure about that? I don't think that one of the wise men was named Rufus." Jim "How dare you make fun of my religion? You liberal aethiests are all the same!" Is this something new in our society? Are people that fanatic that they've completely lost sight of things (moreso than in the past)? Sigh... just a rant I guess. People are so silly.

05-11-2005, 04:09 PM	#2 (permalink)
aberkok “Wrong is right.” Location: toronto	While I don't have a lot of experience living a hundred years ago, it seems to me that, yes, these days, peoples' initial reactions upon being disagreed with is to take offense. It's like they never expected their perception of things to be out of line with others'! For me, my first reaction when someone disagrees with my belief system is: "juicy!" or "refreshing!" Of course I live in Toronto, the land of people too polite to disagree and it makes me nauseous every time I hear someone agree out of fear of confrontation. Have you spent much time on the Politics board? Let me start things off in the spirit of your thread and propose that this is actually NOT a new thing. __________________ !check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

05-11-2005, 06:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	Don't shake my map of reality... for I will have to re-evaluate every little bit of everything I know, and then I may have to face things that I really don't wish to see... __________________ *To those who wander but who are not lost...* ~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

05-11-2005, 08:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
munchen Crazy Location: Sudbury, Ontario	For people with strong beliefs these things are the backbone of their world and their reality. It gives them comfort and strength. It would be pretty damn tough to confront that. How would you feel if someone tried to rip that out of you? __________________ "Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun" -Matt Groening

05-11-2005, 09:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	Jim "Are you sure about evolution?" Tom "Why do you people have to all be such silly fanatics" Everyone wants to win people over to their "side" so they can feel affirmed in their decision. __________________ .

05-11-2005, 05:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
RusCrimson Tilted Location: Massachusetts	I don't have experience living hundreds of years ago, but I would venture that folks back then also took great offense. By doing things like burning at the stake, etc. As much as folks who question my beliefs tend to rile me up, it's not as bad as when they show up with the sheriff, the priest and the executioner. I should qualify the above. I actually do enjoy it when folks question my beliefs. If I can't defend it, then I probably should not believe it. What does rile me up, however, is when people take potshots at them and either are unwilling or not present to hear what I have to say in response. That's the travesty.

05-12-2005, 08:18 AM	#8 (permalink)
degrawj I'm still waiting... Location: West Linn, OR	kind of on a similar note, i have noticed that some Christians that I have gotten into debates with, get pretty irate when I tell them that arguments based on things taken from the Bible are invalid. I don't personally believe that the Bible is the word of God, and I don't take it to be completely truthful. for example, someone may say that homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so. well, there are many people out there that don't believe in God or what the Bible says, so this argument is not valid to those people. but for some reason people get pretty ticked off over this.

05-12-2005, 10:22 AM	#9 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	I don't really get ticked off when people challenge various bits of my belief structure as such, but often its either done in a condescending way (How stupid you must be to believe Rufus brought gifts for baby Jesus), without any evidence to support their claim (Everyone knows that Rufus didn't bring gifts to baby Jesus), or with the implication that if this one minor belief is wrong, the whole structure must be wrong (If Rufus didn't bring gifts to baby Jesus, then Christianity is false). Those three things do tend to tick me off. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

05-12-2005, 12:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
Cuatela Insane Location: NC, USA	With Christianity (and possibly every religion), there are areas of flexibility and areas that cannot change. Some things, such as the virgin birth, salvation by faith, and eternal security, are fundamental to the Christian faith. Other areas, such as music and clothing, are open to interpretation. Obviously every person must decide his path in life, and only time will tell who was correct. __________________ Any sarcasm was intentional.

05-12-2005, 08:15 PM	#11 (permalink)
SaltPork Everything's better with bacon Location: In your local grocer's freezer.	There's an obvious gap between science/fact and religious belief. It's one I've grappled with personally. You either believe or you don't. There is little sense in debating details with someone who is a fervent believer in their faith. You will rarely see their point of view and they will rarely see yours. It's my opinion that no one is actually right or wrong, they just have a different view of things and I leave it at that. I have friends that are very religious, I am not, and we generally have very thoughtful discussions about religion, mostly because I have an open mind. I always question, not because I'm trying to be difficult or insulting, but because I'm trying to get a better understanding of why their faith is so strong, yet mine waivers. I'll stop here before I hijack the thread. The bottom line is, you should never question someone's beliefs, you should only listen to what they have to say and either walk away or create dialogue that helps you understand their viewpoint. __________________ It was like that when I got here....I swear.