Sorry, sir, we're here to take and kill your dog - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Lebell · 05-13-2005, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by braisler

I hate reactionary laws like this. They get voted onto the books by government hoping to placate the rampaging parental hordes after some toddler gets mauled or killed. It is a farce. It never gets featured in the story by the press, but my spidey-sense tells me that 9 times out of 10 the toddler who got mauled was probably doing something unsupervised with the dog that they should not have been....

Actually, it was several toddlers.

I personally know one of them.

She was playing IN HER OWN BACK YARD when the pit bull from next door got out and came into her yard. She was horribly mauled on the face and has since required several plastic surgeries. But she'll never be the same.

As I recall, at least one other case did not involve a family pet or doing "something unsupervised".

So while I am still on the fence regarding this particular law, I for one do NOT like pit bulls. This makes it difficult for me because our day care owner happens to have one (one of the "sweet" ones).

Unfortunately, this particular breed has a track record of being more unstable than other breeds.

Glory's Sun · 05-13-2005, 06:43 AM

here's a website with some very interesting facts http://www.dogwatch.net/fight_ontari...ull_facts.html

Quote:

'Pit Bull Facts'

A lot has been said about 'pit bulls'. That they are time bombs. That they were bred to fight. That they are unreliable.

Before you make up your mind about whether or not a 'pit bull' ban is justified you owe it to the breeds affected to learn the truth.

Fact: It is true that the 'pit bull' was originally bred to fight - other dogs. However the dogs lived at home as a family pet in the late 1800s and lived in the house with the wives and children of the men who fought their dogs for sport, so they needed to be absolutely reliable around people. Dogs that showed human aggression were culled - that means they were euthanized and never bred from. These actions have evolved a unique dog personality where animal aggression has absolutlely no correlation to human aggression.

Fact: There are quite a few celebrities who have owned one of the 'pit bull' breeds that Michael Bryant would ban in Ontario: Ray Romano, Don Cherry, Fred Astaire, President Roosevelt, Jack Dempsy, Thomas Edison, Madonna, Michael J Fox, Brad Pitt, Bernadette Peters, Sinbad, Alicia Silverstone, Linda Blair, Humphrey Bogart, Usher, Mel Brooks, Ann Bancroft, John Stuart, Jan Michael Vincent, Pink, Kelli Williams, Ken Howard (Father in Crossing Jordon - his Pit Shadow saved his life), Malcolm Jamal Warner, Stephan Jenkins, Rosie Perez, Ananda Lewis, Amy Jo Johnson, Mary Tyler Moore, Steve and Terrie Erwin (the Crocodile Hunter), Jack Johnson, Bill Berloni (Broadway show dog trainer who has said that the Pit is the breed of choice for training), Anthony Robbins, Molly Price, President Woodrow Wilson, Frankie Muniz, AJ Mclean, Barbara Eden, and even Helen Keller.

Fact: Dog fighting was outlawed in the early 1900's. Since that time the breeds that go back to the original 'pit bull' of the early 1800s has been raised as a family pet, not a fighter.

Fact: The only people raising fighting dogs today are a small contigent (est. 1-2%) of criminals and gang members - these people are also selling drugs, carry guns and are a threat to society on many different levels. Breed bans will not stop these people or curb the danger they pose in our society.

Fact: According to Alfons Estelt of the American Temperament Test Society, Inc. temperament evaluations of American Pit Bull Terriers shows that this breed has a very high passing rate of 95%. The average passing rate for the other 121 breeds of dogs in the tests: 77%.

Fact: The 'pit bull' does not have a 'locking jaw'. On this topic Dr. 1. Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia wrote:
"The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of "locking mechanism" unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."

Fact: 'Pit bulls' are therapy and service dogs. They are also involved in search and rescue. The Chako Rescue Association has Pit Bull therapy dogs in Texas, Utah and California. Cheyenne and Dakota are a team of hard-working Search-and-Rescue Pit Bulls in Sacramento, California. APBT Weela was the Ken-L Ration's Dog Hero of the Year and is credited with rescuing over 30 people.

Fact: The problem with 'pit bull' attacks is an ownership problem that will not go away if we ban 'pit bulls'. Politicians are distorting the truth and are ignoring all of the evidence that says the bad owners will simply switch to other breeds - and there are many for them to choose from that can be equally as dangerous as a 'pit bull'. Ontario needs strong dog laws that apply to all dogs equally.

maleficent · 05-13-2005, 06:48 AM

I'm sorry, but when they have to resort to listing off a bunch of celebrities that have owned pit bulls.... the arguement is lost... Who cares what kind of dog Rosie Perez has? Steve Irwin? He's the guy who held his baby a few inches from a crocodile? Yeah, that's role model.

Dog fighting may no longer be legal, but it absolutely does still go on and those dogs are still raised to be fighting dogs.

Glory's Sun · 05-13-2005, 07:15 AM

Mal, whose fault is it that the dogs are raised to be fighting dogs?? It can be nobody's fault but the owners. Let's kill them while we're at it. After all they were the ones who trained them right? The fact that the ATT ranks them highly in the temperament tests year after year says plenty. They aren't timebombs waiting to go off, they don't attack for no reason, and they are generally good dogs. A few bad ones shouldn't condemn the whole breed. I don't own a Pit and I probably never will simply because it's not the right breed for me. That doesn't mean I'm scared of them. It wasn't long ago when everyone thought the Doberman was the worst dog in the world yet it is one of the most easily trained dogs, and one of the best service dogs. I think that if people actually knew what the fuck a pit bull was, the number of bites reported would go down. Many people assume a stocky dog is a pit, WRONG. I'd also be willing to bet that if all bites were reported you'd see shocking numbers as to which breeds were more apt to bite. I have a feeling you'd find the pit towards the bottom of the list.

maleficent · 05-13-2005, 07:24 AM

Then whomever came up with that list should sort it by priorities the fact that an idiot celebrity has a dog shoudl not be higher on the list.

I do not like pit bulls, I have no use for them at all, destroy them all, I really don't care, if people were actually responsible dog owners, which I'll bet 99 percent are not, they are just lucky, then I might be convinced the breed is worth saving, until then.. I don't care.

Glory's Sun · 05-13-2005, 07:35 AM

Ok, I have no use for Poodles, Cocker Spaniels, Cats, or stupid people, destroy them all, I don't care. Until I can be conviced they are worth having around, then I won't care what happens to them.

maleficent · 05-13-2005, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

Ok, I have no use for Poodles, Cocker Spaniels, Cats, or stupid people, destroy them all, I don't care. Until I can be conviced they are worth having around, then I won't care what happens to them.

fine by me.

jwoody · 05-13-2005, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

Mal, whose fault is it that the dogs are raised to be fighting dogs?? It can be nobody's fault but the owners.

It's not that they can be raised as fighting dogs. They were specifically bred by humans through selctive breeding to be fighting dogs.

Aggresion is a characteristic they are born with.

Glory's Sun · 05-13-2005, 08:44 AM

jwoody: false

that trait was bred out of them in the early 1900's. Of all breeds I've dealt with, Labs had the worst aggression problems

maleficent · 05-13-2005, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

jwoody: false

that trait was bred out of them in the early 1900's. Of all breeds I've dealt with, Labs had the worst aggression problems

If that's the case then why are they still the prime dog for fighting and not labs

Glory's Sun · 05-13-2005, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

If that's the case then why are they still the prime dog for fighting and not labs

because ignorant, abusive, fucks train them to fight. I can train a poodle to fight if I wanted to. This isn't a breed issue, it's a human stupidity issue.

Seeker · 05-13-2005, 07:12 PM

From my experience (and I like dogs), the owners that usually get the fighting breeds are... not the most social people. They are the type of people that want a psychotic animal because they have nothing in themselves - no backbone.

I have met many pit bulls, rotties, etc. that have mainly the characteristics of overgrown babies. But that is only my experience.

Elphaba · 05-13-2005, 07:34 PM

Ayup, the unexpected arrival of the telephone technician today cause the evil rottie from hell to roll on his back for a tummy scratch. Dang dog can't even put up a good front.

pattycakes · 05-14-2005, 05:30 AM

only scary ass dog for me is a german shepard... and thats the kind of dog i like.

My cousin has a rotty. its over a year old i can pick it up slam it down and hold it by its throat if i felt like i wanted to and it would just lay there. it barks and growls at ppl it dosent know. but dont almost all dogs do that?

pattycakes · 05-14-2005, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Steve Irwin? He's the guy who held his baby a few inches from a crocodile? Yeah, that's role model.

THAT is PROBABLY how he was brought up. i think he is a role model, because of that. He is willing to subject his daughter close to these animals so she gets use to them and does not fear then like society makes us fear them

Janey · 05-18-2005, 10:42 AM

OUCH in light of this discussion, things like this are very scary:

This just in from Yahoo news: my link is password encrypted, so i have to find a way to post it. the text follows:

Pit bull kills West Virginia toddler; finally beaten off with fire extinguisher

HUNTINGTON, W.Va. (AP) - A pit bull that had bitten a person once before fatally mauled a toddler before being subdued by firefighters using a fire extinguisher, officials said.
The girl, who was two or three years old, was pronounced dead at a hospital following the attack Tuesday at the dog owner's home, police Sgt. Dan Underwood said. Her name was not released.

"The girl, her mother and at least two other people were apparently hanging out on the house's porch," Underwood said. "The homeowner apparently told them all to stay out of the house where the dog was."

It was not known what provoked the dog.

Huntington firefighter Jason Price said the dog was wild-eyed and the hair on the back of its neck was raised, and that it rammed the door like a bull. "Hollywood couldn't have made this dog look more evil," he said.

The pit bull's owner, who was not identified, had posted several "beware of dog" signs and was keeping the dog inside the house because it had previously bitten another person, said Debbie Young, office manager for Huntington-Cabell-Wayne Animal Control.

"A lot of people are under the impression that once they put those warning signs, they are in the clear. . . . (But) they are responsible for that animal," Young said.

Young said animal control officials will ask a judge to order that the dog be destroyed

lindseylatch · 05-18-2005, 02:20 PM

this law makes me sick and Mel, much as I love ya, you're comments make me a little sick as well. I see where you're coming from, but that still doesn't mean you're justified in assuming ALL rotties or pits are dangerous because of ONE incident.

If a rottie was allowed you jump into your backyard, then the owners were irresponsible. Just because three children are safe around a dog does not mean a stranger (you) would be safe as well. Many dogs won't attack children, but are perfectly willing to attack adults. And if the dog was raised around the children, then they're part of his "pack."

Now, on to the breeding/genetics aspect of pitbulls in particular. Yes, they were bred to fight...BULLS. They were also bred equally NOT to attack humans, to infact be loving to their owners. this friendliness towards people was held just as high as their physical ability, so you can't say they were breed to just kill. That's not true.
And psychotic is a bit strong, jwoody. they are not psychotic. They are doing what their owners train them to do, kill each other. The only ones we hear about are the dangerous ones (usually kept on a chain outside and never properly socialized with people and other dogs), we don't hear about the thousands more that live safe and happy lives as family dogs.

You people who are generalizing that all pitbulls or rotties or dobermans are "psychotic" are just plain wrong. They're doing what we've breed and trained them to do. That is all.

We have to take responsibility for what we've let these animals become. Licensing dog breeders and owners is definitely a start. We need to watch the PEOPLE who own the dangerous dogs, not the dogs who share genetics with them.
And if you had a pack of vicious pugs attack you, yeah, they could do as much damage as a pitbull.

And a single lab could do it EASY. I've been mauled by more labs (working at an animal shelter for the Portland, OR area) than pitbulls. I would rather walk into a kennel with a 100 lb pitbull I didn't know that an 80 lb male, unnuetered lab, thank you very much.

Another note. The Center for Disease Control did a study of all serious dog bites in the country over the past few decades, and found that breed was NOT a factor. Sex was a factor (with un-nuetered males biting the most) and whether the dogs was tied up (dogs tied up are more likely to bite, because they're defending their territory).
The reason we see so many pitbull attacks is 1) they're a VERY popular breed these days, and 2) a lot of dogs that aren't pitbulls are labeled that way initially, and by the time someone figures out what it really was, no one is paying attention.

Ban the deed, not the breed.

KinkyKiwi · 05-18-2005, 02:30 PM

..reading that literally made me ill..

Boo · 05-18-2005, 06:25 PM

I love dogs.

For many years I have read news about pit bulls attacking. While it is usually the owners fault for making them aggressive or failing to control them, pit bulls seem to be more prone to attacking than other breeds. When they do attack, they also cause more damage.

Truthfully I am tired of hearing about children being attacked and feel that while the breed may not be fully at fault, that the stigma requires action. I believe that if they put an insurance requirement and a kennel/leash requirement on them with a sizeable fine the owners will make the effort to maintain control of their "pets".

05-13-2005, 06:48 AM	#43 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I'm sorry, but when they have to resort to listing off a bunch of celebrities that have owned pit bulls.... the arguement is lost... Who cares what kind of dog Rosie Perez has? Steve Irwin? He's the guy who held his baby a few inches from a crocodile? Yeah, that's role model. Dog fighting may no longer be legal, but it absolutely does still go on and those dogs are still raised to be fighting dogs. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

05-13-2005, 07:24 AM	#45 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Then whomever came up with that list should sort it by priorities the fact that an idiot celebrity has a dog shoudl not be higher on the list. I do not like pit bulls, I have no use for them at all, destroy them all, I really don't care, if people were actually responsible dog owners, which I'll bet 99 percent are not, they are just lucky, then I might be convinced the breed is worth saving, until then.. I don't care. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

05-13-2005, 07:12 PM	#52 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	From my experience (and I like dogs), the owners that usually get the fighting breeds are... not the most social people. They are the type of people that want a psychotic animal because they have nothing in themselves - no backbone. I have met many pit bulls, rotties, etc. that have mainly the characteristics of overgrown babies. But that is only my experience. __________________ *To those who wander but who are not lost...* ~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

05-18-2005, 02:20 PM	#57 (permalink)
lindseylatch Addict Location: Seattle, WA	this law makes me sick and Mel, much as I love ya, you're comments make me a little sick as well. I see where you're coming from, but that still doesn't mean you're justified in assuming ALL rotties or pits are dangerous because of ONE incident. If a rottie was allowed you jump into your backyard, then the owners were irresponsible. Just because three children are safe around a dog does not mean a stranger (you) would be safe as well. Many dogs won't attack children, but are perfectly willing to attack adults. And if the dog was raised around the children, then they're part of his "pack." Now, on to the breeding/genetics aspect of pitbulls in particular. Yes, they were bred to fight...BULLS. They were also bred equally NOT to attack humans, to infact be loving to their owners. this friendliness towards people was held just as high as their physical ability, so you can't say they were breed to just kill. That's not true. And psychotic is a bit strong, jwoody. they are not psychotic. They are doing what their owners train them to do, kill each other. The only ones we hear about are the dangerous ones (usually kept on a chain outside and never properly socialized with people and other dogs), we don't hear about the thousands more that live safe and happy lives as family dogs. You people who are generalizing that all pitbulls or rotties or dobermans are "psychotic" are just plain wrong. They're doing what we've breed and trained them to do. That is all. We have to take responsibility for what we've let these animals become. Licensing dog breeders and owners is definitely a start. We need to watch the PEOPLE who own the dangerous dogs, not the dogs who share genetics with them. And if you had a pack of vicious pugs attack you, yeah, they could do as much damage as a pitbull. And a single lab could do it EASY. I've been mauled by more labs (working at an animal shelter for the Portland, OR area) than pitbulls. I would rather walk into a kennel with a 100 lb pitbull I didn't know that an 80 lb male, unnuetered lab, thank you very much. Another note. The Center for Disease Control did a study of all serious dog bites in the country over the past few decades, and found that breed was NOT a factor. Sex was a factor (with un-nuetered males biting the most) and whether the dogs was tied up (dogs tied up are more likely to bite, because they're defending their territory). The reason we see so many pitbull attacks is 1) they're a VERY popular breed these days, and 2) a lot of dogs that aren't pitbulls are labeled that way initially, and by the time someone figures out what it really was, no one is paying attention. Ban the deed, not the breed. __________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire

05-18-2005, 02:30 PM	#58 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	..reading that literally made me ill.. __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

05-13-2005, 07:15 AM	#44 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Mal, whose fault is it that the dogs are raised to be fighting dogs?? It can be nobody's fault but the owners. Let's kill them while we're at it. After all they were the ones who trained them right? The fact that the ATT ranks them highly in the temperament tests year after year says plenty. They aren't timebombs waiting to go off, they don't attack for no reason, and they are generally good dogs. A few bad ones shouldn't condemn the whole breed. I don't own a Pit and I probably never will simply because it's not the right breed for me. That doesn't mean I'm scared of them. It wasn't long ago when everyone thought the Doberman was the worst dog in the world yet it is one of the most easily trained dogs, and one of the best service dogs. I think that if people actually knew what the fuck a pit bull was, the number of bites reported would go down. Many people assume a stocky dog is a pit, WRONG. I'd also be willing to bet that if all bites were reported you'd see shocking numbers as to which breeds were more apt to bite. I have a feeling you'd find the pit towards the bottom of the list.

05-13-2005, 07:35 AM	#46 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Ok, I have no use for Poodles, Cocker Spaniels, Cats, or stupid people, destroy them all, I don't care. Until I can be conviced they are worth having around, then I won't care what happens to them.

05-13-2005, 08:44 AM	#49 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	jwoody: false that trait was bred out of them in the early 1900's. Of all breeds I've dealt with, Labs had the worst aggression problems

05-13-2005, 07:34 PM	#53 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Ayup, the unexpected arrival of the telephone technician today cause the evil rottie from hell to roll on his back for a tummy scratch. Dang dog can't even put up a good front.

05-18-2005, 10:42 AM	#56 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	OUCH in light of this discussion, things like this are very scary: This just in from Yahoo news: my link is password encrypted, so i have to find a way to post it. the text follows: Pit bull kills West Virginia toddler; finally beaten off with fire extinguisher HUNTINGTON, W.Va. (AP) - A pit bull that had bitten a person once before fatally mauled a toddler before being subdued by firefighters using a fire extinguisher, officials said. The girl, who was two or three years old, was pronounced dead at a hospital following the attack Tuesday at the dog owner's home, police Sgt. Dan Underwood said. Her name was not released. "The girl, her mother and at least two other people were apparently hanging out on the house's porch," Underwood said. "The homeowner apparently told them all to stay out of the house where the dog was." It was not known what provoked the dog. Huntington firefighter Jason Price said the dog was wild-eyed and the hair on the back of its neck was raised, and that it rammed the door like a bull. "Hollywood couldn't have made this dog look more evil," he said. The pit bull's owner, who was not identified, had posted several "beware of dog" signs and was keeping the dog inside the house because it had previously bitten another person, said Debbie Young, office manager for Huntington-Cabell-Wayne Animal Control. "A lot of people are under the impression that once they put those warning signs, they are in the clear. . . . (But) they are responsible for that animal," Young said. Young said animal control officials will ask a judge to order that the dog be destroyed

05-18-2005, 06:25 PM	#59 (permalink)
Boo Leave me alone! Location: Alaska, USA	I love dogs. For many years I have read news about pit bulls attacking. While it is usually the owners fault for making them aggressive or failing to control them, pit bulls seem to be more prone to attacking than other breeds. When they do attack, they also cause more damage. Truthfully I am tired of hearing about children being attacked and feel that while the breed may not be fully at fault, that the stigma requires action. I believe that if they put an insurance requirement and a kennel/leash requirement on them with a sizeable fine the owners will make the effort to maintain control of their "pets". __________________ Back button again, I must be getting old.