ObieX

Should have suspended the child. Then the parents would have had to deal with the problem atleast temporarily. They would have to take time out of their work to find a place for the child to be during the day, plus other stuff. It would be so much of an inconvenience that they would have to deal with the problem somewhat. Maybe the child would end up getting in so much trouble from her parents that she would think twice before acting like that again. It would have eliminated the lawsuit atleast. Expelling a child at that age, though, is a bit extreme imo.

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Xell101

They cuffed her becuase she couldn't be trusted to sit there unrestrained. There were three officers because the child needed to be dealt with by more than a firm voice, and if there are three, she could be handled with a lower probability of incurring physical harm. This was more than 'just a tantrum'. These people weren't out to get her or provoke her. The school did all that it could do within it's authority yet the child failed to respond appropriately. She neccesitated measures more extreme than commonly used on wee kids becuase her behavior was more extreme than commonly done by wee kids. She isn't some crying victim in a jail cell. I suppose letting a cuffed eight year old punk sweat in the rear of a cruiser while the bike he stole is returned to it's owner is grounds for a lawsuit too. Good lord they could develop a complex!

jwoody

I'm amazed that the police showed up at all.

They actually stopped whatever they were doing to travel to a school in order to arrest a five year old girl!

She's five.

One - Two - Three - Four - Five.

5.

MooseMan3000

Did you even watch the video? The teacher involved had her hands tied. She did everything in her power to stop the child, and it didn't stop. The only choices left were to a) wait for the mother (still an hour away, during which the child is allowed to roam free and break things in the school? good call there) or b) physically restrain her. The teacher cannot touch the child. The police, however, CAN.

That's what police are for. I cannot stress this enough. Police are allowed to restrain someone who they feel is a threat to themselves or others, or if they feel that they will commit further crimes. The child was obviously a case of someone who would either hurt herself, or (obviously) keep up her tantrum and break things. The fact that she has bad parents or a learning disability, or that she's five, is irrelevant to the fact that bringing in the cops was the only thing the teachers could do.


What if she's five and a half? Or six? Or six and a half? Or seven? Or seven and a half? Or eight? Or eight and a half? Or nine? Or nine and a half? Or ten? Or ten and a half? Or eleven? Or eleven and a half? Or twelve? Or twelve and a half? Or thirteen? Or thirteen and a half? Or fourteen? Or fourteen and a half? Or fifteen? Or fifteen and a half? Or sixteen? Or sixteen and a half? Or seventeen? Or eighteen? Or nineteen? Or twenty? Do I need to continue?

Where do you draw the line? It's obviously not eighteen, because plenty of fifteen year old children kill each other. Would you say you shouldn't bring cops in to restrain a fifteen year old girl who was threatening to kill someone?

What if a five year old was doing the same thing? Is there still no reason ever to cuff a five year old?

The fact is, they were left with no option but physical force. Since the teachers can't do that, they called the people who can. Just because the child cried about it doesn't mean it was unreasonable or excessive. The cops didn't hurt her, they just restrained her, and that's exactly what they should have done.



Sorry, when the teacher said they were calling the campus police, I assumed that's who'd shown up... my bad. My point stands, however. They didn't arrest the child and toss her in jail, they held her in custody until the mother could take her. That's all that happened.

meembo

I'm not a woman, but here goes

I think the presence of the police was a move to transfer the responsibility of the girl from the school to someone else. That call was completely appropriate. They called the mother first, who couldn't come for over an hour. They called the police next (what they told the mother they would do -- more pressure on the mom to take responsibility). It was an awkward move, but there was little alternative for a violent kid acting out.

I think the handcuffs were over the top, unless the police thought the girl might hurt herself or others. Once the police take control, though, they are there to do the job efficiently and decisively. Being 5 years old isn't the point -- the uncontrollable behavior is the point. It's frustrating to watch a 5 year old act that way, but the presence of the video provides clear evidence of the need to control the girl's behavior.

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JustJess

Mace? Really? On a five year old? Wow. I feel that's ridiculously extreme, and would not have solved a thing.

I can't disagree with the rest of your post, however. While I understand the teacher couldn't have done it, what that kid should have gotten was a good spanking. 10 swats to the tush and she would have re-thought her actions, I bet. Clearly, I don't believe in abuse, but spanking for extreme behavior such as this is justified.
The teachers handled it beautifully, and while the handcuffs may not have been necessary, they kept her from hitting anyone else.

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Charlatan

I don't think *any* of us know enough about this five-year-old to be commenting on any of this...

Sure you can see the tantrum, etc. But ultimately we have no idea what was really happening and making comments on this is ultimately pointless.

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jwoody

yes.

That's the most ridiculous thing I noticed while watching the video. She [the teacher] is clearly so afraid of litigation that she is frightened to take control of the situation. She also took further precautions by having a colleague record the entire event on video, possibly to be used as evidence in her defence.

You can't seriously expect the police to attend (in under an hour) every instance of a small child having a tantrum in every school in the land?

Police officer hours x 2 x Obnoxious 5 year olds = Glad it's not my taxes being spent.

mrklixx

Couldn't the same be said about commenting about commenting?

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raeanna74

I babysat a 5 yr old boy who acted much like this girl on a daily basis. I came to the point where I could no longer watch him. That point came in less than 2 weeks. He was breaking things, punching other children and demading more of my time than he deserved. Honestly I did all I could to prevent his outbursts which were numerous throughout the day. A child like that needs more than the standard discipline. Time outs aren't sufficient.

Apparently from the sound of it the girl acted out regularly. The teachers handled things quite well. The fact that the policemen handcuffed the child was not excessive. She was not harmed. The parents defending their child, saying that the educators followed their child too closely and provoked her is lame. As an educator I would have followed just as closely. When the child is damaging property you want to be close enough to catch things or stop something from breaking. There's no harm in that. The educators did all they could and nothing wrong.

My hope is that the arrest will have shown the child that there are serious consequences for violence. Unfortunately her parents defending her and blaming the authorities is only going to undermine that lesson. Still the officers did what the child needed. Kudos to those educators. I bet their glad to be rid of the brat but sad that she won't learn to control herself.

Parents who allow their children to behave violently without retribution are deporable and disgust me.

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Captain Nemo

Personally, if my children ever displayed behavior like this, serious discipline would be raining down at home. I watched the video (having heard only that a 5 year old had been handcuffed) completely ready to enter judgement against the school and the police. Then I watched what the girl was doing. She was 100% out of control. Punching, slapping, kicking, throwing crap around, pulling things down. And you know what, the school administrators can't stop her, because if they restrain her at all, lawsuit time. Should she have been restrained by the police. Hell yeah. As for slamming her on a table, puhlease. They used three cops specifically to restrain her without using undue force. I swear to god, if that was my child and I saw that video, I would be so completely embarassed, the last thing on my mind would be a lawsuit against the cops. And for those who keep saying "it was only a 5 year old" I ask you, how many of you have raised a child through age 5?

I have, and that is completely, and outright unacceptable behavior. That child was not acting like a typical 5 year old. And another thing, that mother needs to slapped around herself for even thinking of trying to sue over this. That child learned that behavior at home, no matter what you want to think. My kids don't turn into red-eyed, froth spewing demons when they walk out the door to go to school. Their behavior at school is an extension of how they have been raised at home. Culpability continues to disappear in this country.

And for the record, I have another child due this July, and she will also be raised to be a courteous and respectful child. It's learned at home people, and if you want to take all of the disciplinary rights away from the school, lets offer some other alternatives that could have been used in this scenario, and quit focusing on the "it was a 5 year old". God this thing pisses me off that the pathetic excuse of a mother may get cash out of this thing. Great fucking lesson for the "5 year old" to learn.

NoSoup

I think I am going to take the dissenting opinion here, and say that the handcuffs were a good thing. I have seen it happen once or twice around here as well, where the police handcuff a child, typically as a scare tactic. For instance, I was in a local store and apparently younger child (maybe around 8ish) was shoplifting. The police were called and the child was handcuffed - obviously they weren't going to take him to jail, but I bet that kid (judging by the way he responded to the possiblity) is going to think twice before doing anything that could land him in that situation again.

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Cynthetiq

Yet another reason I will not be having children.

I don't want to subject myself nor my offspring to community members like this 5 year old and her mother.

She should have been restrained with whatever means necessary to keep her from harming herself or other people.

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Paq

I'm with cyn.

She should have been restrained as a way to keep her and her surroundings safe.

Personal story. In my 1st grade class (a horribly overcrowded class of 36 5-6 yr olds and 1 teacher), one child started acting almost exactly like this one did, throwing stuff, punching at other kids, just going psycho for no real reason. The teacher simply walked nextdoor to get a teacher assistant from the other first grade class to come into our class. She then opened her desk drawer, grabbed a paddle, grabbed the screaming kid by the wrist, dragged him into the hallway and shut the door. To this day, i remember hearing about 3 loud pops and watching the door open with the returning teacher and a sniffling child. She thanked the assistant for watching the class and the kid sat quietly for the rest of the day. The whole incident took about 5 minutes from the time the kid threw everything from his desk till everything was back to normal. I dont' remember any other incidents in the class after that..

Of course, this was 22 years ago and we all had to have our parents sign waivers saying teachers could punish children as they saw fit, including corporal punishment.

I do not know how i would have handled either of these two situations. I have to give credit to the teacher and officers in this video as I honestly do not believe i could have shown that much restraint and patience. I honestly think that parents will come out on the side of the teachers in this incident.

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flamingdog

How instructive is this in the fact that the kid acted this way to begin with? If I'd have been raising THAT much hell in school, you can bet my mum would have been down there in a heartbeat, and I wouldn't have been sitting down for the rest of that day, I can assure you. And now she sues, quelle surprise. This woman should be spayed.

According to the story, she was doing it as a self-improvement exercise.

Lead543

It's extreme, but teacher's shouldn't have to deal with a child behaving that way. When my mom went to school teachers taught. Nowadays teachers are psycholgists, social workers, family liasons. In an overstuffed classroom of 30 children a teacher may have 10 behaviour problems. The child's mother obviously wasn't going to stand up and take control of her child so the school called the police. She had no right to destroy that classroom and she should know better. Hopefully she's learned a lesson, and hopefully her mother will learn a thing or two from this too.

Cynthetiq

You could sat the same for ANY news item from Scott Peterson to OJ, to Bush and Clinton. I don't need to "know" the individual to have an opinion about it.

Also, it doesn't matter what's REALLY happening there, the person is out of control and a possible danger to herself and other people around her.

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raeanna74

I went back, read the article again, view the videos again, and read the comments. I do not understand those who think that the handcuffing was not deserved. I have a feeling that most of those who stated as such are not parents nor have worked with difficult children ever. The handcuffing was a LESSON, not an intent to jail and prosecute. The parent had a chance to come get her child and a warning that security would be called if she did not come. She knows how her child can behave. I really hope the suit does not go through. I feel so bad for those educators.

IF anything the school should be sueing the parents for lost pay, classroom time (which will probably take at least a few days to catch up on material), stress, and damage to property. Are those parents replacing the teacher's ceramic apple? I have a feeling they aren't. What about the time spent cleaning up after her destruction in the office. That girl won't change her behavior because the parents won't take responsibility for it or teach her to do so as well.

I found it interesting that in the video the officer said to the girl "You remember me? I'm the one who told you're mother that I would handcuff you..." What does that tell you? The mother had warning that this would happen or he's had to deal with this child before. She has NO right to sue because her daughter did this again and she didn't want to come stop it. The child even fought the officers who were putting the handcuffs on. Other children woudl cry of course but most I know would probably be limp and contrite when put in handcuffs by an officer. She has no respect for any authority and will be a danger to herself and others.

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phathom

AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH COPS! THEY ARE TOO FUCKING OVER ZEALOUS!

In my own experience, It was the middle of January and it was so cold it snowed the next day. I was driving home from dinner at my friend's house with my gf. We get off of work about 10pm so we weren't done and on our way back home until about 12am. I signal and turn from the inner lane to the left turn lane, right after I get in it, the light turns green, I don't even get a chance to fully stop before it's green and I can go. In the left turn lane opposite of me a police cruiser. I continue after making my lane change to make the turn, as you know who own a car, after changing lanes and straightening out your turn signal automatically turns off. Well this is what happened, if I had had more time to stop and not just keep on through I might have turned the signal back on if I had known it was off. I get pulled over about 3 blocks down from the light. He asks me for license and registration and insurance, I hand it over to him and he checks it and gives it back, he then asks me if my turn signals are out, I respond no, he has me turn them on to check, and he confirms they work. He then asks me why I didn't signal, I told him that I thought it was still on from the lane change because the light changed so quickly I didn't have time to even notice it had turned off. He then asks me in a menacing voice "How much Marijauna have you been smoking tonight!?!" I reply "None, I don't do that kinda stuff." He comes back with, "Well your whole car reaks of it! Get out of the car! We're searching your vehicle!!" Opens the door and literally pulls me out of it and slams me against the car. He asks me if I have anything illegal on me or in the car that he might find. I reply I don't (BECAUSE I DON'T!) He begins to search me and finds in my pocket some irish cream flavored cigars that I smoke sometimes. He asks me what they are, and I reply flavored cigars I smoke sometimes after work, and that it is probably what he smells. Another officer during this is on the curb just standing there, not taking notes, not doing shit while this one is being an asshole. He then grabs me and pulls me over to the curb and forcibly seats me on the curb. He then goes over to the passanger side of the car, grabs my gf by the hair and pulls her out of the car and proceeds to search and grope her, he then does the same to her and puts her on the curb beside me. He ravages through my car tearing everything up trying to find something that isn't there, and leaves us on the curb shivering for about 15 minutes while the other doush just stands there looking bored, like oh boy, here he goes again. After about a half hour of this whole ordeal and him not finding anything he finally says we can get in the car and leave, but not before issuing me a "warning" about using my signal. All this because cops are overzealous and want to turn anything, even if it's nothing into an episode of "COPS"! I know there are some good ones out there, I happen to know some of them, but for the most part they just like to harrass people and I hate it and I hate them.

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Cynthetiq

^^^

ummm thread jack?????

what does THAT have to do with this discussion?

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Xell101

This wasn't 'just a tantrum' and the girl was not arrested.

The schools are bastions of liability and lawsuit. The teacher already did all she could and didn't do anymore becuase if she did she would be in a world of shit. Since the mother was far off, they got the cops. The child couldn't be trusted to remain seated and not continue breaking and ruffling things up, so they cuffed her to prevent further property damage. Bear in mind, this is a tantrum bad enough that the response necessitated exceeds the authority of the school. How is the cuffing unjustified?

martinguerre

No, becuase it's beyond reason to make these comparisons. If you think that the same standards ought to apply to twenty year olds and 5 year olds, i for damn sure hope you don't work at the department of moter vehicles or voter registration.

Claiming this is a slippery slope is lazy thinking, plain and simple. We make distinctions all the time. We have ideas and values about what is appropriate responses to children of different ages.

If a 2 month old spits in your eye, you cuss under your breath, clean it up, and call them "cutie pie." If a 20 year old does that, you've probably got a fight on your hands. The maturity of the child creates the intention and the ability to hold them accountable for their actions.

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Xell101

When it comes to cuffing the person like this you're not responding to the offender as a person, you're responding to their actions. That she is five is why preceding the cuffs they tried to deal with her as they did.

Cuatela

Your personal experience in one area doesn't necessarily reflect on all law enforcement officers.

(back on topic)

The problem doesn't lie with the teachers or with the officers. The problem lies with the parent and the instruction given to the child, or with the child herself. The officers were only responding to the situation according to their training.

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Cynthetiq

those that are armchair parents should take a look at this thread Arguing with a 5 year old and look at the responses from those that do have parents and maybe you'll see that this child was above and beyond being completely unreasonable.

edit: those that ARE parents....

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stevie667

From someone who was a complete brat at that age, and suffered many many times at the hands of my parents, you have to start using force at one point or another.

You cannot let a child go charging around like that unrestricted, it's not fair on anyone. The school can't do squat beyond telling her to calm down, hell, they could probably get sued by some idiot for that. Anyone who's raised an unruly child will tell you how hard it is to shut them the hell up.

In my opinion, the police were completly justified in handcuffing her, and as someone else said, if that was my child, i'd be more embarressed the little git had behaved so badly as to get the police involved.



Note: Please excuse the cursing, bad day.

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shakran

I don't see why everyone's so sympathetic toward the school. To the people saying the school employees hands were tied, bullshit. They may not have been able to restrain the kid, but if the kid's been a terror like this so many times before, as was indicated in the article, then her butt should have been kicked out. They kept letting the problem child invade their school, that's their fault.

Lin

Handcuffing a five year old child is WRONG.

raeanna74

Getting a 5 yr old kicked out of school may be harder than you think. From what I understand, this is a public school, A private one would find it easier to suspend the child. Who knows how long this went before this and how bad it got. Most likely this is the worst it had gotten and at this point she WAS suspended. You can't suspend them though until it does get to a certain point.

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Bamrak

Did you watch the movie? The kid was way out of control. Someone needed to get some control over her. You_do_not_swing_at_your_teachers.

Obviously her parent(s) haven't shown her how to not act like an idiot, so she was treated as such.

I think the problem is the schools and our society. In an effort to dummy us down and take away the hurt feelings like red ink and losing, we are breeding more and more children like this. She'll get some medicine and be a zombie like every other drugged kid and labeled with some 'condition', when in reaility all she needs is her butt jerked up around her ears.

G5_Todd

tottally agree....

i hope this family doesnt get a dime from the city

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ChrisJericho

When a student assaults a teacher repeatidly, handcuffs are deserved. Hitting people is not something that should be tolerated.

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Strange Famous

From my point of view, I simply do not believe any police officer that needs handcuffs to restrain a 5 year old girl who has obvious emotional problems is fit for the job - for a several reasons I would assume are self evident.

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bermuDa

My mother is a teacher as well, and has had to put up with accusations that she struck one of her kids. Does anyone here who is wagging their finger at the teacher for being afraid of litigation know just how much time and energy is wasted on these kinds of claims (when they're false, I don't believe it's a waste of time to prosecute teachers who actually abuse children), and how damaging it is to a teacher's reputation and how taxing it is on their mental state?

The threat of litigation quite literally ties the teacher's hands behind their back. authority is a lost concept on this girl's generation, because people who should have authority over them are forced to act like pussies. This child is not going to grow up to respect authority, she will grow up to fear cops. For this reason I don't think the cops should have been involved, or that the child should have been handcuffed. The school personnel should have been equipped with the ability to take control of the situation instead of being armed with non-threatening gestures and passive words. This is indicative that for cases like this, the current discipline guidelines are ineffective and need to be redefined.

What the girl needed was to be taught the consequences of her actions. The teacher exercised more restraint than I could have mustered, and did everything she was permitted to do in order to try and get a handle on the situation. Does handcuffing a five year old seem excessive? yes. Do I think it was unnecessary? yes. But cops are the only ones legally allowed to physically restrain her. The child was put into cuffs to stop her from injuring herself, others, and doing any more damage. I would like to hear some alternative suggestions from everyone saying how wrong it was to cuff a five year old.

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shakran

All the arguments that "they couldn't do anything BUT have the girl handcuffed or they'd get sued!" are forgetting one small fact.

They had the kid handcuffed, and the woman's suing anyway.

Bill O'Rights

And that pretty much sums it up for me.
However, I will add that "back in my day", I'd have gotten sent to the principals office, and a wooden paddle would've been laid across my ass. Fear? Oh, yeah. But well tempered with a healthy dose of respect. That is something that I find almost completely lacking these days...respect.
I do not like that the police found it necessary to handcuff a five year old little girl. And yes, I do believe that it was necessary. Perhaps "Mom" should be arrested on multiple counts of child endangerment (how many other kids were in her daughter's class) for turning that little hellion loose on them.
Oh, and by the way, "Mom" was an hour away? What the hell is that?

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mrklixx

I have yet to hear from those blaming the school & the police any kind of constructive alternative that would have a)immediately brought the situation under control, and b) not resulted in anyone being sued.

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Standard

Sometimes it takes force to teach kids a lesson. Living in St. pete, I have seen first hand how some of these kids are raised. They stand on curbs and pretend to jump into the street just to make you swirve and slam on the brakes... they think its funny. Their parents do nothing about it, infact their parents are nowhere to be seen. They have no respect for anyone or anything. They are raised to hate any form of authority. At my former high school, a teacher was assaulted by a student (who beat him with a large belt buckle) and ended up in the hospital... its not unusual to have half a class period disrupted while kids verbally abuse their teachers. When parents do nothing to guide or disipline their children... this happens.

liquidlight

Perhaps, but a five-year-old is capable of communicating and knowing that the behavior is unacceptable, I've been teaching that to my children since before they could walk and you can ask my 5-year-old what happens if she misbehaves and she will tell you.

This child has no grasp on the consequences of her action and I would venture to guess that her parent/parents have been absolving her of responsibility for her entire life using the excuse "she's only a kid." They have to start learning sometime, and in this case it's gone long enough that the only possible lesson thanks to the limitations placed on the teachers had to be delivered by the police handcuffing her.

You say that the handcuffing was unnecessary, what would you have used as an alternative that didn't require intervention and that the teacher had not already attempted?

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raeanna74

Here's a good thermometer to tell if the force was unnecessary - My neighbor girl loves to come over and hang out after school here. I was watching the videos of this kid while she was here and she and her friend and my daughter came over to watch. One is 10 yrs old, one is 9 yrs old, and my daughter is 4. All of them said "Where's her mom? Why didn't she come?" and then later. "If I did something like that I'd be grounded for a week." So without telling them what I thought I said "Do you think it was ok that they put handcuffs on her?" The consensus was YES- she asked for it. If KIDS, who commonly express indignance at "unjust" grounding think that this girl needed to be restrained in such a way then why would we be upset about it?

I just thought it was interesting that these kids were shocked at the girls behavior - Obviously even they recognize that it's not normal or appropriate.

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