veruca

http://www.brooklynskyline.com/news_...p?c=ne&na=1486

Invoking the name “Martin Luther King” and screaming “Black Power!” a gang of up to 30 black teens attacked four white girls in Marine Park in what police are saying is not a bias crime.

The March 30 attack was a hot topic at state Senator Marty Golden’s recent public safety forum.

According to witnesses and parents of the victims, four young girls from St. Edmund’s had the day off from school due to Easter recess. They were playing basketball during dismissal from nearby Marine Park Junior High School, when several Marine Park students demanded to use the court.

After adults intervened and asked them to wait their turn, the teens left - but returned in a pack of up to 30, both boys and girls, and stormed into the park.

Witnesses say the attackers were all black and called their victims “white crackers” during the bloody melee, which raged for almost 20 minutes.

“This is not being looked at as a bias crime,” NYPD Deputy Inspector Kevin McGinn said at the meeting.

“When I pulled my car up to the park, I witnessed a pandemonium I’ve never seen in my life,” said Debbie, a mother of one victim who asked to remain anonymous for safety reasons.

Her daughter ran to the car, screaming, “They’re going to kill us,” Debbie recalled. My daughter was so scared and kids were running around like crazy.

Pursued by dozens of teens, some of the girls were “literally running into traffic to save their lives,” she said.

One girl made it as far as a nearby house, but was dragged by her hair back into the playground by a “wolf pack of children,” Debbie said.

The St. Edmund girls were bleeding and beaten to the point where they had cuts, scrapes, footprints and dirt all over them - and the attackers surrounded her car and started pounding on the windows as Debbie tried to herd the terrified children into her vehicle.

Two girls were hospitalized - one with a broken nose and one with a head injury, according to Edith, the mother of another girl.

According to Lt. Mark Molinari, from the 63rd Precinct, five of the assailants, who attend Marine Park Junior High School, were arrested and charged with misdemeanor assault. But since the attackers are all under the age of 16, they are facing charges in Family Court, and were arraigned last Friday.

“I always felt safe in the area and after hearing about such an incident, you start thinking what else could happen. These situations should not be happening, not in Marine Park, or anywhere else, and the safety of our kids should be of most importance,” said Denise Williams, a parent from Gerritsen Beach.

“It’s getting progressively worse in the community - these types of gangs are not only taking away our parks, they‚re ruining our neighborhoods,” said parent Cathy Miller.

“Nobody expects their child to go to a park and get beaten, with footprints on her head and arm, everyone just wants their child to be safe,” said Edith. “Everyone should have the right to be safe from teens, to small kids, to seniors, to mothers with strollers, no one should fear of being beaten while enjoying a day in the park.”
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How is this considered NOTa hate crime? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

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maleficent

It's a crime... Period. Tagging something as a hate crime is wrong, when all of a sudden did we become the thought police.

The media is what is turning this into a hate crime by mentioning the races of the people involved

It was kids out of control, and should be proscecuted for attacking other people. We have no idea what went on in their head about why they attacked.

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Cynthetiq

I agree Mal.

I've been living here in NYC and have been witness to all these "bias" crimes since just before I arrived with the Crown Heights Riots.

Whether or not the crime is racially motivated doesn't really matter as much as it's a crime and a crime that should be punished. Why should someone get a worse punishment because it was induced by racial predjudice? I don't care if what color the other person is who is my assailant, they are still my assailant.

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Nisses

I guess it all comes down to how true this 1 line is. Media or no media.

Don't know the american legislation though, so I don't know if there's a different punishment, outcome to be had for a regular crime as opposed to this.

If there's not, it would seem rather pointless to specify

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Glory's Sun

There's no such thing as a "hate" crime..at least there shouldn't be. The fact is the girls got their asses beat. The crime should be treated for what it is, not some racial crap. If we would forget about oh well a white guy did this to a black guy or vise versa the justice system would be a whole lot better off.

Lebell

There was obviously a racial element, but I am also of the opinion that a crime is a crime is a crime.

If there are agravating factors, well, that's why there's "agravated" assault.

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Cynthetiq

from the nyc.gov website

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f6twister

In reading Cynthetiq's posting of the hate crime definition, I would have to agree that this doesn't meet the criteria. The group did what they did because they were told they would have to wait to use the court, not because the kids happened to be white.

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Seeker

I may be way off on this but isn't the media and nyc.gov promoting more separation and discord by differentiating between a crime and a hate crime? It's all backwards?

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Suave

This is retarded. I agree with Mal. Who cares whether you kill someone because they're a woman, because they're black, or because they just pissed you off? You still killed someone (just as an example) intentionally.

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the_marq

Well strictly based on the defininition of "Hate Crime" in Cyn's post, this is not a hate crime, or a race crime as it were. However, if a host of white kids ran on the court yelling "DIE NIGGERS!" You can bet your ass there would be national attention to these racially motivated and misguided youngsters.

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JustJess

When you're thinking about this pedantically... aren't ALL violent crimes 'hate crimes'? If I murder someone, I must be feeling some serious violence/hate to do so - even most of the crazies do. But unless I hate for a specific reason... it's not as bad? Weird.

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OFKU0

Agreed a la Rodney King.

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Supple Cow

I happen to think differentiating between hate crimes and other crimes is entirely appropriate, but I don't think this particular crime was motivated by the fact that the victims were white girls. Those boys probably would have beat up another group of black boys the same way if they were hogging the court. Anyway, to all you "a crime is a crime" folks, the difference between motivations is significant to me and the more severe punishment for hate crimes doesn't take anything away from the fact that another kind of crime is still a crime.

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Gilda

I believe that including hate crime as an aggravating factor in violent crime is appropriate, but I don't think this qualifies. It seems clear to me that there was a racial element involved here, but the primary motivating factor was who got to play on the basketball court, ie, they didn't target these girls because they were white, they targeting them because the white girls were on "their turf".

kupokupo

I have mixed feelings on this subject. If it was a bunch of white people on four blacks, yelling "White power", I'd view it as a hate crime -- done because of four's color, probably not because they wanted the basketball court.

And while it's most defnitely a crime, I don't think it was a hate crime based on race in this instance -- they probably just wanted the court. But I've never met the people involved, so I can't tell you what they were thinking.

Suave

The main issue is whether or not there was intent behind it. Accidental crime warrants lesser punishment. Heat of the moment crime also warrants the same thing. Planned crime warrants the most significant punishment. Anything else invovled in motivation is simply different facets of the same thing, and should not be treated differently.

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NoSoupForYou

i honestly feel that this would have never happened if the 4 girls on the court were black

Vincentt

Yeah well... I say what if this were 4 black girls.
And a wolf pack of white guys/girls came up and beat them calling them "black nigger"?

would that be racist?

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JustJess

This might have happened if the girls on the court were black... but we wouldn't be reading about it in the newspaper.

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crapshoot

I totally agree with Vincentt. If the tables were turned the NAACP would be up in arms about the inccodent. If a white person kills a black person because of race it is a hate crime and the white person is labeled as a racist, but if a black person kills a white person because of race then there has to be some other motiff for the crime. I don't get it. I think the tables have turned quite a bit since the 60s. Don't get me wrong the Civil Rights movement was one of the greatest milestones in this countries history...but I feel a lot of negative aspects have resulted also. I guess you have to take the good with the bad.

Coppertop

Yup, if 30 whites beat down 4 blacks there'd be a shitstorm of shouts of hate crime. What a fucked up world we live in.

Gilda

I have to remark on the irony of a group using "Martin Luther King" as a battle cry before attacking a group of innocents. It's truly sad.

Coppertop

The poor misguided fools probably meant Rodney King.

I hope.

flstf

I have never understood the reason for hate crime legislation. Whether I am killed because someone doesn't like my race, sex, religion, or the way I comb my hair makes no difference to me. I am just as dead and they should be just as punished.

But if we are going to have hate crime designations then 30 black kids shouting black power and beating up 4 white girls should probably apply.

Seeker

I'm still thinking that differentiating between a hate crime and crime is promoting a racial aspect. If we were to look at it as a crime and remove the racial aspect then we could focus on the 'act' itself without making it more complex than it really is.

A rule when diciplining children is to scold the behaviour, not the child. The child learns that the 'behaviour' is not acceptable, it is not condemning them as an individual.

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MSD

A so-called "hate crime" is the same as any other crime. If the motives cannot be addressed before a crime is committed, they should not influence the outcome of an investigation, and should only be considered when determining whether an offender is likely to repeat the offense.

Treating the symptoms does not solve the problem.

Latch

That says it all, in my opinion. And if 30 whites beat down 4 blacks because the 4 blacks had the basketball court, that reason would go right out the window (or "hate crime" would just be shouted louder). Just seems dumb.

Bagezio2

But then again, had the kids using the basket ball court been black, it would probably have been a different story. I kno this from experience, and living in new york city for all my life. When I used to hang out with my friends, if it was me and just other white people, and we came across a group of 10 or more black kids, they would always try to start something. But when I was hanging out with my black friends, and we come across a group of 10 or so other black kids, they don't try to start anything. And when me and my black friends come a cross a group of white kids, they never do anything, but some of my friends give them mean looks often. so to say its not racial is just not true.


I would think that after being told to wait your turn, then going and gathering 30 or so people to beat up 4 girls requires some planning...

stevie667

A big bump to that.

It seems that the police are scared of being called racist because blacks instigated the violence, and not whites. If it had been the other way round, i'm sure everyone would be complaining about how racism caused the whole melee.

Another wonderful example of PC and racism going hand in hand.

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rainheart

Yeah that struck me as the most odd. Because if you know anything about black history, it's that "Black power" was a term coined by Kwame Ture (then Stokely Carmichael), and he was very much so against the non-violent type of protest that Martin Luther King undertook to instill reform. I think it's pretty ignorant and shameful that they would first say Martin Luther King's name, and then proceed to beat up those kids in the name of Black Power. Extremely ignorant.

whocarz

I would say that race played a part in the attack. Perhaps it wasn't the primary motivation, but I'm sure some of those little shits were there because they wanted to beat up some white girls. This is such a double standard it makes me want to spit. As others have said, if it had been a bunch of white kids beating up blacks, and screaming "White power", you can bet your ass it would be labeled a hate crime. Total hypocricy.

All these little mutants need to be removed from society. A little dose of chlorine into the gene pool.

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passthru

Why the hell would you yell "<your race> power" before beating people if you weren't racist? If some gang from 60th street yells "60th roolz" and then attacks some people, they're saying their area is the best/better than the victims. I didn't read the hate crime criteria from nyc.gov (btw, wtf..) but if you yell "black power" it's implying that blacks are better than/above/whatever others.
And I'm sure it's possible that some of those kids thought "ok these adults are letting the _white kids_ keep playing and won't let us.. so fuck them, lets get these people cause they won't let the _black kids_ play." which is pretty stupid, but some kids are pretty stupid these days.

Supple Cow

I really think you're missing the point of saying "black power" here. When I was 13 and people at the Lilith Fair handed me daisy-shaped "Girl Power" stickers, I don't think they were trying to encourage me to feel like I was better than boys or adults. That's certainly not what I was implying whenever I said it or wore a "girl power" patch on my backpack. It's usually a term of empowerment, not dominance over others. The only time (off the top of my head) where saying "____ power!" means what you describe it to mean is when the Klan is saying it.

(To add a disclaimer, this has nothing to do with the crime in the article. I still think those particular kids were being violent criminals and deserve to be tried as adults.)

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veruca

wait..so you are saying only white people can use it in a bad way..in referance to the klan?
it is totally possible for any other race to mean it that way as well...

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Supple Cow

Okay, I didn't mean to use the words "the only time" - that was poor word choice for the sake of rhetoric. Sorry. I am not saying that only white people can say it in a bad way. I am saying the reverse of what passthru said: that saying it does not necessarily imply that (you think) you are better than others.

Obviously I don't know why they really said it, but my best guess is that they meant it as a way to take back whatever power they perceived to have lost when the girls wouldn't give up the court. I'm guessing this because (1) when black people experience discrimination, it is a common thing to hear somebody bring up the civil rights movement and what a shame it is that MLK's vision isn't a complete reality (etc.), and (2) they were misguided enough to think that outnumbering and beating on girls was an appropriate behavior. (1) + (2) suggests to me that it is a greater likelihood that they were misplacing rage from previous experience with discrimination than asserting their superiority as a race when they said "black power." This is not fact. It is my opinion.

To restate my original point, saying "_______ power" does not necessarily mean you think you are better than people who aren't ________. My example of "girl power" is illustrative and I think that the point applies to the phrase "black power" as well - especially in this case.

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flstf

Supple Cow, reasoning like that which is written in your last two posts illustrates one of the reasons why "hate crime" designations should be discontinued. If a group of 30 blacks shouting "black power" and beating up 4 white girls is not considered a hate crime or for that matter if 30 girls shouting "girl power" and beating up 4 boys is not considered a hate crime, then what is the point of having hate crime legislation?

macmanmike6100

I (tentatively) agree that we should not have the term "hate crime" because, indeed, a crime is a crime.

However, since we do, I think that this most <b>definitely</b> constitutes a hate crime, and I have no idea why the police are not billing it as such.

Supple Cow

I don't see how what I wrote is a good reason to discontinue hate crime legislation, but I'll be the first to admit that it may be because I don't know the full extent of hate crime laws. When I think of the hate crime designation being taken away, I think of a person sitting in court testifying that they committed such and such crime "because s/he's a fag/nigger/etc." and then getting the same sentence as somebody who commited the crime for a reason that has nothing to do with the victim's identity. And then I get really angry because I think they deserve different degrees of punishment.

It seems to me that this is in line with death penalty debates in that the main problem is not necessarily whether it should ever be applied. Although I recognize that some people would say that this is the main issue, for me it's about how and when it should be applied. I guess I'm one of those people who would rather see it go on than end, and I remain hopeful for improvements.

I also never would have dreamed up the 40 girls beating up 4 boys scenario. This is just how I feel about this particular issue, and it happens to be one of the opinions I hold that is based mostly on a feeling in my gut - the feeling that people who commit what I consider to be hate crimes deserve a greater punishment. Maybe when I learn more about the way hate crime legislation is applied, I will feel differently. If/when that day comes, I will happily come back to this thread to take my foot out of my mouth.

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