CA Govt legislates No Redskins - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 04-12-2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...=la-home-local

'Redskins' Face Possible Statewide Ban
By John Spano
Times Staff Writer

8:48 AM PDT, April 12, 2005

Almost a decade after American Indian mascots were banned from Los Angeles public schools, lawmakers this week are again considering a statewide prohibition on "Redskins."

Proponents contend that the legislation would banish the mascot from five California schools that use it.

A bill sponsored by Assemblywoman Jackie Goldberg (D-Los Angeles) would affect Calaveras High School, Chowchilla Union High School, Colusa High School, Gustine High School and Tulare Union High School.

A similar bill passed the California Legislature last year but was vetoed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who said the issue should be decided locally. He has yet to take a position on Goldberg's pending bill.

Dozens of civil rights groups and Indian tribes have endorsed the measure. The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights has endorsed a broad ban, saying the mascots trivialize Indian culture, perpetuate harmful stereotypes and are insensitive to the forced assimilation of native Americans.

Tulare High Principal Howard Berger said the school, community and several nearby tribes continue to endorse the use of the Redskins mascot, which appears prominently on the school's website. He calls it a source of pride.

"We have never had a complaint on the use of the Redskin mascot from local Indians," Berger said. "We've had some e-mail from people from Los Angeles. That's as close to local opposition as it comes."

Goldberg says the Redskin mascot is racist. The pending bill would have the same impact as the one the governor vetoed last year.

"It's a time when people rather unthinkingly, not with any malice, believe that you can pick anything you want for a mascot and it's nobody business but your school's," Goldberg said Monday.

Her proposal will be considered in a committee Wednesday. The Assembly Education Committee, which she chairs, has approved it.

Goldberg has been backed by the Alliance Against Racial Mascots, a group that seeks the elimination of American Indian mascots, logos, team names and nicknames in all California schools and educational institutions.

The group successfully pushed for action in Los Angeles, then three years ago lobbied the United States Commission on Civil Rights for a statement of support.

In 1997, the Los Angeles Unified School Board bowed to demands by American Indian political activists to discontinue the use of American Indian symbols and mascots, casting aside the University High Warriors, and the Gardena High Mohicans, among others.

Berger said the Tulare school has used the mascot since 1924.

"We have consulted with Native American tribes in this area, the Tule River tribe and the Santa Rosa Rancheria tachi tribes. Both have visited our campus, toured facilities, talked to our staff and students, and both say they have no qualms with the mascot," Berger said.

"We agree with the governor. This is a local issue," Berger said. "I would hope they [legislators] have more important things to deal with."

Goldberg cited a national civil rights campaign over the last 30 years that persuaded Stanford University to transform its Indians into its current distinctive logo, the Cardinal. She said the change had no adverse impact on the school.

"This is offensive because of its historic reference to scalping Indians," said Goldberg, which she said was "a terrible time in American history when the only good Indian was a dead Indian."

If local control were to govern civil rights, Goldberg said, there would be none.

"The genius of America is not about majority rules, it's that the minority is not allowed to be stomped on just because they have smaller numbers. That's a very different approach than most other countries in the world," Goldberg said. "We give that up every time we say, 'Gee, people like the name Redskins.' "

I'm not sure how I feel about this just yet, but the last paragraph seems to resonate with me.

NCB · 04-12-2005, 12:30 PM

Another case of political correctness insanity. I'm half "wetback". Any chance we could legislate people from using that word? I'm offended everytime it's used.

:roll:

BigBen · 04-12-2005, 12:33 PM

"Goldberg has been backed by the Alliance Against Racial Mascots, a group that seeks the elimination of American Indian mascots, logos, team names and nicknames in all California schools and educational institutions."

I really liked that part. Who knew that there was such an alliance?

I have to say that my school went through this... 14 years ago!!

In the end, there was an impassioned speech from our principal to the public on the news saying "We are using that term as a sense of honour... not as a racist thing. We want all our students to strive for the best in themselves, and that is something the First Nations people do every day. We want to follow in their proud tradition."

There was no more debate on the subject. With all the shit going on in the world, are there people really losing sleep about this?

And yes, if there was a team called The Honkies or The Fighting Irish, I would be pretty upset.

liquidlight · 04-12-2005, 01:05 PM

I think this echoes a lot of the sentiment that people getting offended to words does. These mascots have no more emotion or meaning that what you put behind them, if they make you uncomfortable it's because you have racist ideas that you associate with them.

In my high school the mascot wast he Red Devils, it happened to be the name of the concrete company that laid the foundation of the original high school, but every single year some self-righteous religious idiot would come along and try to change it, and every year the proposal would be defeated because the school charter requires that the students approve such a change. Just like the principal said, these mascots are a source of pride for these students, and I think that the govenor was right when he vetoed the bill. The senator has no exposure to these mascots other than what she chooses to expose herself to in an effort to make a statement that contradicts the position of almost everyone that is locally involved.

Ace_O_Spades · 04-12-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidlight

In my high school the mascot wast he Red Devils

no shit! Me too!

I think Chris Rock said it best:

"Having a team names like the Cleveland Indians or the Washington Redskins is like having a team named the Newark Niggers"

Racism against aboriginal people is still racism, even though a great many people who claim to be non-racist still hold anti-aboriginal views.

jorgelito · 04-12-2005, 03:30 PM

Well it looks like the people have spoken. If they voted to ban it so be it. Can't see aby problem with the people exercising their rights. No one should have a problem with this. If you do, you have an avenue available to air your grievances, same as everyone else. Vote, move somewhere that "tolerates" stereotypes, start your own team and name it whatever the hell you want. I don't really see the "PC" connection here. Sounds like people exercising their freedoms and democracies.

On a related not, we had something similar here in California last year. People complained about the teams names of a PRIVATE Flag football league. Examples; The Martyrs, Hizbollah, etc. The twist? This was a private Muslim-American flag-football league comprised of ...Muslim-AMERICANS. The complainants were a bunch of "freedom lovin' [read:white] Americans" who were offended by their team names.

It goes both ways folks, it goes both ways.

Ain't democracy and freedom a bitch? *wink*

maleficent · 04-12-2005, 03:46 PM

A few years back, St Johns University on Lawn Guyland, went thru a name change - I think they were originally the Redmen, and had an indian head as their mascot... after much soul searching by the political correctness police, they changed their name to the Red storm - and got a nifty looking logo

it's a mascot -- do people honestly care? A friend of mine when to the Univ of Mass, their mascot was a minuteman.. dont think we didn't heckle him that he couldn't last longer than a minute.. my own alma mater was the Jumbos -- thanks to a big dumbass elephant statue we had on campus... Who really cares.. we still sucked at sports.

Cynthetiq · 04-12-2005, 04:07 PM

Having schooled at one of two Notre Dame High Schools run by the Brothers of the Holy Cross, I'm not sure how I would take someone wanting to change The Fighting Irish to something else. I take some pride in the affiliation with ND in South Bend, IN even though I did not persue going there. To suddenly change the mascot or alma mater song would be somewhat troubling to me initially. I'd get over I'm sure.

jorgelito · 04-12-2005, 04:45 PM

But "Fighting Irish" and "Minutemen" are not pejoratives or derogative, that's the key difference. But "Redskins", etc are offensive. I'm sure there are some "Indians" who don't mind but that's like saying the LA Wetbacks or LA Niggaz; some may actaully like it but my guess is that it would primarily be seen as offensive.

It's not our place to tell the offended what they can or cannot be offended by. It's like saying get over it or "I wouldn't be offended by it so why should they", because of course we wouldn't, we are not they.

As to why a mascot is important? Well, it does seem trivial doesn't it? But ignorance, sterotypes, and hatred all start from seemingly benign origins. I believe that raising awareness is a good start to communication and bridging differences (just my opinion, and I'm a conservative realist, weird I know).

Ask yourself this: Is is it that big of a deal to honor the request of a community? If it's not a big deal to us, then why not just accommodate them? That's just another way of looking at the issue.

What do you think of the other example? What's the big deal with "Hizbollah" or "The Martyrs" or "Jihad"?

Xell101 · 04-12-2005, 06:41 PM

Of all the things to do and the battles to fight that this one was deemed important enough to warrant so much attention is stupid.

djtestudo · 04-12-2005, 08:09 PM

I can understand wanting to ban the term "Redskin", because that does come off as racist.

However, going further then that into "Indians" or "Chiefs" or "Braves" or individual tribal names is stupid. Personally, I find it more offensive then the names themselves.

As for, "the minority is not allowed to be stomped on just because they have smaller numbers," all I can do is ask a question: what about the "minority" made up of the students in these schools, as well as the "minority" of the individual tribes? Don't THEY have a say as well?

CandleInTheDark · 04-12-2005, 08:42 PM

Recently, the high school I graduated was forced to change it's name from Mohawks, to Thunder.

Honestly, if you're going to fight mascots and sports names, then you should fight them equally. Canucks, Canadiens, Senators, Patriots, Texans, Fighting Irish, Orange men, etc. are all equally offensive/un offensive as Mohawks.

jorgelito · 04-12-2005, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CandleInTheDark

Recently, the high school I graduated was forced to change it's name from Mohawks, to Thunder.

Honestly, if you're going to fight mascots and sports names, then you should fight them equally. Canucks, Canadiens, Senators, Patriots, Texans, Fighting Irish, Orange men, etc. are all equally offensive/un offensive as Mohawks.

I disagree. I don't know what a Canuck but the other names you have listed are NOT commonly recognized as pejoratives or derogatives.
Edit: Actually , what's wrong with Mohawks? That's a bit weird (to me at least).

In any case, if it's no "skin off your back" then what's the problem with changing the name? It obviously means that much more to them and if it doesn't "hurt" you, especially since you've already graduated then what's your problem with it?

Willravel · 04-12-2005, 09:46 PM

I wouldn't play for the blackies or the orientals or the beanos. Likewise, 'Redskin' carries with it a negative racial connotation. It's not appropriate. I'm not going to have a sit in about it or sign a petition (I have more important things to fill my time), but it is in bad taste.

Ace_O_Spades · 04-12-2005, 10:43 PM

The Mohawk were an actual tribe.

Redskins was the European racial slur for aboriginal North Americans

Lebell · 04-13-2005, 07:32 AM

I heard that my Highschool also suffered from a bout of PC when some people expressed concern over the mascot.

I haven't kept up to find out of the "Raiders" became something else or not.

flstf · 04-13-2005, 07:48 AM

Back in high school we were the Trojans. Our competition would refer to us as the rubbers. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole mascot/name thing. Most teams try to pick a name that invokes bravery and fearlessness and I always felt that way about Indian names. I guess Vikings and Norsemen apply here as well.

Bill O'Rights · 04-13-2005, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

Most teams try to pick a name that invokes bravery and fearlessness...

My daughters school mascot is the Bunnies. Not the Rabid Rabbits, not the Horrible Hares...the [insert school name] Bunnies.

However, competing schools have, long ago, learned to "respect the rabbit". When your mascot is the "Bunnies"...you'd better be prepared to kick some serious ass on the sports arena.

BigBen · 04-13-2005, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CandleInTheDark

Honestly, if you're going to fight mascots and sports names, then you should fight them equally. Canucks, Canadiens, Senators, Patriots, Texans, Fighting Irish, Orange men, etc. are all equally offensive/un offensive as Mohawks.

What did you just call me? A Canuck? Oh that IS IT! IT IS ON BEEATCH!!

BRING IT!! YOU NAME THE TIME AND PLACE, AND I AM THERE, WITH MY IGLOO POSEE!!! I"LL SHOW YOU WHO'S A CANUCK!!

You see, the point I am trying to make with the whole "Fighting Irish" thing is that it perpetuates a stereotype, but somehow that is okay because it is against a white guy.

I am of Irish descent, and although I love to fight, I am in counselling. I think the First Nations groups that are upset by this need to relax. Just a little bit.

BigBen · 04-13-2005, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

My daughters school mascot is the Bunnies. Not the Rabid Rabbits, not the Horrible Hares...the [insert school name] Bunnies.

However, competing schools have, long ago, learned to "respect the rabbit". When your mascot is the "Bunnies"...you'd better be prepared to kick some serious ass on the sports arena.

WHAT DID YOU JUST CALL ME?!?! A BUNNIE? THAT IS IT!! IT IS ON, BEEATCH!!

oh. Sorry. I just got the juices flowing and couldn't help myself. I need to call my counsellor.

BTW: GOOOOOOOOOOO BUNNIES!!!

pig · 04-13-2005, 09:22 AM

First thing that came to mind was this:

http://www.fightingwhites.org/

Second: concerning the difference between a term like Redskins and Fighting Irish, the primary difference is that Notre Dame is a school which was founded by primarily Irish Catholics, and thus it actually describes the original student population and was a name they chose for themselves. I have serious doubts that the school in question was originally founded by Native Americans, who chose to take on the name Redskins out of pride. I mean, if my local school was the Columbia High Coolies or something, you don't think that people would be a little bit sore about it? Regardless of how much pride I might have in the matter?

jorgelito · 04-13-2005, 01:04 PM

I think the biggest point everyone here seems to be missing is: The difference between Redskins and Fighting Irish is that one name is used as a pejorative/derogative while the other is not.

What is a Canuck?

And yes, I love your piggy style.

flstf · 04-13-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

My daughters school mascot is the Bunnies. Not the Rabid Rabbits, not the Horrible Hares...the [insert school name] Bunnies.

However, competing schools have, long ago, learned to "respect the rabbit". When your mascot is the "Bunnies"...you'd better be prepared to kick some serious ass on the sports arena.

Yeah, I think the Oregon Ducks probably use this strategy as well.

rat · 04-13-2005, 05:56 PM

I think one thing that people are taking out of context is the term "Fighting" in "Fighting Irish." When most of the universities in the United States were founded, and proceeded to compete at the collegiate level of sports, they invariably adopted "fight" songs of some sort. Just as we at Texas A&M are the "proudest member of the Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 200x," the "Fighting Irish" is simply a takeoff on the collegiate sporting side of mascots. Though, admittedly using the Fighting Texas Aggies as an example is slightly flawed (we got our Fightin' from the Fightin' Texas Aggie band--which got its name because the drum major selection for the band [a LONG time ago] involved throwing the candidates in a room with the drum major's baton...the one to walk out of the room with it was the next year's drum major), the "Fighting Irish" is more appropriately taken as the old term used to denote the "fight" or "spirit" in a school's population and team rather than "belligerent."

As for the other issue at hand, it's understandable how the people of the First Nations feel, and how the team of "Mohawks" were stripped of their mascot. Native Americans, though widely diverse in their cultures, share the fact that there are so few of them left. Additionally, they look to protect their names and heritages, rather than simply letting them be cheapened by high schools of Anglo-Saxon and/or non-Native Americans. These schools aren't on the reservations, they don't represent the Tribe. Why should they be allowed to have the name of people with a distinguished history on this continent? I know I take my family name extremely seriously--it's been in America for better than 400 years. I also take the term Texan seriously, as it is the land of my birth and the land I've been reared upon. While there are many misconceptions of Texans, we are proud of who we are, and God save any of you constituents of the 49 lesser states were you to impinge upon our good name

pig · 04-14-2005, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I think the biggest point everyone here seems to be missing is: The difference between Redskins and Fighting Irish is that one name is used as a pejorative/derogative while the other is not.

exactly.

Quote:

And yes, I love your piggy style.

that's what i'm talking about...right back at you..

04-12-2005, 12:33 PM	#3 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	"Goldberg has been backed by the Alliance Against Racial Mascots, a group that seeks the elimination of American Indian mascots, logos, team names and nicknames in all California schools and educational institutions." I really liked that part. Who knew that there was such an alliance? I have to say that my school went through this... 14 years ago!! In the end, there was an impassioned speech from our principal to the public on the news saying "We are using that term as a sense of honour... not as a racist thing. We want all our students to strive for the best in themselves, and that is something the First Nations people do every day. We want to follow in their proud tradition." There was no more debate on the subject. With all the shit going on in the world, are there people really losing sleep about this? And yes, if there was a team called The Honkies or The Fighting Irish, I would be pretty upset. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

04-12-2005, 01:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
liquidlight AHH! Custom Title!! Location: The twisted warpings of my brain.	I think this echoes a lot of the sentiment that people getting offended to words does. These mascots have no more emotion or meaning that what you put behind them, if they make you uncomfortable it's because you have racist ideas that you associate with them. In my high school the mascot wast he Red Devils, it happened to be the name of the concrete company that laid the foundation of the original high school, but every single year some self-righteous religious idiot would come along and try to change it, and every year the proposal would be defeated because the school charter requires that the students approve such a change. Just like the principal said, these mascots are a source of pride for these students, and I think that the govenor was right when he vetoed the bill. The senator has no exposure to these mascots other than what she chooses to expose herself to in an effort to make a statement that contradicts the position of almost everyone that is locally involved. __________________ Halfway to hell and picking up speed.

04-12-2005, 03:46 PM	#7 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	A few years back, St Johns University on Lawn Guyland, went thru a name change - I think they were originally the Redmen, and had an indian head as their mascot... after much soul searching by the political correctness police, they changed their name to the Red storm - and got a nifty looking logo it's a mascot -- do people honestly care? A friend of mine when to the Univ of Mass, their mascot was a minuteman.. dont think we didn't heckle him that he couldn't last longer than a minute.. my own alma mater was the Jumbos -- thanks to a big dumbass elephant statue we had on campus... Who really cares.. we still sucked at sports. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

04-12-2005, 08:09 PM	#11 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	I can understand wanting to ban the term "Redskin", because that does come off as racist. However, going further then that into "Indians" or "Chiefs" or "Braves" or individual tribal names is stupid. Personally, I find it more offensive then the names themselves. As for, "the minority is not allowed to be stomped on just because they have smaller numbers," all I can do is ask a question: what about the "minority" made up of the students in these schools, as well as the "minority" of the individual tribes? Don't THEY have a say as well? __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

04-12-2005, 08:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
CandleInTheDark Addict Location: Where the music's loudest	Recently, the high school I graduated was forced to change it's name from Mohawks, to Thunder. Honestly, if you're going to fight mascots and sports names, then you should fight them equally. Canucks, Canadiens, Senators, Patriots, Texans, Fighting Irish, Orange men, etc. are all equally offensive/un offensive as Mohawks. __________________ Where there is doubt there is freedom.

04-12-2005, 03:30 PM	#6 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Well it looks like the people have spoken. If they voted to ban it so be it. Can't see aby problem with the people exercising their rights. No one should have a problem with this. If you do, you have an avenue available to air your grievances, same as everyone else. Vote, move somewhere that "tolerates" stereotypes, start your own team and name it whatever the hell you want. I don't really see the "PC" connection here. Sounds like people exercising their freedoms and democracies. On a related not, we had something similar here in California last year. People complained about the teams names of a PRIVATE Flag football league. Examples; The Martyrs, Hizbollah, etc. The twist? This was a private Muslim-American flag-football league comprised of ...Muslim-AMERICANS. The complainants were a bunch of "freedom lovin' [read:white] Americans" who were offended by their team names. It goes both ways folks, it goes both ways. Ain't democracy and freedom a bitch? wink

04-12-2005, 04:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	Having schooled at one of two Notre Dame High Schools run by the Brothers of the Holy Cross, I'm not sure how I would take someone wanting to change The Fighting Irish to something else. I take some pride in the affiliation with ND in South Bend, IN even though I did not persue going there. To suddenly change the mascot or alma mater song would be somewhat troubling to me initially. I'd get over I'm sure.

04-12-2005, 04:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	But "Fighting Irish" and "Minutemen" are not pejoratives or derogative, that's the key difference. But "Redskins", etc are offensive. I'm sure there are some "Indians" who don't mind but that's like saying the LA Wetbacks or LA Niggaz; some may actaully like it but my guess is that it would primarily be seen as offensive. It's not our place to tell the offended what they can or cannot be offended by. It's like saying get over it or "I wouldn't be offended by it so why should they", because of course we wouldn't, we are not they. As to why a mascot is important? Well, it does seem trivial doesn't it? But ignorance, sterotypes, and hatred all start from seemingly benign origins. I believe that raising awareness is a good start to communication and bridging differences (just my opinion, and I'm a conservative realist, weird I know). Ask yourself this: Is is it that big of a deal to honor the request of a community? If it's not a big deal to us, then why not just accommodate them? That's just another way of looking at the issue. What do you think of the other example? What's the big deal with "Hizbollah" or "The Martyrs" or "Jihad"?

04-12-2005, 06:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	Of all the things to do and the battles to fight that this one was deemed important enough to warrant so much attention is stupid.

04-12-2005, 09:46 PM	#14 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I wouldn't play for the blackies or the orientals or the beanos. Likewise, 'Redskin' carries with it a negative racial connotation. It's not appropriate. I'm not going to have a sit in about it or sign a petition (I have more important things to fill my time), but it is in bad taste.

04-12-2005, 10:43 PM	#15 (permalink)
Ace_O_Spades The Death Card Location: EH!?!?	The Mohawk were an actual tribe. Redskins was the European racial slur for aboriginal North Americans __________________ Feh.

04-13-2005, 07:32 AM	#16 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I heard that my Highschool also suffered from a bout of PC when some people expressed concern over the mascot. I haven't kept up to find out of the "Raiders" became something else or not. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

04-13-2005, 07:48 AM	#17 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Back in high school we were the Trojans. Our competition would refer to us as the rubbers. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole mascot/name thing. Most teams try to pick a name that invokes bravery and fearlessness and I always felt that way about Indian names. I guess Vikings and Norsemen apply here as well.

04-13-2005, 09:22 AM	#21 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	First thing that came to mind was this: http://www.fightingwhites.org/ Second: concerning the difference between a term like Redskins and Fighting Irish, the primary difference is that Notre Dame is a school which was founded by primarily Irish Catholics, and thus it actually describes the original student population and was a name they chose for themselves. I have serious doubts that the school in question was originally founded by Native Americans, who chose to take on the name Redskins out of pride. I mean, if my local school was the Columbia High Coolies or something, you don't think that people would be a little bit sore about it? Regardless of how much pride I might have in the matter? __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

04-13-2005, 01:04 PM	#22 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	I think the biggest point everyone here seems to be missing is: The difference between Redskins and Fighting Irish is that one name is used as a pejorative/derogative while the other is not. What is a Canuck? And yes, I love your piggy style.