Lebell

Well, I'm not surprised, but I am highly amused.

I've not kept up on papal politics as of late, but if they have a side line to bet for a conservative or a liberal, I know I would vote conservative.

Of course, I would also guess that the payout for a conservative bet sucks

---------------------------------------

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050404/w040428.html

Italian, Nigerian tied as Irish bookmakers' favourite to become next pope
12:54 PM EDT Apr 04
DUBLIN, Ireland (AP) - An Italian and a Nigerian cardinal are tied as Irish bookmakers' favourites to succeed Pope John Paul.

More than 5,000 people have placed bets on who will be the next pope with Paddy Power PLC, Ireland's largest bookmaking chain.

The early favourites are Dionigi Tettamanzi of Italy and Francis Arinze of Nigeria, both listed on 11-to-4 odds. That means a winning $4 US bet would pay out $15.

Betting resumed Monday in shops and on the Internet on the question, "Who will be the next Pope?" The firm had suspended betting for one day on Sunday in a gesture of respect to John Paul, 84, who died Saturday night.

The biggest bet so far, $1,300 US, has been on Tettamanzi. The company said most bets are for much smaller amounts.

Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras is third with 9-to-2 odds, while Joseph Ratzinger of Germany and Claudio Hummes of Brazil both follow with odds of 7 to 1.

Jaime Lucas Ortega y Alamino of Cuba, Ennio Antonelli of Italy and Christoph Schoenborn of Austria come next, all on odds of 14 to 1. Giovanni Battista Re of Italy stood alone at 16 to 1, while three others - Dario Castrillon Hoyos of Colombia, and Crescenzio Sepe and Giacomo Biffi, both of Italy - merited 18 to 1.

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maleficent

Interesting... I remember reading a few years back that Dionigi Tettamanzi was the hand picked, by JP II as the next pope. Age seems to be working against the guy though, he's over 70.

There's been a lot of talk about the next pope being a Latin American...

time will tell I suppose -- I just know it won't be an American -- (reason I heard this morning, is that the US holds too much power in the world already )

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Mbwuto

My money is on Francis Arinze.

Mostly because he would be an interesting pope.

1. He's black(if the Italians disliked a Polish pope...)
2. Unfortunately he's very, very conservative on church doctrine.

However, perhaps an African pope would put the current AIDs situation into a more public light. The church could do a lot of good in Africa if they would relax their stance on contraception. Francis Arinze, conservative as he may be, will be the public face of African religion and culture.

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lindseylatch

Well, they have that whole "fat pope comes after a skinny pope," so since JP II was conservative, then the next one is supposed to be liberal...and black...and a woman...and really young...

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"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
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Mbwuto

Maya Keyes?

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- people who have fallen into solitary, half-mad grooves of life and given up trying to be normal or decent.

George Orwell

Superbelt

What's the line on Cardinal Bernard Law?

StanT

That would be my guess, though I think that his age works for him, rather than against him. Since popes rule for life, I see the college of cardinals electing an older pope to limit his reign.

Sensei

You can find the lines (as well as bet on the Michael Jackson Trial and the American Idol winner) on tradesports.com

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Slacking off with style since 1981.

MSD

There's supposedly a list of future popes in the Vatican library that was written by a saint in the middle ages. It supposedly lists JPII as the third-to-last pope, and that's why he did everything he could to hold out for so long, because some believe that after the last pope on the list dies, the church dies, or disappears, or is squished by an angry antichrist, or something.

It's all superstitious paranoia based on a document whose existance is questionable at best, but faith and superstition can cross over at times. You neven know what will influence a secret vote.

Nisses

^^^that's supposedly the biggest load of bollocks I've read this week (but we're only tuesday, so... )

I got $5 down on Godfried Danneels. Gotta stick up for a fellow belgian, ya know

But yeah, the pattern does seem to be liberal --> conservative, and jovial --> recluse... Guess they do it to keep things interesting?

As far as somebody being handpicked by the previous pope... I don't see it happening. Isn't this situation one of the few occasions that the Cury can steer the direction of the catholic church? I don't know how much weight JP II 's handpicking will hold.

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

wolf

I would like to see Francis Arinze. I think it would be interesting to see a black pope. There's never been one before. He is certainly qualified. That and I want to see South Boston explode.

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Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.

snowy

Seeing as the majority of the College of Cardinals were picked by JPII, it's likely that they'll pick a candidate he himself would have chosen, if only by coincidence.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

JustJess

I'd be all about the black pope, except for the part where he's supposed to be super-conservative... Imagine the good a more liberal (read: thinks birth control can help 3rd world countries and that gay people are not inherently evil) pope could do!!!!
JPII did a lot politically against dictatorship-type places, right? So the next one can help social injustices!

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

guthmund

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the next Pope is an old, white guy.

A black Pope? Because when I think "strikingly progessive" I think Catholic Church.

I mean, John Paul II was the first non-Italian to hold the office, right? I'd be surprised if the new Pope chosen is a "liberal." I'd be very surprised if he's non-European. I think I'd drop dead from shock if they choose a black or hispanic guy.

I imagine it's going to be Tettamanzi. He's relatively old, he's Italian, and he's white. Not to mention he's the hand picked successor and like onesnowyowl pointed out, the majority of the College was appointed by John Paul II. It's not that far a leap in logic to presume that they would want to fulfill John Paul's wishes coincidence or not.

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Mbwuto

Actually there's been an African pope before. Three of em. Now I don't know for sure, but rudimentary googlage indicated Pope Miltiades was a black man. I really don't see why the shock for a non white pope. Europe's catholicism is waning while South America's is booming.

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lindseylatch

According to Wikipedia, Pope John Paul II was "the first non-Italian pope in 455 years and the first ever of Slavic origin." So, you are correct. and Miltiades was pope in 311 (give or take a couple). So it's been done, but it's been awhile.

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

soccerchamp76

How about a guy with the last name "Ourri"
Think about it Pope Ourri.....

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Pacifier

I would bet on Ratzenberger. Old and conservative, a catholics wet dream.
Named Pope Adolf I. or so....

just kidding

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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Lebell

Were you joking?

Or did you not know that a newly elected Pope takes a new name?

John Paul II's given name was Karol Wojtyla (sp?).

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Mbwuto

Pretty sure he was just being punny

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- people who have fallen into solitary, half-mad grooves of life and given up trying to be normal or decent.

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drewpy

I would look to Francis Cardinal Arinze. Back when the Pope was suppose to die in the mid-nineties, he was considered a front runner. He's also been the head of a couple important Congregations in Rome in recent years. He too was groomed by JPII. I think it would be fitting to have the "third world" be the one's to bring the faith back to the Europeans who had sent out missionaries to the "third world" in years past.

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guthmund

My mistake. I was reading two articles at CBSNews.com. One mentioned he was the first non-Italian Pope, the other clarified to say "since the 15th century."

I should have come back to fix my post....mea culpa.

I can't find anything to suggest they were black. African, yes, but not black.

Pope St. Victor I, was from Africa, but that doesn't mean anything in and of itself. In my rudimentary search, I found only one website willing to say he was the first black Pope. Unfortunately it was surrounded by a bunch of "conspiracy of the white man" stuff, so, I took it with a grain of salt.

Pope St. Gelasius I's birth is confusing as hell. I can't tell if he was born in Africa to Roman parents or born in Rome to African parents. I can't find anything that settles the question definitively.

Pope St. Militiades (or Melchiades) was an African native, but again, there are a lot of non-black Africans out there. Everyone seems to agree he was born of African parents and born in Rome.

There seems to be no official pictures of any of these guys, but I did find a couple of rudimentary drawings and engravings that a few souls put up. Most of them are so dirty and dilapidated it makes it difficult to figure out what color anybody is.

If somebody else can find anything definitive about this, by all means post away. I know I'm going to be doing a lot of looking later.


Sidenote: South America's Catholicism may be growing, but "The Church" is in Rome along with the Papal provenance. I seriously doubt a South American Pope is going to sit on "The seat" anytime soon. I mean, I've talked to a lot of older Catholics who are still upset they elected John Paul II because he was Polish.

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Mbwuto

http://www.rcan.org/bca/bcasaints.htm. granted there's no credit or date for the picture of Miltiades, but that definitly seems to imply that the Father was a Brother.

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- people who have fallen into solitary, half-mad grooves of life and given up trying to be normal or decent.

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jorgelito

Will the new Pope take the name "John Paul III" or something else? What's the protocol or procedure?

Mbwuto

The Pope picks a name, usually that of a previous pope he admired.

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- people who have fallen into solitary, half-mad grooves of life and given up trying to be normal or decent.

George Orwell

guthmund

Well, I'll be damned.

Well, then why is everyone talking about the possibility of the first black Pope? It seems pretty clear from that drawing that Miltiades was black. *shakes head

And my how times change. Miltiades managed to make the Papacy and was black, while above him St. Martin DePorres, born several hundred years later, "...friend to Spanish, Indians, Negroes and all people" wasn't even ordained as a priest due to his race.

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No signature. None. Seriously.

Mbwuto

Well, I get the feeling that a lot of people wish he was black, but no one is completely sure. Of course when Miltiades was ordained the Europeans hadn't quite settled into their role as Christians. Just a few years before Emperor Diocletian had persecuted Christians, though a decade after that Constantine embraces Christianity. I think they were too busy trying to stay together to develop racist issues within the church. (To be fair I knew none of this off the top of my head).

I like to think Miltiades was black, but the more I think the less sure I am. I do know that Africa had been exposed to Christianity by that time, mostly in the north of course, by the Meditteranean.

__________________
- people who have fallen into solitary, half-mad grooves of life and given up trying to be normal or decent.

George Orwell

little_tippler

I know nothing about these issues...I would suggest if someone's willing and has the knowledge, that we make a little who's who on pope candidates, then a poll so we can vote for them?

A black pope would be cool...sounds sooo unlikely though, even in this day and age.

Edit: ok, throwing out some info on Papal candidates (damn, they're all old, they should choose someone a little younger don't you think?):

Cardinal Francis Arinze, a Vatican-based Nigerian.
Arinze, 72, converted to Roman Catholicism as a child and shares some of John Paul's conservative views on contraception and family issues. But he brings a unique element: representing a nation shared between Muslims and Christians at the time when interfaith relations assume growing urgency. If elected, he would be the first black pope of modern times.

Brazilian Cardinal Claudio Hummes.
Hummes, 70, is archbishop of Sao Paolo, Brazil, and urges more attention to fighting poverty and the effects of a globalized economies. His supporters note that Brazil's role as a Latin American political and economic heavyweight could help the Vatican counter the popularity of emerging evangelical churches in the region.

Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras, the 62-year-old archbishop of Tegucigalpa, is also mentioned as a possible candidate. But he could be too much of a break for Vatican conservatives. He has studied clinical psychology and has a dynamic, outspoken style.

Among Italians, Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, the archbishop of Milan, is a moderate with natural pastoral abilities and an easy style that appeals to the young. But Tettamanzi, 71, is not considered widely traveled and some critics believe he could impose too strong an Italian outlook.

Cardinal Angelo Scola of Venice, 63, who is relatively young and brings a cosmopolitan flair from his city, a historic cultural crossroads

Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, the 69-year-old archbishop of Vienna, Austria, who is multilingual and has diplomatic flair

Belgian Cardinal Godfried Danneels, 71, who is well known in political and diplomatic circles.

Europe has the biggest bloc with 58 papal electors — cardinals under 80 years old. Italy alone has 20.

Latin America has 21 and Africa brings 11. The United States also has 11 cardinals and could sway the voting if they remain united.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

lindseylatch

It seems that he wasn't actually black, although Wikipedia (my new source for all things) says that not much is known about his personal history. Sooooo, who knows?
I did a search on Google for "black pope" and got all sorts of wierd satanic pope things...

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
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Mbwuto

I did the same thing. Bunch of goofy guys pretending to be edgy.

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- people who have fallen into solitary, half-mad grooves of life and given up trying to be normal or decent.

George Orwell

niccoli

I actually heard Cardinal Francis Arinze speak at World Youth Day in Toronto. He was about the 4th cardinal we heard speak that week and he was amazing. He did a very good job of actually talking to the teenagers that were there like they were normal human beings....not like many adults do. Afterwards he hung around and answered questions, shook hands and just generally made himself available. None of the other cardinals I heard did anything like it. My Vote is for Arinze....although since I have no vote it doesn't matter!

Mbwuto

Fox news reports that a new pope has been elected. No word of who it is yet.

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- people who have fallen into solitary, half-mad grooves of life and given up trying to be normal or decent.

George Orwell

CandleInTheDark

It's Joseph Ratzinger, as reported by CBC news.

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Where there is doubt there is freedom.

rockzilla

It's Cardinal Ratzinger, he's chosen the name Benedict XVI. Interesting choice, he's almost 80 years old, and not an Italian.

Pacifier

HA! I won!

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Lebell

So Ratzinger got it, eh?

I am surprised at that.

I am not surprised that it's an ultra conservative however.

Ratzinger might even be more conservative than JP2.

Just FYI, the office Ratzinger has headed up for the past several years, The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has been around for a long time. In fact, it has had another name, The Inquisition. In some ways, it hasn't changed.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Charlatan

Benedict XVI... it will take getting used to...

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JustJess

I'm not Catholic... but I'm still depressed that a opportunity for leadership to moderation and true love for all people has been squashed.
I would bet that the next few years will bring more Inquisition-like processes to the fore, hm?

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Fourtyrulz

The message that this decision is sending me is that the Catholic world is ready to do this in another 10 years. For all we know it could even be sooner depending on his current health. As for his papal abilities I pulled this from a cnn.com article: and Who knows where this old dude will lead 2/10 of the world's population, but hopefully it isn't toward a more explicit fundamentalism.

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the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation.
faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
- Merriam-Webster's dictionary

Mojo_PeiPei

Your notion of "moderation" happens to stand in direct conflict with 2000 years of tradition. It really is ridiculous that people are so up in arms over a "conservative" pope, as if they should some how be swayed by the selfish sexual revolutions of the last 30 years.

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