To go from Rape to Murder - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ShaniFaye · 03-11-2005, 08:18 AM

geez......this just makes me sick. This man was being retried this morning in Atlanta for violently raping his g/f.

He is now on the run having hijacked (at last count I think) 3 vehicles to get away because he grabbed a court deputy's gun and shooting 4 people....3 of whom are being reported as dead on the radio broadcasts here.

This person has a history of trying to get weapons in a courtroom....I dont understand why the securty wasnt a little tighter.

A lot of the city of Atlanta, and some schools have been put under lockdown while they search for this maniac.

Quote:

A Superior Court judge, two sheriff's deputies and a court reporter were shot in downtown Atlanta Friday morning. Judge Rowland Barnes and his court reporter have died of their injuries, Lt. Gov. Mark Taylor confirmed for 11Alive News. The Associated Press reported that one of the two deputies has also died.

A search is underway for the suspect, who has been identified as Brian Nichols. Nichols was on trial before Judge Barnes on a rape charge when he grabbed a deputy's weapon and opened fire. He later carjacked several vehicles, one of which belonged to Atlanta Journal-Constitution reporter Don O'Briant, who was pistol whipped.

The latest vehicle Nichols is confirmed to have fled in is a green Honda Accord, police said. Electronic highway messages are being posted throughout the state with information on that vehicle. Police locked down several Southwest Atlanta schools during the hunt for Nichols.

While in Judge Barnes' courtroom on the eighth floor of the Fulton County courthouse Friday morning, Nichols wrestled a gun away from a deputy and started shooting.

11Alive News Reporter Denis O'Hayer heard the shooting as he readied to enter the state Capitol one block away.

"We heard five shots, very loud, very clear, very distinct and we moved immediately toward them and saw this Fulton County sheriff's deputy lying on the ground. We saw officers beginning to work on him," said O'Hayer. "He was clearly very seriously wounded."

"(The officers) were working furiously on him, they were trying to give him chest compressions. They were so desperate to get him to medical care at a hospital that they tried to load him in the front seat of a squad car. He could not fit in there. They tried to get him on the passenger side. They took him out, put him back on the ground, tried to load him into the back seat of that squad car. They had no luck there. They got him back on the ground. An ambulance arrived."

The deputy was taken to Grady Memorial Hospital. A second deputy is also being treated for injuries.

The suspect ran to a Centennial Olympic Park parking deck and stole a Mazda Tribute with the license plate 4643 ABW, according to police.

The suspect drove to Combs Street and went into a second parking garage. A witness told police that the suspect put a gun to a woman's head and stole her vehicle, a 1997 grey or green Honda Accord with the license plate 6584YN.

The Fulton County courthouse and other buildings in downtown Atlanta were on lockdown. Traffic in the blocks surrounding the courthouse was
backed up as police cruisers flooded the area looking for the suspect.

A motive for the shooting was unknown. One woman said she saw the man run past her as she entered the parking garage of the courthouse.

"I was entering the parking garage and just as I got my ticket I heard several shots, turned to go up the ramp and saw the guy run past me," said Wanda Tamplan.

"Another lady and I made a decision to get in the elevator and go down and as we got down the police had their guns drawn and rushed us out."

We'll continue to follow this breaking news and have an update from the scene.

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_art...?storyid=60152

cyrnel · 03-11-2005, 09:31 AM

Does seem like a complete failure of courtroom security.

Reminds me of the "Grand Theft Auto Kid" from the video game trial thread.

Cynthetiq · 03-11-2005, 09:47 AM

I've been watching this on the news, I was hoping to catch some of the Madrid 3/11 memorials, but alas, that little 30 second blurb it would have gotten is going to be even more buried over some stupid schlub.

optik_nerve · 03-11-2005, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyrnel

Does seem like a complete failure of courtroom security.

It does. How did he get the pistol from the officer?

It's a shame that someone would actually do something like that and go to the extents that he did...

ShaniFaye · 03-11-2005, 09:50 AM

The judge that died was a very well known judge here in Atlanta

ShaniFaye · 03-11-2005, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by optik_nerve

It does. How did he get the pistol from the officer?

It's a shame that someone would actually do something like that and go to the extents that he did...

From what they are reporting so far.....he was in a holding room with one female deputy (the one who is not being reported as dead) and he got the gun from her somehow and went into the court room with it.

Bill O'Rights · 03-11-2005, 09:58 AM

I'm givin' 10 to one odds that he doesn't get the chance to ever see the inside of another courtroom.

guthmund · 03-11-2005, 10:03 AM

I don't think it would be all that hard to grab a gun if he was desperate enough.

I know around here, each courtroom has only one deputy in it to keep the peace. From what I've observed personally he usually stands off to the right of the judge, but he makes frequent trips back and forth down the aisle, usually to help someone out or monitor the hall outside (keep the noise down; call for witnesses).

But if this guy's got a history of pulling stunts like this in the courtroom, I can't imagine why they didn't take extra precautions.

From what I can see on television, they're going all out to catch this guy. I hope they grab him before he hurts anyone else.

optik_nerve · 03-11-2005, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

The judge that died was a very well known judge here in Atlanta

Who was it? I used to live there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

From what they are reporting so far.....he was in a holding room with one female deputy (the one who is not being reported as dead) and he got the gun from her somehow and went into the court room with it.

Ahh...I interpreted it as he was IN the courtroom and took the gun from an officer...

guthmund · 03-11-2005, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by optik_nerve

Who was it? I used to live there.

Ahh...I interpreted it as he was IN the courtroom and took the gun from an officer...

Rowland Barnes I believe was the name of the judge.

My mistake, I was posting as Bill & Shani were putting up their previous replies. I thought he was in the courtroom already as well.

God of Thunder · 03-11-2005, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I'm givin' 10 to one odds that he doesn't get the chance to ever see the inside of another courtroom.

Put me in for $20. I'm good for it.

What I don't understand so far is how he got from the 8th floor of a courthouse to the street and no one was able to stop him. Any time I go over to the courts to work on a computer, the ony way out of the building is through the security checkpoint. And this is just a district court. Parking tickets and such. The circuit court building has even tighter security. I have to walk through the metal detectors evey time, and I'm a city employee.

warrrreagl · 03-11-2005, 04:25 PM

I'm not sure what to think so far. I'm waiting for ziadel to illuminate us all with his unique insight into the Southern court systems.

Can't wait to see what he says about this one.

cyrnel · 03-11-2005, 04:38 PM

From AP:

Quote:

...The suspect in the Atlanta case, Brian Nichols, was found to have had a hand-made knife hidden his shoe after a court appearance on Wednesday. Authorities are not sure how he got it or what he intended to do with it.

But he was allowed to return to court on Friday and was being escorted to a court room by a lone female deputy when he managed to take her gun. Armed with the deputy's gun, authorities believe Nichols entered Judge Barnes' courtroom and held law enforcement officers there at bay. He then shot Barnes and the clerk, both of whom died in the courtroom. The other deputy who died was shot as Nichols was fleeing the courthouse, officials said.

This 6ft, 200lb guy, by appearances very fit, on trial for a violent crime, had attempted to smuggle a knife in Wednesday, yet he's transferred free of restraints in the care of a single deputy? Either there's much hidden in the details or security procedures will be changing drastically.

Edit: My bad. Too many windows. Quote was from FoxNews.

M.T. Promises · 03-11-2005, 05:23 PM

It goes to show, any place civilians aren't allowed to carry firearms, neither should law enforcement. I'd view gun controls laws much more favorably if they applied to law enforcement and the government as well. I have family that are 'on the job' and not one has a a story (I've heard) about saving a person during the commission of a crime. They have some good stories mind you, 'specially the one that was TnT in NYC years back and they're good people... but I don't really see the need for them to be armed for 90% of their work. I'd bet $5 dollars right now that more cops are shot by police issued guns then privately owned.

I think there is a solid misconception amongst many people that laws and police keep us safe. The reason why were safe is due to the simple fact that 99% of the population aren't killers/rapist or violent people with no regard for human life.

Arroe · 03-12-2005, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.T. Promises

It goes to show, any place civilians aren't allowed to carry firearms, neither should law enforcement. I'd view gun controls laws much more favorably if they applied to law enforcement and the government as well. I have family that are 'on the job' and not one has a a story (I've heard) about saving a person during the commission of a crime. They have some good stories mind you, 'specially the one that was TnT in NYC years back and they're good people... but I don't really see the need for them to be armed for 90% of their work. I'd bet $5 dollars right now that more cops are shot by police issued guns then privately owned.

I think there is a solid misconception amongst many people that laws and police keep us safe. The reason why were safe is due to the simple fact that 99% of the population aren't killers/rapist or violent people with no regard for human life.

Or just don't have one woman escort a huge black man with a history of violence into a court room. Not trying to be sexist, I wouldn't even think having him escorted by a small man would be sufficient. This guy obviously needed more security.

03-12-2005, 02:22 AM

i feel bad for the people who were hurt and the girlfriend and all, but it's kind of neat to imagine someone on trial grabbing a gun and shooting the judge. i mean, he's really high up there and all by himself. but really, if the guy was tryign to get away, he had no reason to shoot the judge at all?

Strange Famous · 03-12-2005, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I'm givin' 10 to one odds that he doesn't get the chance to ever see the inside of another courtroom.

I would agree. He'll either get far enough to disappear (if he is smart enough), or the police will kill him.

03-12-2005, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitsune

i feel bad for the people who were hurt and the girlfriend and all, but it's kind of neat to imagine someone on trial grabbing a gun and shooting the judge. i mean, he's really high up there and all by himself. but really, if the guy was tryign to get away, he had no reason to shoot the judge at all?

Its kind of neat .I dont think Id use that word.

Ive seen his picture and he's a big guy so where were their brains? Its sad, very sad.

MSD · 03-12-2005, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arroe

Or just don't have one woman escort a huge black man with a history of violence into a court room. Not trying to be sexist, I wouldn't even think having him escorted by a small man would be sufficient. This guy obviously needed more security.

Can I safely assume you weren't trying to be racist, either?

cyrnel · 03-12-2005, 08:36 AM

Quote:

U.S. Customs Agent Found Dead
A.P.

ATLANTA — Hundreds of law officials extended their massive search for a man suspected in a courthouse triple slaying as officials on Saturday tried to determine whether the fatal shooting of a U.S. customs agent was related.

The agent was found dead Saturday, and officials said his blue 1994 Chevrolet pickup (search), pistol and badge were stolen.

The shooting occurred in the same general area where courthouse rampage suspect Brian Nichols used to live. ...

Might be a coincidence, might be victim #4. I can't help but rewind to the use of a single deputy.

Those of you mentioning removing guns from the equation may be onto something. While I wouldn't advocate it outside the courthouse, a number of stories speak to a reduction in courthouse incidents after firearms are removed from officers. I'm talking out my butt here, but It seems to me that the close quarters and friend/foe ratio makes arming officers more of a hazard than a benefit, except perhaps at exit locations.

ShaniFaye · 03-13-2005, 10:38 AM

Although we were out of town, we kept the tv in the cabin on CNN almost all weekend. It was kinda freaky when they got him...the apt complex he was at is less than 5 minutes from the house

Zyeox · 03-13-2005, 04:44 PM

You know this guy had to be freakin insane or something. The guy escapes from the woman taking him to court instead of leaving he goes to his courtroom and kills ppl. Why? Dude just leave I mean shit now you got 4 ppl that you killed and you wont ever see another day again. Plus the first trial ended in your favor. I admit the new one didnt look so good but you would at least get out in the next 10 years or so. Now you are up for the death penalty stupid ppl I just dont understand them.

Arroe · 03-14-2005, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Can I safely assume you weren't trying to be racist, either?

hell no, he could have been a huge white man too

fulltiltgonzo · 03-14-2005, 04:32 AM

I think that once he decided to up the ante from rape to murder, he should have also chosen to go out in a blaze of glory, not waving a white flag.

I mean...if you're so against going to jail that you shoot four people (killing three) why would you even consider giving yourself up?

I'm not saying he needed to shoot it out with the cops, but he could have finished the deed by killing himself and saved the taxpayers the expense of a trial, incarceration, and ultimately execution...

animosity · 03-14-2005, 07:02 AM

*edit* oops... nvm.

ShaniFaye · 03-14-2005, 07:09 AM

um....as I stated previously in this thread he was caught on Saturday at an apt complex right near my house.

here is a transcript of the statement the last hostage gave in a news conference last nite.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/sm...ipt/index.html

Quote:

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Ashley Smith was held hostage in her apartment by courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols. She spent several hours with him before getting away and calling 911.

On Sunday, she spoke to reporters in her attorney's office and described what happened.

SMITH: It was about 2 o'clock in the morning. I was at -- I was leaving my apartment to go to the store. I noticed a blue truck in the parking lot with a man in it pulling up. And he parked in the parking space. And I really didn't think too much about it because I just moved into that apartment, you know, 2 days prior. So, I thought maybe he was a neighbor coming home or something.

So, I left and went to the store. And I came back to my apartment about 5 minutes later. And the truck was still there. And he was still in it. And it was in a different parking space. It was actually behind one where I had left. So, I pulled back in there.

And I kind of got a little worried then. I thought there's somebody still in that truck. So I got my key to my house ready. And I opened up my car door and I got out and shut it. And I heard his shut right behind me.

I started walking to my door and I felt really, really scared ...

He said, "I'm not going hurt you if you just do what I say." I said, "all right." So, I got -- he told me to get into the bath tub, so I got in the bath tub. And he said, "I really don't feel comfortable around here, I'm going to walk around your house for a few minutes just so I get the feel of it."

I said, "OK."

He said, "I don't want hurt you. I don't want to hurt anybody else, so please don't do anything that's going to hurt you." He said, "you know, somebody could have heard your scream already. And if they did, the police are on the way. And I'm going to have to hold you hostage. And I'm going to have to kill you and probably myself and lots of other people. And I don't want that."

And I said, "OK. I will do what you say."

He looked around my house for a few minutes. I heard him opening up drawers and just going through my stuff. And he came back in. And he said, "I want to relax. And I don't feel comfortable with you right now. So, I'm going to have tie you up."

He brought some masking tape and an extension cord and a curtain in there. And I kind of thought he was going to strangle me. I was -- I was really kind of scared.

But he told me to turn around and put my hands behind my back. And he wrapped my hands in a prayer -- in a praying position, so I did that. And he wrapped masking tape around my hands.

And then he told me to go into my bedroom. And I sat down on the bed like he asked. And he wrapped my legs with masking tape and an extension cord. He also took a curtain and put it around my stomach. And he asked me if I could get up. And I got up.

He said, "Can you walk?"

And I said, "No."

And so he picked me up and took me to the bathroom. And he put me on a stool that I have in my bathroom. He said he wanted to take a shower.

So I said, "OK. You take a shower."

He said, "Well I'm going to put a towel over your head so you don't have to watch me take a shower."

So I said, "OK. All right."

He got in the shower. Took a shower. And then he got out of the shower. And he had the guns laying on the counter. But -- I guess he really wasn't worried about me grabbing them, because I was tied up.

He asked me if I had a T-shirt. I told him where to find one.

So, he got dressed. He put on some clothes that I had in my house that were men's clothes. And then he came back in the bathroom.

He said, "Can you get up?"

So I got up.

He said, "Can you walk now?"

I said, "No, but I can hop."

So I hopped to my bedroom and sat on the bed. And he cut the tape off of me, unwrapped the extension cord and curtain.

I guess, at that point, he kind of made me feel like he was comfortable enough with me that he untied me.

So -- we went back in the bathroom. That's where he felt more comfortable -- in the bathroom away from the front of the house, I guess. And we just talked.

I asked him if -- I told him that I was supposed to go see my little girl the next morning. And I asked him if I could go see her. And he told me no.

My husband died four years ago. And I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning. That if he didn't let me go, she would be really upset.

He still told me no.

But I could kind of feel that he started to -- to know who I was. He said, maybe. Maybe I'll let you go -- just maybe. We'll see how things go.

We went to my room. And I asked him if I could read.

He said, "What do you want to read?"

"Well, I have a book in my room." So I went and got it. I got my Bible. And I got a book called "The Purpose-Driven Life."

I turned it to the chapter that I was on that day. It was chapter 33. And I started to read the first paragraph of it. After I read it, he said, "Stop, will you read it again?"

I said, "Yeah. I'll read it again."

So I read it again to him.

It mentioned something about what you thought you're purpose in life was. What were you -- what talents were you give? What gifts were you given to use?

And I asked him what he thought. And he said, "I think it was to talk to people and tell them about you."

I basically just talked to him and tried to gain his trust. I wanted to leave to go see my daughter. That was really important. I didn't want him to hurt anybody else.

He came into my apartment telling me that he was a soldier. And that people -- that his people needed him for a job to do. And he was doing it.

And -- I didn't want him to hurt anybody else. He didn't want to hurt anybody else. He just told me that he wanted a place to stay to relax, to sit down and watch TV, to eat some real food.

I talked to him about my family. I told him about things that had happened in my life. I asked him about his family. I asked him why he did what he did.

And his reason was because he was a soldier.

I asked him why he chose me and why he chose Bridgewater Apartments. And he said he didn't know, just randomly.

But after we began to talk, he said he thought that I was an angel sent from God. And that I was his sister and he was my brother in Christ. And that he was lost and God lead him right to me to tell him that he had hurt a lot of people. And the families -- the people -- to let him know how they felt, because I had gone through it myself.

He told me that he didn't -- he didn't want to hurt the agent that he hurt. He begged and pleaded with him to do things his way, and he didn't. So he had to kill him.

He said that he didn't shoot the deputy, that he hit her. And that he hoped she lived.

He showed me a picture of the -- the agent that he did kill. And I tried to explain to him that he killed a 40-year-old man that was probably a father, a husband, a friend.

And he really began to trust me, to feel my feelings. He looked at pictures of my family. He asked me to -- if he could look at them and hold them ...

I really didn't keep track of time too much, because I was really worried about just living. I didn't want to die. I didn't want him to hurt anybody else. And I really didn't want him to hurt himself or anyone else to hurt him. He's done enough -- he had done enough. And he really, honestly when I looked at him, he looked like he didn't want to do it any more.

He asked me what I thought he should do.

And I said, "I think you should turn yourself in. If you don't turn yourself in," this is what I said, "if you don't turn yourself in, lots more people are going to get hurt. And you're probably going to die."

And he said, "I don't want that to happen."

He said, "Can I stay here for a few days? I just want to eat some real food and watch some TV and sleep and just do normal things that normal people do."

So, of course I said, "Sure. You can stay here." I didn't want -- I wanted to gain his trust.

Most of my time was spent talking to this man about my life and experiences in my life, things that had happened to me.

He needed hope for his life. He told me that he was already dead. He said, "Look at me, look at my eyes. I am already dead."

And I said, "You are not dead. You are standing right in front of me. If you want to die, you can. It's your choice."

But after I started to read to him, he saw -- I guess he saw my faith and what I really believed in. And I told him I was a child of God and that I wanted to do God's will. I guess he began to want to. That's what I think.

He got to know me. I got to know me. He talked about his family. How -- he was wondering what they were thinking. He said, they're probably -- don't know what to think.

We watched the news. He looked at the TV and he just said, I can not believe that's me on there.

About 5:36 -- well, 6:00, 6:30, he said, "I need to make a move." And I said, "A move?" He said, "I need to get rid of this car before daylight, this truck." I said, "OK."

I knew that if I didn't agree to go with him, follow him to get the truck -- he'd just take the truck, then one thing -- or two -- one of two things. He would kill me right then, and say, all right, well, if you're not going to help me, then I won't need you anymore. Or the police would never find him, or it would take longer. And someone else would get hurt, and I was trying to avoid that.

So I went. And he said -- "I said, can I take my cell phone?" He said, "Do you want to?" I said, "Yeah." I'm thinking, well, I might call the police then, and I might not. So I took it anyway. He didn't take any guns with him. The guns were laying around the house. Pretty much after he untied, they were just laying around the house.

And at one point, he said, "You know, I'd rather you shoot -- the guns are laying in there -- I'd rather you shoot me than them." I said, "I don't want anyone else to die, not even you."

So we went to take the truck, and I was behind him, following him. And I thought about calling the police, you know, I thought, he's about to be in the car with me right now. So I can call the police, and when he gets in the car, then they can surround me and him together, and I could possibly get hurt, or we can go back to my house.

And I really felt deep down inside that he was going to let me see my little girl. And I said -- or then when I leave, he can be there by himself, or he -- he finally agreed to let me go see my daughter. I had to leave at 9:00, 9:30. And I really believed that he was going to.

From the time he walked into my house until we were taking that truck, he was a totally different person to me. I felt very threatened, scared. I felt he was going to kill me when -- when I first -- when he first put the gun to my side, but when I followed him to pick -- to take the truck. I felt he was going to -- he was really going to turn himself in. So he took the truck.

He got in the car, and I said, "Are you ready now?" And he said, "Give me a few days, please." I said, "Come on, you've got to turn yourself in now." I didn't feel like he might -- I felt like he might change his mind, that he might not want to turn himself in the next day, or a few days after that, and that if he did feel that way, then he would need money, and the only way he could get money was if he hurt somebody and took it from them.

So we went back to my house, and got in the house. And he was hungry, so I cooked him breakfast. He was overwhelmed with -- "Wow," he said, "real butter, pancakes?"

And I just talked with him a little more, just about -- about -- we pretty much talked about God ... what his reason was, why he made it out of there.

I said, "Do you believe in miracles? Because if you don't believe in miracles -- you are here for a reason. You're here in my apartment for some reason. You got out of that courthouse with police everywhere, and you don't think that's a miracle? You don't think you're supposed to be sitting here right in front of me listening to me tell you, you know, your reason here?"

I said, "You know, your miracle could be that you need to -- you need to be caught for this. You need to go to prison and you need to share the word of God with them, with all the prisoners there."

Then 9:00 came. He said, "What time do you have to leave?" I said, "I need to be there at 10:00, so I need to leave about 9:30." And I sat down and talked to him a little bit more. And he put the guns under the bed, like ... I'm not going to mess around with them anymore.

He gave me some money when I was about to leave. Just kind of like he knew. I said, "You might need this money." And he said, "No, I don't need it. I'm going to be here for the next few days."

I basically said, keep the money. And he said, no, I don't need it. He asked me if there was anything I could do -- or he could do for me before I left, or while I was going. He says, "Is there anything I can do while you're gone?"

I know he was probably hoping deep down that I was going to come back, but I think he knew that I was going to -- what I had to do, and I had to turn him in, and I gave him -- I asked him several times, you know come on, just go with me. He said, "I'll go with you in a few days."

But when he asked me, "Is there anything I can do while you're gone, like hang your curtains or something?" And I said, "Yeah, if you want to."

He just wanted some normalness to his life right then. He -- I think he realized all this -- all this that I've been through, this is not me. I don't know, that's my opinion of what he ...

Then I left my house at 9:30. And I got in the car. And I immediately called 911. I told them that he was there, and she asked me where I was. I said, "Oh, I'm on my way to see my daughter." I felt glad to just really be on my way to see my daughter. She said, "You got to turn around and go to the leasing office." So that's what I did.

djtestudo · 03-14-2005, 08:15 PM

The guy is from Baltimore, and this has been all over the local news here. Apparently he wasn't a bad kid (according to reports) in school, but sometime after graduating he lost his way, and now this.

Definately doing a lot for the reputation of his hometown

At least he'll almost assuredly end up with a needle in his arm.

Hain · 03-14-2005, 08:56 PM

For Goodness sakes... what has really happened to our society? How can so many have lost sight of what is really important in this life? I am glad that man was caught. If you can really call this guy a man after all that he has done. I believe in monsters and this man qualifies.
If anything this should prove that non-lethal weapons should be used for security.

If anyone gets news all the way from Illinois, I live near Gurnee and this tragedy happened.

Quote:

ABC 7 Chicago
Gurnee residents among the dead in hotel shooting

By Michelle Gallardo
March 13, 2005 (Brookfield, Wisconsin) — Eight people are dead including a father and son from Gurnee after a gunman opened fire Saturday afternoon at a church service inside a suburban Milwaukee hotel. The shooting was in the town of Brookfield that is just west of Milwaukee.
Wisconsin police still have not come up with a motive for the deadly shooting, but more information is coming to light about those who were killed. Two of them, were Illinois residents.
One, was the church's leader, the other his teenage son. His wife was also shot. And while she is alive, she remains in serious condition.

So how do you go from parishinor to murderer?
I didn't know them personally, but the teen was on a scholastic team--the same thing I participated in. How the hell do these people see this as a right thing to do? Just because their life is a miserable piece of shit they feel they must ruin some one else with them.

Believe in monsters... some of us thought like them. Believe in monsters and humans both, for each can hurt each other more than known, and sometimes know more than should be.

Zeraph · 03-14-2005, 08:59 PM

That's crap. If someone disturbs or goes against the peace in a courtroom (violence..not yelling) they should not get the priveledge of having a trial, straight to maxium secuirty prison for them. Now that I think of it, courtrooms do have rather low security, Im surprised this doesnt happen more often.

Hain · 03-14-2005, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

That's crap. If someone disturbs or goes against the peace in a courtroom (violence..not yelling) they should not get the priveledge of having a trial, straight to maxium secuirty prison for them. Now that I think of it, courtrooms do have rather low security, Im surprised this doesnt happen more often.

You are absolutely right. You should also noticed that our justice system is designed to cater to the convicted rather than to the victim's and families left behind? Yes it is pure nonsense but welcome to America.

M.T. Promises · 03-15-2005, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augi

You are absolutely right. You should also noticed that our justice system is designed to cater to the convicted rather than to the victim's and families left behind? Yes it is pure nonsense but welcome to America.

By cater to the convicted are you talking about the jail we provide them? or the food in said jail? should we jail the victim instead?

I assume you mean 'suspect' as opposed to 'convicted' and I assume you are talking about some problem you perceive with the court system... but what? Victims don't have to pay bail, or even show up at trail every day. The 'free' prosecutor is better then his 'free' counter part on the defense side. Would kangaroo courts be better? Guilty Guilty Guilty... next

As for the woman who was his last hostage... what a fruitcake. I think this must be a manifestation of the 'Helsinki Syndrome' from Die Hard (really the Stockholm Syndrome) She was in her car with a cell phone following him in his truck and she didn't call the cops and drive in a differnt direction... she's lucky the outcome wasn't very different.

ShaniFaye · 03-15-2005, 11:50 AM

If you heard any of the interviews she's done you'd know this was in no way a case of stockholm syndrome, the reason she didnt call the cops when they moved the truck is because she didnt want anyone else getting hurt including herself.

She has stated many times that this man deserves to pay for what he did and she has no illusions about him whatsoever.

Im curious as to why you call her a fruitcake?

M.T. Promises · 03-15-2005, 12:46 PM

She's a fruitcake because of the fact she didn't call the police the first chance she got... I could understand her not wanting to be a hostage, but she was in her own car without him and she had a cell phone. Talk about a dense fool... aka fruitcake

Quote:

I said, "Do you believe in miracles? Because if you don't believe in miracles -- you are here for a reason. You're here in my apartment for some reason. You got out of that courthouse with police everywhere, and you don't think that's a miracle? You don't think you're supposed to be sitting here right in front of me listening to me tell you, you know, your reason here?"

I said, "You know, your miracle could be that you need to -- you need to be caught for this. You need to go to prison and you need to share the word of God with them, with all the prisoners there.

^^Fruitcake, nutter, crazed idiot, ugly american, just plain old stupid... whatever aslong as we don't call her a hero.

Ok Ok, So GOD had this guy kill a few people so that the word of Christ will be spread in prison. Thank god for that... I'm sure the families of the victims are weeping with pleasure that those lives have been sacraficed to save the prisoners souls.

ShaniFaye · 03-15-2005, 03:14 PM

Ashley Smith is a hero...especially considering that the car wasnt moved far enuff away for the police to have arrived in any amount of time other than for them to have been back in her apartment with the weapons and she could have ended up like the other 4. OR if she'd taken off in the car after she told cops where they were, he would have just taken off again and hurt god knows whom else... I dont think self preservation=fruitcake

Im sure that had it been you, you would have handled it in such a way that "some" people might call you a hero.....and others probably wouldnt...its all relative.....

Hain · 03-15-2005, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.T. Promises

By cater to the convicted are you talking about the jail we provide them? or the food in said jail? should we jail the victim instead?

I assume you mean 'suspect' as opposed to 'convicted' and I assume you are talking about some problem you perceive with the court system... but what?

I mean that we bend over backwards to give the scum of this planet the benefit of the doubt, which they DO NOT deserve. We have come up with fanciful make-believe reasons why we can't be held accountable for our actions. Now a-days, anger is clinical goddamn excuse why I can get away with murder. No one is responsible for their actions. And I am sure when this low-life gets his day in court, all it will take is one bleeding heart juror to let this guy walk because he fell for the ludicrous "emotionally unstable" defense.

gshibly · 03-15-2005, 08:37 PM

This will become a problem I believe in the subject of woman in law enforcement. The officer in the court was a woman and she was outmuscled by this guy and got her gun jacked. Also another argument is that if there was no officer in the courtroom there would be no gun. I believe that enforcement within the courtroom is out of order.

M.T. Promises · 03-15-2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

I dont think self preservation=fruitcake

We know what happened... it worked out and she lived; but I still think picking that guy up was not a moment of self preservation, just misguided foolishness.

The icing on the fruitcake is really the god and miracle parts of the story. I admit, I am biased against people who are strong believers in god; just the like I am towards racists or ideologues. Really that's why I just called her an idiot; I just used the car example as solid proof of the fact... since any argument using god completely and utterly lacks that on either side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augi

I mean that we bend over backwards to give the scum of this planet the benefit of the doubt, which they DO NOT deserve. We have come up with fanciful make-believe reasons why we can't be held accountable for our actions. Now a-days, anger is clinical goddamn excuse why I can get away with murder. No one is responsible for their actions. And I am sure when this low-life gets his day in court, all it will take is one bleeding heart juror to let this guy walk because he fell for the ludicrous "emotionally unstable" defense.

Yes, because everyone who is arrested is guilty and no innocent person is ever convicted. Innocent until proven guilty is there to protect us citizens and it's done a fine job for 200+ years. A person deserves any defense they wish to make... there's the timeless Twinkie Defense, that guy still got convicted.

The system isn't perfect, but for the most part it does pretty well. Would you prefer we strung people up in the streets? Maybe the church should decide who lives and dies? a council of elders or the biggest man in the tribe? (at 6'4" 350pounds I like this one a lot myself

)

ShaniFaye · 03-16-2005, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.T. Promises

I just used the car example as solid proof of the fact... since any argument using god completely and utterly lacks that on either side.

uh huh.....well she's still alive....no one else got killed after he kidnapped her.....I'd say her faith in god makes a pretty good argument. Say what you want....I have great faith in god.....Im not sure I would have handled it the same way....but having never been in that position its impossible for ANYONE including you to know what you'd do. You can say all day long....well I would have done so and so.....but one thing life has taught me....you dont know until you actually have to do it.

03-11-2005, 09:47 AM	#3 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I've been watching this on the news, I was hoping to catch some of the Madrid 3/11 memorials, but alas, that little 30 second blurb it would have gotten is going to be even more buried over some stupid schlub. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-11-2005, 09:50 AM	#5 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	The judge that died was a very well known judge here in Atlanta __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

03-11-2005, 09:58 AM	#7 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	I'm givin' 10 to one odds that he doesn't get the chance to ever see the inside of another courtroom. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

03-11-2005, 10:03 AM	#8 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	I don't think it would be all that hard to grab a gun if he was desperate enough. I know around here, each courtroom has only one deputy in it to keep the peace. From what I've observed personally he usually stands off to the right of the judge, but he makes frequent trips back and forth down the aisle, usually to help someone out or monitor the hall outside (keep the noise down; call for witnesses). But if this guy's got a history of pulling stunts like this in the courtroom, I can't imagine why they didn't take extra precautions. From what I can see on television, they're going all out to catch this guy. I hope they grab him before he hurts anyone else. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

03-11-2005, 04:25 PM	#12 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	I'm not sure what to think so far. I'm waiting for ziadel to illuminate us all with his unique insight into the Southern court systems. Can't wait to see what he says about this one. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

03-11-2005, 09:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Does seem like a complete failure of courtroom security. Reminds me of the "Grand Theft Auto Kid" from the video game trial thread.

03-11-2005, 05:23 PM	#14 (permalink)
M.T. Promises Upright	It goes to show, any place civilians aren't allowed to carry firearms, neither should law enforcement. I'd view gun controls laws much more favorably if they applied to law enforcement and the government as well. I have family that are 'on the job' and not one has a a story (I've heard) about saving a person during the commission of a crime. They have some good stories mind you, 'specially the one that was TnT in NYC years back and they're good people... but I don't really see the need for them to be armed for 90% of their work. I'd bet $5 dollars right now that more cops are shot by police issued guns then privately owned. I think there is a solid misconception amongst many people that laws and police keep us safe. The reason why were safe is due to the simple fact that 99% of the population aren't killers/rapist or violent people with no regard for human life.

03-12-2005, 02:22 AM	#16 (permalink)
kitsune Guest	i feel bad for the people who were hurt and the girlfriend and all, but it's kind of neat to imagine someone on trial grabbing a gun and shooting the judge. i mean, he's really high up there and all by himself. but really, if the guy was tryign to get away, he had no reason to shoot the judge at all?

03-13-2005, 10:38 AM	#21 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Although we were out of town, we kept the tv in the cabin on CNN almost all weekend. It was kinda freaky when they got him...the apt complex he was at is less than 5 minutes from the house __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

03-13-2005, 04:44 PM	#22 (permalink)
Zyeox Psycho Location: Toledo, Ohio	You know this guy had to be freakin insane or something. The guy escapes from the woman taking him to court instead of leaving he goes to his courtroom and kills ppl. Why? Dude just leave I mean shit now you got 4 ppl that you killed and you wont ever see another day again. Plus the first trial ended in your favor. I admit the new one didnt look so good but you would at least get out in the next 10 years or so. Now you are up for the death penalty stupid ppl I just dont understand them.

03-14-2005, 04:32 AM	#24 (permalink)
fulltiltgonzo Upright	I think that once he decided to up the ante from rape to murder, he should have also chosen to go out in a blaze of glory, not waving a white flag. I mean...if you're so against going to jail that you shoot four people (killing three) why would you even consider giving yourself up? I'm not saying he needed to shoot it out with the cops, but he could have finished the deed by killing himself and saved the taxpayers the expense of a trial, incarceration, and ultimately execution... __________________ I venture to suggest that patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime. - Adlai Stevenson

03-14-2005, 07:02 AM	#25 (permalink)
animosity on fire Location: Atlanta, GA	edit oops... nvm. Last edited by animosity; 03-14-2005 at 08:31 AM.. Reason: I didnt read the thread of it's entirety

03-14-2005, 08:15 PM	#27 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	The guy is from Baltimore, and this has been all over the local news here. Apparently he wasn't a bad kid (according to reports) in school, but sometime after graduating he lost his way, and now this. Definately doing a lot for the reputation of his hometown At least he'll almost assuredly end up with a needle in his arm. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

03-14-2005, 08:59 PM	#29 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	That's crap. If someone disturbs or goes against the peace in a courtroom (violence..not yelling) they should not get the priveledge of having a trial, straight to maxium secuirty prison for them. Now that I think of it, courtrooms do have rather low security, Im surprised this doesnt happen more often.

03-15-2005, 11:50 AM	#32 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	If you heard any of the interviews she's done you'd know this was in no way a case of stockholm syndrome, the reason she didnt call the cops when they moved the truck is because she didnt want anyone else getting hurt including herself. She has stated many times that this man deserves to pay for what he did and she has no illusions about him whatsoever. Im curious as to why you call her a fruitcake? __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

03-15-2005, 03:14 PM	#34 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Ashley Smith is a hero...especially considering that the car wasnt moved far enuff away for the police to have arrived in any amount of time other than for them to have been back in her apartment with the weapons and she could have ended up like the other 4. OR if she'd taken off in the car after she told cops where they were, he would have just taken off again and hurt god knows whom else... I dont think self preservation=fruitcake Im sure that had it been you, you would have handled it in such a way that "some" people might call you a hero.....and others probably wouldnt...its all relative..... __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

03-15-2005, 08:37 PM	#36 (permalink)
gshibly Upright Location: Florida	This will become a problem I believe in the subject of woman in law enforcement. The officer in the court was a woman and she was outmuscled by this guy and got her gun jacked. Also another argument is that if there was no officer in the courtroom there would be no gun. I believe that enforcement within the courtroom is out of order.