Police shoot and kill 13-yr old boy - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

slant eyes · 02-22-2005, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Police Shoot, Kill 13-Year-Old Joyriding In Stolen Car
Police Chief Urges Community To 'Allow Process To Work'

UPDATED: 3:04 pm EST February 8, 2005

LOS ANGELES -- Friends and neighbors of a 13-year-old boy say they can't understand why Los Angeles police shot him to death early Sunday.

Police said Devin Brown was suspected of stealing a car and led police on a 3.5-mile chase. An officer reportedly fired 10 shots into the car when the Devon backed the vehicle into a patrol cruiser at the end of the brief chase.
Devin Brown
Devin Brown

Now, a makeshift memorial has been set up at the site where Devon, an 8th-grader at a magnet school for gifted children, was shot and killed. Police initially said Brown was a gang member but later said they could not confirm that.

The shooting sparked outrage among some community groups, and a prayer vigil and community meeting about Brown's death was called for Tuesday night.

Signs criticizing the police have gone up at an impromptu memorial at the scene of the shooting in South Los Angeles. One said, "You are a cancer to the community."

It was reported that the boy's father had died last year, and his mother had recently asked an older neighbor to help get the boy back on track.

"Oh yeah, it's sad," resident Cleo Pierce said. "It hurts me, too. I knew something (was) going to happen. When they start ... fooling around with gangs, I knew something had to happen to him."

Two officers involved in the shooting have been assigned to desk duty. Their union said officers have to make split-second decisions and any delay could cost them their lives.

The police officer who reportedly fired 10 rounds into the car, killing the unarmed teen, was identified as Steve Garcia, 31, who has been with the Los Angeles Police Department for nine years. The driver of the patrol car, six-year veteran Officer Dana Grant, 29, did not fire a weapon, police said.

In response to angry protests over Brown's shooting, Bratton urged the community to allow the process to work.

"We will not make a determination for a number of months," Bratton said. "And we have an extensive and elaborate process we have to go through."

Some South Los Angeles residents lashed out at police for Sunday's shooting.

"This happens far too often and far too easily in our neighborhood," resident Gene Conner said.

Yvonne Jones, assistant principal at the boy's school, Audobon Middle School, said a crisis team was on campus to help students and staff members cope with the news.

One of Devin's classmates said he always made her laugh, and she cried when she heard he had died.

"He was always nice to me," she said. "He never do nothing to me. I don't know, because he was just nice, period."

Patrol officers tried to stop the 1992 Toyota Camry about 3:50 a.m. Sunday when they saw the car moving erratically near Century Boulevard and Grand Avenue and believed the driver was drunk, said LAPD Officer Kristi Sandoval of the Media Relations Office.

"The suspect collided with a fence, the officers were behind him, attempted to make a traffic stop, and at that point an officer involved shooting occurred," LAPD Assistant Chief Jim McDonnell said.

Police said the driver ignored orders to surrender and backed the car into a police cruiser.

"Officers were giving the driver commands over and over again, but he ignored them," Sandoval said.

The driver put the car into reverse and struck a patrol car, she said, prompting the shooting.

A 14-year-old boy who was also in the car tried to run away but was caught, Sandoval said. His name was not released.

A man who said he saw the events unfold from his kitchen window said it looked like the driver "might have backed it up and hit the police car," then "all of a sudden ... pow, pow, pow."

Police backed off initial reports that the boys were gang members, and LAPD Deputy Chief Michael Berkow told The Los Angeles Times the suspect was unarmed.

The Times noted that the shooting occurred about a year after LAPD officers killed another fleeing motorist who backed his car toward police at the end of a televised, 90-minute chase near Santa Monica High School.

That shooting prompted Bratton to announce last March that the department should create new rules on when officers can shoot at moving vehicles.

Bratton said such a policy should prohibit officers from shooting "unless the officer or other person are threatened by deadly force, other than the moving vehicle," according to The Times.

A proposal has been formulated but has not been considered by the Police Commission yet. The commission's president, David Cunningham, told The Times the new regulation will probably be considered within the next month.

McDonnell told The Times the proposal would make exceptions for officers whose lives were threatened by a suspect's car.

full story

i heard on the radio today that the family was going to file lawsuit against the city of LA. the attorney sounded pissed and stated 'we've seen the diagrams of the policy and we fail to see what was wrong' or something to that effect.

from the article and what i've heard on the radio, it seems the 13-yr old boy stole a car, went crusing with it at like 3:50 am with a buddy, was ordered to stop, backed the car into a police cruiser, then was shot and killed. if i'm missing anything or misinterpreted any part of this, please feel free to correct me. and if the mod's feel this is inappropriate, delete at will and accept my apology.

so before i voice my opinion, i want to hear if i got most of the story right so as to not sound like an ignorant fool.

Jesus Pimp · 02-23-2005, 03:28 AM

The dumb kid should not have stolen the car and the cops the overreacted. Case closed.

Irishsean · 02-23-2005, 03:32 AM

I don't think the cops over-reacted at all. If someone runs a car at me, I'm sure as hell gonna shoot at them. A car is a deadly weapon.

Phage · 02-23-2005, 05:05 AM

Bratton said such a policy should prohibit officers from shooting "unless the officer or other person are threatened by deadly force, other than the moving vehicle," according to The Times.

This is stupid. Someone could take a car into a preschool and start doing donuts, and the police would not really have any good way of stopping it. The police should be able to use deadly force whenever it looks like people's lives are in danger, no matter the method.

Destrox · 02-23-2005, 05:54 AM

I too see nothing wrong with what happened here. It doent matter the age of the person, heck kids today at 13 want to be treated as adults may as well let them have the full dish.

OPgary · 02-23-2005, 06:30 AM

The kid was committing a felony, attacked the officers with the car, and the shooting comes as a surprise? The kid should have thought of it before he stole the car. our child-centric country is going way overboard doting on these kids.

raeanna74 · 02-23-2005, 06:46 AM

I think after seeing car chases ending up in the criminal getting shot I would definately think twice about running from police let alone backing the car into a patrol vehicle.

He was in a school for gifted children?? Just goes to show you that all the intelligence in the world won't cover for a lack of common sense.

Why is the mother sueing the city instead of having been out hunting down her deliquent child at 3am?? He was 13 - I promise you - my daughter better not think about being out that late when she's that age or she'll be grounded for months or MORE.

Sad - the whole thing is a sad, sad story.

the_marq · 02-23-2005, 06:47 AM

Wow, I am surprised by the first 5 responses in this thread.

When I was reading the artcile I expected a chorus of "cops suck" and "I would have just talked to the boy." Once again I am surprised and impressed by the attitudes of my fellow TFP'ers.

I too support the police in this action, if someone is ramming a car into my car, I don't care who it is.... I'm going to shoot them. Actually I feel very sorry for the cops involved in this shooting, even if they are found to be in the right in the case of this shooting they (he) are still going to be saddled with the guilt if having shot and killed a kid.

Sad situation all around.

thatoneguy · 02-23-2005, 06:48 AM

Wow, I don't see how the cops were wrong in this case... It's a shame that it happened how it did, but they did what they had to do to protect themselves and anyone else this kid might have gone after with the car. If someone tried to run an average person down with a car, everyone would blame the driver, not the other person for trying to stop him. Police have to be able to do their jobs without worrying about a lawsuit every time they do ANYTHING. I'm really sick and tired of people suing for everything that ever goes wrong or that they don't like. Like I said, it's a shame that they had to shoot, but they were defending themselves.

Bill O'Rights · 02-23-2005, 06:57 AM

Ordinarily, I would be the first to champion the police. Dumbass little gangbanger(?) steals a car, refuses to follow police intructions, backs into a police cruiser, and fully expects to be hailed as a hero back in the 'hood. Then, the community gets in an uproar when the little criminal comes to a "bad end". Sorry. I don't care how many girls that he made laugh in school. I don't care how many honors programs he was in. Reap what you sow anyone?
However...10 rounds? As a former cop, I've got a huge problem with that. The degree of force used to subdue the suspect was way in excess of the level of threat exhibited. Had the little gangbanger pulled a weapon and fired on the officer...then I'd have absolutely no problem at all with 10 rounds being inserted into his useless body. But this? This smells like yesterdays dirty diapers. I do believe that we have identified a cop that needs to be removed from the public, if not society.

retsuki03 · 02-23-2005, 06:58 AM

If I put myself in the cops position, I would have done the same thing.

I feel bad for the kid, but he brought it upon himself. The kid's parents are what pisses me off. It's not like cops are out trying to find excuses to shoot 13-years old kids. It was a split-second decision and he acted on instincts of self-preservation.

jwoody · 02-23-2005, 06:59 AM

I'm saddened to read that so many of you support on-the-spot death penalty as punishment for reversing into a police car.

What's wrong with following the stolen car until some back-up arrives so it can be boxed in or rammed off the road?

retsuki03 · 02-23-2005, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

However...10 rounds? As a former cop, I've got a huge problem with that. The degree of force used to subdue the suspect was way in excess of the level of threat exhibited. Had the little gangbanger pulled a weapon and fired on the officer...then I'd have absolutely no problem at all with 10 rounds being inserted into his useless body. But this? This smells like yesterdays dirty diapers. I do believe that we have identified a cop that needs to be removed from the public, if not society.

I thought it was 10 rounds into the car with many probably missing the boy. Not 10 rounds in the kid.

FatherTed · 02-23-2005, 07:03 AM

Really depends if other lives were in immediate danger IMHO.
If they were, then there is a situation where it could be justified.
If they wern't, and only property was likely to be damaged, then it is hugely out of line.

Sad story, anyway you look at it, though

drakers · 02-23-2005, 07:20 AM

Sounds to me the police overreacted. There in a freakin police car, putting a car in reverse to hit their car is NOT going to endanger their lives (they're in the car). There is no reason why they needed to shot the car, aim for the tires or something but jesus they shot the kid to death for that. Give me a break.

cyrnel · 02-23-2005, 07:31 AM

Yep, without big assumptions there's no way to know from the details if it was justified. It isn't going to help the officer's case that his partner didn't fire a single round.

wnker85 · 02-23-2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakers

Sounds to me the police overreacted. There in a freakin police car, putting a car in reverse to hit their car is NOT going to endanger their lives (they're in the car). There is no reason why they needed to shot the car, aim for the tires or something but jesus they shot the kid to death for that. Give me a break.

Wasn't one of the officers outside of the car.

And when a cop is yelling at you from outside of a car he is usally behind you. So, How can you fault him because I would empty a clip as well at a car coming towards me. Because you probably won't hit the driver, and that should scare the driver from doing anything else.

Sucks for everyone here. Seems the kid had a real good chance to get out and make a good life for himself and then he went and did something llike this. It's just sad.

canuckguy · 02-23-2005, 08:20 AM

After reading the story and the responses I would have to agree that I don't see anything wrong with shooting the kid. It is sad that the kid died and will not have a chance to turn his life around, do the crime, gotta take the punishment.
In tornoto in the summer there was a kid around 17 I think that was in a gang fight and was holding a knife, the cops busted the fight up and the kid made a move toward the cops, the cops told him to drop the knife, another move, bang kid is dead. now that might not be all the details of my foggy memory but its the same sorta thing. cop asks you to drop the knife you better drop the knife or.......
oh and with the kid, his family i think sued for some racisim thing as the cop was white. stupid. family said he was a good kid....a good kid that gets into gang fights with knifes...lovely.

kutulu · 02-23-2005, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakers

Sounds to me the police overreacted. There in a freakin police car, putting a car in reverse to hit their car is NOT going to endanger their lives (they're in the car). There is no reason why they needed to shot the car, aim for the tires or something but jesus they shot the kid to death for that. Give me a break.

You never know when reversing into another car might cause it to spontaneously explode!

I'm not surprised that people are supporting the cops, this always happens. An untrained cop overreacts and nobody wants to assign any slight amount of blame on the cops.

f6twister · 02-23-2005, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwoody

What's wrong with following the stolen car until some back-up arrives so it can be boxed in or rammed off the road?

This is usually what happens but in some cases, this being one of them, that wasn't an option:

Quote:

"The suspect collided with a fence, the officers were behind him, attempted to make a traffic stop, and at that point an officer involved shooting occurred," LAPD Assistant Chief Jim McDonnell said.

Basically, the kid ran off the road into a fence, it was either give up or back up and by that time, the squad had already stopped behind the vehicle in an attempt to block it in. The kid obviously wasn't thinking about giving up so he went with option #2. In this case, the cops had to act before waiting for back up.

jwoody · 02-23-2005, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f6twister

This is usually what happens but in some cases, this being one of them, that wasn't an option:

Coming from a country where very few police officers carry weapons and shooting the child would never be an option, I just think it seems a bit drastic.

Bill O'Rights · 02-23-2005, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

I'm not surprised that people are supporting the cops, this always happens. An untrained cop overreacts and nobody wants to assign any slight amount of blame on the cops.

Quote:

The police officer who reportedly fired 10 rounds into the car, killing the unarmed teen, was identified as Steve Garcia, 31, who has been with the Los Angeles Police Department for nine years.

So...after nine years on the LAPD, when do you suppose his training was to commence?

Phage · 02-23-2005, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakers

Sounds to me the police overreacted. There in a freakin police car, putting a car in reverse to hit their car is NOT going to endanger their lives (they're in the car). There is no reason why they needed to shot the car, aim for the tires or something but jesus they shot the kid to death for that. Give me a break.

First of all, they might not have been in their car at the time. Secondly, if he has already shown himself willing to run down police officers how do you think he will react to pedestrians? They needed to stop him right then.

As for the shooting, a lot of people seem to have been watching way too much TV. There are rules about when and how you should shoot.

1) If you decide to fire your gun you have a good reason; shoot at the target, not tires or their weapons. The police are not the Waco Kid. Bullets flying around are bad news, so shoot at something you know will stop the situation instantly.

2) If you have already decided to shoot, do so until you have accomplished your goal. A "shoot and check" attitude will get you killed. 10 rounds can go off very quickly, and I am certain many of them did not hit the kid.

Arc101 · 02-23-2005, 09:38 AM

I'm not a big fan of the police, but in this case I support them. How were the cops to know this was a 13 year old kid, he could have been any age and off his head on drugs. If you are committing a crime which could endanger the life’s of others, and you refuse to stop when the police have caught you then, unfortunately the consequences could be losing you life.

nowthen · 02-23-2005, 09:47 AM

if you choose to be a criminal, you should know the law of your country or state and except the penalties when you break those laws. and also, Phage is spot on. shooting out tyres or such other nonsense is exactly that, nonsense. you use a car as a potentially lethal weapon, expect to get lethal resonse. if he didnt steal a car, and didnt try to ram the police, he would never have been in harms way.

dksuddeth · 02-23-2005, 09:49 AM

when you commit a criminal act, you should be held totally responsible for anything that is a direct or indirect result of that criminal action. The kid STOLE a car and then RAN from the police and then HIT a patrol car. sorry the kids dead but its his fault.

Vincentt · 02-23-2005, 09:53 AM

Police risk their lives everyday, this kid was breaking the law and attempting to drive over an officer (if not, then what was he doing backing into the car?)

They didn't know what was in the car, only that it was a danger to everyone.

It is a sad thing, but what was he doing out so late stealing cars anyway?

There are some people who instantly hate the police. They have issues with authority, maybe because they are always on the wrong side of the law.

Antikarma · 02-23-2005, 10:49 AM

Count me as a vote with the cops. A vehicle is a deadly weapon, and they had reason to fear for not only their own lives, but the lives of any pedestrians.

Coppertop · 02-23-2005, 10:58 AM

I see no problem with the police action. A car is a deadly weapon. The kid used the car as such when he rammed the cruiser. Had the kid surrendered when he hit the fence he'd likely be alive right now.

It was an unfortunate situation all around.

KMA-628 · 02-23-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

However...10 rounds? As a former cop, I've got a huge problem with that.

As a former cop, you should know that isn't uncommon.

Most of the guys don't even know how many rounds they fire. They usually say 2-3 rounds and it turns out to be at least twice that many.

Ever since the switch over to high-cap magazines, this has become increasingly more common--especially when you are running on adrenaline.

In the old days, they would empty their chamber firing all six rounds--not smart--but many do. Now, with 15 and 16 round magazines, a lot of these guys keep firing until they hear "click". The only problem I have is that after the first round, their accuracy goes in the toilet. I'd didn't catch it, but I would bet the kid got hit one or two times out of the ten rounds fired.

Now that I am typing this, I am kinda changing my opinion. Control isn't taught like it used to be in the old days of the acadamy. It sounds like these guys need to train more at "Hogan's Alley"--do they even use training aids like that anymore?

/still a justified shooting

Carno · 02-23-2005, 01:45 PM

I don't think the car backed into the police car at 90 miles an hour, so I hardly think the police officer's lives were in danger. I have seen many an episode of "America's Wildest Police Chases" and the officers did not unload ten rounds into a car each time a police car was struck. I think the cop should be canned. I wouldn't want his trigger happy ass patrolling my neighborhood.

Antikarma · 02-23-2005, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

I have seen many an episode of "America's Wildest Police Chases" and the officers did not unload ten rounds into a car each time a police car was struck.

Oh yeah? Well I watched many an episode of Law and Order so I happen to know that thats slander. And don't even THINK about getting rude with me man, I've watched Bruce Lee and know how to unload, man. Kung FU style, if you know what I mean.

drakers · 02-23-2005, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMA-628

As a former cop, you should know that isn't uncommon.

Most of the guys don't even know how many rounds they fire. They usually say 2-3 rounds and it turns out to be at least twice that many.

Ever since the switch over to high-cap magazines, this has become increasingly more common--especially when you are running on adrenaline.

In the old days, they would empty their chamber firing all six rounds--not smart--but many do. Now, with 15 and 16 round magazines, a lot of these guys keep firing until they hear "click". The only problem I have is that after the first round, their accuracy goes in the toilet. I'd didn't catch it, but I would bet the kid got hit one or two times out of the ten rounds fired.

Now that I am typing this, I am kinda changing my opinion. Control isn't taught like it used to be in the old days of the acadamy. It sounds like these guys need to train more at "Hogan's Alley"--do they even use training aids like that anymore?

/still a justified shooting

It is kinda soon to assume the shooting was justified when all the facts have not come out. It takes a little longer than a day to make a case, usually it takes about a few weeks before they can determiine justification. I know what I said earlier says that I'm completely against the cops, but if one of them were outside the car or their was a pedestrian near by, I might understand the shooting. Maybe not the 10 rounds (unless it was a life or death situation). But they still need to interview witnesses and get all sides of the story. I wouldn't pin an opinion on one news report.

KMA-628 · 02-23-2005, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakers

It is kinda soon to assume the shooting was justified when all the facts have not come out. It takes a little longer than a day to make a case, usually it takes about a few weeks before they can determiine justification. I know what I said earlier says that I'm completely against the cops, but if one of them were outside the car or their was a pedestrian near by, I might understand the shooting. Maybe not the 10 rounds (unless it was a life or death situation). But they still need to interview witnesses and get all sides of the story. I wouldn't pin an opinion on one news report.

It has been much longer than a day, this happened 2/6/05--there have been many, many stories about it.

The kid backed up about 20 ft to hit the patrol car. At night, in a bad neighborhood, this could be construed as intent, especially since they didn't know anything about the driver, the car is only listed as stolen at this point.

Backing up 20 feet to hit me tells me you are doing it on purpose. Now, after the fact, we know it was a kid who probably had no control of the car. The officer in this case, couldn't have known it so most likely took the event as an attempt to hurt him or his partner.

Now, the next thing is key for me.

After backing up 20 or so feet to hit the patrol car, the car moves more and hits the back of the patrol car as well.

Here is where I probably would have fired as well....

The kid pulls up virtually side-by-side with the patrol car.

With 20/20 hindsight, we now that the kid probably had no control of the car, was panicking and didn't want to hurt anybody.

For the cop, in a bad neighborhood, at night, being hit twice by this car....then the car pulls up along side....he probably felt that the guy was lining up for a shot. Most people would have stopped after hitting the patrol car once, if it is an accident.

The kid didn't stop though, he kept going. If I was the cop, I would think that something crazy is going on, that this situation is going from bad to worse very fast and then begin to take steps to protect myself.

I've been in patrol cars in this area, you are a friggin' target.

That is why I think it is justified....not because of the story linked on the first post.

Lebell · 02-23-2005, 03:07 PM

Two words: Good shoot.

jorgelito · 02-23-2005, 05:48 PM

YOu know Randy Moss hit a cop with his car and got off scott-free. That's messed up too. So it's not a "race" thing.

Moobie · 02-23-2005, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Ordinarily, I would be the first to champion the police. Dumbass little gangbanger(?) steals a car, refuses to follow police intructions, backs into a police cruiser, and fully expects to be hailed as a hero back in the 'hood. Then, the community gets in an uproar when the little criminal comes to a "bad end". Sorry. I don't care how many girls that he made laugh in school. I don't care how many honors programs he was in. Reap what you sow anyone?
However...10 rounds? As a former cop, I've got a huge problem with that. The degree of force used to subdue the suspect was way in excess of the level of threat exhibited. Had the little gangbanger pulled a weapon and fired on the officer...then I'd have absolutely no problem at all with 10 rounds being inserted into his useless body. But this? This smells like yesterdays dirty diapers. I do believe that we have identified a cop that needs to be removed from the public, if not society.

I agree. We are talking about a CHILD here...

pinkie · 02-23-2005, 06:02 PM

oops... That last post was me. I was on Moobie's computer.

yellowchef · 02-23-2005, 07:00 PM

I agree that 10 rounds is VERY DRASTIC, however I don't disagree with the principle. It was 3-4 am, they didnt know anything about the driver, the driver chose to back the car into the patrol car, and cars are a deadly weapon. He didnt deserve to die, but he definately put on some big shoes that morning. No matter how good your kid is in school it doesnt make up for the fact that they can still be a bad kid. I also agree that this officer needs to be removed from the force and severely punnished for his actions. A round or 2 into the car was probably more than enough to scare the shit out of the kid, had he made a second attempt to ram the car into the police cruiser, or ran off again that would warrant further action, but if he had come to a stop, theres no need for more.

rainheart · 02-23-2005, 07:07 PM

Do you guys get the feeling that the entire news article posted was anti-cop?

"Police kill and shoot 13 year old boy"

Kind of seemed like it was presented in a way to construe the police as having knowingly killed a 13 year old boy.

My opinion on wether the shooting was justified?
I don't know... I would say no at first glance but I don't really have a solid opinion since I don't know what happened.

10 rounds ARE quite a bit ...

02-23-2005, 03:28 AM	#2 (permalink)
Jesus Pimp The Original JizzSmacka	The dumb kid should not have stolen the car and the cops the overreacted. Case closed. __________________ Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

02-23-2005, 03:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
Irishsean edited for content Location: Austin, TX	I don't think the cops over-reacted at all. If someone runs a car at me, I'm sure as hell gonna shoot at them. A car is a deadly weapon. __________________ There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances. Leon Trotsky

02-23-2005, 05:54 AM	#5 (permalink)
Destrox Metal and Rock 4 Life Location: Phoenix	I too see nothing wrong with what happened here. It doent matter the age of the person, heck kids today at 13 want to be treated as adults may as well let them have the full dish. __________________ You bore me.... next.

02-23-2005, 06:46 AM	#7 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I think after seeing car chases ending up in the criminal getting shot I would definately think twice about running from police let alone backing the car into a patrol vehicle. He was in a school for gifted children?? Just goes to show you that all the intelligence in the world won't cover for a lack of common sense. Why is the mother sueing the city instead of having been out hunting down her deliquent child at 3am?? He was 13 - I promise you - my daughter better not think about being out that late when she's that age or she'll be grounded for months or MORE. Sad - the whole thing is a sad, sad story. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

02-23-2005, 06:47 AM	#8 (permalink)
the_marq All hail the Mountain King Location: Black Mesa	Wow, I am surprised by the first 5 responses in this thread. When I was reading the artcile I expected a chorus of "cops suck" and "I would have just talked to the boy." Once again I am surprised and impressed by the attitudes of my fellow TFP'ers. I too support the police in this action, if someone is ramming a car into my car, I don't care who it is.... I'm going to shoot them. Actually I feel very sorry for the cops involved in this shooting, even if they are found to be in the right in the case of this shooting they (he) are still going to be saddled with the guilt if having shot and killed a kid. Sad situation all around. __________________ The Truth: Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to. #3 in a series

02-23-2005, 05:05 AM	#4 (permalink)
Phage Insane	Bratton said such a policy should prohibit officers from shooting "unless the officer or other person are threatened by deadly force, other than the moving vehicle," according to The Times. This is stupid. Someone could take a car into a preschool and start doing donuts, and the police would not really have any good way of stopping it. The police should be able to use deadly force whenever it looks like people's lives are in danger, no matter the method.

02-23-2005, 06:30 AM	#6 (permalink)
OPgary Tilted	The kid was committing a felony, attacked the officers with the car, and the shooting comes as a surprise? The kid should have thought of it before he stole the car. our child-centric country is going way overboard doting on these kids.

02-23-2005, 06:48 AM	#9 (permalink)
thatoneguy Crazy Location: Omaha, NE	Wow, I don't see how the cops were wrong in this case... It's a shame that it happened how it did, but they did what they had to do to protect themselves and anyone else this kid might have gone after with the car. If someone tried to run an average person down with a car, everyone would blame the driver, not the other person for trying to stop him. Police have to be able to do their jobs without worrying about a lawsuit every time they do ANYTHING. I'm really sick and tired of people suing for everything that ever goes wrong or that they don't like. Like I said, it's a shame that they had to shoot, but they were defending themselves.

02-23-2005, 06:57 AM	#10 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Ordinarily, I would be the first to champion the police. Dumbass little gangbanger(?) steals a car, refuses to follow police intructions, backs into a police cruiser, and fully expects to be hailed as a hero back in the 'hood. Then, the community gets in an uproar when the little criminal comes to a "bad end". Sorry. I don't care how many girls that he made laugh in school. I don't care how many honors programs he was in. Reap what you sow anyone? However...10 rounds? As a former cop, I've got a huge problem with that. The degree of force used to subdue the suspect was way in excess of the level of threat exhibited. Had the little gangbanger pulled a weapon and fired on the officer...then I'd have absolutely no problem at all with 10 rounds being inserted into his useless body. But this? This smells like yesterdays dirty diapers. I do believe that we have identified a cop that needs to be removed from the public, if not society. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

02-23-2005, 06:58 AM	#11 (permalink)
retsuki03 Crazy Location: Austin, TX	If I put myself in the cops position, I would have done the same thing. I feel bad for the kid, but he brought it upon himself. The kid's parents are what pisses me off. It's not like cops are out trying to find excuses to shoot 13-years old kids. It was a split-second decision and he acted on instincts of self-preservation.

02-23-2005, 06:59 AM	#12 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	I'm saddened to read that so many of you support on-the-spot death penalty as punishment for reversing into a police car. What's wrong with following the stolen car until some back-up arrives so it can be boxed in or rammed off the road?

02-23-2005, 07:03 AM	#14 (permalink)
FatherTed Crazy Location: Ireland	Really depends if other lives were in immediate danger IMHO. If they were, then there is a situation where it could be justified. If they wern't, and only property was likely to be damaged, then it is hugely out of line. Sad story, anyway you look at it, though __________________ Food, fun and frolicking - that's all I need

02-23-2005, 07:20 AM	#15 (permalink)
drakers Psycho Location: IOWA	Sounds to me the police overreacted. There in a freakin police car, putting a car in reverse to hit their car is NOT going to endanger their lives (they're in the car). There is no reason why they needed to shot the car, aim for the tires or something but jesus they shot the kid to death for that. Give me a break. __________________ Friends don't shake hands, friends 'gotta HUG!

02-23-2005, 07:31 AM	#16 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Yep, without big assumptions there's no way to know from the details if it was justified. It isn't going to help the officer's case that his partner didn't fire a single round.

02-23-2005, 08:20 AM	#18 (permalink)
canuckguy I read your emails. Location: earth	After reading the story and the responses I would have to agree that I don't see anything wrong with shooting the kid. It is sad that the kid died and will not have a chance to turn his life around, do the crime, gotta take the punishment. In tornoto in the summer there was a kid around 17 I think that was in a gang fight and was holding a knife, the cops busted the fight up and the kid made a move toward the cops, the cops told him to drop the knife, another move, bang kid is dead. now that might not be all the details of my foggy memory but its the same sorta thing. cop asks you to drop the knife you better drop the knife or....... oh and with the kid, his family i think sued for some racisim thing as the cop was white. stupid. family said he was a good kid....a good kid that gets into gang fights with knifes...lovely.

02-23-2005, 09:38 AM	#24 (permalink)
Arc101 Addict Location: Nottingham, England	I'm not a big fan of the police, but in this case I support them. How were the cops to know this was a 13 year old kid, he could have been any age and off his head on drugs. If you are committing a crime which could endanger the life’s of others, and you refuse to stop when the police have caught you then, unfortunately the consequences could be losing you life.

02-23-2005, 09:47 AM	#25 (permalink)
nowthen Insane Location: Republic of Panama	if you choose to be a criminal, you should know the law of your country or state and except the penalties when you break those laws. and also, Phage is spot on. shooting out tyres or such other nonsense is exactly that, nonsense. you use a car as a potentially lethal weapon, expect to get lethal resonse. if he didnt steal a car, and didnt try to ram the police, he would never have been in harms way. __________________ "People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them." George Bernard Shaw

02-23-2005, 09:49 AM	#26 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	when you commit a criminal act, you should be held totally responsible for anything that is a direct or indirect result of that criminal action. The kid STOLE a car and then RAN from the police and then HIT a patrol car. sorry the kids dead but its his fault. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

02-23-2005, 09:53 AM	#27 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	Police risk their lives everyday, this kid was breaking the law and attempting to drive over an officer (if not, then what was he doing backing into the car?) They didn't know what was in the car, only that it was a danger to everyone. It is a sad thing, but what was he doing out so late stealing cars anyway? There are some people who instantly hate the police. They have issues with authority, maybe because they are always on the wrong side of the law. __________________ .

02-23-2005, 10:49 AM	#28 (permalink)
Antikarma Psycho Location: Yellowknife, NWT	Count me as a vote with the cops. A vehicle is a deadly weapon, and they had reason to fear for not only their own lives, but the lives of any pedestrians. __________________ "Whoever you are, go out into the evening, leaving your room, of which you know each bit; your house is the last before the infinite, whoever you are."

02-23-2005, 10:58 AM	#29 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	I see no problem with the police action. A car is a deadly weapon. The kid used the car as such when he rammed the cruiser. Had the kid surrendered when he hit the fence he'd likely be alive right now. It was an unfortunate situation all around.

02-23-2005, 01:45 PM	#31 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	I don't think the car backed into the police car at 90 miles an hour, so I hardly think the police officer's lives were in danger. I have seen many an episode of "America's Wildest Police Chases" and the officers did not unload ten rounds into a car each time a police car was struck. I think the cop should be canned. I wouldn't want his trigger happy ass patrolling my neighborhood.

02-23-2005, 03:07 PM	#35 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Two words: Good shoot. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

02-23-2005, 05:48 PM	#36 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	YOu know Randy Moss hit a cop with his car and got off scott-free. That's messed up too. So it's not a "race" thing.

02-23-2005, 06:02 PM	#38 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	oops... That last post was me. I was on Moobie's computer.

02-23-2005, 07:00 PM	#39 (permalink)
yellowchef Addict Location: Shalimar, FL	I agree that 10 rounds is VERY DRASTIC, however I don't disagree with the principle. It was 3-4 am, they didnt know anything about the driver, the driver chose to back the car into the patrol car, and cars are a deadly weapon. He didnt deserve to die, but he definately put on some big shoes that morning. No matter how good your kid is in school it doesnt make up for the fact that they can still be a bad kid. I also agree that this officer needs to be removed from the force and severely punnished for his actions. A round or 2 into the car was probably more than enough to scare the shit out of the kid, had he made a second attempt to ram the car into the police cruiser, or ran off again that would warrant further action, but if he had come to a stop, theres no need for more.

02-23-2005, 07:07 PM	#40 (permalink)
rainheart Psycho	Do you guys get the feeling that the entire news article posted was anti-cop? "Police kill and shoot 13 year old boy" Kind of seemed like it was presented in a way to construe the police as having knowingly killed a 13 year old boy. My opinion on wether the shooting was justified? I don't know... I would say no at first glance but I don't really have a solid opinion since I don't know what happened. 10 rounds ARE quite a bit ...