alicat

Sorry that this is going to be long. I realize smoking sucks. It's bad for me and that's about it, because I don't smoke indoors so as not to expose others to my habit. That said, it's proven scientifically that nicotine is addictive. I and my hubby are very addicted. We have tried many routes to quit that did not work (I'm sure all of you are familar with the most common ones, the patch, gum, blah blah). We both want to quit in the immediate future for both of our health. Being two loving people in a great relationship for many years, only the lack of nicotine has threatened our harmony the times we've simultainiously tried to quit smoking.

About 3 1/2 yrs. ago, hubby was permanently laid off from his best paying job to that date (somewhere between upper lower-class and lower-middle-class). At that point in time we tried to quit smoking and it didn't work. Michigan has got one of the most outrageous tabacco taxes in the country. We (as smokers) watched year after year the taxes jump .50 cents at a time on a pack (due in no small part to our senator Granholm). Hubby and I tried and couldn't quit. Living off of unemployment and trying to keep a roof over your head, meaning stress, can make that hard to do. If you've never been addicted to cigarettes (or are one of the lucky ones who can quit on a dime) then you won't understand our situation.

Someone told us that there were companies that sold cheap as smokes on-line as well as name brands. So we searched and found an internet site (in Kentucky) that had imported cigarettes for around $10 a carton. We were used to smoking Marlboro's but figured in our situation we couldn't be picky, so we ordered the cheap smokes. This site said that, legally, they couldn't ship cigarettes to 2 states (not ours), and asked customers to petition the government for them to be able to. We bought from that site for nearly 3 1/2 yrs..

A couple of weeks ago, I logged onto their site to order and lo-and-behold, Michigan had been added to their (current) list of about 8 states they now can't ship to. So I did a Google search and clicked on one of the first few hits and orderd the same brand we smoke from them (they're in N.Y., one of the first states the other site couldn't ship to). Their site didn't say squat about being prohibited from shipping to any states. We assumed that these sites are legit (they're right there for anyone to immediately find) and everything was above-board.

Now suddenly this:

(Allegan County, February 15, 2005, 6:41 p.m.) When the cigarette tax went up last year, the state expected more smokers to seek out "tax-free" cigarettes. But as 24 Hour News 8 found out, the authorities still want their money, even if you buy the cigarettes on the Internet.
This past weekend, Ronald Krywosinski received a bill from the state saying he owes money on tax-free cigarettes he bought on the Internet. "I didn't even know they had a law past. I didn't see it on TV. I never got a letter from nobody...this is just…bam," he said.

And it's not just the unpaid taxes the state wants, but interest on that money as well.

The total bill for 168 cartons over a three-year period comes to $2,344.14 and is due in 30 days.

"They go to the Internet and get tobacco sales. Tomorrow, it could be e-bay," says Krywosinski.

Maybe not that soon. Unlike any other product that can be sold across state lines, the states have enforcement leverage when it comes to tobacco. It is a federal law called the Jenkins Act.

Basically, it requires the seller of tobacco, in this case a company called eSmokes.com, to take all those customers who bought tax-free cigarettes and turn them into authorities. That is probably how Krywosinski got caught. But he says he was duped. "The Web site always put up a letter up that they were fighting that, but it had not been passed."

Unlucky for him, that Web site makes the Jenkins Act very clear.

But, even if the seller didn't make it clear, the state treasury department says the buyer is still responsible.

Krywosinski is so mad he wants to move his trucking business out of Michigan to a place where registrations are cheaper.

Even more dramatic, he's thinking about not paying the tax at all.

"I'm thinking about taking my prison time," he said.

At the very least, he says he will try to kick his habit.

Last year, Michigan collected nearly $993 million in cigarette taxes. It is not clear what percentage of that money was collected under the Jenkins Act.

As for out-of-state purchases on other items, you're supposed to pay sales tax. But, that's based upon the honor system.

Right now, the only way the state could find out about those purchases is through an individual audit.


My hubby and I live paycheck to paycheck, that's the reason we started buying crappy smokes made in Peru in the first place. If the state socked us with a $2000.00 bill (that's conservative, we bought smokes for 6 mths. longer and for two people), we might literally have to file bankrupcy as we don't even have a dime in savings. I have a personal stake in this, but still, a few things seem wrong besides: 1) The online retailers are supposed to report their customers to the government (making them the first one's responsible and nipping the problem (and taxes) in the bud). 2) Taxes on any other item bought online are on the honor system (hello, witch hunt anybody?!). 3) $993 Million Did I just say "witch hunt"? I knew the taxes were high but, holy christ, I can't even fathom a state raking that much in from one "segment" of the population. Imagine if liquor taxes were on a par with that in any state, revolution!

I had no clue that these sites were illegal (if indeed they are), we would have checked ourselves into a program, if they exist, rather than break the law by buying from them. I don't know if we'll be hunted down and fined but I am royally pissed off.

Yes, I know, and agree, smoking is a nasty habit. I appreciate any response that isin't of the "tsk tsk, why do you smoke?" variety. Your thoughts please.

Ali

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Mojo_PeiPei

God bless you smokers, you keep the various state's budget's balanced as intended by the taxes, oh wait...

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ngdawg

We also buy them online-single packs go for up to over $6 in NJ. The outfit we buy them from has a return address that says it's a sporting goods store and they arrive UPS.
Another way to get around these dumb laws is to have someone you know from a cheaper state send them to you-we've done that as well.
I understand we are pariahs of society, I understand we pay for the habit in many ways, including taxes. But with so many other things taking from the tax tills and clueless politicians talking about ridiculous ways to either save money or earn more, one would think they would leave the penny-ante shit alone for a bit and concentrate on more important issues.
Case in point: NJ acting governor Codey is talking about lowering the property tax rebate to save the state money. Ever occur to this guy or anyone else in Trenton to just DO AWAY with it and reduce property taxes? No check but a reduction would give us back $50 a month-enough for 2 cartons online.
A woman in NY was recently sued by the state for back taxes on the smokes she purchased online-if they don't want people to buy them that way-go after the companies that sell them, including indian reservation stores. Oh wait, too easy......

flstf

I don't know the law so please check into this before taking any action. I was told by an on line seller from an Indian Reservation that they would never give records of their sales to the states and they could not be forced to due to various treaties. I now live in Ohio where cigarettes are about half the cost of the state I last lived in so I just buy them in stores here. You might want to check it out and consider buying from a reservation store.

Tarapin

I recently lived for six months in a place that had exactly this situation (indians sellin)...Fort Lauderdale

They don't fall under the act you're talkin about because they aren't required to collect taxes for the US Government because they are selling from within their reservation, technically a part of the (insert indian name here) nation. It is the same type of thing that makes an embassy on US soil actually a part of the parent country (or vise-versa).

As an example. Your average citizen can stand on the street in front of the (insert country name here) embassy, take a gun, and shoot somebody in the head. If they make it to the embassy property before the cops get em, there's nuttin the cops can do to em UNLESS THE EMBASSY PERSONNEL TURN EM OVER...to get em out any other way would involve extradition...weird huh?

mazagmot

Reservations are considered sovereign states. I think. Similar to the way military bases are treated in foreign countries. The US bases in Germany are essentially little slices of USA beholden only to federal law and the whims of the Department of Defense. Reservations are little slices of whatever Native American nation lives on them (choctaw, iroquois etc). Please check somewhere else first before believing that totatlly; may have my facts wrong

That said, I think taxes on cigarettes are ridiculous. They always hit hardest those who have the least to spare. Since the tax remains the same no matter the income level of the buyer, those with a lower income pay a higher percentage of that income in cigarette tax. And sales tax. And damn near every other tax except payroll.

I wish more states would get rid of sales tax completely and rely more on income tax since it is easier to make a graduated income tax.

Wish that rants like that would actually help. If they did, we might live in a perfect world by now. :P

ObieX

Slightly off topic but I thought I should let those of us who are trying to quit smoking in on the secret of how to do it, and it is very simple. However, to not spoil it for those who don't want to know i will put it in a spoiler block.

Ready?




Spoiler: Don't buy them.

It worked for me.

Additional info..

Spoiler: Patches and gum do nothing but keep nicotine in your system. That is the very thing you want to get rid of. The reason your cravings don't stop is because you're not stopping use of the drug. The only way to stop is to STOP. Don't ask for them, and if the cashier at the place you go to automatically gives them to you like a routine (like mine did) just wave them off. "Not today" is all you need to say.

You only need to not smoke for 3 days. Thats right, THREE DAYS clean and the only thing that's left will be the need to have something between your fingers. Buy a pen

It really is that simple. If this doesn't work, then you don't want to quit.

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spived2

How do these taxes affect cigarettes bought from e-stores in other countries? Couldn't you just buy them from another country or would that violate some "Taking our cigarette money out of our greedy state hands" law somewhere?

Cigarettes are pretty cheap for me, but that's because I live on a military camp in a foreign country, so we get 0 tax on em. If we were allowed to ship more then one carton at a time, I could easily hook you guys up with some great prices

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moot1337

Taxes are the one reason I'm quite happy that Marijuana isn't legal... at least outrageous shit like this isn't what's driving prices up...

tspikes51

Just make a pilgrimage here to KY. Our cigarette tax is 3 cents a pack. Add that to the fact that we have cheap local smokes that you can get for about $1.75 a pack, or about 11 bucks a carton, and you've got yourself a good deal.

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Psycho Dad

Perhaps there should be some sort of food stamp type program for cigarettes to help those hurt by this pinch. You know... Cigarette stamps. Of course there would have to be rules to keep people from abusing them by trying to use them to get food or essential items with them instead of tobacco.

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betula

Granholm is the governor, btw. Yes, she has spearheaded many of the cig taxes from the past couple years, but I'd put a lot of the blame on the mess Engler left as the budget. The money had to come from somewhere, and as you seem to know already, smokers are an easy segment of the population to pick on with extra taxes.

That said, I don't see how it's fair to only charge tax on cigarettes bought online when everything else is tax free. the people that mention buying from a reservation are on to something... I hear commercials for a local reservation here in WNY on the radio all the time. Cheap cigs and cheap gas to be had because they don't have to charge sales tax. I'd bet you could find one somewhere close by in Michigan, or at least one that will sell by mail/internet.

jorgelito

Do you live close enough to the state line to drive "next door" and pick them up there?

raeanna74

I don't know if this would work or if you could get in trouble for it but what if you had a buddy in another state (with much lower taxes on them) buy them for you and then ship them to you?? It's not a business then and you could send them to money for shipping and cost and no one would be out money. I guess it partly depends on the cost of shipping and what the regulations are there.

I've personally never tried smoking. My grandpa quit cold turkey but he wouldn't have succeeded without the support of my grandma. My brother on the other hand has been a heavy smoker for about 7 years or so. He has tried several ways of quitting. Nicorette is a waste of money in his opinion. He quit cold turkey once too and by day 3 he was coughing up black gunk and sick to his stomach. He managed to stick to it for several week but finally caved and was right back where he started. I read somewhere that the average smoker attempts to quite an average of 7 times before they succeed. Don't be too down on yourself if/when you decide to quite and if you slip - it's normal - just try again.

Oh and I really, really wish there was a way for people to fight things like this when the state comes down on a person and they didn't even know they were "breaking" the law. It's wrong and unfair to pass laws without making them well known. I don't think the government should ever be allowed to tax anything over the internet. It would be hard to track but beyond that - government officials earn too much as it is. They need pay cuts first and then they can see how the budget is doing. Makes me so mad when I hear of things like this. Totally wrong.

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wolf

I wonder if the same law will hold up in Mass, probably, they try to squeeze every nickel out of every person they can, bastards. Well, at least I quit smoking 5 years ago.

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Ripsaw

Move to New York City. If you live paycheck to paycheck, you will either eat, or smoke. But you can't do both. A pack here is just shy of $10. All due to taxes.

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flstf

According to the Native American I talked with some tribes have negotiated away some of their sovereign status for other considerations from the feds like casino permits etc... He warned me to check them out before buying cigarettes from them because they may be required by law to report sales when requested by the states. Of course maybe he just wanted my order, .

mazagmot

But if you pay cash, there should be no way to trace the sales back to you.

Ahh, how I miss the days before credit/debit/check cards...On the plus side, my wallet's a lot smaller now.

flstf

Yeah, I was talking about on line sales from an Indian Reservation website with a credit card.

mazagmot

Didn't know they did that...Guess I should pay more attention to the online.