Assaulted in Wal-mart - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

shakran · 02-07-2005, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

I also love how spanking seems to be the same as beating.....they are two completely different things.

No they're not. What's traditionally defined as beating is simply a more extreme beating than spanking. The only difference between the two is that spanking is marginally socially acceptable - - -although that's slowly changing, and the days of spanking are numbered. After all, 30 years ago it was routine for teachers to spank/paddle children, and that hardly ever happens any more due to social pressures.

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IN MY OPINION people who chose to reason with a child, and Im talking ages 2-5, are parents who love the sound of their own voice so much they love nothing more than repeating the same things over and over when trying to convince your toddler not to do something, and they think that we (as in the public) love their voice so much that we just have NO problem hearing it when shopping somewhere or eating somewhere.

First off, you're assuming that those of us who are opposed to spanking advocate annoying the public with our children. The responsible ones among us most certainly do not. If my child misbehaves in public and a quick "stop it" doesn't work, the child is removed from the public and is disciplined, without spanking, away from the public eye. I firmly believe that I, as with any parent, do not have the right to inflict my children on others. If that means paying and leaving a restaurant after one bite of food because the kid is being obnoxious and irritating other customers, so be it. I most certainly have never sat in an aisle explaining over and over to the kid what he is doing wrong.

I've never been an advocate of constant explanations. My child is smart. I've had his IQ tested and he tests quite well thank you. He can understand when I say "kid, that's not what you should be doing." I don't need to give him a 30 minute lecture on it.

When I say I raise my kid to respect others, I don't mean that I yammer at him constantly. He sees me respecting others. He sees my wife respecting others. If he has questions, he gets them answered. If he needs something explained, he certainly gets it, but it does not turn into a lecture, and it certainly doesn't take place in public.

Frankly, however, I'd much rather see a parent in a store explaining to his kid why what the kid is doing is wrong than to see the parent whipping up on his kid for misbehaving.

ShaniFaye · 02-07-2005, 05:17 PM

Well you're an exception....I know MANY parents that do not advocate spanking that do exactly what I described and they claim to be parenting responsibly, I applaud you for doing it the way you do....wish more parents were like that, but unfortunately more often than not the ones proclaiming spanking is child abuse are the ones letting their children run rapid.....take a survey somewhere like a grocery store and you'll see what I mean. I've done it so Im not just talking off the top of my head.

Its all relative....its an argument that will never be won or lost on either side. My child too is very smart...just as I was. That did not mean that a swat on the butt wasnt used at one time or another and it doesnt mean that either I nor MY child were caused irreperable harm.

shakran · 02-07-2005, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

Well you're an exception....I know MANY parents that do not advocate spanking that do exactly what I described and they claim to be parenting responsibly, I applaud you for doing it the way you do....wish more parents were like that, but unfortunately more often than not the ones proclaiming spanking is child abuse are the ones letting their children run rapid.....take a survey somewhere like a grocery store and you'll see what I mean. I've done it so Im not just talking off the top of my head.

I know you're not. Frankly the vast majority of parents I've seen suck. They won't discipline their kids period because they don't want to go to the effort, or because they want to be the kid's friend. It's not a parent's job to be the kid's friend, it's the parent's job to make sure the kid grows up to be a well adjusted, healthy member of society.

And I also agree that all too often the anti spanking advocates are also the ones who advocate letting the kid color on the wall because they don't want to stifle the little shit's creativity. That's not how I play the game, and I know I'm in the minority, and I also know that that will make it tough for my child - children who are raised properly tend to have a tougher time with the scads of kids who are raised like wolves. That's how I was raised and I had a pretty tough time with the toughs. I learned how to take a beating, that's for sure.

Of course, my kid is also currently being trained by his martial artist father so perhaps he'll have fewer issues like that. . .

And that's another reason I couldn't spank my kid. I'm training him to never hit in anger, and to ONLY strike when there are no alternatives and he is in danger. How could I teach him that with a straight face if I struck him for misbehaving?

ShaniFaye · 02-07-2005, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

It's not a parent's job to be the kid's friend, it's the parent's job to make sure the kid grows up to be a well adjusted, healthy member of society.

we may not agree on the spanking issue....but I back you on that statement 100%

MageB420666 · 02-07-2005, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

That won't teach the child anything other than "avoid pain." It won't teach the kid to respect that other kid. All it will teach him is that if he wants to hit the other kid (and hitting mustn't always be wrong since Mommy just hit him) just make sure to do it when he won't be caught, then he won't be spanked.

If however you raise the kid to be respectful of people, meaning you actually take the time and trouble to work with the kid BEFORE hitting other kids becomes an issue, then you are being proactive rather than reactive and you have a much better chance of stopping the problem before it starts.

Raising a kid to behave well without spanking him is, no question, harder than just spanking him whenever he screws up. But it's a lot kinder, a lot more logical, and frankly any parent who's so lazy they'd rather beat their child than work with their child to teach him good behavior shouldn't be a parent.

And yes, that's in my opinion.

"Avoid pain" is pretty much all a child 2-5 can understand(unless the child happens to be EXCEPTIONALLY bright). At a young age *most* children need to be taught that dissobedience = bad, and the quickest, most effective method of that is, dissobedience = pain = bad. When the child gets older, then start in with the explanations, the reasoning, the method behind the mayhem.

An average 2-5 year old is not going to understand empathy, they live in a singular universe, it's all about them, so the only lessons they are going to learn are those that directly affect them, for some children all it takes is a "timeout" or some other "non-painful" punishment, but for a lot of children, that is not going to work, they need something with a direct immediate punishment to associate the behavior with the punishment. This is not to say that spanking needs to be used every time, it should *in my opinion* be used in cases where the child has done something very bad, or repeats the behavior again and again, despite other forms of punishment.

As for spankings being beatings, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SHITTING ME! A child being spanking is NOTHING like a child being BEATEN. A spanking is performed in a calm manner, is used to discipline the child, and the actual pain is gone in less than a half an hour. A BEATING is done by an angry person, as a way to vent that anger, it has nothing to do with disciplining the child, it has everything to do with the ABUSER. Abuse leaves lasting physical effects that may take days or weeks to heal, and emotional damage that can last through a life time, and I have never heard of a child holding a spanking against the parent for a lifetime. A spanking can turn into a beating, but then it becomes a beating and stops being a spanking. Spanking is a form of discipline, beatings are a form of abuse, if you doubt the difference, come see me and I'll give you an example of each and then if you can still talk after the beating example, I'll ask you again if a spanking is a beating.

Blaspheme · 02-07-2005, 06:24 PM

I was about to post on Shakran's assertion that there's no difference between spankings and beatings, but then I saw MageB4's reply pop up. Aside from the fact that I wouldn't offer to show someone the difference between the two, MageB4's statement pretty much summed up my immediate thoughts on the difference.

I do find it interesting that someone who accuses others of obfuscation continually tries to shift the topic to spankings being used to teach children not to hit. While this circumstance may well present your arguments in the best light, it's far from the only reason corporal punishment is used. Even if that were the only topic at hand, I'll tell you right now that spanking a child for hitting someone is not at all hypocritical. A child hits to express anger or in a desire to cause harm. A spanking should never be administered in anger, should never cause harm, and should be used only as a means to teach a lesson. Any child understands that difference, it's a shame some adults aren't as perceptive.

MageB420666 · 02-07-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaspheme

Aside from the fact that I wouldn't offer to show someone the difference between the two...

I was getting kinda mad, I had to go take a chill pill. I just find it ridiculous that people will make a stand against spanking, and claim that it's abuse. But they don't do anything to try and help people who are in actual abusive situations, they would rather bitch and complain about a toddler receiving a little smack on the butt or hand.

Please note that I am making a GENERALIZATION, it does not apply to everyone, I am well aware that there are many people who help abuse victims and that many of them are probably also opposed to spankings.

shakran · 02-07-2005, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MageB420666

As for spankings being beatings, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SHITTING ME! A child being spanking is NOTHING like a child being BEATEN. A spanking is performed in a calm manner, is used to discipline the child, and the actual pain is gone in less than a half an hour. A BEATING is done by an angry person, as a way to vent that anger, it has nothing to do with disciplining the child, it has everything to do with the ABUSER.

Semantics. First, I never said spankings were abuse. Second, a spanking is simply a mild form of beating. Period. End of sentence.

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if you doubt the difference, come see me and I'll give you an example of each and then if you can still talk after the beating example, I'll ask you again if a spanking is a beating.

Good. Asinine statements like that further reinforce my arguments. Thanks!

(edit) and to clarify my point here, after reading your next post, if you cannot keep your temper in check long enough to post a reasoned counter to my anti-spanking arguments, how can we possibly believe that you are capable of holding your temper in check long enough to keep a spanking from turning into a beating that is abusive?

MageB420666 · 02-07-2005, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Semantics. First, I never said spankings were abuse. Second, a spanking is simply a mild form of beating. Period. End of sentence.

Good. Asinine statements like that further reinforce my arguments. Thanks!

(edit) and to clarify my point here, after reading your next post, if you cannot keep your temper in check long enough to post a reasoned counter to my anti-spanking arguments, how can we possibly believe that you are capable of holding your temper in check long enough to keep a spanking from turning into a beating that is abusive?

Fuck semantics dude, how is a beating not abuse? Would you care to explain that to me?

During a beating you beat someone, as in your intentionally trying to cause *damage*, for no other purpose than not being able to control emotions, during a spanking your causing temoporary pain in order to discipline and teach. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. It's like saying that a packet of mixed nuts is the same as a mental institute.

Oh, and me getting a little angry during an argument has nothing to do with how I actually behave, I can get worked up and angry when it comes to talking, but that does not mean that I loose my temper and start hitting people without cause. Besides, some of the best advice I've heard about giving a spanking, is to not do it when your angry. If that means waiting a few minutes, or even hours to calm down first, then wait and calm down. I know how to control my temper, it has been years since I have been in a fight, and that was with my older brother when we were both in our early teens. When I have kids(if I do, anyways) the only time they would get a spanking would be if they really misbehaved, the major form of punishment would be time outs.

And me becoming angry does not mean that my arguments are no longer reasoned, emotion and reasoning can exist together.

xxSquirtxx · 02-07-2005, 09:36 PM

Haha..funny and sad at the same time. Awesome thread title, BTW.

And yeah, that little shit needs an ass whoopin', yo.

irateplatypus · 02-07-2005, 09:47 PM

i think the terms "beating" and "spanking" are sometimes used too interchangeably.

for the context of this discussion i think of beating as something born out of shortcomings in the adult (poor temper, insecure, frustrated, cruel) while spanking is done for the shortcomings of the child (to teach respect, avoid greater repercussions later in life, provide palpable consequences, etc.)

beating is done too the child, spanking is done for the child. the difference is clear to both parties when they see it.

shakran · 02-07-2005, 09:59 PM

well, not really. .Sure the spanking may be done to teach the child, but the end result is that you have still struck the child. You are using physical violence to effect a change. You are teaching the child that physical violence is an acceptable way to get those who are subservient to you to do your bidding. That is not a good thing to be teaching a child.

analog · 02-07-2005, 11:12 PM

Jesus, people. Is it THAT boring in politics now that the election is over, that you have to sit in HERE and fight about corporal punishment law vs. ethics in a frickin' thread about a little boy punching someone in the leg in a walmart?

What the hell?

02-07-2005, 05:17 PM	#42 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Well you're an exception....I know MANY parents that do not advocate spanking that do exactly what I described and they claim to be parenting responsibly, I applaud you for doing it the way you do....wish more parents were like that, but unfortunately more often than not the ones proclaiming spanking is child abuse are the ones letting their children run rapid.....take a survey somewhere like a grocery store and you'll see what I mean. I've done it so Im not just talking off the top of my head. Its all relative....its an argument that will never be won or lost on either side. My child too is very smart...just as I was. That did not mean that a swat on the butt wasnt used at one time or another and it doesnt mean that either I nor MY child were caused irreperable harm. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

02-07-2005, 06:24 PM	#46 (permalink)
Blaspheme Tilted Location: Oregon, USA	I was about to post on Shakran's assertion that there's no difference between spankings and beatings, but then I saw MageB4's reply pop up. Aside from the fact that I wouldn't offer to show someone the difference between the two, MageB4's statement pretty much summed up my immediate thoughts on the difference. I do find it interesting that someone who accuses others of obfuscation continually tries to shift the topic to spankings being used to teach children not to hit. While this circumstance may well present your arguments in the best light, it's far from the only reason corporal punishment is used. Even if that were the only topic at hand, I'll tell you right now that spanking a child for hitting someone is not at all hypocritical. A child hits to express anger or in a desire to cause harm. A spanking should never be administered in anger, should never cause harm, and should be used only as a means to teach a lesson. Any child understands that difference, it's a shame some adults aren't as perceptive. __________________ Faith: not wanting to know what is true. ~Friedrich Nietzsche

02-07-2005, 09:36 PM	#50 (permalink)
xxSquirtxx More anal, less shenanigans Location: Always lurking	Haha..funny and sad at the same time. Awesome thread title, BTW. And yeah, that little shit needs an ass whoopin', yo. __________________ .

02-07-2005, 09:47 PM	#51 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i think the terms "beating" and "spanking" are sometimes used too interchangeably. for the context of this discussion i think of beating as something born out of shortcomings in the adult (poor temper, insecure, frustrated, cruel) while spanking is done for the shortcomings of the child (to teach respect, avoid greater repercussions later in life, provide palpable consequences, etc.) beating is done too the child, spanking is done for the child. the difference is clear to both parties when they see it. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

02-07-2005, 09:59 PM	#52 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	well, not really. .Sure the spanking may be done to teach the child, but the end result is that you have still struck the child. You are using physical violence to effect a change. You are teaching the child that physical violence is an acceptable way to get those who are subservient to you to do your bidding. That is not a good thing to be teaching a child.

02-07-2005, 11:12 PM	#53 (permalink)
analog Banned	Jesus, people. Is it THAT boring in politics now that the election is over, that you have to sit in HERE and fight about corporal punishment law vs. ethics in a frickin' thread about a little boy punching someone in the leg in a walmart? What the hell?