If you are interested in hermeneutics, please mossy on over to "Tilted Politics" and do some searches on "Bible".

If you don't find something that answers your question, then feel free to start a thread.

That's an interesting philosophy for a "discussion" board, to throw out statements and then not be willing to discuss or field questions about them.
:confused: Especially something like Christianity, whose sole purpose is to convert as many people as possible. But I guess that's another one of those "optional" bits.

I fail to see the reason to create clutter by starting yet another thread when this one is specifically about people's interpretation of the Bible and the will of the almighty.

Perhaps you've been too busy looking to pick an argument with Christians over interpretation of dogma to notice that this thread was actually about laws in Sweden that restrict freedom of speech.

As a non-believer, I enjoy reading a spirited discussion about religion as much as the next guy. Reading someone's one-line "zingers" that attempt to force others to defend their religion isn't alll that entertaining.

Now, were you to follow that up with some insight as to why you hold that statement to be true, it would be considerably more interesting. Without the elucidation on your part however, it just looks like you're trying to start a fight.

You sure about that are you? Interesting since 20 of the 40 posts on the first page of this thread, not including ones by myself or Lebell, are about how people believe "god" acts and feels (love/hate/vengeance/mercy/etc). So whether or not the OP meant for that to be the direction of the topic is irrelevant since "discussions" are fluid entities, otherwise they would be called "lectures"

I do find it amusing that in a thread that you say is about free speech, that I'm getting slammed for asking questions. :thumbsup:

I never once said, implied, or inferred that I have insight regarding this subject. I do however have questions about inconsistencies and "things that just don't jive". But then again I'm not the the one who so believes in something that I am willing to proclaim myself a member of a group, but not be willing to explain the rules to anyone else. And I'm sure as heck not going to accuse someone of "picking a fight" for asking questions about something as important as this is supposed to be.

And even if I was half the "evil meanie" that I'm being made to look like, I would think that Christians would welcome that even more according to Matthew 5:10. Although in this case that may not be applicable. This whole 'the Bible is just a storybook' from a self proclaimed Christian is a new one for me, and bring up a whole new set of questions that won't be answered.

Posh...that's the only part i'll respond to. But if you post in Philosophy, or look up old posts...this is a topic that gets dealt with a lot, by Lebell and others.

So God hates Shrimp and Cigarettes?

Lebell, I understand that the God in the new Testament is running under different rules that the God in the Old Testament. New Covenant and all that sort of thing. What bugs the heck out of me is the number of folks running around claiming to be Christians who haven't figured that out.

According to Bill Moyers quoting a recent Gallup poll, a Third of the American electorate believes the Bible is Literally True. (<a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5211218.html">Here's the link</a> to the Star Tribune piece that I am drawng on.) One Third.

Look at the person to your right and the person to your left. If you don't believe the Bible is Literally true, chances are that one of them does. This is a major failure of our educational system, and it leads to, among many other things, homophobia - or, more generally, xenophobia.

Well, things run in cycles. I'll just hope I survive until the '60s and '70s come back around.

With out speaking for Lebell...this short hand is part and parcel of an anti-Judiasm that plays in to anti-Semitism, and perpetuated grave evils for the last two millenia. I won't tell you there aren't some wrath moments in Hebrew Scripture...but i'm very very catious to let the debate get too simplified. There's a lot riding on how we perpetuate and create images of Judiasm through theology and religious discussion.

tophat...you may also find it interesting that the 50's were a pretty good decade for liberal Christianity. Paul Tillich's "Courage to Be" was widely read, and advocates a post-theistic Christianity. By the 70's, the conservative response was already in full swing, and moved to mainstream culture a few years later. just thought i'd add...

How'bout all those preachers hiding behind a faced that secretly molest chior boys? Just because they are the "servants" of god and they are forgiven?

Hmm, I belive this discussion is slipping out of focus. Stick to the subject fellow tfp:s. :hmm: ;)

mrklixx,

I am avoiding hijacking the thread.

I don't see that it's an unreasonable request to ask you to take it to "Philosophy" and your own thread, or, as it's been pointed out, do a search and read the several threads that have already been done on the topic.

I have to admit from the sounds of things (because there is no link and I haven't done a search because I'm pretty sure i get the idea now) ... oh yes, from the sound of things...

It seems to me that this preacher was arrested for 'trying' to insite a riot to go after homosexuals, but had not actually managed to succeed in this task. However he did discriminate against homosexuals by not allowing them to join his congragation. (please fogive any spelling errors...in a bit of a hurry ;))

The problem I see is he is being punished for something he 'tried' to do along side something he did. I would have much rather have seen this riot come to life and taken more then one person to use as an example. I'm not saying I am hoping for some bad thing to happen to homosexuals because quite honestly I fully support them and their rights to be protected. But the simple truth is, trying to do something and doing something are two different things. Good-prosecute to the fullest of the law for his discrimination, but how can you hold him also accountable for something that didn't fully come to be??

Please know I'm on my way out the door, but had to say something, I will be happy to recheck this post in just a few :)

people are too screwed up in this world.

If say someone is planning a murder, but the cops catches him before doing it, should he not be arrested? Would you like a person like that on the streets?

It's one thing having your own opinion and sharing it with people, it's a whole other thing to preach it as if it was the truth. He went over the line, that is very clear. Whether he should have just been fined or jailed is another matter.

Okay, I just read the actual sermon (at http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=367498 for those of you who understands swedish) and I can't honestly say that Åke tried to rouse actions against homosexuals, except the usual "saving the sinners" stuff. He said that all these people living in sin might make God strike Sweden with earthquakes and floods and that you can't be both homosexual and christian.

The root of the issue is the tangled relations between the church and the state in Sweden. The short story is that the state can't accept that a religious organisation has different opinions than the state. We have freedom of religion, sure, as long as the religions are "sensible". Personally I think the Åke Green case is stupid, that Åke didn't break the law, and a lot of people in Sweden think the same.

Bible quotations come from King James version.
Translators comments in brackets [comment]
The text I'm translating from is obviously a transcript of his exact
words during the sermon so I have tried to correct and change as little
as possible in this translation.



Is homosexuality an inherent urge or is it evil powers playing games with
humans?
I am well aware of the subject being charged and controversial. And even
that it has become that in christian circles.
I have not sought supprot in Gods words for my thoughts. But Gods words
has given me the thoughts I am about to present here today. I will bring forth
the subject of homosexuality but also the the realtionship with christian
homosexuals.
Is it a sign of our time and can somone be saved from it?


God has in genesis created humans to be man and woman. We start in Genesis 1:27-28
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male
and female created he them."
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and
replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the
earth."
Here Gods words says clearly and legible that you were created to be Father
and Mother.
To man and woman. De were supposed to be parents. The Lord says this clearly
and legible.

And the script percives any form of sexuall contact outside the frames of
marriage as fornication. And that signify the word fornication. [Don't ask
I have no idea what he means with the last sentence.]
It is also clearly pronounced in [this is a phrase hard to translate,
"instiftelseorden till äktenskapet" as far as I can tell it means >the words
that institute marriage> but I'm not sure. He uses a religious technical term
that is hard to translate.] in Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his
father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one
flesh."
Here only husband and wife is spoken of... It is not written in any other way
and/or [It is not clear if he means "and" or "or"] you may never interpret it
so that you may chose any partner you may wish.

The urge God put in man to experience the deepest form of companionship and
to presereve marriage in true faithfullness. It has become the devils strongest
weapon in his fight against God and marriage. Namely he uses it against God.
What god has created so that man may experience companionship and faithfullness
and happiness and all that it brings. That is what the devil is using against
God and right in the face of God. To twist and bend/corrupt [Hard translated
term that means both].

In the animal kingdom there is males and females, among the plantes there are
alsom male and female plants, neither in the animal nor in the plant realm
exists any abnormalities. For each speices keeps to it's own kind. That is the
way it is. Untill man in later years has barged in on this area with artifical
impregnations [Term "provrörsbefruktningar" means lit. test tube fertilizations
meaning inseminations of already fertilized eggs] and through cloning. Untill
then it has been the way God said we should live.

Through legalizing partnership between male & male... between female & female.
Will come disasters plain and simply. Without it's likeness. We see the
consequences of this already here. We see it through AIDS that is spreading.
All AIDS-infected are not homosexual, but it has come to be because of this
at one point in time. Ofcourse innocents can be infecte of this terrible
disease without it meaning that it has anything to do with homosexuality.
But still, it will create a huge catastrophe and that already the goverments
and social goverments has found that this they don't master. [This is a hard
sentece to translate since it makes very little sense gramatically in Swedish.
It seems that this is a written transcript of his exact words and his grip
of Swedish grammar is rather scetchy at best. The best I could do was an
interpretation of what he said, if anyone object please open your mouth
and tell me.]. We are experiencing the difficulties with it. But that's not
all, the television told us that the number of STD-infected males and females
are rising.
It is spreading more and more because of people not living the way God intended
man to live toghether. And is because people is derailing into clearly
unbiblical and clearly inhuman relations.
this is no private matter nor is it a right to live in another sexual manner
than what the bible says.
Hebrew 13:4 "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but
whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

No matter how the society views this God will judge both the society and
those who commit the fornication.
Remember this. Both society or [I don't know why he used or instead of and
here, his grammar suck.] the city or the place will God judge above those
who commits this fornication.

If we go back in history to Genesis 19:1-5.
v. 4 "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of
Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his
face toward the ground;"
"And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's
house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early,
and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all
night."
"And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered
into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and
they did eat."
"But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed
the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:"
"And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in
to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."
Here we read about homosexual males for the first time. All of sodoms men
spoke openly and showed openly their deviant sexual alignment. "Both old and
young" we read here. Everyone. And this is whay they say: "that we may know them."
And that means a sexual contact. The same expression that the bible use when
a man goes to a woman. It is the same expression here as say if these men
had lust for eachother. [Yet another grammatically messed up sentence.].

Isaiah puts it like this Isaiah 3:9 "The shew of their countenance doth witness
against them;" that they didn't do in Sodom. Obviously they show themselves
in front of the house and calls for Lot. The righteous, they don't spare him
in any way and says "bring them out unto us, that we may know them.".
We lust for it, frankly and simply. In the middle of the street these men are
standing. They don't conceal their sin.
Completly in the open and unembarrased they spoke of their sexual needs and
that says something about the state in Sodom.

God says to Abraham in Genesis 18:20 "And the LORD said, Because the cry of
Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;". That
says the Lord. Very grievous! They cry from Sodom and Gomorrah it is huge
and griveous. That is the way God views this deviant sexual relation. It is
very griveous says God. It is very griveous that when man gives enraptures
himself this way.

etc.

------------------------------------


This is the beginning of the sermon, I will see if I find time and energy
to translate any further (and if you find it necessarry). But the sermon
doesn't get any better than this.
He begins with stating that it is not Gods words that gave him these
ideas but that the words of God inspired him to think these thoughts
and then he continiues to base most of his arguments on the "words of
God" (the bible).
Then he goes on to blaming AIDS on homosexuals etc.


There are so many misconceptions and misunderstandings in his sermon that
I seroiusly doubt he could have made it through hightschool. He must have
been stuck in a cell with only the bible and a TV a company for years.

that he's using the KJV is probably the first sign that things are off the tracks. lovely as it sounds...it misreads the hebrew in those passages considerably.

/bible dork

He's not using KJV it's me that chose that version since it corresponds best with the quotations in his sermon.

Great work there Cervantes! The sermon looks funny in written text, but bear in mind it was spoken. And they do have a special style of speaking in sermons, you must have heard some things from the Knutby guys? ;) The Bible quotes aren't exact, but it looks more like the 1917 version than the 2000.

Anyone else but me thinks it funny how they always leave out the really nasty parts of the Lot story?

Yeah I've heard a bit about Knutby... Damn TV is running show after show about it, enough already.. :crazy: hehe. That's a wierd story.. That preacher must be a real horndog seducing married women right under their husbands noses and then using his authority to keep it quiet.
I got tired of the story at about a week after the mediacoverage started. Have they figured out who killed who and why yet?

I'd imagine Pingstkyrkan has their own version of the bible (Like Jehovas witness etc.) but I'm not sure (I'm not really a fan of organized religion (or should I say sects?) if you know what I mean), I don't have any Swedish bible to compare with though so I'm shooting a bit in the dark.

I have to agree that they have a special style preaching the sermons, they use a whole lot of dramatical pauses, rethorical tricks and stuff that can't be put into writing. But some of his sentences was complete nonsense, they didn't make any sense what so ever.. Maybe stagefright so he's rambling sometimes.

the linked website is actually beyond belief. The only argument I can find for it being allowed to exist is that it will surely invite ridicule and scorn up[on its creators in all people who see it.

In his sermon he quoted many Bible passages supposedly showing that homosexuality is evil and sinful, but he also closed with this:
I assume this translation is correct.
It seems to me that locking this guy up is going way overboard in an effort to protect minorities.

The translation looks okay to me. And if they want to lock him up for that they are going to have to lock up a LOT of people. The only action against homosexuals he's rousing is to go out and talk to them about Jesus. I know a guy with MS who is hounded by the local Jehova's who wants to exorcise the demons from his body. When is he going to get protection by the law?

is it just me, or are king what'shisname's daughters rather attractive in a not slutty way?

flstf; Man I wish i found that before translating the introduction myself.. Anywho. It seems the language has been polished a bit in the translation you supplied.

I guess he has the right to view homosexuality the way he want's to but to make his whole sermon about how sinfull and wrong it is, then going on blaming homosexuals for AIDS and other catastrophies is going too far.

I agree that imprisoning him is going too far aswell but I don't think he should be allowed to get away with spreading this kind of misinformation either.
Aside from the bible quotes his sermon is a madeup jumble of concealed hate, I have no reason thinking there shouldn't be any reprocussions for this guy.

Holy shit. I just listened to a couple of the "hymes" from GHA. I can say that I honestly feel this man is all the proof I need that sometimes, all it takes is one bullet to make the world a better place. What a fucktard.

What I personally find amusing are the people that claim the KJV is the "One True" Bible, when even the Greek "originals" we have can only be dated back to the 6th century or so. That and the fact that "literal interpretation" is an oxymoron.

Åke Green was acquitted from the charges.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/f..._2-11-2005.pdf