US Soldiers Fleeing to Canada - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

IC3 · 01-29-2005, 10:38 AM

I don't have much to say, But i'm interested to see what american citizens have to say about thier soldiers fleeing them & thier home country.

I got one question..How does an american soldier(s) flee the army without getting court martialed..That's gotta be against US Army Rules.

I am not against what he is saying, doing or his thoughts, Especially if he was ordered to open fire on innocent iraqi citizens..But just the fact that there is hundreds of soldiers planning to flee thier lives to canada kinda of shocked me.

LINK

Quote:

Sat, January 29, 2005

It's not his war

U.S. deserters put their faith in Canada

By Jason Botchford, Toronto Sun

Hundreds of American soldiers are preparing to come to Canada if this country again opens its doors to war resisters.

Toronto lawyer Jeffry House, who is representing Jeremy Hinzman's landmark refugee case, said 200 have contacted him alone, mostly since George W. Bush was re-elected in November, looking for a way out.

Darrell Anderson knows why.

Seven months in combat

After serving in combat in Baghdad for seven months, the 22-year-old Kentucky-bred soldier turned his back on his home, his family -- including his 4-year-old daughter -- and his country to come to Toronto two weeks ago so he didn't have to go back to Iraq and train his gun on one more innocent child.

He is the most recent soldier to desert the American army and come to Canada

At home in Lexington, KY, over Christmas, Anderson read about Hinzman, a paratrooper turned Iraq-war-deserter, who is waiting for a Canadian tribunal to decide next month whether he is a refugee for refusing to fight.

"I saw his story and I saw hope for me," Anderson said. "I was not going back to Iraq to kill innocent people. I couldn't see myself making another decision. I didn't want to live a life where I was hiding in my own country."

House, himself a Vietnam draft dodger, said there are many others like Anderson waiting for the results of Hinzman's landmark case. Never before has there been a Canadian case dealing with American deserters.

"There are a lot people contacting me, wanting to know what would happen if they came to Canada," House said. "They are looking for ways out."

An estimated 5,500 men and women have deserted since the invasion of Iraq, reflecting Washington's growing problems with troop morale.

Anderson is the most recent soldier to come here. He is one of six known American military deserters who fled to Canada rather than go to war or face jail terms. All of them insist they were acting responsibly by refusing to fight what they all call an unjust war.

Anderson made his decision after going home at Christmas following seven months of combat in Iraq, where he won a bravery medal.

"It is just so intense in Iraq," Anderson said. "Many people will face the same question I had. I asked myself, 'Can I die over there? Can I go back and fight this unjust war?' "

The answer two weeks ago, just before Anderson slipped into a car and drove to Canada, was an emphatic ''no.'' But Anderson concedes that his decision was really made for him just about a year ago when he was still in Iraq.

In Baghdad, a car had approached too close to his platoon. He could hear other American soldiers screaming at him to open fire. When the motorist hit the brakes, sparks flew. The intensity piqued. People screamed: "What are you doing? Why aren't you firing?"

Anderson didn't move.

"I felt no threat, I felt the car posed no threat. I wasn't in any danger," Anderson said. "And then the windows rolled down and it was an innocent family. Two parents and some kids in the back. If I would have fired I would have killed innocent kids."

Anderson said he then turned to those fellow soldiers who were screaming at him.

"After that they said, 'Next time you open fire, you do what you're told,' " Anderson said. "They were ordering me to shoot, ordering me to kill innocent people."

Lee Zaslofsky, of Resisters, a Toronto-based group dedicated to helping deserters, is lobbying the government to make it easier for deserters like Anderson to come to Canada.

"We want the government to make it clear that they are going to be welcoming people and allowing them to stay," said Zaslofsky, one of an estimated 60,000 Americans who came here after to dodge the Vietnam War draft. "It's what Canadians want. It's what Canada has done in the past.

"The government should bite the bullet and step up to the plate and do what is right. These are human beings. Do we want to offer them up as sacrifices to the altar of good relations with George Bush?"

During the Vietnam War, Canada had one of the most open immigration policies in the world. People who showed up at the border were given "landed-immigrant" status on the spot. In 1969, Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau instructed immigration officials not to discriminate against applicants because they hadn't fulfilled their military obligations in other countries.

But immigration in Canada now is much more restricted and the country is divided over whether the new era of deserters should be allowed to stay.

Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board has already ruled that Hinzman's claim that the war was illegal was not relevant to his case. The board is expected to determine in March whether Hinzman proved that he would face social persecution if sent home.

The United States Army treats deserters as common criminals, posting them on "wanted" lists with the FBI, state police forces and department of homeland security border patrols.

Unlike the Vietnam era, Canada has not encouraged deserters to seek asylum here and detractors are quick to note that this generation of American troops voluntarily signed up.

Still, there are a large number of people in Toronto willing and ready to help any soldiers who come here.

A group of deserters and old Vietnam War draft dodgers meet every week in Toronto. Sometimes they watch football games, other times they play cards, but all the time they talk about Iraq and the decisions they've made.

Cliff Cornell, 24, came to Toronto Jan. 8. The Arkansas resident was stationed in Georgia. His platoon was to be deployed to Iraq just after this past Christmas. He did not want to go.

He joined the army for a chance at an education but when he saw and heard what was happening in Iraq he made his decision.

He said being able to meet Anderson has helped him immeasurably.

"He wanted to know if it was really as bad as he's heard," Anderson said. "It is. Others ask me that. They want to know if they made the right decision. I tell them how you take your crappy Humvees out in the morning and ride them around Baghdad, hoping not to get blown up."

Anderson joined the army when he was in high school. He had just had a daughter, Tatum, and looked to the army as a way to better himself, a way to get an education and care for his family.

By the time he was deployed to Iraq a year ago he had been in training for one year.

"I was ready to die and defend my country thinking it would make a better life for my (now ex-) wife and daughter," Anderson said.

But that changed. During one of the most dramatic sequences Anderson was driving in a howitzer tank. His friend had just dropped down from his lookout position out of the hatch, bleeding and dying in Anderson's lap.

"I had to immediately take the lookout position and my gun was aimed at this kid who was running by," Anderson said. "It looked like he was carrying something. I pulled the trigger but nothing happened. The safety was still on. That's when I saw it was just an innocent kid. I thought, 'What is my country doing to me? What is my country making me do?' "

Anderson later won a medal for bravery during a firefight. He was leaning out the hatch of his howitzer when a bomb landed near by. Shrapnel ripped through his right side.

When Anderson came home for Christmas he said he was lonely. No one could understand what he had seen and survived.

He said it was impossible to talk to strangers, difficult to talk to even his family.

He said deciding to come to Canada was the most difficult decision he's ever had to make.

"I understand the consequences are the most severe," Anderson said. "I may never be able to go to the United States again. I may never be able to go home. But there was no other decision I could make."

The night before he left for Canada, Anderson saw his daughter.

"I told her I love her, I told her that her daddy will always love her."

degrawj · 01-29-2005, 10:59 AM

I can't blame them. And if the draft is ever re-employed, and I have a chance of being drafted (which at 24 wouldn't be very likely), I would definitely flee to Canada. I don't share the values and thoughts of my President, and I won't let myself be forced to support those values, and I don't think any American should be forced to do something they don't believe in. But yes, I would assume that court martials would be in the works for these former soldiers.

AngelicVampire · 01-29-2005, 11:01 AM

The car approached a check point and presmably did not stop when ordered: that makes it a clear and present threat.

They are deserting the army, they signed up for a tour of duty and signed on the dotted line knowing that they might be called into a situation like this. Deserters are breaking their contracts with the government and betraying their country during a war, treason is normally punishable by death.

The vietnam conscripts had an excuse, they were drafted. These guys signed up knowing full well what might happen, one of these soldiers admits he was in it for a free ride (just wanted in for an education - military presumably paying his way through uni), to desert is against the rules and so they should be punished.

As for Canada I am sure that they have extradition treaties with the US, they should return the deserters to the US.

ziadel · 01-29-2005, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC3

I don't have much to say, But i'm interested to see what american citizens have to say about thier soldiers fleeing them & thier home country.

I got one question..How does an american soldier(s) flee the army without getting court martialed..That's gotta be against US Army Rules.

I am not against what he is saying, doing or his thoughts, Especially if he was ordered to open fire on innocent iraqi citizens..But just the fact that there is hundreds of soldiers planning to flee thier lives to canada kinda of shocked me.

I HIGHLY doubt that anyone was ordered to fire on innocent civiliians... I'm not saying they don't wanna tho, but theres too many cameras over there, so theres no way anyone would try and do it...

people are not joining the army to serve their country anymore, its not about honor and duty anymore, its about cash for college, no one expects to have to fight when they join, and thats why we are having problems like this...

and what happened during Vietnam was different, we had people going up to canada to avoid being drafted, which is a whole different story..

what we are tlaking about is enlisted men, men who CHOSE to join our armed forces....

but, ya know what, if he wants to stay up there, let him stay up there, I don't want to share a country with a man who could abandon his brothers like that

and that may sound harsh, but ya know what, hes hurting the guys who are over there the most, because someday they may find themselves in a bad situation, and they may not get out of it because this guy decided to flee to canada...

jesus I am getting mad thinking about this

support the war or vehemently oppose it, how do you leave your friends to face death alone? how the hell can anyone do that?

IC3 · 01-29-2005, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

I HIGHLY doubt that anyone was ordered to fire on innocent civiliians... I'm not saying they don't wanna tho, but theres too many cameras over there, so theres no way anyone would try and do it...

Well, it's been proven in the past that the cameras over thier arent stopping some soldiers from killing or torturing prisoners or civilians, some of them do it to themselves by taking pictures of what thier doing.

ziadel · 01-29-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC3

Well, it's been proven in the past that the cameras over thier arent stopping some soldiers from killing or torturing prisoners or civilians, some of them do it to themselves by taking pictures of what thier doing.

I stand by my previous comments. The more I think about this the more pissed off I get. I'd kill to be able to get into the army, and this guy just throws it all away.

blktour · 01-29-2005, 11:33 AM

i am in the Army National Guard.. i know you dont all think that means much.. ( from expierence) but i joined for the college money at first.. but once i went through the training i got alot more out of it.. morals.. duty and respect... i love the military.. and the pride that it has.. but for people to run away from the duty that they CHOSE and willingly knew.. just gets me madddddd!!!! i would never do that.. but i get asked all the time.. do u want to go to war??? HECK NO!! but if my number comess.. i just want you all to know.. i will be there with my fellow soldiers!! hhoooaaahh!!! if i die fighting.. i know i died for the better of american people.. i dont always agree with the government but in the end.. it benifits us as people... for money or oil or whatever.. if my number comes up.. then the only thing i will think of fighting for is my family and the good people of this country.. OKOKOKOK.. ill stop.. now.. im getting all choked up....

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-29-2005, 11:36 AM

I'm fully agree here. It's one thing to leave the country because of a draft. But you are a traitor, coward, and a moron if you sign with the Army and don't fullfil your duty to your country. What do you expect the Army or any other branch of the military is there for? How nieve does one have to be. These guys that are desserting are just lucky Iraq isn't a full fledged war, otherwise they would have the legitimate chance of execution, and rightfully so.

They should really staple any and all of the desserters balls to the wall. Sue them for return of pay and benefits, heavily fine them, court martial them, dishonorable discharge, prison time, and most importantly blacklist them so that they may never find a decent job state side again.

AquaFox · 01-29-2005, 11:41 AM

i really think it's low to walk out like that... if you obligated yourself to fight for your country, you should.... i feel sorry that they have to leave there families behind... but they chose to, they knew the possiblities when they joined

i would support it if they were drafted in, but if you signed yourself up, you should stay

Pragma · 01-29-2005, 11:55 AM

Regardless of your reasons for joining the military, one thing needs to be perfectly clear: the military exists to fight. You may join for college money, to get out of a bad home, or any other of thousands of reasons. If you aren't prepared to fight for your country, however, the military is not the place for you.

There isn't an ounce of respect in me for anyone who runs away to Canada after willingly joining the military. If there's a draft and you have your reasons for not wanting to fight, I'm not going to stop you from running away. I wouldn't want someone to get drafted and have to watch my back in a firefight.

ziadel · 01-29-2005, 12:05 PM

I know canada is cold, but fear not Jason Botchford, the deepest circle of hell is reserved for people just like you....

munchen · 01-29-2005, 12:11 PM

I personally have never been in a situation like that but I don't think you ever really know what you are signing up for. Thinking you are going to fight for your country is one thing, but actually being in the midst of a war and being forced to kill innocent civillians is another. If this war was actually neccessary I would be against desserting, like in a world war. I feel this is a stupid war and anyone who has the guts to stand up and stop killing people meaninglessly is welcome in my country.

Also he was only 22 when he joined the army. Someone that young is still getting to know the world, you can't expect him to have everything figured out and he may have not known what he was getting into. He signed up yes, but he didn't know what it would be like over there, nobody did. He may have thought it was a worthy cause, which is in debate, and his views have changed. There has been alot of questionable action being taken over there and not taking part in some of that is okay with me. Its hard to judge someone in this situation without knowing all the facts about him, or having been in his situation. The fact that there are many others trying to escape should say something in itself about the war. Personally I support anyone who wants to stop fighting this "war on terrorism"

IC3 · 01-29-2005, 12:21 PM

I think this war that bush has going on over there is all bullshit, They aren't going to adapt to our lifestyle..Bush is trying to shove the western ways down thier throats.

I totally agree if this was a meaningful war, Like world war 3 then yes what these soldiers are doing would be wrong..But if i was ordered to open fire on innocent people..I would definetly question what bush has me over there for.

I also hope that Canada opens the doors to any soldier who doesn't want to fight George Bush's war anymore.

Rdr4evr · 01-29-2005, 12:29 PM

I'm not surprised he was ordered to murder innocent people, it seems we only here it from soldiers that decide to abandon their slavery. Although I lost respect for him when he decided to join the military, I do give him the respect for deciding to flee while he still could. It's good to see that he wasn't completely brainwashed and at the very least had an ounce of pride remaining to think for himself. I commend him for that.

I do find it incredible, not surprising, but incredible that these guys could kill children like it's nothing, like hunting for deer or something...pretty sadistic. The amount of brainwashing has got to be intensively massive for an individual to think such an act is right and justified.

Dyze · 01-29-2005, 12:34 PM

If soldiers could see a reason why they should fight and die for their country, they probably would not be deserting.

splck · 01-29-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC3

I think this war that bush has going on over there is all bullshit, They aren't going to adapt to our lifestyle..Bush is trying to shove the western ways down thier throats.

I totally agree if this was a meaningful war, Like world war 3 then yes what these soldiers are doing would be wrong..But if i was ordered to open fire on innocent people..I would definetly question what bush has me over there for.

I also hope that Canada opens the doors to any soldier who doesn't want to fight George Bush's war anymore.

I agree. If this were a legitimate war, these fellows wouldn't be going to Canada. Signing up to defend your country is one thing, invading a non-threatening country is another.
Good on these men, standing up, and doing the right thing.

Rekna · 01-29-2005, 12:43 PM

If I were drafted i'm still up in the air about what I would do. I would run to Canada or report to jail. I won't participate in a war in any way. Now for these soldiers many of them signed up for the "free money" for college. It bothers me somewhat that they desert but at the same time I think any soldier should have an option of leaving the military if they find out they can't do what they were trained for (with penalties, ie paying back the government for part of your school costs they paid for, ect).

No one should be forced to kill someone or participate in things that will lead to the death of others.

IC3 · 01-29-2005, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splck

I agree. If this were a legitimate war, these fellows wouldn't be going to Canada. Signing up to defend your country is one thing, invading a non-threatening country is another.
Good on these men, standing up, and doing the right thing.

Exactly.

I read recently that there is an average of 2 american soldiers a day being killed in iraq, For what? Not America. There dying because George Bush has some fucked up idea that he thinks he's gonna be able to fix the middle east.

And as long as George Bush is president, Soldiers are going to keep dying over there for a cause that alot of soldiers seem to be questioning.

The_wall · 01-29-2005, 12:50 PM

If it were a justified war I might be angered by this, but I really don't blame this guy for fleeing.

Schwan · 01-29-2005, 12:58 PM

I do have a feeling that most of the people didn't RTFA. The guy said why he got out of the army and went to Canada - because of the incident with the car full of civilians. There has been a very similar incident a few weeks ago, I can remeber - civilians do get killed on daily basis. Acident, or not - it's a fact. The death toll amongst them is way higher then either the terrorists (or whatever you call them), or the US Army's.

I'm sure that the "dotted line" doesn't mention the fact that you might end up killing someone innocent. I'm sure that the whole enlistment is created in a way to attract as many clueless people as possible - this has been the case, always ("join the army, see the world"). Now if the Army can't be honest to it's own soldiers, warning them what they might come across, I can;t see how you can expect the soldiers to be honest towards their army.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blktour

i just want you all to know.. i will be there with my fellow soldiers!! hhoooaaahh!!! if i die fighting.. i know i died for the better of american people.. i dont always agree with the government but in the end.. it benifits us as people... for money or oil or whatever.. if my number comes up.. then the only thing i will think of fighting for is my family and the good people of this country.. OKOKOKOK.. ill stop.. now.. im getting all choked up....

You scare me.

ziadel · 01-29-2005, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwan

You scare me.

Elaborate on that please.

Schwan · 01-29-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

Elaborate on that please.

I think that anyone willing to go to war without asking or caring for the real reason is scary and that person is certainly not responsible enough to carry a gun, or a pocket knife, for that matter.

ziadel · 01-29-2005, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwan

I think that anyone willing to go to war without asking or caring for the real reason is scary and that person is certainly not responsible enough to carry a gun, or a pocket knife, for that matter.

Following orders is a big part of being a soldier. You just do what you have to do. And wether or not we are at war for a good reason, or if it is in fact a 'real war' is not something for soldiers to decide. It's for the American voter to decide, and they have decided. Now can we cut all the talk about this not being a real war, because I can assure you its VERY real to all the soldiers over there.
I'm not gonna even get into the 'not responsible enough to carry a gun' discussion.

Do you think the guys who took normandy cared about the reason we were there? Nope, it was just 'hes trying to kill me so I have to kill him before he kills me or my friends'.

Once again, soldiers dont fight for political reasons, they fight for each other.

If this guy simply refused to fight, and stood tall before the man for it, I might actually have some respect for him, but choosing to join the army, then turning coward and running to canada is despicable.

Blaspheme · 01-29-2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splck

I agree. If this were a legitimate war, these fellows wouldn't be going to Canada.

You know, nowhere in US armed forces recruitment papers does it say that you only have to follow orders that you agree with. Far to the contrary, when you enlist you are agreeing to do anything you are told to, up to and including laying down your life in the line of duty. Nobody made these people enlist, this is a 100% volunteer orginization.

If a soldier disagrees so strongly with what he is being asked to do that he feels it is his moral obligation to refuse, then he needs to stand up for his beliefs and have his day in court. These cowards who are trying to run away from the oaths they swore, and the obligations they willingly took on, just make me sick.

IC3 · 01-29-2005, 01:18 PM

No it's not a soldiers decision on what he's going to war for..But if it's an unjust war..every soldier should have the decision on whether he wants to die for an unjust reason.

ziadel · 01-29-2005, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC3

No it's not a soldiers decision on what he's going to war for..But if it's an unjust war..every soldier should have the decision on whether he wants to die for an unjust reason.

Nope, soldiers dont have that luxury, well, they did, but they lost that luxury when they made the transition from civilian to soldier...

There is not to reason why, there is but to do and die.

If things were theat bad, he could have refused an illegal order, which he is obligated to do. But that doesnt mean you run to canada

Schwan · 01-29-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

Following orders is a big part of being a soldier. You just do what you have to do. And wether or not we are at war for a good reason, or if it is in fact a 'real war' is not something for soldiers to decide.

Well, let's agree to disagree on that one. A soldier should have every right to know what he is risking his life for. Otherwise, there's nothing distinguishing him from a slave. Also, a soldier that truly believes in what he is fighting for is much more efefctive on the battlefield, thus he's a much better aset to the army, and he's less likely to run to, say, Canada.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

It's for the American voter to decide, and they have decided.

Last time I checked, the United States had a presidential election, and not a referendum for/against the war. The American voter had squat to say about the war. Either candidate would need to keep their troops in Iraq, for a longer or shorter time, but still. But, again, I don't recall the US public being asked of their opinion before the invasion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

Now can we cut all the talk about this not being a real war, because I can assure you its VERY real to all the soldiers over there.

I know. My country lost twenty good soldiers there, supporting Your country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

If this guy simply refused to fight, and stood tall before the man for it, I might actually have some respect for him, but choosing to join the army, then turning coward and running to canada is despicable.

I think it would be despicable if he didn't have a reason. He didn't want to kill civilians, under order or not - doesn't matter. Bottom line is he, along with 5,500 other people from Your country, was afraid to go back home. You know, to the land of the free, and all that.

The_wall · 01-29-2005, 01:27 PM

I don't blame people for joining the army for college money or whatever, and being ingnorant about what they are getting themselves into. The army is a pretty good deal if you don't have to go to war, and its available to just about anyone. If I joined the army before this war, I would have trusted my country to not send me to war unless it was absolutely needed, and when we invaded Iraq I would probably want to flee as well.

Lebell · 01-29-2005, 01:38 PM

Imagine...

...an Army where you could pick and choose the orders you had to obey and the wars you had to take part in...

/sarcasm.

I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who signs up for the cash and then runs when he is asked to do what he signed up to do.

As to the "ordering me to murder" people, I would be damn sure to steer clear of any American platoon if I was an Iraqi driver.

That isn't to say that I don't have sympathy for their situation, but the truth is that if the insurgents didn't use car bombs, then there wouldn't be a problem.

ziadel · 01-29-2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwan

Well, let's agree to disagree on that one. A soldier should have every right to know what he is risking his life for. Otherwise, there's nothing distinguishing him from a slave. Also, a soldier that truly believes in what he is fighting for is much more efefctive on the battlefield, thus he's a much better aset to the army, and he's less likely to run to, say, Canada.

I simply cannot agree to disagree on that one, becaue its such a fundamental part of being a soldier. Do you think Carlos Hathcock knew why he had to crawl 2000 meters through 2 feet high grass, covering about a yard or two an hour, while being eaten alive by bugs to shoot a NVA general? Nope, he did'nt, it could very well have been that HIS general lost a game of cards to THAT general, and his general wanted the dude dead. He did it because uif he did'nt, someone else would have to, and he did'nt wanna put anyone else in harms way. In short, the dude needed to get got, so he went and got him.
The most effective soldier doesnt know why hes on the battlefield at the time, he just knows hes there and what he has to do.

Quote:

Last time I checked, the United States had a presidential election, and not a referendum for/against the war. The American voter had squat to say about the war. Either candidate would need to keep their troops in Iraq, for a longer or shorter time, but still. But, again, I don't recall the US public being asked of their opinion before the invasion.

This whole Iraq thing was going on, and if people didnt like the way GW was doing it, the majority would have voted against him... In my eyes, that election WAS a referrendum for/against the war, you like the way things are going, vote for GW, is you want to declare victory and run like hell, vote for Kerry.... thats the way the election seemed to me...

Grasshopper Green · 01-29-2005, 01:53 PM

While I'm choosing not to condemn/applaud these men's decisions, I would like to bring something up. If a soldier is more focused on the fact that the was sucks (and what war doesnt?), and he misses his family/kids/wife/whatever, he's not going to be able to focus on the mission he has set out to do. And that lack of focus could very likely get him or his buddies killed. Perhaps it is better to have these people out of the conflict, whether fleeing to another country or being court martialed.

ziadel · 01-29-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa99

While I'm choosing not to condemn/applaud these men's decisions, I would like to bring something up. If a soldier is more focused on the fact that the was sucks (and what war doesnt?), and he misses his family/kids/wife/whatever, he's not going to be able to focus on the mission he has set out to do. And that lack of focus could very likely get him or his buddies killed. Perhaps it is better to have these people out of the conflict, whether fleeing to another country or being court martialed.

well now, ya see, the problem is, if he had been upfronit and said, I dont have the stomach for this, I can't do it... he would have been digging latrines and washing dishes for the remainder of his service... why the heck would he want to do that when he can just.... you guessed it.... run to canada!

Schwan · 01-29-2005, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

I simply cannot agree to disagree on that one, becaue its such a fundamental part of being a soldier. Do you think Carlos Hathcock knew why he had to crawl 2000 meters through 2 feet high grass, covering about a yard or two an hour, while being eaten alive by bugs to shoot a NVA general? Nope, he did'nt, it could very well have been that HIS general lost a game of cards to THAT general, and his general wanted the dude dead. He did it because uif he did'nt, someone else would have to, and he did'nt wanna put anyone else in harms way. In short, the dude needed to get got, so he went and got him.

I don't know that man's story, but I'm sure he believed in what he was doing, and his motivation was a bit higher than "that's my order, and that's that". But that's just my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

The most effective soldier doesnt know why hes on the battlefield at the time, he just knows hes there and what he has to do.

I've been tought in the military academy that the most effective soldier is a well trained one, who is defending his homeland. You don't have to look far for examples. How about, say, Vietnam and, oh, what the heck - Iraq?

Here's another fun fact for the pro-court martial crowd. The Old Testament (2 Krn 15, 16, 20, 23 and Mi for a start) described the Hebrews as one of the most brutal, pro-war nations and armies in the world at the time. What God told these folks to do was to kill each and every man in the oposing army, and fun stuff like that. But the real kicker is this - even though the Hebrews were pro-war, more than anyone else, there were several ways not to go to war. One of them was to plant a vine yard. The other to marry the girl. Ooh, and you know what? You could've said that you were scared, and they'd let you go just like that (no court martial)! Well, that was over two thousand years ago. What you guys are saying is that your army should be even more vile and tough with it's own soldiers than one of the most aggresive armies from the barbaric, ancient times. So... where does that put your military culture?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

This whole Iraq thing was going on, and if people didnt like the way GW was doing it, the majority would have voted against him... In my eyes, that election WAS a referrendum for/against the war, you like the way things are going, vote for GW, is you want to declare victory and run like hell, vote for Kerry.... thats the way the election seemed to me...

Alas, it was only in your eyes, and that does not make it a referendum, from the pont of view of the constitution, for a start. It was just what it was called - a presidential election.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-29-2005, 05:57 PM

The people spoke when they elected officials to congress, and they in turn gave the president authority for action in Iraq, that is the nature of the beast.

Any all desserters are cowards, if they were so righteous and full of conviction they could take their licks like men and refuse orders. But no they are running like cowards, fleeing like little bitches.

Also to add, albeit more harshly, to what Lebell said, many of you people here are frighteningly ignorant regarding the military. When you have break down of command and soldiers don't obey you get problems, shit like this only leads to drama. The man signed a contract in a volunteer army, the President of The United States legally initiated this war through the powers trusted to him by the constitution; remember you guys, these soldiers swear feality to America and the President, they are sworn to defend the constitution against it's enemies, they do not claim feality to corrupt world organizations like the UN.

Lockjaw · 01-29-2005, 06:08 PM

He is the epitome of cowardess.

If you don't like it object. If you don't like it they will gladly send your butt back home give you a dishonorable discharge or stick you some place behind a desk. At worst be a man take your jail time. If he did any of those I'd have no problems with it. He didn't. He ran and that makes him the lowest scum in the book in my opinion.

I don't agree with this war and I think it's just flat out wrong, but the fact he volunteered and wanted to use the army to pay for his education and not uphold the other end of the bargin sickens me.
Hell if he wanted out he could have just "come out of the closet" and hit on his CO.
I hope he doesn't get sent back here. I don't want tax payer money to go to waste on his sorry butt. For any of them that do leave I don't want them to ever set one foot in this country ever again. If we even catch you trying to catch a connecting flight some place 40 years from now they should haul them off to prison immediately.
I also think it's a sad and pathetic commentary to have people saying "They wanted him to kill innocent civilians!"
It's not like they ordered him to open fire on a crowd of kids or people at a market. There was a car speeding at them that didn't heed the checkpoint. That typically signals a potential suicide bomber. So the order itself WAS justified.

Scorps · 01-29-2005, 06:19 PM

Wow that must have been hard for Darrell Anderson to leave his daughter behind.....my daughter is 5 now I havn't seen her for 3 years now.....I hate everyday not seeing her...I know his pain

Seaver · 01-29-2005, 06:29 PM

This guy is a coward and a traitor. I dont care about his excuses or ways he tries to justify it. I would love to see this guy hang, and I pray he isnt given a pardon. I do support the pardoning of the Vietnam war, but not for this shitbag.

IC3 · 01-29-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Nope, soldiers dont have that luxury

Actually, It looks like they do now.

degrawj · 01-29-2005, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by munchen

I personally have never been in a situation like that but I don't think you ever really know what you are signing up for. Thinking you are going to fight for your country is one thing, but actually being in the midst of a war and being forced to kill innocent civillians is another. If this war was actually neccessary I would be against desserting, like in a world war. I feel this is a stupid war and anyone who has the guts to stand up and stop killing people meaninglessly is welcome in my country.

Also he was only 22 when he joined the army. Someone that young is still getting to know the world, you can't expect him to have everything figured out and he may have not known what he was getting into. He signed up yes, but he didn't know what it would be like over there, nobody did. He may have thought it was a worthy cause, which is in debate, and his views have changed. There has been alot of questionable action being taken over there and not taking part in some of that is okay with me. Its hard to judge someone in this situation without knowing all the facts about him, or having been in his situation. The fact that there are many others trying to escape should say something in itself about the war. Personally I support anyone who wants to stop fighting this "war on terrorism"

Very good points munchen. Well spoken.

filtherton · 01-29-2005, 07:05 PM

I wonder how many of you who throw around the word cowardice have actually been in the armed forces during wartime. I know some of you are currently and i know some of you probably aren't. Comedy is labelling someone a coward for their unwillingness to fight a war that you yourself are too "cowardly" to fight.

Personally, i would be apprehensive about brewing a pot of coffee under the leadership of donald rumsfeld. I can't imagine fighting a war under his leadership.

01-29-2005, 11:36 AM	#8 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I'm fully agree here. It's one thing to leave the country because of a draft. But you are a traitor, coward, and a moron if you sign with the Army and don't fullfil your duty to your country. What do you expect the Army or any other branch of the military is there for? How nieve does one have to be. These guys that are desserting are just lucky Iraq isn't a full fledged war, otherwise they would have the legitimate chance of execution, and rightfully so. They should really staple any and all of the desserters balls to the wall. Sue them for return of pay and benefits, heavily fine them, court martial them, dishonorable discharge, prison time, and most importantly blacklist them so that they may never find a decent job state side again. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 01-29-2005 at 11:39 AM..

01-29-2005, 11:41 AM	#9 (permalink)
AquaFox WaterDog	i really think it's low to walk out like that... if you obligated yourself to fight for your country, you should.... i feel sorry that they have to leave there families behind... but they chose to, they knew the possiblities when they joined i would support it if they were drafted in, but if you signed yourself up, you should stay __________________ ...AquaFox...

01-29-2005, 12:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	I know canada is cold, but fear not Jason Botchford, the deepest circle of hell is reserved for people just like you.... __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

01-29-2005, 12:11 PM	#12 (permalink)
munchen Crazy Location: Sudbury, Ontario	I personally have never been in a situation like that but I don't think you ever really know what you are signing up for. Thinking you are going to fight for your country is one thing, but actually being in the midst of a war and being forced to kill innocent civillians is another. If this war was actually neccessary I would be against desserting, like in a world war. I feel this is a stupid war and anyone who has the guts to stand up and stop killing people meaninglessly is welcome in my country. Also he was only 22 when he joined the army. Someone that young is still getting to know the world, you can't expect him to have everything figured out and he may have not known what he was getting into. He signed up yes, but he didn't know what it would be like over there, nobody did. He may have thought it was a worthy cause, which is in debate, and his views have changed. There has been alot of questionable action being taken over there and not taking part in some of that is okay with me. Its hard to judge someone in this situation without knowing all the facts about him, or having been in his situation. The fact that there are many others trying to escape should say something in itself about the war. Personally I support anyone who wants to stop fighting this "war on terrorism" __________________ "Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun" -Matt Groening

01-29-2005, 12:21 PM	#13 (permalink)
IC3 Poison Location: Canada	I think this war that bush has going on over there is all bullshit, They aren't going to adapt to our lifestyle..Bush is trying to shove the western ways down thier throats. I totally agree if this was a meaningful war, Like world war 3 then yes what these soldiers are doing would be wrong..But if i was ordered to open fire on innocent people..I would definetly question what bush has me over there for. I also hope that Canada opens the doors to any soldier who doesn't want to fight George Bush's war anymore. __________________ "To win any battle, you must fight as if you were already dead" -Musashi Last edited by IC3; 01-29-2005 at 12:33 PM..

01-29-2005, 10:59 AM	#2 (permalink)
degrawj I'm still waiting... Location: West Linn, OR	I can't blame them. And if the draft is ever re-employed, and I have a chance of being drafted (which at 24 wouldn't be very likely), I would definitely flee to Canada. I don't share the values and thoughts of my President, and I won't let myself be forced to support those values, and I don't think any American should be forced to do something they don't believe in. But yes, I would assume that court martials would be in the works for these former soldiers.

01-29-2005, 11:01 AM	#3 (permalink)
AngelicVampire Insane	The car approached a check point and presmably did not stop when ordered: that makes it a clear and present threat. They are deserting the army, they signed up for a tour of duty and signed on the dotted line knowing that they might be called into a situation like this. Deserters are breaking their contracts with the government and betraying their country during a war, treason is normally punishable by death. The vietnam conscripts had an excuse, they were drafted. These guys signed up knowing full well what might happen, one of these soldiers admits he was in it for a free ride (just wanted in for an education - military presumably paying his way through uni), to desert is against the rules and so they should be punished. As for Canada I am sure that they have extradition treaties with the US, they should return the deserters to the US.

01-29-2005, 11:33 AM	#7 (permalink)
blktour Psycho Location: Anchorage, AK	i am in the Army National Guard.. i know you dont all think that means much.. ( from expierence) but i joined for the college money at first.. but once i went through the training i got alot more out of it.. morals.. duty and respect... i love the military.. and the pride that it has.. but for people to run away from the duty that they CHOSE and willingly knew.. just gets me madddddd!!!! i would never do that.. but i get asked all the time.. do u want to go to war??? HECK NO!! but if my number comess.. i just want you all to know.. i will be there with my fellow soldiers!! hhoooaaahh!!! if i die fighting.. i know i died for the better of american people.. i dont always agree with the government but in the end.. it benifits us as people... for money or oil or whatever.. if my number comes up.. then the only thing i will think of fighting for is my family and the good people of this country.. OKOKOKOK.. ill stop.. now.. im getting all choked up....

01-29-2005, 11:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
Pragma I am Winter Born Location: Alexandria, VA	Regardless of your reasons for joining the military, one thing needs to be perfectly clear: the military exists to fight. You may join for college money, to get out of a bad home, or any other of thousands of reasons. If you aren't prepared to fight for your country, however, the military is not the place for you. There isn't an ounce of respect in me for anyone who runs away to Canada after willingly joining the military. If there's a draft and you have your reasons for not wanting to fight, I'm not going to stop you from running away. I wouldn't want someone to get drafted and have to watch my back in a firefight.

01-29-2005, 12:29 PM	#14 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	I'm not surprised he was ordered to murder innocent people, it seems we only here it from soldiers that decide to abandon their slavery. Although I lost respect for him when he decided to join the military, I do give him the respect for deciding to flee while he still could. It's good to see that he wasn't completely brainwashed and at the very least had an ounce of pride remaining to think for himself. I commend him for that. I do find it incredible, not surprising, but incredible that these guys could kill children like it's nothing, like hunting for deer or something...pretty sadistic. The amount of brainwashing has got to be intensively massive for an individual to think such an act is right and justified.

01-29-2005, 12:34 PM	#15 (permalink)
Dyze Crazy	If soldiers could see a reason why they should fight and die for their country, they probably would not be deserting. __________________ Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do.

01-29-2005, 12:43 PM	#17 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	If I were drafted i'm still up in the air about what I would do. I would run to Canada or report to jail. I won't participate in a war in any way. Now for these soldiers many of them signed up for the "free money" for college. It bothers me somewhat that they desert but at the same time I think any soldier should have an option of leaving the military if they find out they can't do what they were trained for (with penalties, ie paying back the government for part of your school costs they paid for, ect). No one should be forced to kill someone or participate in things that will lead to the death of others.

01-29-2005, 12:50 PM	#19 (permalink)
The_wall Psycho Location: Rhode Island biatches!	If it were a justified war I might be angered by this, but I really don't blame this guy for fleeing. __________________ "We do what we like and we like what we do!"~andrew Wk Procrastinate now, don't put off to the last minute.

01-29-2005, 01:18 PM	#25 (permalink)
IC3 Poison Location: Canada	No it's not a soldiers decision on what he's going to war for..But if it's an unjust war..every soldier should have the decision on whether he wants to die for an unjust reason. __________________ "To win any battle, you must fight as if you were already dead" -Musashi

01-29-2005, 01:27 PM	#28 (permalink)
The_wall Psycho Location: Rhode Island biatches!	I don't blame people for joining the army for college money or whatever, and being ingnorant about what they are getting themselves into. The army is a pretty good deal if you don't have to go to war, and its available to just about anyone. If I joined the army before this war, I would have trusted my country to not send me to war unless it was absolutely needed, and when we invaded Iraq I would probably want to flee as well. __________________ "We do what we like and we like what we do!"~andrew Wk Procrastinate now, don't put off to the last minute.

01-29-2005, 01:38 PM	#29 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Imagine... ...an Army where you could pick and choose the orders you had to obey and the wars you had to take part in... /sarcasm. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who signs up for the cash and then runs when he is asked to do what he signed up to do. As to the "ordering me to murder" people, I would be damn sure to steer clear of any American platoon if I was an Iraqi driver. That isn't to say that I don't have sympathy for their situation, but the truth is that if the insurgents didn't use car bombs, then there wouldn't be a problem. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! Last edited by Lebell; 01-29-2005 at 06:11 PM..

01-29-2005, 01:53 PM	#31 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	While I'm choosing not to condemn/applaud these men's decisions, I would like to bring something up. If a soldier is more focused on the fact that the was sucks (and what war doesnt?), and he misses his family/kids/wife/whatever, he's not going to be able to focus on the mission he has set out to do. And that lack of focus could very likely get him or his buddies killed. Perhaps it is better to have these people out of the conflict, whether fleeing to another country or being court martialed.

01-29-2005, 05:57 PM	#34 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	The people spoke when they elected officials to congress, and they in turn gave the president authority for action in Iraq, that is the nature of the beast. Any all desserters are cowards, if they were so righteous and full of conviction they could take their licks like men and refuse orders. But no they are running like cowards, fleeing like little bitches. Also to add, albeit more harshly, to what Lebell said, many of you people here are frighteningly ignorant regarding the military. When you have break down of command and soldiers don't obey you get problems, shit like this only leads to drama. The man signed a contract in a volunteer army, the President of The United States legally initiated this war through the powers trusted to him by the constitution; remember you guys, these soldiers swear feality to America and the President, they are sworn to defend the constitution against it's enemies, they do not claim feality to corrupt world organizations like the UN. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-29-2005, 06:08 PM	#35 (permalink)
Lockjaw Junkie	He is the epitome of cowardess. If you don't like it object. If you don't like it they will gladly send your butt back home give you a dishonorable discharge or stick you some place behind a desk. At worst be a man take your jail time. If he did any of those I'd have no problems with it. He didn't. He ran and that makes him the lowest scum in the book in my opinion. I don't agree with this war and I think it's just flat out wrong, but the fact he volunteered and wanted to use the army to pay for his education and not uphold the other end of the bargin sickens me. Hell if he wanted out he could have just "come out of the closet" and hit on his CO. I hope he doesn't get sent back here. I don't want tax payer money to go to waste on his sorry butt. For any of them that do leave I don't want them to ever set one foot in this country ever again. If we even catch you trying to catch a connecting flight some place 40 years from now they should haul them off to prison immediately. I also think it's a sad and pathetic commentary to have people saying "They wanted him to kill innocent civilians!" It's not like they ordered him to open fire on a crowd of kids or people at a market. There was a car speeding at them that didn't heed the checkpoint. That typically signals a potential suicide bomber. So the order itself WAS justified.

01-29-2005, 06:19 PM	#36 (permalink)
Scorps Lost!! Location: Kingston, Ontario	Wow that must have been hard for Darrell Anderson to leave his daughter behind.....my daughter is 5 now I havn't seen her for 3 years now.....I hate everyday not seeing her...I know his pain

01-29-2005, 06:29 PM	#37 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	This guy is a coward and a traitor. I dont care about his excuses or ways he tries to justify it. I would love to see this guy hang, and I pray he isnt given a pardon. I do support the pardoning of the Vietnam war, but not for this shitbag.

01-29-2005, 07:05 PM	#40 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I wonder how many of you who throw around the word cowardice have actually been in the armed forces during wartime. I know some of you are currently and i know some of you probably aren't. Comedy is labelling someone a coward for their unwillingness to fight a war that you yourself are too "cowardly" to fight. Personally, i would be apprehensive about brewing a pot of coffee under the leadership of donald rumsfeld. I can't imagine fighting a war under his leadership.