Judge orders abortion for disabled woman - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sixate · 05-23-2003, 05:08 PM

LINKY

Quote:

Judge orders abortion
for disabled woman
28-year-old also to undergo tubal ligation to bar future pregnancies

A Miami judge has ruled a mentally disabled rape victim should have an abortion because the pregnancy could be life-threatening, according to local press reports.

The woman, whose identity is not being revealed, is mentally retarded with the cognitive abilities of a 4-year-old, deaf, prone to having seizures and has a shunt in her brain to drain excess fluid.

Police believe the woman was raped, and likely more than once.

Medical experts say carrying the pregnancy to full-term would be dangerous for her and may result in the baby being deformed. The mother of the woman asked for the pregnancy to be terminated.

"My main concern now is my daughter,'' she told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. "When I heard that heartbeat, you will never know what it did to me. But I can't be asked to choose between my grandchild or my daughter."

Doctors at Jackson Memorial Hospital scheduled an abortion for last week, reports the Sun-Sentinel, but chose not to perform it because the baby appeared to be developing normally and there was no medical reason to terminate the pregnancy.

Yesterday, the woman's newly appointed guardians asked the court to decide the fate of the 23-week-old unborn baby.

"My baby no more,'' the disabled woman reportedly told the judge at the hearing.

Lewis Fogle, the woman's court-appointed attorney, told Circuit Judge Arthur Rothenberg that after looking into the case and communicating with her as much as he could, he concluded she wanted an abortion.

In a brief order issued today, Rothenberg agreed to the abortion and also ordered the 28-year-old woman to undergo a tubal ligation to prevent future pregnancies, reports the Miami Herald.

Rothenberg also ordered a DNA sample from the unborn baby be preserved so that police can identify the rapist, according to the paper.

The ruling may have an effect on the controversial case of a disabled 22-year-old Orlando woman who was also raped while under the care of Florida child-welfare authorities.

As WorldNetDaily reported, Gov. Jeb Bush intervened in the case, requesting a guardian be appointed to represent the interests of the unborn baby.

His involvement came after officials with the Department of Children & Families, or DCF, initially filed an emergency petition asking a circuit judge in Orlando to appoint separate guardians for the woman and the child, but later dropped the request, citing a 1989 Florida Supreme Court ruling in a landmark abortion-rights case.

Bush, who opposes abortion, overruled the agency and ordered lawyers to seek a guardian for the unborn baby.

"Given the facts of this case, it is entirely appropriate that an advocate be appointed to represent the unborn child's best interests in all decisions," Bush said in a statement. "While others may interpret this case in light of their own positions, we see it as the singular tragedy it is, and remain focused on serving the best interests of this particular victim and her unborn child."

The ACLU, along with the National Organization for Women and Center for Reproductive Rights, filed a court brief asking the court to deny the governor's request, claiming such a judgment would go against precedent that a "fetus" is not a person.

So what are you opinions on this topic.
Should disabled people be allowed to have children?
I say no.
There's no way in hell that a disabled person with cognitive abilities of a 4-year-old can raise a child properly. I dare someone to prove me wrong. The only way in hell that it can work is if there is someone living with the disabled adult taking care of them and the child. I say fuck that. Abort!

I can bet I'll be standing alone with my opinion.

gov135 · 05-23-2003, 05:16 PM

I actually agree with Sixate. Time to check the temperature in hell.

Even if you would say, "this baby could be put into the adoption system," you have to admit that you would be wary adopting a baby whose mother is disabled. That may be a little mean, but if you are adopting, you want to know the lineage your kid comes from.

Too many children are not wanted, loved, or provided for. This was the correct move.

viveleroi0 · 05-23-2003, 05:27 PM

I agree... you know it sounds like the right thing to do but it looks and feels so shitty to read... this kid may have had a possible wonderful future but the odds of that appear so slim... the shitty thing is, is that no matter how slim those odds are still there.

WhoaitsZ · 05-23-2003, 05:33 PM

sixate: we better be ready. our agreeing obviously is a sign Jesus is coming back.

that case........ how in the hell can someone do such a thing? i hope that guy lives a looooooooooooonnnnnnngggggg multiple raped life as the official ass bang bitch of the prison.

since she has the mental ability of a 4 year old with serious medical risk, i think the judge made the correct call.

god have mercy on her.

Phaenx · 05-23-2003, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoaitsZ
sixate: we better be ready. our agreeing obviously is a sign Jesus is coming back.

that case........ how in the hell can someone do such a thing? i hope that guy lives a looooooooooooonnnnnnngggggg multiple raped life as the official ass bang bitch of the prison.

since she has the mental ability of a 4 year old with serious medical risk, i think the judge made the correct call.

god have mercy on her.

According to some kid that keeps quoting scriptures at me while I'm minding my business at the driving range, retards automatically go to heaven, no worries there!

gibber71 · 05-23-2003, 06:37 PM

What a fucked story. Is everyone forgetting that she was probably raped as stated. For fuck sakes. She has the mentality of a four year old. Does Florida have the death penalty. Oh, I'm sorry,..the guy raped her,..he didn't kill her. Smoke on that for a while.

WhoaitsZ · 05-23-2003, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
According to some kid that keeps quoting scriptures at me while I'm minding my business at the driving range, retards automatically go to heaven, no worries there!

uuuuuuuuuh

what? tell the kid to shut up.

bible thumping never works.

The_Dude · 05-23-2003, 08:10 PM

no, retarted people shouldnt be allowed to reproduce, but that should be the case only in extreme cases, like this one.

but if the baby has a good shot of coming out normal, then i would let the immediate family of the retarded person make the decision and stick me head out of there.

nine · 05-23-2003, 08:14 PM

Without getting emotional about the obsolute horror this lady went through and the fact that we'll never know if she mentally recovers

There are three points

1) She has the mental age of a 4yo. If it were me, I'd like to think that my mother would have the whereabouts to terminate my pregnancy if I were 4yo.

2) She is in physical danger herself if she continues the pregnancy

3) She was raped! - it simply was not meant to be. Please don't contrast this statement with an unwanted pregnancy - it is not the same.

As to some of you guys taking this story and making the point about disabled people not being allowed to have children - well, thank god you don't get to make that decision.

krwlz · 05-23-2003, 08:15 PM

Definatly the right call to abort, but I would like to add my agreement with Z....One would have to fucked up to rape someone, but truly fucked up (not to mention unbelievablely horny) to take advantage of a mentaly retarded woman...almost as bad as raping the 4 year old she has the capacity of....

Macheath · 05-23-2003, 08:57 PM

It's pretty shitty for Jeb Bush to be scoring political points like this.

As to the evil scum that raped her, I declare that he be executed by scaphismus.

Lebell · 05-23-2003, 10:48 PM

There is the issue of the story and the issue Sixate raises.

They are not the same.

In the story, the issue is that a mentally retarded woman was raped and the pregnancy is life threatening. Her guardian (her mother) asked the court to allow an abortion. This I agree with whole heartedly.

Then there is the issue of should the metally retarded be allowed to have children. First, no one has defined mental retardation. Are we talking slightly Forrest Gump retarded or severe retardation as in this case or somewhere in between?

I think if a person can function in society there should be no limits placed on having children. Otherwise, the guardian of that person must make the best call. I prefer the state not have that great a voice in this matter.

Boner · 05-24-2003, 12:18 AM

Rape is one of the few situations in which I accept abortion.

This is a sad, sad story.

miked10270 · 05-24-2003, 06:16 AM

Lebell hit the point. This particular story is not relevant to the question posed by Sixrate.

Rape is NOT about sex or procreation. It's about an abuse of power and an imposition of will. As such, I believe that the "Pro-Life / Pro-Choice" issues are wholly irrelevant. Also in this case, the victim had a mental age of about 4 (?) and as such is surely incapable of giving consent. In such cases abortion should be an absolute right. and where the victim is deemed incapable of expressing her wishes (just as the victim was incapable of giving or witholding consent), then the decision should naturally fall to the guardian (in this case the victim's mother) WITHOUT lawyers being retained (bet they were well paid) for all and sundry.

As to the question actually posed by Sixrate... WHile a part of me would actually like to see prospective parents being required to pass some form of testing to ensure that they would in fact be competent to raise a child (you have to pass a test to drive and surely raising a child is a greater responsibility), prohibiting the "disabled" from having children raises the disturbing possibility of exactly where do you draw the line? At this point you start to go down the line of "strengthening the gene pool", "Ubermensch", "putting the disabled out of their misery"...

This is surely a situation where "common sense", not abfuscated by pedantic legal argument should prevail.

Mike.

4thTimeLucky · 05-24-2003, 06:32 AM

This whole thing raises a few questions in my mind:

@ The article says the judge made his decision taking into account what he thought the lady would want. She has a mental age of 4! When do we ever allow the wishes of a 4 year old, even an articulate one, to determine law?

@ The article said the judge made his decision based on risk to the health of the mother. It also said that the doctors refused because there was no medical reason. Only one of these can be right and which one it is is of great importance. Which is it?

@ Why do people (and I'm speaking to WhoaitsZ and the like) think that male rape is a part of the punishment of prison. In the same breath you say that rape is despicable, and then you go and condone, even encourage, rape. It just makes me sick and angry.

@ Saying that "disabled" people shouldn't reproduce is just wrong. For most purposes (university, job applications, employment entitlements) I am classified as disabled - for a reading disorder - should I be allowed to have children?

WhoaitsZ · 05-24-2003, 11:29 AM

i could be wrong: but i think Sixate meant, like, disabled people like her (4yo intelligence) should not have children. not 'nobody disabled sshouldn't have children'.

i'm defending sixate.....

lebel: the pregnancy could kill the woman. i owuld care less what her mom thought: i'm worried about the victim.

and btw, i've avoided the abortion thread and don't plan to get involved with it.... i've done it for years.
my view is it is murder. but if the mother will die due to the birth, i cannot see taking life to make it.

rape, i can understand it as a neccesary evil, thouhgh i'd rather see the babe adopted off.

just my opinions, and seriously, i don't wanna debate it. so agree or not but no need to reply.

darksparkles · 05-24-2003, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
no, retarted people shouldnt be allowed to reproduce, but that should be the case only in extreme cases, like this one.

but if the baby has a good shot of coming out normal, then i would let the immediate family of the retarded person make the decision and stick me head out of there.

as usual, the_dude said it better than i could.

Lebell · 05-24-2003, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoaitsZ

lebel: the pregnancy could kill the woman. i owuld care less what her mom thought: i'm worried about the victim.

Ummm (looks at own post) I believe I said that. And why wouldn't you care about what the mother (who is the legal guardian) says?

WhoaitsZ · 05-24-2003, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
Ummm (looks at own post) I believe I said that. And why wouldn't you care about what the mother (who is the legal guardian) says?

yo, my bad. i went back and i see i misread. all apologiezes.

manalone · 05-25-2003, 03:57 AM

This is pretty clear cut, I mean even if it were not rape per se.
a person with a mental age of four is materially incapable of granting consent.

As an added factor, the health risk would close the deal on abortion as the correct route.

As for the side question of mentally handicapped people and reproduction, no person with a mental age estimated to be below the age of consent should be able to give such consent. That creates the status of a statutory rape for all intercourse between such persons.

As for abortions, well, I don't see any difference with normal people, except that the person making the choice should be the mentally-complete parent / guardian.

05-23-2003, 05:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
viveleroi0 Psycho Location: Oregon	I agree... you know it sounds like the right thing to do but it looks and feels so shitty to read... this kid may have had a possible wonderful future but the odds of that appear so slim... the shitty thing is, is that no matter how slim those odds are still there. __________________ "It's not that I don't understand, it's that I don't care" - Homer Simpson

05-23-2003, 08:10 PM	#8 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	no, retarted people shouldnt be allowed to reproduce, but that should be the case only in extreme cases, like this one. but if the baby has a good shot of coming out normal, then i would let the immediate family of the retarded person make the decision and stick me head out of there. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

05-23-2003, 10:48 PM	#12 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	There is the issue of the story and the issue Sixate raises. They are not the same. In the story, the issue is that a mentally retarded woman was raped and the pregnancy is life threatening. Her guardian (her mother) asked the court to allow an abortion. This I agree with whole heartedly. Then there is the issue of should the metally retarded be allowed to have children. First, no one has defined mental retardation. Are we talking slightly Forrest Gump retarded or severe retardation as in this case or somewhere in between? I think if a person can function in society there should be no limits placed on having children. Otherwise, the guardian of that person must make the best call. I prefer the state not have that great a voice in this matter. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

05-24-2003, 06:32 AM	#15 (permalink)
4thTimeLucky Psycho Location: 4th has left the building - goodbye folks	This whole thing raises a few questions in my mind: @ The article says the judge made his decision taking into account what he thought the lady would want. She has a mental age of 4! When do we ever allow the wishes of a 4 year old, even an articulate one, to determine law? @ The article said the judge made his decision based on risk to the health of the mother. It also said that the doctors refused because there was no medical reason. Only one of these can be right and which one it is is of great importance. Which is it? @ Why do people (and I'm speaking to WhoaitsZ and the like) think that male rape is a part of the punishment of prison. In the same breath you say that rape is despicable, and then you go and condone, even encourage, rape. It just makes me sick and angry. @ Saying that "disabled" people shouldn't reproduce is just wrong. For most purposes (university, job applications, employment entitlements) I am classified as disabled - for a reading disorder - should I be allowed to have children? __________________ I've been 4thTimeLucky, you've been great. Goodnight and God bless! Last edited by 4thTimeLucky; 05-24-2003 at 09:20 AM..

05-25-2003, 03:57 AM	#20 (permalink)
manalone Once upon a time...	This is pretty clear cut, I mean even if it were not rape per se. a person with a mental age of four is materially incapable of granting consent. As an added factor, the health risk would close the deal on abortion as the correct route. As for the side question of mentally handicapped people and reproduction, no person with a mental age estimated to be below the age of consent should be able to give such consent. That creates the status of a statutory rape for all intercourse between such persons. As for abortions, well, I don't see any difference with normal people, except that the person making the choice should be the mentally-complete parent / guardian. __________________ -- Man Alone ======= Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure. Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.

05-23-2003, 05:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
gov135 Junkie Location: Midwest	I actually agree with Sixate. Time to check the temperature in hell. Even if you would say, "this baby could be put into the adoption system," you have to admit that you would be wary adopting a baby whose mother is disabled. That may be a little mean, but if you are adopting, you want to know the lineage your kid comes from. Too many children are not wanted, loved, or provided for. This was the correct move.

05-23-2003, 05:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	sixate: we better be ready. our agreeing obviously is a sign Jesus is coming back. that case........ how in the hell can someone do such a thing? i hope that guy lives a looooooooooooonnnnnnngggggg multiple raped life as the official ass bang bitch of the prison. since she has the mental ability of a 4 year old with serious medical risk, i think the judge made the correct call. god have mercy on her.

05-23-2003, 06:37 PM	#6 (permalink)
gibber71 Loser	What a fucked story. Is everyone forgetting that she was probably raped as stated. For fuck sakes. She has the mentality of a four year old. Does Florida have the death penalty. Oh, I'm sorry,..the guy raped her,..he didn't kill her. Smoke on that for a while.

05-23-2003, 08:14 PM	#9 (permalink)
nine Crazy Location: Doesn't matter - you wouldn't want to be here	Without getting emotional about the obsolute horror this lady went through and the fact that we'll never know if she mentally recovers There are three points 1) She has the mental age of a 4yo. If it were me, I'd like to think that my mother would have the whereabouts to terminate my pregnancy if I were 4yo. 2) She is in physical danger herself if she continues the pregnancy 3) She was raped! - it simply was not meant to be. Please don't contrast this statement with an unwanted pregnancy - it is not the same. As to some of you guys taking this story and making the point about disabled people not being allowed to have children - well, thank god you don't get to make that decision.

05-23-2003, 08:15 PM	#10 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	Definatly the right call to abort, but I would like to add my agreement with Z....One would have to fucked up to rape someone, but truly fucked up (not to mention unbelievablely horny) to take advantage of a mentaly retarded woman...almost as bad as raping the 4 year old she has the capacity of....

05-23-2003, 08:57 PM	#11 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	It's pretty shitty for Jeb Bush to be scoring political points like this. As to the evil scum that raped her, I declare that he be executed by scaphismus.

05-24-2003, 12:18 AM	#13 (permalink)
Boner Insane Location: Plugged In	Rape is one of the few situations in which I accept abortion. This is a sad, sad story.

05-24-2003, 06:16 AM	#14 (permalink)
miked10270 Banned Location: Scotland	Lebell hit the point. This particular story is not relevant to the question posed by Sixrate. Rape is NOT about sex or procreation. It's about an abuse of power and an imposition of will. As such, I believe that the "Pro-Life / Pro-Choice" issues are wholly irrelevant. Also in this case, the victim had a mental age of about 4 (?) and as such is surely incapable of giving consent. In such cases abortion should be an absolute right. and where the victim is deemed incapable of expressing her wishes (just as the victim was incapable of giving or witholding consent), then the decision should naturally fall to the guardian (in this case the victim's mother) WITHOUT lawyers being retained (bet they were well paid) for all and sundry. As to the question actually posed by Sixrate... WHile a part of me would actually like to see prospective parents being required to pass some form of testing to ensure that they would in fact be competent to raise a child (you have to pass a test to drive and surely raising a child is a greater responsibility), prohibiting the "disabled" from having children raises the disturbing possibility of exactly where do you draw the line? At this point you start to go down the line of "strengthening the gene pool", "Ubermensch", "putting the disabled out of their misery"... This is surely a situation where "common sense", not abfuscated by pedantic legal argument should prevail. Mike.

05-24-2003, 11:29 AM	#16 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	i could be wrong: but i think Sixate meant, like, disabled people like her (4yo intelligence) should not have children. not 'nobody disabled sshouldn't have children'. i'm defending sixate..... lebel: the pregnancy could kill the woman. i owuld care less what her mom thought: i'm worried about the victim. and btw, i've avoided the abortion thread and don't plan to get involved with it.... i've done it for years. my view is it is murder. but if the mother will die due to the birth, i cannot see taking life to make it. rape, i can understand it as a neccesary evil, thouhgh i'd rather see the babe adopted off. just my opinions, and seriously, i don't wanna debate it. so agree or not but no need to reply.