Police Chases - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

f6twister · 12-23-2004, 03:39 PM

I did search but didn't see it, so.....

Quote:

High-speed, 3-county chase ends in fatal crash

Posted: Dec. 22, 2004 Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal

A high-speed chase that resulted in a Whitefish Bay man's death Wednesday is raising questions about police pursuits and whether the danger is worth the risk posed to the public and police officers.

It appears though, that the 24-year-old Random Lake woman who led police on the chase across three counties Wednesday would attempt to flee at any cost. Lara M. Strack was wanted in a string of check forgeries and told her mother that she would kill herself before she'd go to prison, her ex-husband says.

Authorities say Strack was being chased after trying to cash a stolen check at a Saukville bank on Wednesday. The chase reached speeds of more than 100 mph, and some of the officers involved from a number of jurisdictions in Milwaukee, Ozaukee and Washington counties said they knew nothing about her suspected crime, only that she was trying desperately to flee.

Milwaukee County Sheriff David A. Clarke Jr. said it is legitimate to question high-speed chase policies and it is reasonable for the public to expect answers about what happened and why, especially given the death of an innocent bystander.

Police say Benjamin Fagan, 80, of Whitefish Bay was killed when the 2001 Hyundai Santa Fe driven by Strack slammed into the car he was driving in the intersection of Port Washington Road and Hampton Ave.

When asked if a chase should have ensued over a stolen check, Clarke said: "It's a legitimate question. These things are highly dangerous. In hindsight I would say, no."

Warrants had also been recently issued for Strack's arrest in Washington and Sheboygan counties on allegations related to a series of other check forgeries.

Clarke said the exact locations of squad cars from a number of jurisdictions at the time of the crash remain under investigation.

The entire matter will be reviewed by the district attorney's office, Clarke said.

Regis Welsh, who lived next door to Fagan, said Fagan was "friendly and outgoing."

Welsh said Fagan and his wife, Bernice, had been married for about 55 years and that the couple "did everything together. She was his world."

Ben and Bernice Fagan celebrated Hanukkah last week, Welsh said.

"God gave him one more holiday," Welsh said.

Check leads to police call
Wednesday's chase began about 9:55 a.m. at Grafton State Bank in Saukville, when a woman drove up to the bank's drive-through lanes and tried to cash a $350 check from a church, said Patricia Liedtke, a bank vice president.

Because the woman was not a Grafton State Bank customer, the teller asked to see her identification, which she gave the teller, Liedtke said.

"We also called the bank on which the check was drawn to see if it was good," Liedtke said. "When we called that bank, they identified the check and said that we should phone the police."

Bank staff tried to keep the woman at the bank, but she left. Bank workers provided police with the license plate number of the vehicle.

About that time, a Saukville police officer arrived at the bank, spotted the vehicle and began following it. A chase ensued, reaching speeds of more than 100 mph, into Washington County, said Saukville Police Chief William D. Meloy. "At that point," Meloy said, "I told him to break off the chase."

Meloy said the officer had already begun to slow down.

"We hoped that if we backed off a bit, she might slow down. We definitely didn't want her to increase her speed," Meloy said.

A short time later, an Ozaukee County sheriff's deputy spotted the vehicle but lost it again when it turned south into Cedarburg.

At 10:12 a.m., Cedarburg police spotted the vehicle, but lost sight of it in congested downtown Cedarburg traffic, said Cedarburg Police Chief Tom Frank.

A Cedarburg police officer spotted the vehicle again a short time later.

When a Cedarburg police officer attempted to stop the vehicle, Strack sped south into Mequon. Police pursued her, reaching speeds of 60 to 65 mph, Frank said.

Mequon police attempted to slow down the SUV by placing a tack strip across the road. But the driver avoided the device and continued with a Cedarburg police squad in pursuit.

Speeds reached more than 90 mph through the relatively rural area, Frank said.

"It was the officer's opinion that because traffic was light and there were few crossroads that he would continue the chase," Frank said.

Frank said officers involved in high speed chases "have to continually evaluate road conditions, traffic, how the person is operating her vehicle, if he feels the pursuit has become too dangerous and what the person is being pursued for."

Frank and Mequon Police Sgt. Dan Buntrock said their officers did not know during their part of the pursuit why the woman was wanted.

Pursuing officers then lost the vehicle. "The suspect drove in such a manner that the officer couldn't maintain contact," Frank said. "He was quite a ways behind her at that point."

Mequon police spotted the vehicle in an industrial area on the city's east side but gave up the pursuit when it turned onto I-43 and headed south to Milwaukee County.

The vehicle exited the freeway at Silver Spring Road in Glendale and then turned south on Port Washington Road.

Ozaukee County sheriff's Lt. David Guss said a sheriff's deputy spotted the vehicle shortly before it entered I-43 and the deputy followed Strack into Milwaukee County while maintaining a distance of two-tenths of a mile.

Near Good Hope Road, Glendale police took up the lead position in the pursuit, with the Ozaukee sheriff's squad following some distance behind, Guss said.

Clarke said the woman was traveling at speeds in excess of 100 mph on the freeway and around traffic.

"This thing was happening rapidly," Clarke said. Officers involved in chases face a "tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving situation on whether the pursuit should continue or stop."

"We (law enforcement) didn't start the pursuit. She did," Clarke added.

Strack was transported by Flight for Life to Froedtert Hospital for treatment of non-life threatening injuries, the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Department said. She was treated at the emergency room but was never admitted to the hospital and is in custody, the department said.

Other charges
Strack has been charged in Sheboygan County with two felony counts of forgery and one of false representation. A warrant was issued for her arrest earlier this month after she failed to appear in court in connection with those charges.

Strack is charged with withdrawing $6,875 from a savings account of a Random Lake church between Sept. 30 and Oct. 15 using letters she signed with the name of her mother, who is the church's treasurer.

She faces another forgery charge in Washington County. A criminal complaint alleges that Strack earlier this month cashed a check at a West Bend bank on her father's account for $1,750 made out to her ex-husband and on which she had forged her father's name.

Strack's former father-in-law, Kenneth Strack Sr. of Random Lake, said he recognized his daughter-in-law's vehicle when he saw the chase on television.

"I knew it was her by the car and the description - 24 years old, from Random Lake," Strack said.

Kenneth Strack Jr. said he could only guess why his ex-wife led police on a high-speed chase. "All I know is that she told her mother she'd kill herself before she'd ever go to prison," Strack Jr. said.

Strack said he met Lara when the two attended Random Lake High School. The couple divorced in June after 1 1/2 years of marriage.

How do you feel about police pursuits? I put the entire blame for this death on her hands. The law says when a cop drives behind you with his lights and siren going, you stop. The law also says obey the speed limit, stop at red lights and don't cash checks not issued to you.

cyrnel · 12-23-2004, 03:53 PM

I agree to an extent, but think there's a cowboy mentality behind many of these chases. If it isn't necessary, it isn't necessary. The number of separate pursuits in the article is somewhat nuts. Seems like good motivation to improve communications between departments. Put out a do-not pursue & pick her up at home.

"We didn't start the pursuit, she did."

"That word. I don't think it means what you think it means!"
-I.Montoya

GetRdone · 12-23-2004, 04:17 PM

The person killed in the accident was one of my neighbors. His name was fagan i think. too bad really....i saw the accident scene, it looked horrible.

blitz.fenix · 12-23-2004, 04:34 PM

I like the system Toronto has in place. If the police deem the chase to be too dangerous and there is an excess in speeds then they will call it off after a short while. Too many pedestrian and innocent fatalities occur in reckless police pursuits.

cyrnel · 12-23-2004, 04:42 PM

Sorry to hear that GetRdone.

goddfather40 · 12-23-2004, 05:08 PM

This debate has been raging for years here in Southern California. Many due to many high profile cases where innocent people have been killed. Perhaps the most notorious of these cases was a border patrol chase in Temecula which resulted in the deaths of 5 pedestrians near a high school in 1991. The Border Patrol was chasing a vehicle which busted through a Border checkpoint while carrying illegal immigrants. The Border Patrol was sued in federal court and was found 25% responsible for the deaths. In that case, the law enforcement should have pulled off at least the land based portion of the chase when it realized it was going to go through a school zone as school was starting.

Nowadays, the chase policies vary widely from department to department. Some departments pull off the ground based units if the driver is driving crazily. Some departments still use the "pit manuver" against people they're chasing. The pit manuver is where a cop car rams one of the rear quarter panels to try to get the car to spin out.

I think that chases should be evaluated on a case by case basis. It's hard to have an all encompassing guideline for this.

Vincentt · 12-23-2004, 09:33 PM

I am going to agree with goddfather40, you cannot make one guideline for this.

She should be charged with murder.

flat5 · 12-25-2004, 04:53 AM

Too bad they did not have a helicopter to follow her.

f6twister · 12-26-2004, 11:33 PM

Milwaukee County Sheriff used to have one but it was the victim of budget cuts. There was apparently a news helicoptor filming as I saw the copter view of the crash on TV but local law enforcement agencies do not use the media to track chases.

Her father has been on the news ranting about how this guys death is all law enforcements fault. He said his daughter isn't a criminal, she is just sick. I'm not sure what she has been convicted of up till now but she already had felony charges pending (with an outstanding arrest warrant) and now it appears she was charged with two more resulting from the pursuit & crash. I'll need to get more on that.

water_boy1999 · 12-27-2004, 11:31 AM

This is a sad case really. I do think she is guilty of this guys murder. He would have never been killed if she hadn't took off and ran. If you have a cop car behind you and it's lights are on, you HAVE to pull over. Instead of chasing these criminals, they should wait just a few minutes before taking the car out by any means necessary. Instead of speeding through several counties and risking the lives of hundreds, police should shoot out the tires or perform one of these "pit manuevers" within minutes of the car chase start.

What if there was a gun that shoots a GPS radar bullet into a car? The car chase would start, police would tag the car with this bullet, the police would call the chase off and a helicopter would be dispatched to follow the GPS signal. Hmmm.....

kutulu · 12-27-2004, 11:44 AM

That is fucked up. Car chases should only ensue when there is a highly dangerous fugitive. Catching a non-violent criminal is not worth putting the public at risk. I hope the family wins big bucks from the department.

The Prophet · 12-27-2004, 11:49 AM

How the hell do the police know who they are chasing until they are stopped or later caught? And how can they prove who was driving if they don't apprehend them? If they make it so cops can't chase criminals what is to stop them all from just driving away?

Chase them down, I say. I also feel it should be a mandatory three years in the slam for attempting to flee, on top, and irregardless of, whatever other sentences they receive.

kutulu · 12-27-2004, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prophet

How the hell do the police know who they are chasing until they are stopped or later caught? And how can they prove who was driving if they don't apprehend them? If they make it so cops can't chase criminals what is to stop them all from just driving away?

Chase them down, I say. I also feel it should be a mandatory three years in the slam for attempting to flee, on top, and irregardless of, whatever other sentences they receive.

Yes, how do you know who they are after? We've seen time after time that people will go on high speed chases over a fucking warrant for a parking ticket that might cost them a night in jail. Consider the amount of people that will run and the likelyhood that it is actually a dangerous criminal that represents more of a threat to society than a 100mph+ car chase. The public is safer with the bad guys getting away for a day or two while the cops search for the offender.

Would you be singing the same tough tune if a family member got killed because of a chase started over a stolen vehicle?

Manditory minimum sentances are never the answer. Those systems end up with a guy having a bunch of child porn images getting multiple life sentances while an actual child molester gets a few years.

cyrnel · 12-27-2004, 12:09 PM

Prophet,

It's known as "The Motorola".

There's no universal answer and there are times pursuit is necessary, but this case could have been avoided with simple communication. They knew who she was, where she lived, and she had shown no imminent danger to herself or others. The better approach would have been to pick her up at home. It would eliminate the adrenaline response that has been proven to compromise judgement of both average citizens and trained officers.

As already mentioned, these unfortunate endings have already caused policy change at many police departments around the country. I suppose this is just another sad example that will help tune the system.

To be sure, I'm not defending her actions in any way.

The Prophet · 12-28-2004, 04:14 AM

Quote:

. . . they knew nothing about her suspected crime, only that she was trying desperately to flee.

There a million ways to lose a loved one. I would think none are any less tragic or heart-wrenching than the next.

Quote:

A chase ensued, reaching speeds of more than 100 mph, into Washington County, said Saukville Police Chief William D. Meloy. "At that point," Meloy said, "I told him to break off the chase."

Meloy said the officer had already begun to slow down.

"We hoped that if we backed off a bit, she might slow down. We definitely didn't want her to increase her speed," Meloy said.

It appears the bitch was on a suicide run. According to the article the cops pulled off the chase, or refused to pursue, on four or five different occasions and she continued driving at high speeds. The fact that cops were on her ass, trying to stop her, takes absolutely none of the blame from her. She was the one speeding, she was the one that committed the crimes, and she was the one that struck and killed the old man.

Bill O'Rights · 12-28-2004, 05:43 AM

Nope. The chase begins and ends with the actions of the perpetrator. She chose to make a run for it. She chose to continue the chase, by continuing to run. She could've deescalated the situation at any time, by simply pulling over. She, and only she is responsible for any damage, death, or injury that results from the chase. I pay the police to enforce the law. If that means they have to chase down the occasional fleeing felon....then so be it. All, and I do mean all, liability from any damages that result from such chases need to rest soley on perpetrator.
And don't give me any crap about shooting out the tires. It's neither practical, nor feasable. Hollywood bears little resemblance to real life.

The_wall · 12-28-2004, 08:33 AM

this is off topic but when I was 9 r 10 years old I was downstairs by myself late at night (the rest of my family was upstairs in bed) and a guy who was being chased by the cops for drugs or something ended up not taking a turn and drove straight into my mothers car. He then got out of his car and tried to flee into the woods surrounding my house, but we have lots of thick brush and he wasn't able to get far before the cops nabbed him. At 10 years old this scared the shiat out of me.

kutulu · 12-28-2004, 08:34 AM

Sorry but that idealistic BS about how she is responsible doesn't cut it for the family of an innocent that gets killed because of a macho Hollywood car chase over check fraud.

If you are expecting the criminal to think with a level head you're going to have problems.

f6twister · 12-28-2004, 08:55 AM

Just an update to the story:

From: http://www.jsonline.com/news/ozwash/dec04/287495.asp

Quote:

Felony Charges Filed in Fatal Police Chase
Posted: Dec. 26, 2004

Two felony charges were filed Sunday accusing a 24-year-old Random Lake woman of leading police on a wild car chase in Milwaukee, Washington and Ozaukee counties that ended in a crash that killed an 80-year-old Whitefish Bay man.

Lara M. Strack was charged with second-degree reckless homicide and with fleeing the scene of a crime in the wreck in Glendale that killed Benjamin Fagan. Strack was scheduled to make her initial appearance in a Milwaukee County court today.

Fagan was struck in the Buick he was driving Wednesday at N. Port Washington Road and Hampton Ave. after Strack bolted through a red light, authorities say. The combined charges against Strack could net her more than 28 years' imprisonment and more than $110,000 in fines.

The complaint describes a pursuit at speeds exceeding 100 mph that wended its way in and out of traffic, and the various attempts by police along the way to slow or stop Strack, who came under scrutiny after an attempt to pass a forged check at the Grafton State Bank in Saukville.

At one point in the chase, according to the complaint, a Glendale police officer had to jump over a guardrail to avoid being struck on I-43 as he was placing "stop sticks," one of which punctured and deflated the tire of the Hyundai Santa Fe driven by Strack. After the chase, heads of the various police agencies involved said they were reviewing their procedures on pursuing suspects traveling at dangerously high rates of speed.

According to the complaint, Strack spoke to police after being treated at Froedtert Memorial Lutheran Hospital. She reported feeling dizzy during the pursuit and said she fled in the first place because she "did not want to go back to jail," the complaint says.

Strack also is charged in Sheboygan County with two felony counts of forgery and one of false representation.

A warrant was issued for her arrest earlier this month after she failed to appear in court in connection with those charges. Strack is charged with withdrawing $6,875 from a savings account of a Random Lake church between Sept. 30 and Oct. 15 using letters she signed with the name of her mother, the church's treasurer.

Bill O'Rights · 12-28-2004, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Sorry but that idealistic BS about how she is responsible doesn't cut it for the family of an innocent that gets killed because of a macho Hollywood car chase over check fraud.

If you are expecting the criminal to think with a level head you're going to have problems.

I guess I just don't see how it's idealistic to expect someone to be held accountable for their own actions. She ran, she was pursued (as is to be expected), she crashed into, and killed, a bystander. She...is...at...fault. Period. The only BS involved here is that the police now have to second guess whether they should do the job that they are paid to do.

kutulu · 12-28-2004, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

The only BS involved here is that the police now have to second guess whether they should do the job that they are paid to do.

Please. Since when does 'doing their job' include putting the public at risk over check fraud?

Quote:

Wednesday's chase began about 9:55 a.m. at Grafton State Bank in Saukville, when a woman drove up to the bank's drive-through lanes and tried to cash a $350 check from a church, said Patricia Liedtke, a bank vice president.

Because the woman was not a Grafton State Bank customer, the teller asked to see her identification, which she gave the teller, Liedtke said.

"We also called the bank on which the check was drawn to see if it was good," Liedtke said. "When we called that bank, they identified the check and said that we should phone the police."

Bank staff tried to keep the woman at the bank, but she left. Bank workers provided police with the license plate number of the vehicle.

About that time, a Saukville police officer arrived at the bank, spotted the vehicle and began following it. A chase ensued, reaching speeds of more than 100 mph, into Washington County, said Saukville Police Chief William D. Meloy. "At that point," Meloy said, "I told him to break off the chase."

They knew who she was (lol, they even had her ID!!. She was not some serial killer, terrorist, suspected murderer, or even a drug dealer. She was some chick who steals checks and cashes them.

Let's see:

Innocent person dead vs. check fraud chick walking the streets for another few hours or even days.

Which do you prefer? Given all of the information that the cops collected and the fact that this lady was driving like a crazy bitch from hell why was it necessary to continue the chase?

Of course she is to blame but the cops don't come out smelling like roses. I'd expect a multi-million dollar settlement if I was her family. Additionally, the cops that ran the chase should be fired immediately.

pocon1 · 12-28-2004, 10:27 AM

I live near Washington DC and the cops are not allowed to chase anybody. Needless to say, very few criminals are caught(this is only part of the problem). Kids in stolen vehicles will pull up next to officers in some neighborhoods, flip off the officer or throw something at him, and drive away through red lights. The cops cannot do anything. The kiddie car thieves in some neighborhoods are ridiculous and there is a news story about once a month on them. 11 and 12 year olds steal cars in the district.

StephenSa · 12-28-2004, 10:42 AM

Clearly the woman should be charged with the victims death as it was her actions that caused his demise and in fact her vehicle that crashed into the victim. Had she been driving recklessly without being chased she would be charged with reckless homicide so of course she should rot in jail regardless of police involvement. The fact she had such clear disregard for the law proven by her criminal activities and running from the authorities only makes it more imperative to remove this woman from polite society. As for police chases and compability for me there is no clear answer. The police must be able to use all their abilities and tools at their disposal to apprehend criminals. The police didn't know that the suspect they pursued was "only" guilty of non violent crime, for all they knew it might be the FBI's most wanted they had in their sights. It was their duty to pursue and apprehend to the best of their ability. Of course as I said an officer must use ALL the tools in their arsenal and the best tool is their mind. I would say it is up to the individual officer to a great extent to determine the safety of continuing a pursuit that is growing more reckless. The article stated that the victim was struck in a relatively rural area and traffic was light so the officer probably made the best judgement call he could and unfortunately things went awry. Had they been in a crowded urban setting he might have dropped the pursuit. Police officers should be VERY well trained in this area and it is an issue that should be addressed regularly with officers so they are very aware of the dangers of getting caught up too intensely in a pursuit. However if we set a standard where authorities call off pursuit too easily/frequently then more people will run thinking they can get away. I believe it is near impossible to set a national standard for car chase scenarios. The best society can do is train our police officers well and treat each situation individually. Different factors will arise with each situation and it is up to those in the thick of things to make good choices. In the incident that started this thread I can't fault the police. It seems a reasonable call was made that ended in tragedy.

kutulu · 12-28-2004, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocon1

I live near Washington DC and the cops are not allowed to chase anybody. Needless to say, very few criminals are caught(this is only part of the problem). Kids in stolen vehicles will pull up next to officers in some neighborhoods, flip off the officer or throw something at him, and drive away through red lights. The cops cannot do anything. The kiddie car thieves in some neighborhoods are ridiculous and there is a news story about once a month on them. 11 and 12 year olds steal cars in the district.

Sorry but I don't even see that as an attempt to make an arguement.

By the way, how many innocent people have been killed in uncessesary police chases in the DC area?

I'm just sick of people standing by cops who are untrained or incapable of rational thought. I see it in the Phoenix area all the time. There have been two big incidents recently here. Dan Lovelace, a Scottsdale or maybe Chandler cop, killed a woman over a forged perscription. She initially backed into his bike, then started to drive away (going away from the cop). He shot her in the back of the head as she was driving away. The county attorney filed murder charges and he walked. Let's see unarmed suspect, driving away from him. Somehow the jury saw that as him fearing for his life, whatever.

In Mesa or Chandler there was an incident where a kid (16 and skinny) was in his kitchen with a knife. The family was freaked so they called the cops. They show up and kill him. Most people said "well he shouldn't have been holding a knife, do you expect the cops to risk their lives?" Well, it is their job, they are trained to disarm people holding knives. Fuck, my 18 yr brother (3rd degree black belt) has martial arts training and could have disarmed him with little harm to either one and he doesn't wear a vest! A cop wearing riot gear could have safely disarmed him. Instead they shoot first and ask questions later.

kutulu · 12-28-2004, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenSa

The article stated that the victim was struck in a relatively rural area and traffic was light so the officer probably made the best judgement call he could and unfortunately things went awry. Had they been in a crowded urban setting he might have dropped the pursuit.

They went through three different counties. It started in a city and you don't hit three counties without going through other cities.

Quote:

The chase reached speeds of more than 100 mph, and some of the officers involved from a number of jurisdictions in Milwaukee, Ozaukee and Washington counties said they knew nothing about her suspected crime, only that she was trying desperately to flee.

The officers that became involved knew nothing about it. However, the original call was for check fraud and they had the license plate of the vehicle, AND the suspect's STATE ISSUED ID. You don't see a total communication breakdown?

f6twister · 12-28-2004, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Well, it is their job, they are trained to disarm people holding knives. Fuck, my 18 yr brother (3rd degree black belt) has martial arts training and could have disarmed him with little harm to either one and he doesn't wear a vest! A cop wearing riot gear could have safely disarmed him. Instead they shoot first and ask questions later.

I'm not sure what type of training cops where you are receive but no cop here is "trained" to put themselves at risk of getting stabbed or slashed in the process of taking a knife out of someones hand. Just the other night there was a guy who held police at bay carrying a sword and a battle axe. Should they have used their "training" to simply disarm him or should they have called a 3rd degree black belt to do the job? No, I guess sending the black belt in would be a bad idea. If he or someone else got hurt, then they would sue the police for not protecting them also.

raeanna74 · 12-28-2004, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

By the way, how many innocent people have been killed in uncessesary police chases in the DC area?

So do you know how many people have been killed or injured in the theft of a car or other crime because the criminal is still on the streets?? There's no way to measure the damage caused by these people who are allowed to go on with their crimes.

I personally would prefer being injured in a car crash if it meant that the criminal was caught. I'm not saying I'd want to be killed but it happens. It sounds like it could very well have happened had the officers continued to pursue or not since she continued to speed no matter what.

SHE was responsible for all that happened. The police are constantly forced to make judgement calls and to penalize them for something that the CRIMINAL caused is unfair and debilitating. Let them do their job. Find other ways of pursuing perhaps but don't hobble their efforts.

I love the idea of a GPS system.

One other advantage of the officers continuing in a pursuit is that the sirens can warn other drivers on the road that they need to get out of the way. I think part of the reason there may be more accidents is because people have begun to ignore those sirens and seem to think that where they themselves are going is more important then the police. If people would get off the road at the sound of a siren there may not be as many accidents.

Bill O'Rights · 12-28-2004, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

One other advantage of the officers continuing in a pursuit is that the sirens can warn other drivers on the road that they need to get out of the way. I think part of the reason there may be more accidents is because people have begun to ignore those sirens and seem to think that where they themselves are going is more important then the police. If people would get off the road at the sound of a siren there may not be as many accidents.

Agreed. And I'm glad to see that it's not just an "Omaha" problem. I've seen people impede all types of emergency vehicles displaying lights and sirens. However...part of the problem (in addition to attitude) is the fact that cars are significantly more "soundproof" than they used to be. They actually might not hear the siren. Or...they might have become innoculated to the sound, because it's used in so many car dealer radio spots. Or...the volume in their "boomcar" is set to puree. Lots of possibilities, but attitude, I believe, leads the pack.

water_boy1999 · 12-28-2004, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

I love the idea of a GPS system.

Someone finally noticed??? lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Yes, how do you know who they are after? We've seen time after time that people will go on high speed chases over a fucking warrant for a parking ticket that might cost them a night in jail. Consider the amount of people that will run and the likelyhood that it is actually a dangerous criminal that represents more of a threat to society than a 100mph+ car chase. The public is safer with the bad guys getting away for a day or two while the cops search for the offender.

Would you be singing the same tough tune if a family member got killed because of a chase started over a stolen vehicle?

Manditory minimum sentances are never the answer. Those systems end up with a guy having a bunch of child porn images getting multiple life sentances while an actual child molester gets a few years.

But how many times has a child molester, murderer, rapist gotten away because laws kept cops from apprehending the criminal? Reanna nailed it on the head with:

Quote:

There's no way to measure the damage caused by these people who are allowed to go on with their crimes.

It is truly unfortunate that some innocent people die in the process of Law Enforcement doing their job. If one of my family members was killed as a result of the car chase, but it nabbed a criminal at the same time, I would be very upset yet still have respect for the police doing their job. I am not going to criminalize the police because bad things DO happen when dealing with bad people. It's life.

noodles · 12-28-2004, 12:59 PM

i agree with bill.

if police ever draw out guidelines to define when someone needs to break off a chase, people will know exactly what they need to do to shake their chasers. if the law defines that the chase needs to stop after x miles, someone will make sure they do their best to run for x miles. if the chase needs to be broken because it is unsafe, a criminal is going to be as dangerous to others with their driving as possible. of course, not all will do this crap, but the real criminals who will be running will pull this stuff. either way, the danger is high and the blame for this should be placed almost entirely on the criminal (unless there was a police screw up).

kutulu · 12-28-2004, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f6twister

I'm not sure what type of training cops where you are receive but no cop here is "trained" to put themselves at risk of getting stabbed or slashed in the process of taking a knife out of someones hand. Just the other night there was a guy who held police at bay carrying a sword and a battle axe.

So police officers recieve no self defense training at all? I guess they just walk in to the academy, learn to shoot and graduate. It was a fucking kitchen knife, not a sword or a battle axe. Compare apples to apples. Contrary to popular belief there is protection from the dreaded kitchen knife.

Sirens are almost completely ineffective. Even without a blasting radio you can barely hear them until they are up your ass. They sure didn't help in this case.

All of you are talking around what I've said. Unless you didn't see what I wrote in my first post or it wasn't clear enough I only think a high speed pursuit is reasonable when the suspect is a known violent criminal. The article clearly states that the suspect was wanted for questioning/arrest for check fraud. I REPEAT, the responding officer KNEW that the woman was suspected of CHECK FRAUD, nothing more. There was no reason to assume the woman was a murdering rapist on a mission to poison the city's water supply. If your response is that she could have been a murdering rapist on a mission to poison the city's water supply, then maybe all traffic stops should now include a full body cavity search because you never know when you might stumble on a murdering rapist on a mission to poison the city's water supply.

Also, the bank checked her ID and got her license plate. The article doesn't mention it being a stolen vehicle or that it was a fake ID, therefore, it is reasonable to assume that they were both valid. Furthermore, the article clearly states that the officer was TOLD TO END THE CHASE.

This chase went through three counties covering both urban and rural areas. If they HAD to catch the evil check fraud lady before she unleashes her wrath on the county they could have put their own saftey at risk instead of risking a civilian life. Is it impossible to run the car off the road? Try a PIT manuver, etc? No, but that would put their life at risk instead of the public. It's not as if they get paid to defend us against criminals. Oh wait, they do.

dksuddeth · 12-28-2004, 01:30 PM

the more that police departments are faced with having to stop dangerous chases, the more dangerous it becomes for citizens on the street. Soon, all a person will have to do to avoid a pursuit is just drive recklessly. Talk about holding police hostage on the street. Why don't we just install cameras everywhere, photograph all actions, and dispatch police to the suspects home after we call to determine he/she is there?

It's simple really, you run from the cops you become responsible for anything that happens. This woman should be charged with capital murder with depraved indifference to human life and should be either executed or serve life with no possibility of parole.

Cynthetiq · 12-28-2004, 01:34 PM

those that also talk about the soundproofing of cars...

don't forget that townships have also created noise ordinences to keep the levels of noise down, this impacts planes, EMS, and police cars.

dksuddeth · 12-28-2004, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

This chase went through three counties covering both urban and rural areas. If they HAD to catch the evil check fraud lady before she unleashes her wrath on the county they could have put their own saftey at risk instead of risking a civilian life. Is it impossible to run the car off the road? Try a PIT manuver, etc? No, but that would put their life at risk instead of the public. It's not as if they get paid to defend us against criminals. Oh wait, they do.

Hey Jeff Gordon, you think you're capable of performing a PIT manuever at 100+ miles an hour? It's bad enough for most people just to drive that speed and STILL make the continual effort to be somewhat aware of the innocents around you, unlike the homicidal maniac who is now driving around with NO, I repeat that, NO value on anyone elses life.

kutulu · 12-28-2004, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

Hey Jeff Gordon, you think you're capable of performing a PIT manuever at 100+ miles an hour? It's bad enough for most people just to drive that speed and STILL make the continual effort to be somewhat aware of the innocents around you, unlike the homicidal maniac who is now driving around with NO, I repeat that, NO value on anyone elses life.

I'm not the cop, am I? Do cops get training in stopping vehicles during high speed pursuits? Shouln't they?

dksuddeth · 12-28-2004, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

I'm not the cop, am I? Do cops get training in stopping vehicles during high speed pursuits? Shouln't they?

yes, they get training...... on an almost empty parking lot. But at speeds of 100 mph, conditions change so rapidly that by the time they MAY decide to do the PIT, then catch up to the suspect, conditions will have changed.

We all hate the fact that innocents can and do get hurt and its especially abhorrent when its done because somebody decided to try their luck in outrunning police pursuit but thats NOT the policemans fault....the responsibility lies squarely with the idiot that decided he cared more about escaping responsibility for a criminal act than they did for the innocent lives around them.

What SHOULD be done to these idiots that end up hurting or killing someone because they decided to run is an extremely elaborate ruse should be played upon them where they are told that a dear loved one of theirs was killed by another idiot trying to outrun the police, then lets see how they feel.

Craven Morehead · 12-28-2004, 03:09 PM

Its been nearly three years since the daughter of one of my best friends was killed as a result of a police chase. The Chico CA police were chasing a stolen SUV. It was stolen by the 15 year old daughter of the owner. She was running away. She paniced, ran a stop sign and killed a young girl.

What would have happened had the police not purused her? Very little, I'm afraid.

I urge you to read the following website and if so moved, add your support.
http://www.kristieslaw.org/

kutulu · 12-28-2004, 03:29 PM

Apparently the only people that are for reform are those that have had someone taken from you by untrained cops. There's a lot of talk about how "oh, I'd be upset but it would bring me closure to know that they got a dangerous person off the streets" That's BS. If you lost someone because of some car chase that resulted from a person running from some stupid misdemeanor warrant or non-violent criminal or even some cop who couldn't tell the victim from the suspect, I'm sure most would sing a different tune.

The_wall · 12-28-2004, 03:41 PM

Well both sides have a pretty good argument if you ask me. I do find myself thinking 'why don't the cops just stop chasing the guy" when I watch worlds scariest police chases or some other variation of the show.

dksuddeth · 12-28-2004, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craven Morehead

Its been nearly three years since the daughter of one of my best friends was killed as a result of a police chase. The Chico CA police were chasing a stolen SUV. It was stolen by the 15 year old daughter of the owner. She was running away. She paniced, ran a stop sign and killed a young girl.

What would have happened had the police not purused her? Very little, I'm afraid.

at least very little for the time being, but had the police let her go where would she be now? It's entirely possible that we would never find her again like countless other teens that run away. would she then end up dead on the streets?

12-23-2004, 05:08 PM	#6 (permalink)
goddfather40 Llama Location: Cali-for-nye-a	This debate has been raging for years here in Southern California. Many due to many high profile cases where innocent people have been killed. Perhaps the most notorious of these cases was a border patrol chase in Temecula which resulted in the deaths of 5 pedestrians near a high school in 1991. The Border Patrol was chasing a vehicle which busted through a Border checkpoint while carrying illegal immigrants. The Border Patrol was sued in federal court and was found 25% responsible for the deaths. In that case, the law enforcement should have pulled off at least the land based portion of the chase when it realized it was going to go through a school zone as school was starting. Nowadays, the chase policies vary widely from department to department. Some departments pull off the ground based units if the driver is driving crazily. Some departments still use the "pit manuver" against people they're chasing. The pit manuver is where a cop car rams one of the rear quarter panels to try to get the car to spin out. I think that chases should be evaluated on a case by case basis. It's hard to have an all encompassing guideline for this. __________________ My name is goddfather40 and I approved this message. I got ho's and I got bitches, In C++ I branch with switches -MC Plus+

12-26-2004, 11:33 PM	#9 (permalink)
f6twister Addict	Milwaukee County Sheriff used to have one but it was the victim of budget cuts. There was apparently a news helicoptor filming as I saw the copter view of the crash on TV but local law enforcement agencies do not use the media to track chases. Her father has been on the news ranting about how this guys death is all law enforcements fault. He said his daughter isn't a criminal, she is just sick. I'm not sure what she has been convicted of up till now but she already had felony charges pending (with an outstanding arrest warrant) and now it appears she was charged with two more resulting from the pursuit & crash. I'll need to get more on that. __________________ A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin

12-27-2004, 11:31 AM	#10 (permalink)
water_boy1999 Fly em straight! Location: Above and Beyond	This is a sad case really. I do think she is guilty of this guys murder. He would have never been killed if she hadn't took off and ran. If you have a cop car behind you and it's lights are on, you HAVE to pull over. Instead of chasing these criminals, they should wait just a few minutes before taking the car out by any means necessary. Instead of speeding through several counties and risking the lives of hundreds, police should shoot out the tires or perform one of these "pit manuevers" within minutes of the car chase start. What if there was a gun that shoots a GPS radar bullet into a car? The car chase would start, police would tag the car with this bullet, the police would call the chase off and a helicopter would be dispatched to follow the GPS signal. Hmmm..... __________________ Doh!!!! -Homer Simpson

12-27-2004, 11:49 AM	#12 (permalink)
The Prophet Tilted Location: Space, the final frontier.	How the hell do the police know who they are chasing until they are stopped or later caught? And how can they prove who was driving if they don't apprehend them? If they make it so cops can't chase criminals what is to stop them all from just driving away? Chase them down, I say. I also feel it should be a mandatory three years in the slam for attempting to flee, on top, and irregardless of, whatever other sentences they receive. __________________ "The death-knell of the republic had rung as soon as the active power became lodged in the hands of those who sought, not to do justice to all citizens, rich and poor alike, but to stand for one special class and for its interests as opposed to the interests of others. " - Theodore Roosevelt

12-27-2004, 12:09 PM	#14 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Prophet, It's known as "The Motorola". There's no universal answer and there are times pursuit is necessary, but this case could have been avoided with simple communication. They knew who she was, where she lived, and she had shown no imminent danger to herself or others. The better approach would have been to pick her up at home. It would eliminate the adrenaline response that has been proven to compromise judgement of both average citizens and trained officers. As already mentioned, these unfortunate endings have already caused policy change at many police departments around the country. I suppose this is just another sad example that will help tune the system. To be sure, I'm not defending her actions in any way. Last edited by cyrnel; 12-27-2004 at 12:12 PM.. Reason: Responding to The Prophet

12-23-2004, 03:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	I agree to an extent, but think there's a cowboy mentality behind many of these chases. If it isn't necessary, it isn't necessary. The number of separate pursuits in the article is somewhat nuts. Seems like good motivation to improve communications between departments. Put out a do-not pursue & pick her up at home. "We didn't start the pursuit, she did." "That word. I don't think it means what you think it means!" -I.Montoya

12-23-2004, 04:17 PM	#3 (permalink)
GetRdone Psycho	The person killed in the accident was one of my neighbors. His name was fagan i think. too bad really....i saw the accident scene, it looked horrible.

12-23-2004, 04:34 PM	#4 (permalink)
blitz.fenix Insane Location: Toronto	I like the system Toronto has in place. If the police deem the chase to be too dangerous and there is an excess in speeds then they will call it off after a short while. Too many pedestrian and innocent fatalities occur in reckless police pursuits.

12-23-2004, 04:42 PM	#5 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Sorry to hear that GetRdone.

12-23-2004, 09:33 PM	#7 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	I am going to agree with goddfather40, you cannot make one guideline for this. She should be charged with murder.

12-25-2004, 04:53 AM	#8 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	Too bad they did not have a helicopter to follow her.

12-27-2004, 11:44 AM	#11 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	That is fucked up. Car chases should only ensue when there is a highly dangerous fugitive. Catching a non-violent criminal is not worth putting the public at risk. I hope the family wins big bucks from the department.

12-28-2004, 05:43 AM	#16 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Nope. The chase begins and ends with the actions of the perpetrator. She chose to make a run for it. She chose to continue the chase, by continuing to run. She could've deescalated the situation at any time, by simply pulling over. She, and only she is responsible for any damage, death, or injury that results from the chase. I pay the police to enforce the law. If that means they have to chase down the occasional fleeing felon....then so be it. All, and I do mean all, liability from any damages that result from such chases need to rest soley on perpetrator. And don't give me any crap about shooting out the tires. It's neither practical, nor feasable. Hollywood bears little resemblance to real life. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

12-28-2004, 08:33 AM	#17 (permalink)
The_wall Psycho Location: Rhode Island biatches!	this is off topic but when I was 9 r 10 years old I was downstairs by myself late at night (the rest of my family was upstairs in bed) and a guy who was being chased by the cops for drugs or something ended up not taking a turn and drove straight into my mothers car. He then got out of his car and tried to flee into the woods surrounding my house, but we have lots of thick brush and he wasn't able to get far before the cops nabbed him. At 10 years old this scared the shiat out of me. __________________ "We do what we like and we like what we do!"~andrew Wk Procrastinate now, don't put off to the last minute.

12-28-2004, 08:34 AM	#18 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Sorry but that idealistic BS about how she is responsible doesn't cut it for the family of an innocent that gets killed because of a macho Hollywood car chase over check fraud. If you are expecting the criminal to think with a level head you're going to have problems.

12-28-2004, 10:27 AM	#22 (permalink)
pocon1 Banned	I live near Washington DC and the cops are not allowed to chase anybody. Needless to say, very few criminals are caught(this is only part of the problem). Kids in stolen vehicles will pull up next to officers in some neighborhoods, flip off the officer or throw something at him, and drive away through red lights. The cops cannot do anything. The kiddie car thieves in some neighborhoods are ridiculous and there is a news story about once a month on them. 11 and 12 year olds steal cars in the district.

12-28-2004, 10:42 AM	#23 (permalink)
StephenSa Psycho Location: Dallas, Texas	Clearly the woman should be charged with the victims death as it was her actions that caused his demise and in fact her vehicle that crashed into the victim. Had she been driving recklessly without being chased she would be charged with reckless homicide so of course she should rot in jail regardless of police involvement. The fact she had such clear disregard for the law proven by her criminal activities and running from the authorities only makes it more imperative to remove this woman from polite society. As for police chases and compability for me there is no clear answer. The police must be able to use all their abilities and tools at their disposal to apprehend criminals. The police didn't know that the suspect they pursued was "only" guilty of non violent crime, for all they knew it might be the FBI's most wanted they had in their sights. It was their duty to pursue and apprehend to the best of their ability. Of course as I said an officer must use ALL the tools in their arsenal and the best tool is their mind. I would say it is up to the individual officer to a great extent to determine the safety of continuing a pursuit that is growing more reckless. The article stated that the victim was struck in a relatively rural area and traffic was light so the officer probably made the best judgement call he could and unfortunately things went awry. Had they been in a crowded urban setting he might have dropped the pursuit. Police officers should be VERY well trained in this area and it is an issue that should be addressed regularly with officers so they are very aware of the dangers of getting caught up too intensely in a pursuit. However if we set a standard where authorities call off pursuit too easily/frequently then more people will run thinking they can get away. I believe it is near impossible to set a national standard for car chase scenarios. The best society can do is train our police officers well and treat each situation individually. Different factors will arise with each situation and it is up to those in the thick of things to make good choices. In the incident that started this thread I can't fault the police. It seems a reasonable call was made that ended in tragedy. Last edited by StephenSa; 12-28-2004 at 10:50 AM..

12-28-2004, 12:59 PM	#30 (permalink)
noodles Psycho Location: sc	i agree with bill. if police ever draw out guidelines to define when someone needs to break off a chase, people will know exactly what they need to do to shake their chasers. if the law defines that the chase needs to stop after x miles, someone will make sure they do their best to run for x miles. if the chase needs to be broken because it is unsafe, a criminal is going to be as dangerous to others with their driving as possible. of course, not all will do this crap, but the real criminals who will be running will pull this stuff. either way, the danger is high and the blame for this should be placed almost entirely on the criminal (unless there was a police screw up).

12-28-2004, 01:30 PM	#32 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	the more that police departments are faced with having to stop dangerous chases, the more dangerous it becomes for citizens on the street. Soon, all a person will have to do to avoid a pursuit is just drive recklessly. Talk about holding police hostage on the street. Why don't we just install cameras everywhere, photograph all actions, and dispatch police to the suspects home after we call to determine he/she is there? It's simple really, you run from the cops you become responsible for anything that happens. This woman should be charged with capital murder with depraved indifference to human life and should be either executed or serve life with no possibility of parole. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

12-28-2004, 01:34 PM	#33 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	those that also talk about the soundproofing of cars... don't forget that townships have also created noise ordinences to keep the levels of noise down, this impacts planes, EMS, and police cars. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

12-28-2004, 03:09 PM	#37 (permalink)
Craven Morehead Custom User Title	Its been nearly three years since the daughter of one of my best friends was killed as a result of a police chase. The Chico CA police were chasing a stolen SUV. It was stolen by the 15 year old daughter of the owner. She was running away. She paniced, ran a stop sign and killed a young girl. What would have happened had the police not purused her? Very little, I'm afraid. I urge you to read the following website and if so moved, add your support. http://www.kristieslaw.org/

12-28-2004, 03:29 PM	#38 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Apparently the only people that are for reform are those that have had someone taken from you by untrained cops. There's a lot of talk about how "oh, I'd be upset but it would bring me closure to know that they got a dangerous person off the streets" That's BS. If you lost someone because of some car chase that resulted from a person running from some stupid misdemeanor warrant or non-violent criminal or even some cop who couldn't tell the victim from the suspect, I'm sure most would sing a different tune. Last edited by kutulu; 12-28-2004 at 03:34 PM..

12-28-2004, 03:41 PM	#39 (permalink)
The_wall Psycho Location: Rhode Island biatches!	Well both sides have a pretty good argument if you ask me. I do find myself thinking 'why don't the cops just stop chasing the guy" when I watch worlds scariest police chases or some other variation of the show. __________________ "We do what we like and we like what we do!"~andrew Wk Procrastinate now, don't put off to the last minute.