Police Chases - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dksuddeth · 12-28-2004, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Apparently the only people that are for reform are those that have had someone taken from you by untrained cops. There's a lot of talk about how "oh, I'd be upset but it would bring me closure to know that they got a dangerous person off the streets" That's BS. If you lost someone because of some car chase that resulted from a person running from some stupid misdemeanor warrant or non-violent criminal or even some cop who couldn't tell the victim from the suspect, I'm sure most would sing a different tune.

tell me, why would you not blame the person that was running?

flstf · 12-28-2004, 06:44 PM

High speed chases on busy streets seem about as dangerous as shooting at a fleeing suspect on a busy sidewalk. There should have to be a very good reason to do either.

From what I have read most of these chases are people refusing to stop for traffic violations.

kutulu · 12-28-2004, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

tell me, why would you not blame the person that was running?

tell me, why would you not read a thing that i wrote on this?

dksuddeth · 12-28-2004, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

tell me, why would you not read a thing that i wrote on this?

i've read everything you've written on this. unless you can point out to me where it is you are blaming the person running from the cops for any resulting innocent deaths, all i've seen you write is how you are blaming the police for the resulting deaths.

Vincentt · 12-28-2004, 08:53 PM

This is BS; stop victimizing the criminals. She drove her car 100 MHP and recklessly killed a man. She is at fault she killed him.

kutulu · 12-29-2004, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

i've read everything you've written on this. unless you can point out to me where it is you are blaming the person running from the cops for any resulting innocent deaths, all i've seen you write is how you are blaming the police for the resulting deaths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Of course she is to blame but the cops don't come out smelling like roses. I'd expect a multi-million dollar settlement if I was her family. Additionally, the cops that ran the chase should be fired immediately.

Like I said, read all of my posts.

The cops are partly to blame for this. They should not have continued their pursuit. The type of offense that they suspected her for was not a high risk for society and they had a description of her, her ID, and the license plate of the car she was driving. They easily could have picked her up later.

The police fucked up here. Barely anyone here will admit this.

RangerDick · 12-29-2004, 08:23 AM

Truly a tragic story. I honestly can't say how I would react if I had a family member who was killed in this fashion. While I'm certain that I would be extremely upset, I don't think I would blame the police. Uhh, they chase bad guys, this is what they do. "Stop!...Or I'll say stop again!" doesn't really work all that well when chasing bad guys in the real world.

The emotional foofernacle about how people would feel differently if they had a family member killed because of a pursuit is merely an attempt to replace logical thought and analysis with an emotional reaction to a terribly tragic situation. Feeling vs rational analysis.

I hope the cops Rodney King'd her arse when they got a hold of her.

kutulu · 12-29-2004, 08:46 AM

If they get killed in pursuit of a suspected murdered it's one thing. Getting killed in pursuit of a person wanted for check fraud is something entirely different. The type of offense needs to be considered before a high speed chase ensues. We don't need to risk public lives over petty thieves.

dksuddeth · 12-29-2004, 08:51 AM

kutulu, i can appreciate your position on it, but I disagree completely. It doesn't matter whether the pursued is a mass murderer, a check forger, or an unkown entity. All you are doing is allowing petty criminals to run from the police and avoid paying the consequence for breaking the law. People that run from the police should be required to pay for any and all damages resulting from their criminal activity INCLUDING running from the police.

smooth · 12-29-2004, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

kutulu, i can appreciate your position on it, but I disagree completely. It doesn't matter whether the pursued is a mass murderer, a check forger, or an unkown entity. All you are doing is allowing petty criminals to run from the police and avoid paying the consequence for breaking the law. People that run from the police should be required to pay for any and all damages resulting from their criminal activity INCLUDING running from the police.

Where do you get this idea that if the police don't engage in a high-speed persuit, the perpetrator is going to get away scott-free?

In this particular case, the police knew where she lived.

It's an empirical question that can be easily ascertained from available data sets whether most persuits involve criminals that the police have knowledge of their usual hang-outs and living spaces.

Not to mention the other ways of persuit: aerial, serial (cars form a communication chain throughout the path of the suspect and apprehend when he or she stops the vehicle), or even technological. A high-speed chase is both unnecessary due to our modern technological devices and dangerous to law-abiding citizens.

Many people in this thread have set up a false dilemma: either police engage in chases, apprehend the suspects, and sometimes kill or maim innocent bystanders, or they just throw their hands in the air and let the criminals run rampant throughout the cities.

dksuddeth · 12-29-2004, 10:11 AM

police chasing a suspect know only one thing for certain and thats that the person is running from the law. everything else is an assumption. In the case of this check forger, what if it was someone else who had killed the owner of the car and then stole it? If they give up pursuit intending to just meet her at her home they could find the dead body but then the murderer would be gone. Yes, its speculation and almost all of it usually is and even I'd be angry if someone I cared about was injured or killed because of a high speed pursuit, but the criminal running away is the criminal that caused the carnage, chaos, and ultimately the death of the innocent. Our police on the streets have their hands tied up enough to serve and protect, lets not tighten the cuffs anymore on them.

I can almost guarantee you that with the exception of the most stupid and reckless of individuals out there, the first time you charge someone with capital murder because they ran from the cops for a speeding ticket and killed someone, you'd have less people running from the law.

kutulu · 12-29-2004, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

I can almost guarantee you that with the exception of the most stupid and reckless of individuals out there, the first time you charge someone with capital murder because they ran from the cops for a speeding ticket and killed someone, you'd have less people running from the law.

That whole "get tough on crime" idea is old and busted. It just doesn't work. We've ramped up sentances on drugs, DUI, and all sorts of other things and it hasn't changed anything. We already have penalties for running but that doesn't stop people with a misdemeanor warrant for a traffic ticket (pay the fine and go home) from starting a high speed chase. They get caught and end up doing time for the chase they caused.

It's not as if people have some checklist they go over in their heads before they decide to run. If they did, they wouldn't run away from petty crimes (much less than this example) and increase their jail time. The first time someone gets charged with murder it will get a 10 second mention on the news. People hear it and forget it.

This death is manslaughter, not 1st degree homicide. It's on the same level of a DUI related death, not premeditated murder.

As to your other scenario about how it could be a murderer that they just don't know about, that's not very likely is it? Next time you're pulled over, should the cops do a DNA test and a full body cavity search on you because you might be guilty of something else that they don't know about?

dksuddeth · 12-29-2004, 01:41 PM

we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I do know that ramping up sentences or punishments won't deter ALL, theres always going to be idiots out there or people who think they can still get away, but it would stop a majority of them I think.

currently, this death is manslaughter, but if the states were to change their criteria via the voting booths it could be changed to felony murder easily enough.

f6twister · 07-26-2005, 10:07 AM

The lady involved in this pursuit was sentenced recently & I thought I would post the results. As far as I know, no police officers were disciplined in this case.

What do you think of the sentence length? Being a family member of the person who died, I would probably be happy. This is much longer than I had ever thought she would get.

I put both stories in because they each have some different information.

Woman sentenced in fatal collision

A Random Lake woman who caused a fatal collision at a Glendale intersection last year while fleeing police at speeds of up to 100 mph was sentenced Friday to 15 years in prison.

Lara M. Strack, 25, led police on a chase through Washington, Ozaukee and Milwaukee counties in December before she hit a car broadside at N. Port Washington Road and W. Hampton Ave., fatally injuring Benjamin Fagan, 82, of Whitefish Bay.

Her attorney, Douglas Bihler, had sought three years in prison out of the possible sentence of 28 years for his client, but Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Elsa Lamelas found that punishment insufficient.

"It would be impossible to determine how many people Ms. Strack endangered by the recklessness of her conduct," Lamelas said.

Strack was ordered to pay Fagan's widow more than $28,000 in restitution for the wrecked car and funeral expenses.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/gen/jul05/343207.asp

********************************************************

Random Lake Woman Sentenced After High-Speed Chase, Accident

POSTED: 8:18 pm CDT July 22, 2005
UPDATED: 11:25 am CDT July 23, 2005

Lara Strack, the Random Lake woman who led police on a deadly chase last year, was sentenced Friday to 15 years in prison.

Strack killed 80-year-old Benjamin Fagan last December after she ran a red light at Port Washington Road and Hampton while evading police. Her SUV slammed into Fagan's vehicle.

A state investigator had recommended four to five years in prison, but the judge decided to sentence Strack to 15 years.

"If I could take back my mistakes, I would," said Strack. "If I could trade places with Mr. Fagan, I would. Lives were put in danger that day because I thought only of myself. I apologize to everyone involved."

Strack fled police after trying to pass a forged check. She was busted three times in the prior three months for bad checks and didn't want to go back to jail.

Her father told the judge his daughter was desperate, in an abusive marriage and pregnant with twins, which she miscarried in jail.

She will serve 15 years in prison, followed by five years of supervision.

Strack still faces forgery and bad check charges in two counties.

http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/n...47/detail.html

12-29-2004, 08:51 AM	#49 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	kutulu, i can appreciate your position on it, but I disagree completely. It doesn't matter whether the pursued is a mass murderer, a check forger, or an unkown entity. All you are doing is allowing petty criminals to run from the police and avoid paying the consequence for breaking the law. People that run from the police should be required to pay for any and all damages resulting from their criminal activity INCLUDING running from the police. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

12-29-2004, 10:11 AM	#51 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	police chasing a suspect know only one thing for certain and thats that the person is running from the law. everything else is an assumption. In the case of this check forger, what if it was someone else who had killed the owner of the car and then stole it? If they give up pursuit intending to just meet her at her home they could find the dead body but then the murderer would be gone. Yes, its speculation and almost all of it usually is and even I'd be angry if someone I cared about was injured or killed because of a high speed pursuit, but the criminal running away is the criminal that caused the carnage, chaos, and ultimately the death of the innocent. Our police on the streets have their hands tied up enough to serve and protect, lets not tighten the cuffs anymore on them. I can almost guarantee you that with the exception of the most stupid and reckless of individuals out there, the first time you charge someone with capital murder because they ran from the cops for a speeding ticket and killed someone, you'd have less people running from the law. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

12-29-2004, 01:41 PM	#53 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I do know that ramping up sentences or punishments won't deter ALL, theres always going to be idiots out there or people who think they can still get away, but it would stop a majority of them I think. currently, this death is manslaughter, but if the states were to change their criteria via the voting booths it could be changed to felony murder easily enough. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

07-26-2005, 10:07 AM	#54 (permalink)
f6twister Addict	Update to the Story The lady involved in this pursuit was sentenced recently & I thought I would post the results. As far as I know, no police officers were disciplined in this case. What do you think of the sentence length? Being a family member of the person who died, I would probably be happy. This is much longer than I had ever thought she would get. I put both stories in because they each have some different information. Woman sentenced in fatal collision A Random Lake woman who caused a fatal collision at a Glendale intersection last year while fleeing police at speeds of up to 100 mph was sentenced Friday to 15 years in prison. Lara M. Strack, 25, led police on a chase through Washington, Ozaukee and Milwaukee counties in December before she hit a car broadside at N. Port Washington Road and W. Hampton Ave., fatally injuring Benjamin Fagan, 82, of Whitefish Bay. Her attorney, Douglas Bihler, had sought three years in prison out of the possible sentence of 28 years for his client, but Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Elsa Lamelas found that punishment insufficient. "It would be impossible to determine how many people Ms. Strack endangered by the recklessness of her conduct," Lamelas said. Strack was ordered to pay Fagan's widow more than $28,000 in restitution for the wrecked car and funeral expenses. http://www.jsonline.com/news/gen/jul05/343207.asp ****************************************************** Random Lake Woman Sentenced After High-Speed Chase, Accident** POSTED: 8:18 pm CDT July 22, 2005 UPDATED: 11:25 am CDT July 23, 2005 Lara Strack, the Random Lake woman who led police on a deadly chase last year, was sentenced Friday to 15 years in prison. Strack killed 80-year-old Benjamin Fagan last December after she ran a red light at Port Washington Road and Hampton while evading police. Her SUV slammed into Fagan's vehicle. A state investigator had recommended four to five years in prison, but the judge decided to sentence Strack to 15 years. "If I could take back my mistakes, I would," said Strack. "If I could trade places with Mr. Fagan, I would. Lives were put in danger that day because I thought only of myself. I apologize to everyone involved." Strack fled police after trying to pass a forged check. She was busted three times in the prior three months for bad checks and didn't want to go back to jail. Her father told the judge his daughter was desperate, in an abusive marriage and pregnant with twins, which she miscarried in jail. She will serve 15 years in prison, followed by five years of supervision. Strack still faces forgery and bad check charges in two counties. http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/n...47/detail.html __________________ A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin

12-28-2004, 06:44 PM	#42 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	High speed chases on busy streets seem about as dangerous as shooting at a fleeing suspect on a busy sidewalk. There should have to be a very good reason to do either. From what I have read most of these chases are people refusing to stop for traffic violations.

12-28-2004, 08:53 PM	#45 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	This is BS; stop victimizing the criminals. She drove her car 100 MHP and recklessly killed a man. She is at fault she killed him.

12-29-2004, 08:23 AM	#47 (permalink)
RangerDick Loser Location: manhattan	Truly a tragic story. I honestly can't say how I would react if I had a family member who was killed in this fashion. While I'm certain that I would be extremely upset, I don't think I would blame the police. Uhh, they chase bad guys, this is what they do. "Stop!...Or I'll say stop again!" doesn't really work all that well when chasing bad guys in the real world. The emotional foofernacle about how people would feel differently if they had a family member killed because of a pursuit is merely an attempt to replace logical thought and analysis with an emotional reaction to a terribly tragic situation. Feeling vs rational analysis. I hope the cops Rodney King'd her arse when they got a hold of her.

12-29-2004, 08:46 AM	#48 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	If they get killed in pursuit of a suspected murdered it's one thing. Getting killed in pursuit of a person wanted for check fraud is something entirely different. The type of offense needs to be considered before a high speed chase ensues. We don't need to risk public lives over petty thieves.