Carno

I love FMJ

rat

Beg to differ on the TIP of the spear quite significantly. The tip of the spear is 100% dependent upon the mission requirements of whatever assault is planned. Whether it be Army SF infiltrating deep into occupied territory and training indigenous dissidents then patrolling with them (i.e., the Montanyards of Vietnam), SEALs hitting the beach to simulate the landing of an entire amphibious division (i.e., the beach assault conducted in Gulf War I in tandem with Schwarzkopf's 'long left hook' from the land side), Force Recon going into the weeds as the successors to the LRRPs (Long Range Recon Patrols) of Vietnam, air assault troops out of Fort Campbell (101st Air Mobile) or the paratroopers from Ft. Bragg (82nd Airborne), UDT/EOD troopers going in to clear the beaches of landing obstacles, the Navy fighter pilots that fly Iron Hand or Weasel missions looking for enemy radar/AAA and neutralizing it, or the recon screen of the 4th ID pushing its Bradleys out into Indian country.

To claim that Marines are the TIP of the spear is a blanket generalization that is, more times than not, far from the truth. First to hit the beach? Odds are if it's the precursor to an amphib assault, the SEALs and/or Force Recon have been there already. First into combat? Rarely if its on the interior of a country if the Army is in any position to apply force.

This is not to say the esprit'd'corps of the Marines is not commendable, or that their training is easy. However, the United States Armed Forces have become nothing if not versatile, mobile, and agile since Vietnam. By the time Marines are landing or entering combat, there's a good chance that Army SF, SEALs or Force Recon have prepared the way in some manner, even if its "simple" intelligence gathering or weather reporting. One thing that I believe sets the Marines apart, just as the SEALs are set apart, is that they are very vocal in their pride of place. In contrast, the former Green Berets I've met (three of them now) along with the three active I've met that went through the SFQC and earned their Special Forces tab, have been much more low-key and quietly intense instead of donning the vocal bravado of the Marines and SEALs I've known. Rangers tend to fall in between, since after all, "Rangers Lead the Way."



Lastly, in regrads to someone saying that the 82nd Airborne is the only active combat-jump division, they're forgetting the 27th (I believe that's the proper number) Airborne out of Italy, along with the 75th Ranger Regiment.


Not trying to be offensive to anyone in this thread, but there are plenty of places to find accurate information on all the topics this discussion has encompassed, from Marine Corps Boot to Army Basic, the 101st and 82nd to the 5th Special Forces Group, Navy SEALs and Force Recon. Most of them have .mil or .gov at the end of the web address. It's not the most interesting reading to many, but it's there for the enjoyment and edification of all.

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Suave

I've been told that the guard is treated as a second class fighting force (and in many ways they are), and so is basically outfitted with with hand-me-downs from the other services. So it's most likely a combination of worse equipment and less discipline.

WillyPete

I'd say the difference is that the marines are statistically more active than the other branches.
Their personnel and trainers ahve seen more action than all the others combined.

That experience also makes them want to train harder, as the older personnel will know its value.
You could join the army and never see action, unless your division was involved.

The army is really there to provide the backbone of US military influence.
The marines help carve out new areas of influence. When you sit on something like the army is meant to, you just need weight. When you carve, you need a sharp edge.

thingstodo

I have a great deal of respect for anyone in the military and even more for the elite-type units, Marines included. As was said in A Few Good Men, someone has to walk that wall. And whoever that is needs to have the absolute best training possible, which includes creating a certain kind of mindset.

I missed the Vietnam draft by about a year. I'm not sure what I would have been like had I gone. I say that because I know I would have had to create something very different inside myself to do the things needed and to survive.

I had a buddy who knew he was going to be drafted, so he enlisted in the marines thinking he wanted the best possible training if he had to go. After basic, he signed up for jungle warefare and survival (or something like that) so he would be even more prepared. That would be me: turn me into a killing machine if that's what I have to be. I would just worry some about how to turn that off later. It's a tough catch-22.

War sucks. There is nothing glorious about it. I salute every man and woman that has had to deal with it.

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whocarz

I looked up 27th Airborne through Google and came up with the 27th Engineer Battalion (Airborne). So my original statement is still correct. The 82nd is the only paratrooper DIVISION still in the U.S. military. The 27th Engineer Battalion and the 75th Ranger Regiment are NOT divisions.

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Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

rat

whocarz, i appologize for the mistake, as the only time i'd seen their insignia, the number was spelled out in roman numerals. i'd seen their combat patch, the blue dragon insignia with airborne above it, which turns out to be the XVIII Airborne Corps, of which the 82nd is an integral part. one of the maps I'd seen down at MEPS a couple years back had all the unit combat patches on a map of the world, in the places where the units are deployed, and for some reason, it had parts of the XVIII showed as forward-deployed in Italy.

Sorry about the misquote, as I'd misread your original post, missing the word airborne division. Admittedly, the 75th is not a division unto itself, though it is an active combat-airborne unit

Glad to runa cross someone who knows their stuff and isn't running off misinformation and speculation

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rat

not to be an ass, but these two sentences are true of any outfit involved with the military. those who have "seen the elephant" so to speak will always value their training and impress upon the younger members the value of that training.

and as far as "not seeing action unless your division was involved," once again, that goes for any branch. With the exception of the past three years of war, there are many thousands of soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines that didn't see combat during their enlistments.

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