Inconsiderate People
 

Let's face it, the real issues most people have is not with smokers or fat-people per se', but with inconsiderate people, who are not limited by sex, age, race or personal vice.

I too could go on a rant about this group or that group, but everytime, I realize that this is the real issue, our tendency to not give a fig how we affect those around us.

Unfortunately, there is also a flip side to this, our own tendency to be intolerant of others.

Consider smoking in a restaurant.

I know full well that people like to light up in restaurants, particularly after a meal and I really have no problem with this, but I also don't want to be overwhelmed by it. Fortunately, many cities require that restaurants have separate smoker areas and this does the trick. Do I still catch the occasional whiff? Yes, but an occasional whiff is ok. Likewise, I do not sit next to the bar and complain if I smell a lot of smoke. But when someone smokes in a clearly non-smoker area, that tells me that person really doesn't care about anyone but themselves and their "rights" and thus they get no respect or sympathy from me.

I myself am overweight, although I wish I wasn't. Unfortunately, when I fly, I will be snug to the person next to me, if that seat is taken (this is especially true in older planes). When the plane is full, that is unavoidable. Yet some direct an almost unreasoning hate towards me (or someone like me) for doing so, but none of it towards the airlines who jam as many seats in each plane as possible. Supposedly I have a choice of "not being fat", when I may or may not have that choice. In otherwords, fat people deserve contempt simply for being fat.

To me this is as unacceptable as saying smokers deserve contempt for simply smoking and again glosses over the basic issue of lack of respect and tolerance for each other.

So I would hope that people can just choose to show a little more kindness and understanding in their lives.

We would all get along better if we did.

Well said. Everyone has their unattractive features or habits. Dealing with any of them really represents a small part of your day and an insignificant part of your life.

interesting, I'd honestly never thought of overweight people causing the same unreasoning hate as smoking....but now that I think about it......interesting....

WORD!!!!

:thumbsup:

I don't know... What's your excuse for being overweight?

I don't offer an excuse, nor do I appologize.

To do so smacks of justifying it, and I have no further need to do that.

What's your excuse for being obnoxious? It's part of the make up that creates a whole person.

I hope you are joking.

I strongly suspect he wasn't, but we all know there are people that think being fat requires justification or it becomes a moral failing to be ashamed of.

Ermm :/

Unless a person has a certain medical condition, I think that being fat is a choice. I'm pretty sure that 90% of overweight people could lose weight if they really wanted. I know it's very hard, and that it takes a long time.. but it can still be done. So since being fat is usually a choice, why should I be more tolerant? Am I missing something?

so why should it be excused?

I am overweight, it isnt because I like to be. I have dieted, and lost weight, put it back on, there is a myriad of causes. I am aware and understand at a basic level I am overweight because I consume too many calories and do not burn off enough, but it is not so easy to lose weight as to wish to or an effort of will.

I dont feel so much to be an object of hate for being my size, perhaps more an object of fun. To be a big guy, it is natural to be a clown, it is a role I seem to be expected to play and I fall into myself - somehow to be my size, it is hard to be taken seriously in some occasions/places.

People in the street will come up to you and call you "big fella", "big boy" and so... it is insensitive... if someone was bald, no stranger would walk up to them and casually call them "slap head"... but people always seem to feel it is ok, that one would not mind, to tease or make comments about someone's size.

And so you could be a more pleasant and tolerant person, if you really tried. Your genes do not make you like you are, insofar as you are conditioned to be, you have the choice and power to change, to gain empathy and sympathy, to become emotionally aware of other people's reality holding the same validity as yours... so for us both, maybe I should diet, and you should work on being better as well... maybe we shall both see improvements, or maybe not. All one can do is try as much as one can.

Regardless of it being a choice or not, why does it fucking matter if someone else is overweight? It's their life, not yours. They are aware of the health risks. The only time it affects you directly is if you sit next to them in an airplane. Unless you are a supermodel with a flawless body you have no place to talk about offensive appearances.

not to bring up the other threads, but the overarching tone here is one of sentiment toward overwieght people. there was not nearly the same degree of outcry when someone was busting smokers' balls earlier today.

the truth, sad and obnoxious as it may be, is the most people can NOT be overwieght if they had some self control and discipline. just the same way, most people can NOT be smokers. i dont buy into addiction and lack of control or excuses. come to grips with the fact that you have a vice that you dont really care to address and that some people are gonna call you on it. smells like life to me. deal.

I think people are being way too sensitive and blowing things out of proportion.

For example: Live and let live.
Smoke, drink, eat all you want, I really don't care. I only care when your "rights" or lifestyle choices infringe upon mine. Tolerance is not the issue; I think we're ok there, however, I don't need to tolerate other people's choices aversely affecting my life.

I quit smoking cold turkey 3 1/2 years ago. I lost thirty pounds through good ol' fashioned diet and exercise in the past three months. It was my choice and I made a clear decision. I still drink beer and eat steak, I just don't supersize it. I don't impose my lifestyle upon others and expect the same courtesy in return.

In other words, pee in your own pool all you want, but just don't pee in mine.

People need to take responsibility and accountability for their own actions. For example: Credit works by rewarding the responsble user with the best rates and incentives. Conversly, if you don't manage well, you will suffer the negative effects.

I believe obesity and smoking should work the same way in insurance and services. If you're too fat, pay extra for the extra space (i.e. - on an airplane etc.). That way, no one can complain to you and you've paid for it. Health care and insurance should work the same way. The better you take care of yourself, the better the rate, services and care. SO if you smoke, pay a higher premium and shut up all the complainers and whiners that you're clogging the system. If you are healthy and exercise, you deserve a major discount and applause. Maybe a pat on the back for not burdening the rest of us.

I think this is a good idea. It is clear and concise and we knw exactly what we're getting. We can make clear and conscious choices. Something like that.

Also, "big fella" and "big boy" are terms of affection and friendliness. If it bothers you, definitely speak up and say so. Most people don't do it to be malicious, it's just an endearment. Like "Curly", or "Red" or calling the big guy "Tiny". I know lots of bald guys called " Chrome Dome" or "Melon head". I was referred to as "Baldy" for the longest time (for obvious reasons): My response: "Hey, bald is beautiful" *wink*

Good thread, good discussion.

You are right we should all be more civil to each other. Overweight people make up something like 60% of the population so there aren't many laws passed against them yet. However smokers only make up 30% or so of the population so it's easy to pass all kinds of restrictions. I do not understand how we can justify telling an owner of a bar or restaurant that they cannot allow smoking when all people have to do is not go there.

Well I take public transportation everyday and sitting in the bus next to an overweight person can be bothersome.
It also affects me because, since they aren't too healthy, they need more money from our health-system. And it's with my taxes that they pay that they pay that health-system.

Anyway, I don't laugh or ridicule overweight people. But then again, I have a lot of trouble feeling compassion for them, since they (usually) could do something about it.
With that being said, I'll keep reading this thread and maybe my opinion will change.

Hmmmm....Interesting point flstf: However, smoke moves around and stuff, but someon'es obesity will not eke over to your table and give you a heart attack or stroke or cholesterol. So if there's smoking in every restaurant, a non-smoker would be severely limited. Does that make sense? Sort of?

I still think it comes back to choice and respecting one another. Sort of what lebell was saying about being considerate. In a way, it's like the SUV issue. I don't really care what you drive, but please don't park in a "compact space". It just messes things up.

I don't really judge: I have friends who are fat and friends who smoke. But please don't blow smoke in my pregnant wife's face and bitch at me or call me a Nazi (highly offensive) when I politely ask you to take it somehwere else.

The problem when we start to go down this path is where do we draw the line. If we punish (tax higher) people who are overweight, what about folks with high colesterol, or diabetes, or whose family has a high incident of heart disease? Soon if not already we will be able to determine from people's DNA whether they have a higher risk of many diseases as well as life expectancy. Do we tell these people that we will not cover their children? Do we separate everyone into good genes and bad genes health coverage?

Restaurants have the right to be non-smoking if they choose to be, regardless of the absence of local laws restricting it. In fact, there are many and it is becoming more and more common. Nobody forces you to dine at a place that allows it.

Be realistic about the risks of second hand smoke. If all of your exposure is due to restaurants, bars, and passing people outside of buildings you are not going to suffer ANY real consquences. That anti-smoking nazis would like you to believe otherwise but unbiased science would refute it.

Be honest, you don't like the smell. That is it.

Yes, I agree, no it doesn't but surely the restaurant owners will see an opportunity and open up smoke free places. I just don't think they should be forced into it. People do not have to go to smoke filled places, they can vote with their feet.

Good point flstf: I am actually a big proponent of the "let-the-market-decide" method.

One disclaimer: I occasionally smoke a cigar, but I don't when I eat. Would like to though, at a bar/lounge. Especially if there is jazz and good whisky/brandy.

The difference between second-hand smoke and say, other unpleasant odor (i.e. - cologne, body odor) is that second-smoke is lethal/unhealthy while the others are subjectively unpleasant. I think similarly to how burning rubber tires is bad too. If my neighbor did that, I would definitely complain.

I also think kutulu might/may be underestimating the effects of second-hand smoke. And I wouldn't want to chance it, especially with my wife and child. EX: I don't like having to push a stroller or have my pregnant wife go through a big cloud of smoke in front of buildings. It might not be worth the risk. A good compromise would be - smoking section out back or like in airports, a smoking room.

Does anyone know or have any hard data on this?

Incidently, I think most establishments, both retail and dining, have rules regarding the wearing of cologn/perfume and personal hygiene.

oh, if only the world could be so egocentric for us all, what would it be?

What this all adds up to is that there is nothing worse than a fat smoker, heh,heh.

Thank God I am just a fat former-smoker.

Im not fat.....Im big boned!!

I'm overweight....I dont make any excuses either...and Im not ashamed...most of ya'll have seen me and you KNOW Im not shy because I am.....Im lucky that the love of my life cant stand skinny women....In my case I am on medication that makes it impossible to lose weight if I wanted to...so if my big round butt is in your way......Im sure you'll get over it :lol:

oh yeah and I smoke too the only intolerance I have is people who feel the need to point out other peoples "problems"

If I were overweight, mine would be excessive love of good food.

You will have one hell of a time finding unbiased data. However, compare it to things that happen in our everyday lives. We walk through parking lots, sit in freeways, and cook over open flames. The amount of CO (the pollutant with the highest concentrations from cigarette smoke) exposure you get from walking past a smoker cannot be much different than a car passing you in a parking lot. Do you freak out about pushing your stroller through the parking lot when a car drives by? Do you freak out that your kid is standing close enough to the grill to smell the charcoal? Do you keep your kids away from the campfire when you go camping (much worse than second hand smoke due to the much higher volume of smoke being emitted and the fact that people sit and enjoy the smell of the wood burning)?

There is a lot of fanatiscism regarding second hand smoke. Some is based on honest research, a lot isn't. Don't buy into all of it.

From the other thread. Keep in mind however I'm not applying this to people 10 or 20 or even 30 pounds overweight. It's the people that don't even try to excersize, try 2 week fad diets then do back to their previous eating habits (if it made you fat before, why are you going back to it? Try just eating right) etc. and so on. Am I intolerant? Perhaps. I don't prophetize or act rudely to obese people, but inside I feel like they could do something about the 40lb. roll of fat around just their gut. Walking just 20 minutes a day would do wonders. Instead of watching TV go for a walk. That easy.

Fine. Next issue?

I've yet to find one person who complained about another person or group that was perfect themself. However I would rather be a smoker or obese than to be so narrow minded that I couldn't appreciate other people. At least a smoker can quit or a fat person can diet. Those with a narrow point of view are going to miss out on a lot of good things in life.

I agree with Lebell, the realy issue here is intolerance. You have to be tolerant of things like this. If you can't stand other people occasionally bugging you, you shouldn't be living around them. It just happens. Neighbours make too much noise, dogs bark, fat people are fat. That's life in a community for you. There's always an iglo in the north pole for you if you can't take it.

To compare smoking with being fat is really simplistic. A smoker can put out his cigarette and he's no longer a smoker, if he keeps on smoking it's because he doesn't care. A fat person can't become thin in an elevator with you. There's no choice there, no intention.

I think some people in this thread are being assholes. There are enough real problem in the world that we shouldn't be creating any.

*tada*

consider one found :thumbsup:

Tolerance is the key. I don't care how much someone smokes, drinks, does drugs or is 300 lbs over weight. It's their life, let them live it. As intolerant as it sounds, I really don't care about their lives.

It just comes back to the same old question though. Yes, you are intolerant. Doesn't matter if you're preaching or bitching at fat people to lose weight, fact is, you're seeing the fat before you see the person. That means you're prejudging them as lazy, greedy, slobbish couch potatoes. And, no it's not fair of you to do that.

It doesn't even matter that being fat or thin is a 'choice'. A lot of you who are saying it's a choice are saying it under the presupposed notion that to be fat is the 'wrong' choice. Well bully for you Mr Thin, but you know it makes you look horribly self-righteous, right?

Why should I try to exercise? What if I like being fat? What if I don't enjoy it? What if I have other things I want to spend my time on? What if I look in the mirror and like what I see? What if my wife prefers me a bit tubby? What then? Why should I comply with your ideas on making my life a better place to be? If you think battling weight issues are more important than finding happiness, then I'm not interested in your philosophy.

Being a somewhat overweight {6'2" 270lbs} smoker living near and working in a very liberal college town I see and feel the discrimination first hand. Although I'm not obese and I don't require two seats on a bus or plane to be comfortable, I hear my share of "big boy" and "big guy" crap and usually it's coming from 150lb pipsqueak of a man haha. What pisses me off the most though is the stringent smoking laws recently passed by the city council, mostly liberals who pride themselves in accepting everyone as they are. You have to be 20 ft. from any door or entrance, no smoking in bars or restuarants, no smoking in any public places or anywhere the public might be, no smoking in private business's if the public has access blah blah blah yada yada yada. It goes on and on. For the most part the bars and a few of the restuarants continue to allow people to smoke in a smoking area and pay the fine. Better to pay the fine than run off the clientale. But few of the old places have closed, directly related to these new laws. If someone invests thousands of dollars in a business in your city and pays thousands in taxes every year they should be allowed pretty much run their business as they see fit within the context of reasonable laws. An excellant example is the place where I work, the owners are looking for property outside the city limits to avoid these new laws, and none of the owners are smokers. They just don't like the government instructing them on how to run their business.

I have to agree with the whole public transportation thing.

Seeing as my original post got closed (the short-sightedly titled "bloody smokers..."), I would like to take this opportunity to apologise for being so heated over the issue.
It's certainly the issue I enjoy getting heated over the most. :)
I'm not sure where the whole "fat people" discussion came into it, but as far as I understand, didn't it arise from a parody of my own thread which was drawing an anology of my intolerance toward smokers? It seems to have bloomed massively out of hand from a parody...
Yes, I am visciously anti-smoking but shall keep that to myself from now on. I know TFP isnt the place for bitching. I enjoy TFP because I love heated discussions and debates, and being at odds with other people over topics we are both passionate about.
Thanks.

:mad: ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!

Alpha, I enjoyed your parody by the way. I was suprised that people took it so seriously, in particular you mentioned warning PMs from mods...

yeah...sometimes its fun to razz the mods a bit. keeps 'em honest ;)

Something a lot of people don't realize is the whole "metabolism" thing. I'm not super overweight or anything but I could definitely stand to loose a lot of pounds. The thing is, I tried to last semester by going to the gym 4 times a week and doing cardio and the weight machines. I gained an enormous amount of muscle and kept the fat. I actually gained weight. Why? Because of my diet. Even though I don't eat much more (if any more) than the normal person, I am still overweight.

You can give the preach job of how I wasn't "working out" right and how I didn't do my diet right, but in the end, some people can eat all they want and not work out and still keep a nice body. People like me have to bust their ass to keep from being Class III Obese and eat celery all day to lose weight.


So when you see someone who is overweight, don't assume they are lazy and don't care about the person sitting next to them on a flight. It's not always that simple :) Some people will always be bigger than the next person.

People are intolerant of many things in our culture. Most people are intolerant of people that eat with their mouths open, or fart in public, or sleep with thier cousins. We have norms and social mores in our society and being very obese is one of them. I'm not saying it's right to have them, and I would not like to justify my position. In this aspect of life, I'm a bigoted asshole. Sure, you can enjoy being fat. Some people enjoy sleeping with their cousins. It's just not for me. Whether or not you have made a decision to be obese (this so-called "choice" to be fat) the fact remains that our society currently supports a thinner norm.
When I see a very obese person, I see someone that has failed to take care of their body. This does not affect my perception of their personality- I just see that in this area of their life they don't concern themselves. You can be the nicest, most honest, dependable person in the world, but still have a problem with your weight. Obesity is quickly becoming the #1 killer of americans. It is beating out tabbaco- being fat is more dangerous than regularly breathing in smoke. I don't understand people's sympathies for something that shortens your life span and makes it hard to do physical activity.

I don't really care what other people do with their own lives or their own bodies. I do begin to care when their activities or lifestyles begin to impact my life and space. Here are some examples:

-Listen to your own music but don't do so and cover up what I am listening to
- I pay for a complete seat on an airplane and expect to be able to use all of it, both horizontal and verticle; it's like my yard..if you live next door, keep your crap in your own yard
- be quiet in a movie theater; I didn't pay to listen to you talk, I paid to experience a movie
- Smoke all you want but keep your smoke away from me
- toss your drink container in a trash can but don't toss it over my head and drip crap all over me
- clean up after yourself
- manage your kids and don't bring them to innapropriate places
- if we are sitting next to each other in a public place, go to the bathroom to fart

On the other hand, I do expect to have my space invaded in certain places.

- Chuckie Cheese
- water parks
- any place kids go to have fun
- the smoking section of a restaurant or a bar
- public bathrooms for smells

I guess there is a time and place for everything. If we all respect each other we'd all get along better. Focus on the issue as it relates to you, not what you don't like about someone else.

Well, that's debatable given that obesity is on the increase. There might come a day where the obese outnumber everyone else. Then what's the norm?

Where did this 'norm' come from anyway?

That's a bit simplistic. Some people try and fail to lose weight, they battle it all their life. Some people eat too much for compensate for psychological scars. Some people just like food. Some people just eat junk. Thing is, you can't look at an obese person and say 'you fucked up your body', because it may not be that simple. Plus that kind of superior attitude only ever rubs me up the wrong way.

To a point, I agree. To get morbidly obese is, for me, something qiute unacceptable. But I'm happy the way I am, and I suspect that may be too fat for you. I eat what I eat and the way I eat because I like it. For the same reason, I smoke pot daily and listen to loud music that may fuck up my hearing.

That's the way I live my life. I believe in taking my pleasures wherever I find them, and that means in the here and now. Nobody is promised tomorrow. There are so many ways I could walk out my front door in five seconds and be a smear on the pavement a minute later, so trying to guarantee myself extra years by denying myself the things I want... seems stupid.

I'd have to say that losing weight and quitting smoking probably need the same amount of will power, it is a choice -whether or not you choose to do so is up to you.

I think we should accept the fact that some people are overweight and some people smoke. end of.

In fact I've found that smoking supresses hunger, so can lead to weight loss. You should try it.

I have gained a new appreciation for the difficulties of losing weight in the past few years. I have always known that I couldn't possibly understand the struggles of people who try to lose weight, since I stopped growing at 5'2" 100-105 pounds at age 16 and no amount of cheesecakes could make me gain an ounce. I happily disregarded all mention of calorie counting and aerobic exercise, things that just didn't matter to me. That was then.

Eventually, in my mid-30s, my weight started creeping upward, no doubt due to metabolic changes and taking birth control pills for a few years, until I weighed a colossal 130 pounds. No big deal, right? I went off the pill, stopped eating such heavy meals late at night, downsized my ice cream portions, and started getting more exercise. But I didn't lose weight. I stepped up my efforts but still didn't lose weight. I thought, this should be easy. After all, we're just talking about 10 or 20 pounds, right? It's not that easy, even though I didn't feel the need to return to my former stick-figure status. Normal skinny would be just fine.

Finally, a couple of years after going off the pill, I have lost about 15 pounds and am happier with the way my clothes are fitting. I cannot imagine the struggles I would be going through if I were trying to lose 50 or 75 pounds. My feelings have swung between humbling acceptance that I am not exceptional after all, and increased fear and disgust at the thought of obesity. I don't think my story is all that unusual, but it has made an enormous impression on me. The experience has shed some light on my place in the human race.

Well first good post Lebell...and ugh second Redjake, don't be so discouraged that you actually GAINED weight rather than lost...I'm sure you already know but believe it or not you almost always do..because muscle weighs more than fat..more than likely it means you gained a lot more muscle than you give yourself credit for. Yer right about the metabolism thing. Sometimes I eat a lot but I've always been skinny..flat stomached n what not...my dad was the same way when he was young but has since gained a lot of weight..I imagine sometime in the future it will all catch up to me. And actually starving yourself can have other negative effects that are kinda common..when you don't eat a normal healthy ammount of food your body reacts to that and what foods you do eat your body stores as fat to compensate....kinda like the more you sleep the more tired you are and need more sleep. So yeah it's not always their fault theres a lot of knowledge about health out there that isn't offered or that we haven't discovered yet which is probably why people try all the answers but don't always get the results. I'm sure there are some people out there who really just don't care to know but more than likely most of them are very much aware and don't really know what to do about it(asside from surgery). The ones that don't care eventually do end up caring when health issues start arriving. Either way Lebell is right they're people first and people for the most part are naturally good..what makes them bad and bitter is people judging and labeling them, and basically being disrespectful out of ignorance ya know? Ya just assume that they don't respect themselves so why should you respect them when you really can't possibly know that unless you talk to them which you probably won't because you're disgusted with them without a truly good reason to be.

Asta!!

just don't be the latter part of my sig.

Intolerance is definitely needed in our world. However, what about this perspective: Why can't smokers be more tolerant of non-smokers? I don't see them fighting for our right to breath clean air when we go out on the town. I don't see obese people saying, "Poor skinny white guy. I am blocking half of this gentleman's seat and I am sure he will be very crammed on this 6 hour flight". Why does it not work both ways? I only hear things like the skinny guy is intolerant because he doesn't want to be crammed on the flight. I see smokers intolerant because they can't smoke wherever they damn feel like. They are the first people to say if you don't like it, don't go out to eat. However, if that were the case, there would scarcely be any restaurant a non-smoker could eat because according to a previously quoted statistic, 30% of the patrons there will be puffing away while I am enjoying my steak and potatoes. I often walk into a plume of smoke as I enter potential client sites. People smoking outside the front doors with no thought in their mind that perhaps some of the people coming into the building might not want to be smothered in smoke. Where is the tolerance there? I am glad that I live in California and the no-smoking laws are in effect because situations like this are now few and far in between.

I do not judge obese people or smokers. I do believe they have the right to live as they want to, regardless if it hurts or hinders their health. But people seem to forget that tolerance goes a long ways when it is considered from both sides of the coin.