Your god, my god, one god, no god?
 

i have some doubts/questions/thoughts about religious beliefs. it\'s kind of hard for me to put them into words, probably because i don\'t really know what answers i am looking for, or there\'s any answer at all, so please bear with me.

one of my friends is getting baptized this weekend. she came from another country, and was totally unreligious when we were at college together. now after about a year attending church services, she became a pretty hard-core christian: service every week, 10% of her pay check goes to the church, and finally this week she is getting baptized. i was kind of surprised. it\'s understandable that if one was born and raised in a culture where one was taught from the beginning about the mighty god, one would be likely to be a believer. but for an adult non-believer to convert totally to something she didn\'t trust at all and even laughed at before, it is pretty shocking to me. no significant events happened in her life; she just got bored one sunday and was dragged to the service by one of her friends, and thus got started.

then i started thinking about religions in general. to all the believers out there, do you believe there is only one god, your god? and if your answer is yes, just assume, if you were born and raised in another part of the world, where you were taught by your parents from your childhood that no god exists or some other god instead is the almighty power, wouldn\'t you believe in that god or no god at all? then if so, why does one believe in any particular deity at all? just because one happened to be born into a certain religious culture and was made to believe certain ways?

it\'s puzzling me. no offence intended to anyone.

When people go from non-christian/non-beleiver to christian, it's usually a pretty hard fall. I don't think I've ever seen a conversion from one extreme to a middle-of-the-road stance.

Though a change from middle of the road to one extreme or the other frequently happens.

People who are strongly affected by religion are those who need to have a group in support, whether a church family or huge extended family. Sometimes a person can feel really empty and homesick and a church could fill a large need that they may not be aware of at a conscious level.

Whatever the reason, stand by your friend. Perhaps it's only a temporary insanity.

I am not a Christian (was as a child) but as I understand it, you have to accept the Jewish tribal god and his son Jesus Christ as the only god or you will go to hell.

If you are born into another culture and raised in another religion, you have to reject it and accept Christianity or you too will go to hell.
If I'm not mistaken, according to some parts of the Bible, ignorance of the Jewish tribal god is no excuse.

I believe that there is one God who has a multitude of servants (angels). I believe that humans are a limited race and have an incomplete understanding of God. Different cultures have different expectations as to what the ideal being would be and what paradise that being would create for those who follow His tenants.

When Christ said (paraphrasing) "The only way to our Father's kingdom is through me." I feel that it was at least partially allegorical. To his audience at the time he preached a path of tolerance, understanding and responsibility that was unique to Himself. The real message is that the keys to the kingdom are granted to those who embrace Love in their hearts and are compassionate to their fellow man while maintaining responsibility. Christ said "Love your Lord God with all your heart and soul. Love your neighbors as yourselves. On these two things depend all the laws and the prophets." (Again, paraphrasing) That's pretty simple, really. No specific ritual. No mention of specific names. Love and respect others and your spiritual creator.

Now, if you want to follow Christ's lead in specific, there are plenty of churches about who can help with that. But following those two laws is pretty much all you need to do. Which, I think, most people try to do unconsiously. But then again, I fall into the "People are inherently good" camp, which some friends of mine consider insipid.

Expanding the nutshell of my faith a bit more-

1) There is a God.
2) He really doesn't care by what name you address Him.
2a) He doesn't have a gender, "He" is a convention.
3) He wants people to love and care for one another.
4) He wants us to use our intellect to grow and understand the world we live in.
5) Hell is not lakes of fire and chains of ice, it's being separate from Him. If you are in hell, it is by your own doing by casting aside love for things that can return it (people) for things that can't (money, possessions).

There it is. I hope that answers your questions.

(Oh, I do consider myself Christian, if somewhat unconventional.)

I personally find the belief in a god.. let alone the practice of religion.. to be quite ridiculous. I look at everything that happens in every-day life and I just cannot envision or recognize any force in play other than the ones I learned about in physics, psychology and sociology. There is no other factor that makes me go "hmm" nor is there any voice in my head that I do not attribute to my own self. The very same things that happen to me also happen to people of faith, so what's the deal?

Basically, I'm saying that our physical world is obviously (to me) completely untouched by 'godly' forces. It's all science. The true question to ask me is, "Is there an afterlife?" To which I would respond, "No."

The requirement to get into heaven, for many of these faiths is simply "to have faith and to do good by it." I don't know.. maybe I'm hard to impress, but those guidelines are fairly .. well.. I don't know how to explain it. When I imagine an all-powerful being who created an entire world and let his little creatures runamok, I don't imagine him REQUIRING his creatures to all act like sheep. Personally, if I created my own little world, I'd let my lil' fellas do whatever the fuck they wanted and I would just enjoy watching the drama that developed. If I wanted them to hang out with me after they died, I'd probably just choose the cool guys with personality, not the uptight stone-faced pious nuts.

I think about this and I come to the realization that the rules of organized religion were devised to control people. There just isn't any other way about it.

So, why is the belief in God even necessary? Hmm.. I wont get into that 'cause that's the subject of the next installment of the Book of Halism. The basic message I wanna get across is... if there IS a God, I'm sure he'd be fine if you were just an overall cool, nice person who tried to make the world a better place. I mean, if God WAS as stuck up, self-absorbed and 'holy' as the churches make him out to be, I wouldn't wanna even nod my head to him, let alone kneel and praise him.

Cliff Notes: There is no god. Just be a good person and everything will turn out fine either way.

Hey Halx, if there is no god. Who are you trying to impress by being a good person?

Just a thought...

That's the point of Faith Hal no need for proof, in fact if there was proof it wouldn't be faith - I respect people who manage that degree of faith and beleive in some abstract notion of a higher power, I certainly can't do it and used to believe these people were deluding themselves in some way, I still find the idea that somebody can beleive so much in one definition of a god to the exlusion of all other definitions, since different religions don't sit side by side very easily, difficult to rationalize to myself. But then I think I'm missing something, it's my failing that I can't prescribe that level of faith to myself.

one of the greatest gifts of the Spirit, IMO, is to be able to see beyond one's perspective.

Honestly, i don't think the same thing happens to me as most people on this earth...my reasons for faith will be quite different from others.

Often, yes. But does that mean throw out baby with bathwater? The answer to legalism is grace, not lawlessness.

honestly...it seems like you've had a pretty bad run in with Christian theology and practice...and i'm sorry that's the case. but your tone is both certain and closed off...something you might actually share with the folk you decry.

Do you really have to be trying to impress anyone, spiritualy or not, by being a good person? Can't you just be a good person simply because you are a good person? Or, how about being a good person because that is the best way to effectively get along in society, and not simply because of the carrot of "life everlasting" being dangled on a stick?

Nope, it answers nothing, and it says nothing. Theonly way your five rules work, on any level, is if you start by be;leiving the premise stated in number 1, which I don't and many others do not. And, the obvious problem here is that he is a God, and he "wants people to love and care for one another" yet he does nothing to further that agenda.

I suppose if you fear living in hell "without him" might scare you into being loving and caring, but I doubt that very much. I an loving and caring without God, and many beleivers are not, so why the disparity? And is fear the only motivator this GOd has and, if so, does that not display a stark inability to cement his wants and desires into a human model that exemplifies that?

Sorry, it's very weak, and although I respect your need to believe in a God, and I respect that you may need these guidelines in your life, they represent chains and cages for others that already have found peace in their life without the artifice.

Peace,

Pierre

It is my opinion, that this God entity we all attempt to define, in only real in the minds of those who have faith in it. That would mean it is a falsehood for those of us who do not accept such things on faith alone. I would agree with the statement that science does a great job of explaining this world we inhabit, and the usefullness of some creator entity is quickly fading.
I prefer to think of all the pieces of the scientific puzzle as "God" and accept my limited understanding of the interactions of matter and energy as the basis for my faith. Indeed I have faith, in science and theory. It is unfortunate that organized religions (western at least) find it appropriate to disenfranchise those in the scientific set, by sticking with outdated dogma, rather than changing with increased knowledge as it has in the past.
As a reformed Catholic, currently Pagan, I still understand the draw of Christian/Catholic faith, but have no further need of it, and I personally feel the better for my loss of this particular form of worship. That said, followers are not wrong, in any way, they are simply doing what they feel works for them. My only dissapointment is the failure of these people to allow me to be who I am.....and stop damning me to Hell.

As a side note...I will say that if this paradise they proclaim is endowed with such negativity and hatred as the current Dogma portrays.....I would prefer to be elsewhere.

It's not that I'm living my life trying to impress the socks off of God. lol

And I understand what you mean if what you're saying above means: Being kind is it's own reward.

But if you except the premise that there is no God (which personally i don't), then why be a good person?

I'm thinking a lot along the same lines as him, maybe with a "Blind Watchmaker" God, like many deists believe in, and being a good person just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Do you believe there is only one god, your god? Yes

If your answer is yes, just assume, if you were born and raised in another part of the world, where you were taught by your parents from your childhood that no god exists or some other god instead is the almighty power, wouldn't you believe in that god or no god at all? Yes

Then if so, why does one believe in any particular deity at all? Just because one happened to be born into a certain religious culture and was made to believe certain ways? I think that pretty much covers it. We obviously learn our facts about religion, at least initially, from those who raise us. I was technically born to a Catholic family but my parents were not hard core Catholics. We only went to church for weddings, funerals or when my aunt (a Catholic nun) came to visit. When I met my wife, she brought me to a Lutheran service at her church. I found that their thoughts and believes matched the ones I had developed once I started giving religion thought independent of how I was raised. I now have a son and plan to raise him as a Lutheran. Should he choose to go his own route when he becomes an adult, that will be his choice.

The most drastic change I ever saw was a friend about ten years ago. He was a drinking, pot smoking, fighting rebel who was removed from his home for kicking the crap out of his dad. He was also atheist. One day, a mutual friend who is a born-again Christian had him read a bible passage. It made him, as he put it, get a very strange feeling inside, then he sat down and cried. From that point on, he was a born-again Christian and gave up the pot, drinking and fighting. He preached to all of his friends and encouraged others to attend his church.

I guess it comes down to everyones personal perception of what we can't see. Can anyone here say for sure that any god truly exists and provide proof? No. Can anyone deny that things have happened in this world which have never been explained? Yes. While I believe in only my God, I have no right or reason to deny that there could be another God out there. I just go with what I believe and leave the rest of the religious world to their own beliefs.

"I contend that we are both athiests. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

-Stephen F. Roberts

Baron Opal's list kinda summed up my own beliefs, but I'll make a more specific list of my own.

1. I believe in a god and a goddess that function as two parts of the same godhead.
2. I believe in a personal messiah, Jesus Christ.
3. I believe in a life after death.
4. I do not believe in sin, salvation or any notion of punishment in the afterlife. I do, however, believe in karmic balance. Things will go better for you and there will be less resistance towards you in the world if you give, do good and love others.
5. I believe that there are several paths to the same mountain, and I believe there are many faces and facets to faith, personal belief, and spirituality.
6. I do not practice organized religion. I prefer to practice individualized spirituality.
7. I do not believe in converting people to a belief system. People have to arrive at belief and faith through their own path. The only thing I can do is be encouraging.
8. I do not believe in a hell; in the afterlife, as Baron Opal said, hell is the absence of god. It's not meant to be a punishment. But the absence of god is also the absence of love.
9. God is love, quite simply, and love is everywhere. In my mind, denying the existence of my creator is denying the miracle of love and life that surrounds me.

I was an atheist for quite a while and raised by an atheist father and a rather new age-y mom. But I have since found and established a system of belief that works for me. :) That's the important aspect of spirituality: does it work for YOU? Does it make YOU feel good? If non-belief is what satisfies you, that's your bag, baby, and I'm not going to hold it against you. I may be a little sad for you, simply because my spirituality is such a fulfulling part of my life. But if it DOES fulfill you, then I'll be happy for you.

I only ask that others ask and seek what the truth is, and find and establish that truth for themselves while never forgetting to keep searching for the truth. There's always a new one out there, a new piece to the puzzle, and regardless of your belief system, searching for truth of all kinds is valuable and enriching to the human existence.

I know some very religious people. Two of them I are preists. One is very open to others beliefs. Buddhist, Christian (any denomination), Muslim, Jewish, agnostic, athiests... The other is some what more traditional. He has the more there is only one god and the Muslim, Jewish, and Christian god are the same god. In my family one side (my mothers) was never very religious. It has to do with a mean rabbi who was also a bookie (or something) that my grandpa (who was a kid) hated. When the cops came and took the rabbi away my grandpa didn't look into religion until he was 80. And when he did it was more in an academic way. His father was a butcher at non kosher butcher's shop... My father side is more complex. I am a jew my father and his family are roman cathlic. Most of the people in my father side of the family are not religious at all. Though a few (a sister and her father in law) are very religios. She wont even alow her mother to talk about things like psychic mediums in her presence.

Ancer to the question.
No (look at hinduism it could bee said there one god that every thing is a part of in that religion, and other non western religion they don't have the same concept of a god). No (look at all the missionary work, all the religious conversions that have and continue to happen). Hope, Stupidity, Conformity, Threat of force or violence, or for me I was born a jew and have found no religion that i see as superior to betray my jewish heritage (Though I have a realy big opposition to most christian denominations...)

My fellow man. It's my belief that the only afterlife is in the memory and thoughts of others. As well, there are only two things you can do to affect this; hurt and help. Do enough of either and you will live forever.

Hmmmm.

I believe that there is a God. IF he has a name or what that name is I have yet to discover. However, I do not believe in him in what I percieve to be the method of other "christians". As thus:

I figure God wants us to choose being good. He gave us free choice and hopes we do the ethical, not moral thing. Morals are a creation of religion. I have no faith in religious doctrine as a whole. It did lead me in the direction of my current beliefs, but has the appearance of being a bit shallow; an unavoidable consequense of it's man-made creation.

I think God, such as he is, wants to reward us all for doing good for our fellow man, not for God himself. Once we know that each individual should strive for the good of his fellow men (and women), God's "work" is done. I put this in quotes because unless you ask God for help, he won't. Help, that is. It is a lesson of reliance on yourself to make a decision and sometimes a reliance on others to help us bring our decisions to fruition.

I think that Jesus is, in some cases, clearly misunderstood. The way it appears to me, God was all fire and brimstone until Jesus came around. So we say God is all knowing, but what if he didn't truly understand the limits he placed on us? He would know what the limits were, but who's to say he truly understood them. So he was pissed most of the Old Testament because it seemed like we as a race were trying to piss him off. Then he bocomes human (jesus) and a light dawns. He says to himself, "Damn, kiddos, I'm sorry. Bad comunicando here." He then asked us to believe that Jesus died on the cross for us because it was his bridge of god and man that he built. He learned of our pain and became less prone to immolate cities and such. In short, he was all knowing and loving but not on the same wavelength as us.

This all relies on the idea of a God not as perfect as the church would have us believe. A being definitly higer, but not always "right". He is not perfect; he is all knowing, all seeing and all powerful, and embodies love. He is not all understanding or without fault. He can see all possibilities and probabilities, but not the absolute future, just the path that would most likely be the best.

So why worship an imperfect God?

Hell, the Norse, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and many more had imperfect gods. This one I seem to have found a foothold in just seems to be several of their gods at once. They worshiped them because they were freaking gods. And he promises one hell of a retirement package, too. As for Satan, he's just a pissy bitch who's sore that he lost a fight he picked. And he'll push people towards the unethical and unreasonable path whenever he gets the chance to with fuzzy logic and shallow promises. Sounds an awful lot like most churches, doesn't he? :eek: ;)

like some of the posters above, one of my main concerns with christianity is its need to condemn all the non-conformers. if you do not beleive in god, you are going to hell; if you believe in any other god, you are going to hell; if you believe in more than one god, you are going to hell; if you (fill in the appropriate content here), you are going to hell. that just sounds more like a threatening full of hatred to me. there are religions in the world that are much more lenient and mild, buddhism for example. anyone can become a buddha if she/he achieves enlightenment and realization through self-cultivation and pratice in everyday life. i do believe there is some super power up there; what it exactly is i do not know. but please, to quote tecoyah, \"allow me be who i am\", believe in what i believe, explore what i know not, and please \"stop damning me to hell\".

I believe in the value of coincidence, and that paying attention to coincidences can lead one to believe in everyday miracles. If the collective force of those coincidences counts as a god, I believe in one - if not, I don't.

I think they do, and I try to pay as much attention as I can. The most important thing I've learned about my 'god' so far is that it is much, much, much more pervasive than I am - so it's taught me to be right-sized. Or, you could say, humble.

As far as what you believe - just remember it's only what you believe and I don't need to benefit from the joy you are experiencing. Thinking that your beliefs need to be mine is nothing short of blatant self-centered ignorance. It seems pervasive in people who claim to be religious.

I was brought into a Christian church as a kid and exposed to religion, but it seems really stuffed to me. Do all this stuff now so you can get to heaven later. Sorry - later I'll be worm food.

A close friend gave me the best sage on religion one afternoon. He said, "This is the remedial planet. Don't expect to see any burning bushes or become some enlightened soul. Just get up every day and do your best not to hurt anyone, including yourself."

So that's what I try to do. And I try to pay attention...

Look, belief in a gaseous vetebrate that has nothing better to do that eternally punish those who transgress its arbitrary and mutually contradictory regulations would be kind or cute, in a mutant, two-headed tortoise sort of a way, if the folws who did believe just that were ready, willing, and able to kill those who think it's a stupid frickin' idea.

I am pretty sure that there is no go in the sense that most people mean when they say they believe in one. Whether or not there is an intercvconnection between all humans on some level is an open (if far-fetched) question. Mostly, I think that God is just the echoes in people's heads of their own higher brain functions, and that religious faith is just self confidence misplaced. (Certainly it is some sort of confidence game.)

Look, belief in a gaseous vetebrate that has nothing better to do that eternally punish those who transgress its arbitrary and mutually contradictory regulations would be kind or cute, in a mutant, two-headed tortoise sort of a way, if the folks who did believe just that were ready, willing, and able to kill those who think it's a stupid frickin' idea.

I am pretty sure that there is no god in the sense that most people mean when they say they believe in one. Mostly, I think that God is just the echoes in people's heads of their own higher brain functions, and that religious faith is just self confidence misplaced. (Certainly it is some sort of confidence game.)

That smacks of the superiority that aethiests think they have over people who beleive in their God(s), ah bless em, it's just the echoes in their heads of higher brain functions you have as much chance of proving that as you do of proving gods existence, it's fine not to beleive in god but as an opinion it is no more valid than others.

Such logic will get you nowhere. It sounds very defensive too.

All you have to do to understand an atheist's point of view is this: Tell a subordinate of yours (child, employee, friend) that you are entitled to be addressed as 'sir' and only 'sir' from now on. You will probably receive the question 'why?' and you are to respond with 'because.' Observe their reaction.

Now, if this subordinate of yours had been raised and influenced all his or her life to call you by 'sir' then this would not be a problem, but the very notion of approaching this person, who already has a different name to call you by, actually submitting to your request is presumably absurd. People just do not command that kind of power over other people in today's society.

As always, people will look to explain things with the knowledge they have. If you've taken psychology classes before, then you're probably well aware of the process of diagnosis. Well, how do you classify someone who feels and reacts to something that to your best intuitions *does not exist*? Well, you diagnose this person with some degree of schitzophrenia. Now, I'm not calling people who believe in god schitzophrenics. Maybe just the people who think Jesus actually speaks to them, though. However, these same psychology classes will teach you that memories, feelings and sensations can be *taught* to people without them ever having actually experienced them. It's a lot easier to do thanyou'd think, too.

Society does it. They actually do it in a very blunt fashion too. Nearly every day of your life, you are bombarded with the undisputed notion that god does exist. This is social engineering at work. Now, as someone said to me earlier in this thread, the concept of faith is that it does not have to be proven to you in order for you to believe. Now, to the discerning individual, this sounds a lot like giving your car to a stranger who says he's gonna wire you $30000 tomorrow. It's also like someone telling you that they deserve your total complete respect and you must only call them 'sir' ... and you cannot even see proof of their superiority. You're left to assume, to piece together ideas with your dissonance.

God is nothing but a mental teddy bear.

ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE...
 

That's a great answer!

It's my personal belief (currently) that what we call God is everything and everyone. By being everyone and indeed everything God gets to experience and feel everything. He/She/It is omniscient and omnipresent. And as the human race and universe continues to grow, so does God. Therefore the Golden Rule (which appears in almost every religion in some form) has never been more important:

Hal's reasoning pretty much encompasses why I chose to not believe. I would much rather be open minded to everything around me and the ideas of everyone, because no one so far has been able to legitimately answer the smallest, yet biggest, questions of them all: Why, How, Who, Where, What, When. Until I have some legitimate proof, I'm not going to affiliate myself with anyone in particular. In a sense: I AM religion. I am everything. Because I do not know what is right. And I listen and understand all that is around me in religion. Peace, Love, and Understanding. Can you do the same?

True, the rest follow from the first premise, that there is a divine being of some sort. This has been sufficently proven to me my my experiences. Given the nature of these experiences I wouldn't expect anyone else to believe based on them (They weren't Burning Bush / Road to Damascus situations :) ) And I think he does further that agenda. He inspires people often and has given us free will and reason. Prophets all around the world bear the same message. But he can't interfere directly, else we would lose our free will, and thus our ability to grow and achieve.

What fear? There is no fear. If I choose a life that disdains love and God, that's my decision. If I walk away and choose to isolate myself from God there is no punishment handed down. There is just the isolation that I imposed upon myself.

God is not some aged sage sitting upon a golden throne among the clouds. God is not physical in any sense you and I would comprehend. I am certain that whatever does await us after death is outside this physical universe. Also, I don't see how a creed of Love, Respect, and Responsibility is a set of "chains and cages". It certainly prevents me from committing crimes, but I don't think that' what your getting at.

If you follow the same creed, I'm sure we'll meet on the other side. :D

There is no need to impress. Acting "good" isn't showing off for God. It is its own reward as the love and respect you show other people is returned to you. It furthers relationships and societies.

(Not that Halx can't answer for himself, but just thought I'd jump in.)

I suspect it's someone he's trying to lure into the sack ;-)

These aren't directed at anyone in particular, I'm just using Baron's words as reference. This is still for the general consensus of you.

What people have to understand is that some of us choose this isolation. If we want it, let us have it. I am ready to accept my own confinement. Are you?

If there is another side, I think that reguardless of creed, there will be no segregation and we will all see each other and those we love on the other side. :)

I think it's come to the point where hearing or reading about people talking about god feels almost anachronistic. Such values are centuries dated. There is a reason why you will find a higher percentage of atheists and "social liberals" in open communities online than you will in your average coffee shop - communication, shared learning, and evolution.

Back in 'the day' (ya know, when Germany used to be "Prussia") the catholic church viewed the jewish community as not only heathenistic, but, by today's definition, too conservative. The edification of the jews, which included the infusion of catholic ideals into the basic worship structure, was deemed 'The Enlightenment." It was basically the evolution of the jewish society to fit into the modern age.

The churches have gone through several of these evolutionary periods to get to where they are today, to where you base your beliefs upon. That means, basicly, that the values that you believe in today will no doubt change further as the human society lives on. Centuries from now, your core beliefs and rituals will be obsolete. Everything that this culture represents is slowly becoming more 'liberal.' Unless our culture is taken over by another (for example, Romans taking over Greeks and bastardizing their culture) it will continue in this progression.

If left to it's own devices, I feel that our culture will make the belief in god obsolete. You can all thank the internet.

I married into a religious family. I have a Jewish mother and a recovering Catholic father. One time in my in-laws church, the minister, during his sermon, announced that those who do not believe in Christ and God will burn in hell forever. Hello???? Who is HE to tell me I'll burn in hell?
I prefer to think of myself as spiritual. There is no God up in Heaven making judgement lists. There is no Hell waiting on sinful souls. We make our own heaven and hell as we choose to live our lives. Being good or kind should be because it's the proper thing to do, not to reserve a spot in a nonexistent location.
We are life forms and we live life cycles, just like roses, oak trees and rats. How we live and treat others will determine which we most resemble at death..I'm shooting for a rose...

Halx, It sounds like your and my ideas about God and religion are about the same.

I used to spend a lot of time in the #atheism channel on irc (efnet). We had people come in all of the time to try to convert us, it was almost funny to see their logic. We could out-debate them any day, any time because the logic used to hold up religion and god just does not work. Usually it turned into a shouting match on the behalf of the converter and we would end up kicking them.

I firmly believe that religion was invented as a way to control humans. How do you control everyone? You can't watch over everything they do, so you invent a way that no matter where they are, what they are doing; they are being watched and judged. Their ultimate reward, or punishment, is heaven or hell, eternal bliss or suffering. I think when you die, you are turned into dirt. Which isn't all that bad in itself, if a letdown from what the major religions tell us what happens when you die. A lot of people refuse to believe that because they are afraid of what happens when you die. I am not afraid, I just accept it for what will happen and what has been happening for millions of years.

One of the big reasons why I disagree with organized religion is that it is totally dependent on what you are taught growing up. Each religion thinks it is right. No matter what happens "in the end" - over half the people in the world got it wrong.

Another reason I disagree with organized religion is that it is used time and time again to make good people do "bad" things in the name of God (or Allah, or whatever their god is). When we talk about "good" - someone has to define good. I use the Golden Rule. But, religions use their people for their own goals, some of which do not follow the golden rule which I consider the ultimate rule.

I also find a lot of Christians hypocrites. They only use the bible for when it suits their needs, but they will forget parts entirely when it doesn't. How many Christians work on Sundays? The bible obviously says this is the day of rest. How can you endorse only some parts of the bible?

ngdawg, I'm with you. My everyday actions and overall life goals are in many ways "good". I consider what others think of me and want to leave good legacy when I die; and you can die any day. I consider myself spiritual but not in a religious sort of way.

For those that do not believe that anything beyond the physical can or does exist, just scroll on by this post.

The God I believe in has never asked me to adress him in any way in particular. I say, "what's up, man"; he says "I would tell you, but it's a bit much for you all at once. let's just say I'm doing 'stuff'. How're you?"

I don't know where the church get's this idea of an uptight God. He seems rather relaxed, though sometimes a bit depressed, to me.

Remember, God is not religion. God did not make religion as a path to him. Man made religion in thinking it would lead to God. And man is falible.

Even if you have a "different relationship" with what you perceive to be god, you're still acknowledging that there is something there that doesn't actually exist. It somehow has some influence on your life, or else it wouldn't be a god would it? In my opinion, you are letting an imaginary force shape your perceptions and behaviors.

How do you know that God does not exist? Do you have any proof that God does not exist? What does it mean for something to exist? Does it need to be physical in makeup? Do you then believe that anything beyond the physical realm does not exist?

Also, God has no hold on my life that I do not allow him to have, even if he was willing to lead my life for me (Which he is not. That's the devil's work, not God's). Similar to my wife; she has a part in my life only because when all is said and done, I wish for her to be a part of my life and she desires to be a part of my life.

If it cannot be at least,given some form of credence through theoretical experiment. Or proven through base fact....it is not in my reality. It is not my Job to Prove the existance of something I have little reason to believe in the first place. There are no existing , physical manifestations of said entity, and thus no basis in the reality I percieve.

And therefore, in the reality that you have defined God truly does not exist.

One of the main reasons that I never really bought into religions is the control factor. Why would a god create the universe only to control everything in it? It's pointless. Think of it like an experiment: the more you interact, the less valid it becomes. If god is omniscient and omnipotent why would he/she/it bother to do whatever it is that it does, since it already knows the outcome?

To me, you are your own god. The world around you, the one you experience, is your universe. You are the one who controls the state of the (your) universe. If you are generally "good," then you will have been "good." If you are "bad," then you've been "bad." Your experiences do nothing but add to the collective sum of each individual universe. Maybe when you die this thing we call consciousness collects with every other one and forms what we believe to be god. Thus, this god is only the complete collective experience of the universe, not some father figure from the dawn of time who commands respect. Maybe not. I don't know, I'm not dead yet. But I'll tell you what, when I get a chance/die, I'll ask god whether or it exists.

Recap:I don't believe there is a god. Omnipotence, while a fun toy, is pointless. I believe in you, but not your meddling dieties too. Maybe there's an afterlife. Maybe there's not. When I die, I'll tell you either way.

Although i don't believe in god as anything that any "established" religions claim their deity to be, i still like to keep an open mind to the subject and have a dynamic opinion rather than static belief of what god might be. The closest thing i've heard to what god might be and, more importantly, what it isnt, is almost summed up in a quotation from one of my favourite movies, Stigmata:
The movie also focuses on how the established church as an organisation is totally unnecessary and i think that is totally true. No one should have to give 10% out of every pay cheque to a middleman who, in all likelihood, would only muffle the voice of the worshipper and confuse people about what they are worshipping - God, or the church.

In all honesty, in difficult times i do whisper some prayers under my breath e.g. "Give me a break" but it isn't directed at anything, or any god, in particular. Its directed at life as an anthropomorphic abstraction in my mind and maybe the tiniest possibility that there is a god - an example of desperate measures... couldn't hurt to whisper something after all, especially when it gives substance to a sigh.

Isn't the ultimate evil the attempt to control others through force? But is God really part of the church? Or is the church a sham to make us think we are believing in a true god. I do believe in a God. I do not believe in the words of a church, but instead look for a meaning in the twisted words that actually makes sense. Is the bible really the word of God? Hell no, and it should never be thought of as such.

The romantic era poets believed that God was a presence felt all around us. I must say that they had a better grasp on God than any church goer does.

in my opionion.. god is only a figment of your imagination.
when a person feels lost and believes they cannot do/have anything.. its because the person is weak and they need someone to grab onto. there are times when i do that also... when im in trouble, i might talk to myself. "god, please ___yada yada ______".
you're doing nothing but talking to yourself.

another view on religion... many years ago the greeks believed in multiple gods. (zeus, hera, hades, aries) nowadays, people all view those as tales and do not take these gods seriously. so in a few thousand years people might say the same about todays religions.

there's also science vs. religion
how the universe was created, evolution, dinosaurs etc...
i'm a science person so of course religion makes no sense to me in this dept.

here's a question:
do you believe in life on other planets?
it would be pretty narrow minded to think that life only exist on earth.
do you think aliens believe the world/universe was created like you do?
....i'd believe they have a different explantion for it.

to wrap it up:
god is "someone" people look to when they feel they're lost and need help because they're weak and no one likes being alone. but doesnt actually exist. its human nature to not want to be alone.. so we create something thats not there and look up to it.

Are you saying that you control God and what kind of control he has on your life?

But God supposedly is omniscient and all-seeing, all controlling. God created everything and has a "purpose" for everything. Why would "God" create satan?

I don't believe in God. I don't believe in heaven or hell. But when I die, if there happens to be any of the above, I will gratiously admit I was wrong.

All powerful, not all controlling. There is a difference. He has all the power, but also all the knowledge to know when it is most useful to the universe as a whole as to when to use it.

God does not have a purpose for everything. He knows the possibilities and probabilities of all things, as he is all knowing. Therefore he can look at all the information and put out a best guess. Is he always right? No, be he's got a better track record than Zeus, Odin, or any of the other gods (which incidentally, I do believe other gods exist, I just choose not to worship them).

Why would God create Satan? For the same reason he created people. Did he create things to be perfect? He did not make Satan because he had the capacity for evil, but because he had the small chance of being good. And that was a chance he was willing to take. It might not have been the best gamble, but he took it. Now, throught a slow process, he is having to reclaim us one by one because of this gamble. And yet I still love him as I know he loves me. And he does so because if I wanted to go sacrifice infants, he'd have the attitude of, "What you do dissappoints me, but I will wait until you can better understand." I have the choice and the power because he created in me free will, and will not undermine that.

God is not the church. I don't know why people think this, but most of the attributes that the church gives God are those they have given him, not the ones he has. It's like waging war in the name of God. You would think, as a human, that if someone waged war in your name, you would do anything in your power to stop that person (unless you had given your blessing). However, if God stops you, he stops your free will, and that is the one thing he will not do. If he does so, he offends the argument that he has made against Satan: that man does not need someone to choose his life for him. God asks any who believe in him to explain that you have to choose him to be with him in his heaven. It is your choice, not his. It is your choice to ask him for help, likewise, because if you don't ask for help, he won't give it. This is because if he tries to meddle in your life by giving you unwanted "advice" this shows him trying to control you.

Satan wants to control you, not God. He also wants to show that the ends justify the means, and that "ethical" is a mere point of view instead of the yard-stick we measure our fellow man with. If something has 2 or more of these traits, consider the source. After all, one of the few truths that can be found in the bible is that even evil men can speak truth. The devil is similar in operation to the title character of Hook: he won't lie when he can tell the truth, because the truth is far to much fun. He will use twisted logic, circular thinking, and close-mindedness as tools to convince you that your way is the only way.



These are my current beliefs (though not all of them, it is a good chunk. I left out the whole soul thing for lack of an entire space devoted to a 20 page paper on my belief system. Hell, I'll be lucky if this doesn't bore most of you to tears.) as they exist right now, and I have been given, by God himself, the right to change them if I see fit. I do not think they are "right" inasmuch as I do not think they are perfect, but currently they work for me. That, my friends, is freedom of choice, my God given right.

"Best Guess" and "All Knowing" are not two statements that go together. If he is not always right, then he is not all knowing.

Likewise, if God is all knowing then how did he not know that satan would turn out evil? Would it be fair to say that since God created everything, he created evil along with good? Why not only create good?

Why does God give us free will? Why did he not create us only to do good?

I don't believe in god and thats all I'm going to say. Before I start a fight!

Out of curiosity, why do you believe in multiple gods and why, believing in them, don't you worship them?

Personally I go with this:
1. I exist
2. The world exists
3. I didn't make either of the above
4. Therefore someone else did (could have been a god, many gods, or we could be some alien kid's 3rd grade science project)

I like the idea of a creator who made the universe and then left us to our own devices.

All Knowing means that he knows everything. Since there is no such thing as fate, knowledge exists on the level of possibilities and probabilities. Therefore, all knowing is a statement that goes together with best guess. (And since knowledge is power, he is also all powerful. See how that works?)

I addressed Satan above, but to make a long story short, because everything God does, he does of his own free will. After knowing what that is like, how could he deny us a choice? He gave Satan free will, knowing he might be a bad seed. I think that if Satan were willing to just get some balls and say, "you know what God, I thought I could do better than you, but I can't. Sorry", God would say, "it's ok." Because he would be shown what Satan feels and thinks.

"Good" is a moral term. There is no such thing as "good" in a community sense, because good hinges on morals, which are the individual concepts of good and evil that resides in each person. Morals do not exist as a societal ruller by which we can measure everyone, because we cannot hope to apply thoroughly human concepts such as morals to such a broad cattegory as "all humans" Only ethics, the thing most or least benifical to you and your fellow man are aplicable to humankind as a whole. Under that idea, God has all knowledge about the possible ways to use his absolute power for ethical and unethical ways. He chooses ethical because in the long run it works better than unethical. He has learned this after trail and error (again, back to the fact that God is not perfect by our human definition of perfect, because our definition is tainted by morality). He then gave all his creations the same choice. We were created in his image. That is to say, our souls were given the capacity to uderstand the ethics of God, and the free will to choose, but we were not given the knowledge with which to use it. He put us into a situation where he said don't eat this fruit or you will die. He wasn't lying, and we've been dying ever since. What we seemed to not understand was that we keep on recycling until we get it right. Our souls, being energy, can not be made or destroyed, only converted into other forms of energy. If new souls must be born, God shifts energy into the form of a soul, a conciuosness that understands and thinks, but requires knowledge to be complete. He wants to see how we seek this knowledge because in seeing it, He can understand the value of such knowledge. That is to say, God knows that knowledge is a powerful force, but since he's had his from the begining, he might know what gaining knowledge feels like but he has never felt it. God can gain understanding, comprehension, but no more knowledge.

So in giving us free will and setting our souls upon a course where we continue living in different forms to gain not only knowledge but also understanding, he can come to know, through the link between us and him that is the "Holy spirit", what it is like to gain the knowledge he has (Which is the purpose of the holy spirit; that and to be our inner Ethics-o-meter). If God had given us only the capacity to do ethical things, he would never come to understand why it is that he does not feel compelled to do unethical things. He created us so that we could help each other. He gives us life, knowledge, experience and a form inspired by divinity, and we give him an understanding of just what he has always had.

If I can believe in my god, why can't I believe other gods exist? Isn't that like saying, "Earth is the only populated planet in the universe"? A little egocentric, don't you think?

As to why I worship "God" (Whatever his name really is) vs say, Odin.

Believe in "God" and that he understands your life, good and bad. Go to heaven, live forever.

Believe in Odin, party down in Valhalla until the end of the world, then die forever in a glorious battle. Unless you happen to be one of the 2 people that will be reborn after the end of the world (some tales predict more than just 2) and end up rebuiling the world without any divine influence whatsoever; exist without the love or light of your gods ever again.

I'll take God. His soul retirement plan's a bit better in my mind.

Just as a matter of interest/debate, maybe this has already happened... maybe there has already been some kind of existence and we are what came of that. If that were true maybe we ARE without divine influence or the light of [our] gods.

By the way, I'm just bringing it up as a point of interest. I'm not saying you actually believe it, especially since you clearly took God as your first team pick.

So would you say that whatever I believe about an afterlife is what will happen to me? That we are all correct in our beliefs?

I'm not trying to argue with you, just understand.

So, basicly, it doesn't matter that you're right or not.. it just matters that your soul is taken better care of when you die? I think that logic falls right into my 'teddy bear' statement.

What is right, how do you define it? There is no right or wrong, no good or evil. there is only the ethical representation of benifical vs. harmful. The more benifical something is to man as a whole, the better it is to do so. I do not feel the need to be "right" because I know I never will be 100% right. I also know i will never get rid of the human desire to be "right", so I combat it each day.

Perhaps you have no soul, Halx, because you believe you have no soul. There are people who have so convinced themselves that souls do not exist that they lose theirs. In that case, you will be nothing more than worm food upon death.

However, the true human being is the soul, what's inside, not this mass of flesh and bones. Our whole physical self is nothing more than a vessel, a jar. It is the part of us that is aware of our existance in the first place that carries on.

And Livia Regina, I do believe that all thing people believe in are equally true. Odin exists every bit as much as my God does. As do all things seen and unseen. It's one of the few things I remember from church that I still agree with. I believe in my God, how could I not believe that the other things exist to, or at least have a chance of existing. (before you ask, that does mean that, though I have no physical proof, I believe that all mythical creatures exist/could existin some form. I will continue to do so until it is proven otherwise.)

Hmm... I think everyone is entitled to what they want to believe in. You can try to evangelize to whoever it is, but its up to one's self to believe... or not to believe. If you want a reason for any religion, then what is faith? Religion is based on one's faith, isn't it? If there is a scientific or logical explaination for everything, I guess we will be God instead...

Can I be allowed to make a cheap post on this one? I just basically agree with Halx on this one, and don't feel like retyping it to change the semantics.

Thanks for typing it out for me.

Kalnaur, I just think you're saying things exist when they don't. You're saying they exist because the resolution is better if they do than if they don't. You're erring on the side of caution. To me, that's like telling someone who you know is doomed (fatal wound, illness, impending break-up, placed a bet in favor of the Miami Dolphins) that everything is going to be fine.

I mean, why even ask questions? Why even bother with something you can't even define? Sounds pretty pretenious to me... like an artist trying to explain to something why his little doodle is worthy of notice. I had a line in my signature for a couple days... I think it pertains to this discussion: Art is not genius in itself. It is convincing people that it's art that's genius. Take it even further and you see how humans are just mystified with sensationalized things: celebrity culture. Celebrities are no more perfect than you or I, yet they are regarded as outstanding human beings, given attention, money and praise without even earning it like WE have to.

God is just the ultimate celebrity. He's had a few millenia to build up his rep, too. That's pretty awesome for something that doesn't exist.

I think first and foremost you impress yourself. Then, it's not about impressing, it's just about doing right.

Most organized religion fills a need for people that they can't find elsewhere. They need structure or they need something to believe in to explain why they are here or what crap life has delt them. For many others, spirituality is something they foster within. In ages past and, I personally think to some extent, religion was a way for the "leaders" to control the masses. That's why, again, my opinion, the catholic church and many others developed with a strong political bent. There would be just one Christian religion if politics wasn't involved.

I am of two minds about this post. Firstly, I am not an atheist. That takes every bit as much committed faith as being a hardcore fundamentalist. Nope, I am an agnostic, so if it smacks of any superiority, it is the superiority of one who has figured out that both sides are arguing over nothing that can be known, and has opted out except for popping into debates such as this one with the latest "it could work this way - let's see who buys it".

Now, whether or not there is a god, I can see more reasons not to worship that to worship.

1) The inverse of Pascal's wager: There is more than one religion that claims to be the only true religion. Therefore, rather than a situation where there is even money of a reward or oblivion, there is instead a situation where there is at best a three way split between eternal happiness, nothingness, pain. Since there are many more than two mutually exclusive religions, the odds are on pain. I will not opt into that game. (Frankly I am with Halx on the one hand, and, on the other, believe the afterlife is the subjective eternity that happens in the nanoseconds to hours that it takes for you brain to shut down when it's all over.)

2) Occam's Razor. It is, lacking any evidence one way or another, simplest to believe that what you see is what you get. There is no need to posit an all powerful being to posit that you are here, it is now, and time seems to move from birth to death.

3) There really is no conflict between "echoes of higher brain functions" and "God the almighty". They could easily mean exactly the same thing. In fact, I am pretty sure that this is the case and has caused untold suffering and death over the millennia.

4) Back to Damnation/Wrath/Eternal Punishment. No god who incites its followers to do violence to others or risk eternal damnation is worth a cup of warm piss. No god that will burn a human soul for all eternity for eating a shrimp or laying with one of one's own sex, or touching the skin of a pig deserves my respect, let alone my worship. No god that will demand one sarcrifice one's son, or who will sacrifice its own progeny is anything that I care to acknowlege, let alone laud. If there is a prevailing air of arrogant superiority among atheists and agnostics, it is for this reason. Slugs worshipping the salt bottle, fish praying to the hook, lambs following the shepherd to the slaughter pen. How can one not feel superior when one opts out of an arrangement like that. There are Christians (who I respect) who claim that god is love. (Higher brain function, right there.) They don't seem to me to be the majority, and, even if they are, they surely don't seem to make enough noise to be one.

So that is my argument:
It is unneccessary, unfortunate, and unkind to follow gods. It is equally unnecessary to believe that there is not a god. There is nothing wrong with feeling superior about denying the whole shebang and just trying to live well.

i completely disagree that it is unecessary to not believe in a god. I believe I've stated my side quite clearly through several posts.

Hal,
The only thing of your post that I am endorsing specifically is your idea that our life after death consists of other people's memories of us. I was not clear about this, so it looks like I was trying to put words in your mouth. My apologies.

Halx, do you believe in ghosts?

One Large Pie?
 

I just take a step back and ask a few question, i am irish cath...which is totally different

in the times of greeks and romans, they used gods and goddesses as an explanation for the unknown (zues created lightning, etc) this became the basis of most religions, a basis for explaining the unexplainable.

people basically fathom religion because people need leaders, they also need guidelines for living life, and something to blame, and also thank in times of good and bad. This is another reason for religion.

It is also known that alot of religions have similar god-like figures, this could possibly mean we are all on the same level, just giving different names and meaning to the same general ideas and people.

In my own personal opinion i think the human mind is to small to view the inner workings of the universe as a whole, so religion is just a small section of the whole ideal. As in we are all right, but only on a small working part of a greater mechanism

its kind of hard to explain, but i will give it a shot

the whole idea of religion is one BIG pie, but the human mind has boundaries and we do not have the ability to understand all the interworkings of it.

for example, Buddist monks believe in reincarnation and acheive inter harmony, etc etc. But this is just a small section of what is really going on, they arent wrong just viewing a small section of a larger idea

Then you have Christians, who follow the word of God, and belief in Christ as saviour, now i cant go off and explain how this falls in line with Buddhism, because they are two different sections, but inner harmony is very similar to moral standards, stories of Noah and the Ark has about 7 different version, there is an extremely similar story about a man named G'nesh (sp? correct name?). These stories relate almost to the specific details, bird bringing olive branch, 2 of each animal, etc. So two different religions viewing the same story, but telling it slightly different.

thats about the best i can explain it, if you can catch on to what i am trying to say, here is the best way i can explain it: I dont settle for one explaination of religion, just for the simple fact that there is a basis for belief in all religions,so its in my best interest to view religion as a whole because they all seem to run along the same lines, and a thing as large as life, shouldnt be view with tunnel vision.

As for your friend, she has discovered something that gives her direction in life, guidelines, and mob-mentality has great sway on the mind, she sees others believing, so she begins to believe. Christianity has given her something to look foward to, something to believe in, something to follow, and something to work with, religion has filled a hole for your friend

Just want to jump in quickly with 1 or 2 short observations. There are a lot of ideas being tossed around that easily warrant their own threads, like the particulars of given religions, what are morals, God and Satan shaking hands and making up (huh?), etc...

What I took from Jaded's first post that really stuck with me is why is it that smart, rational people have to toss logic out the window in order to go to church on Sunday. If you are somebody that is compelled to find answers, to continue to learn new ideas in your life, work, and relationships - to evolve as a human race - how do you quit asking questions and accept carte blanch the story you were told and justify it with "faith"? Faith kills learning and pursuing new ideas out of fear that something may come up that won't jive with the all important story that's been told.

Could their really be a God that would judge people based on us questioning the very essence of spirituality? I mean come on, if he does exist his self-esteem has GOT to be better than that, no?

I respect religions, and do think when all is said and done they probably have done at least as much good for people as the bad they toss into the world in the name of themselves. But I can't respect faith. It is a cop-out and says "stop asking questions". And you can say we risk becoming "only worm food" for pursuing truth, I would wager you have sold your human spirit out for your story.

For what it is worth, I have read some of the most intelligent and logical arguments for religion and Jesus here at TFP. There are some very strong people with theology backgrounds who show up in the Philosophy Forums, and it's pretty interesting to read through the arguments. Cool. Thanks for the time.

No, Kalnaur, I do not believe in ghosts.

God.... if there is no God then i am forced to except the big bang.. i cant so i dont.

i believe there is a God. that created well everything. i was just going to narrow it down to "us" but really it has to be everything.

if there is no God and i choose to believe that there is. therefore i choose not to think about eternity whether it be me being worm food, or an angel, or a demon, or possibly a cat. and it turns out there is a God, well im screwed.

basicly the bible which is supposed to be Gods word says this. if you believe in me and ask me to be your Saviour i will. sure there are litteraly 1000's of "other rules" but the basics are believe ask worship .

as i was in church this morning we sang a song saying this. you are God thats just the way it is. and i had to really comprehend that. it is that way because God made it that way.

he wanted us to have a free choice which forces us to choose everything from is there God to what will i wear today.

i do not believe "us humans or this world" is or was or will be his 1st work of art. i do think we may be the 1st he has tried to convince that he was genius by creating us. i mean really create a world create people give them choice give them a guide ( bible) give them flesh (jesus) granted hes not here now but he was. ( if you believe any of the bible or religious things. let them decide if i am a genius or God. if they choose i am God then i am also genius.

i dont think "Christians" "condemn" non believers i think they just want to "save" them. part of that saving is telling them they are condemned.

if a church taught this: do as you want serve yourself believe in God but dont follow thru with anything else dont worry it will be ok you will go to heaven. ( i guess you could think about church as Gods "school".

but then as you converted they started with oh and then theres hell. dont worry about it what we said still counts but there is a hell and if you just decide to become one of us then you have to believe in hell and God. because you cant have 1 w/o the other. i think most people would be like yeah right. whatever. the church would essentially cancel out the good they were trying to do. so they are just upfront from the beginning. there is a God there is a hell. you choose 1. if you dont your defaulted into hell.

i dont nessacarily agree with that. but its basicly the deal. it goes back to choice. you have it. if you choose to believe in God or not to believe to in God either way you ARE choosing.

so i guess my synopsis is this when we were created we were given choice. along with choice comes faith.

i see about 40 people in this thread have already chosen 1 way or the other. i believe everyone chooses whether they acknowledge there choice as i and 40 others in this post have is another choice they make.

rfra3645 ... i cant read your post.. you must learn to separate your words into paragraphs.

However, your first couple sentences tell me that you are severely mislead. Nobody said you had to accept the big bang. Where did that come from?

The belief in a god to explain everything we cannot currently explain through science is like believing in Santa, the Tooth Fairy and thinking that Storks actually brought your little brother to your family.

The greeks made up myths to explain the things they could not explain through science. We are a few millennia removed from that kind of thinking, wouldn't you say?

as far being forced to accept the big bang ok maybe thats a bit extreeme.. yes halx yor right there are plenty of other options. that 1 was just at the top of my head. since the first post asked about your personal opinion i was giving mine.

ill make it plainer here. i have to belive in something. i choose to belive in God. others choose to belive in the big bang or buduah i have to confess i dont know much about this one. perhaps mohomed. some choose not to belive in anything. some to choose to belive in them selves.

im not here to convice my way is the best. i think it is but i highly doubt my banter could change your mind.

as far as just beliveing in science. im not so sure. that sounds like prove it or it cant happen.

forgive this secario but . 9/11 coudnt have happened because no proved binladen was training terrorists to fly.

obvioulsy we all know it did hapen.

i dont think we as a people are beyond using myths to prove stuff.

the way i see it our society is totally there.

we try to prove myths false in order to give meaning to.... i suppose evreything..

Wrong again.. you don't have to believe in anything. I don't. I just see things as they are and make decisions as logical extensions of my solid knowledge.

Your analogy about 9/11 is invalid. They found several flight schools where the terrorists learned to fly.

Myths are just that.. myths. Don't you know the defnition of the word?

they found the flight schools after the fact. my anaologie was meant to be said before the fact. if someone would have said someone will crash planes into building causing a war. i belive evreyone would have said no. that cant happen. then it did.


i didnt say you have to belive in something i said you have the choice what to belive. i also said it can be anything. you choose nothing.

myths are in fact this
a (usually collective) tale, fable, or dogma that unconsciously symbolizes the activities of the collective unconscious. Natural, intermediate stage between conscious and unconscious cognition. Like religious symbols, myths aren't invented, they arise from the unconscious. Example: legends of the "treasure hard to attain" symbolize the inward treasure of contact with the real Self we must struggle through so many issues to locate. Jung says myths describe inner reality more accurately than so-called scientific truths. They are a kind of therapy for the problems of humanity. They also let a person know what's going on in his unconscious

www.tearsofllorona.com/jungdefs.html



so if you choose to belive this deffintion it is your unconsious talking.

deffininton unconsious

unconscious mind: that part of the mind wherein psychic activity takes place of which the person is unaware

www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

if you are unaware then why does it become so widley belived?

what i hear you saying is that people belive myths becasue they cannot prove someting one way or another.

i say we as a civilesed society try to prove myths one way or the other. if no answer can be found we write it off as nonsense.

Taking the accute psychological examination route, eh? I'm the minority, therefore there must be something wrong with me?

I guess the world IS flat.

???

i think neither am i the minority

or the world is flat

youll have to do better....


really with a response like that in my eyes i won...

What are you trying to win? Seriously, I hate to get off topic, but please create full sentences in the english language. It's the only language I know how to understand. It's also evident that you did not understand me.

My remarks used sarcasm to insinuate that your logic was flawed and limited, once again. I was demonstrating that your logic would bring the logical conclusion that the world is flat, had it been applied 500 years past, when it was just a small minority who believed that the world was in fact round. The majority is not always correct, so do not rely on the testimony of billions of others to back up your story.

Sorry to sound defensive, that was not my intention, I understand an atheists point of view perfectly, I am not a religous person and I understand where you are coming from with asking to be called sir analogy because I disagree with anyone attempting to force their beleif on others, however I find athiesm can be a very closed minded view of the world and a lot of people posting their atheist views come across with a superior attitude to those who have their belifs..

My beleif is that since even with science we know so very little about our universe (and absolutely nothing about what lays beyond) the argument that god does not exist because he cannot be proved is a little futile, I don't like organised religion because I find it secular and exclusionist but i respect their beliefs and accept that they may be valid. Just becuase you are unable to have faith doesn't mean that those who have are in any way less mentally capable or gullible

well we both agree i didnt understand. as far as full sentences in the English language go. well i neither practice or use the English language. i guess that is my flaw.

as far as my logic being flawed i dont understand that either. what i hear you saying is that it is flawed because you dont agree. despite what billions of other have testified to.

i guess i still dont understand what you are saying. you have offered no science (something i gather you must have in order to draw conclusion) or hard proof hell even soft evidence of your argument that i think you are saying there is no God.

all i see is you saying my proof or testimony of others ie: bible isnt good enough for you. thats fine. im not trying to convince you.

you went so far as to say what i brought to this conversation was myth and could only be conceived as such. i offered deffiniton of myth that you asked for. and then you claimed my phscyological examination was a cop out.

somehow you got that i thought i was a minority of something? i dont.
(white male , blond hair, blue eyes) with the belief there is a god. i dont perceive either of those traits as minority.

anyway i have not offered the statement the world is flat. i dont see how you think my logic is referring to that analogy. my guess is this. you think that because i am having faith in the bible i am having faith in a complete stranger. and taking what they say as truth. somehow that is the same as the old world people telling Chris Columbus that the world is flat?

i believe he went to prove them wrong.

same as i belove that someday you will also be proven wrong.

will i be the one to do it know. do i have a closed mindset possibly.

do you in your opinion? that there is no proof so i cant be.

absolutely.

i guess if i was a strong charismatic type i would say i am trying to win you over for the good side. but im not. and if you choose to think the way you do . fine. i dont care. i was just offering my opinion on this matter.

yeah yeah im a typical high school drop out. not smart enuf to type and organise quality sentences or paragraphs. but i dont see that as a incredibly low side of life.
i could have no belief system whatsoever.

I think gods were mainly created for 1 reason: because we don't know everything. They are created to explain why we are here, what we are doing, the so called "meaning of life".

However science has never proven that anything like him exists. Rather than go on "faith" I need to see proof of something. Believing in something until it is disproven is false logic.

ok.. rfra3645.. you are completely misunderstanding everything I say. I would guess that's fairly inhibiting if you wish to join in a debate that's being held in a language that you do not use all the time.

aurigus, that was a short, sweet and to the point.

d*d, it's easy for ANYONE to sound elitist when they talk about their views, I believe your point goes both ways. However, it is hardly a reason to completely deny one line of thinking just because it's believers are very adament. What's this about organized religions being 'secular' ... the very definition of the word is the opposite of organized religion. Exclusionist? They would sooner have everyone in their church! Come on!

Look, the very simple basic thing here is that people WITH faith ARE gullible! They fit perfectly into the very definition of the word. You've used 3 words in 2 sentences which you cannot properly attribute. I really hate when these things come down to semantics, but if you really do believe in what you're saying, why don't you work a little harder at making your point?

Lots of my Christian friends complain about the churches becoming more secular. They are changing their teachings to attract more people. An example would be the female or homosexual Anglican priests. They aren't changing the Bible, they are just omitting things or explaining away the objections. That may have been what d*d was talking about.

That is what I thought. I am going to wager that you do not believe in anything you can't see. Thus I can not argue anything with you, because you do not have the same frame of reference as I do. I have experienced things in my life that are proof enough for me that there is more to this world than what we can see. I have felt ghosts, heard God, and seen small miracles that daily reinforce my opinion that God exists. However, I can no more use the experience and insight I have gained to try to inform you than you can persuade me that it does not exist.

I have obviously had things happen in this life that have not happened to you in any of your lives; so shall we just agree to disagree?

Well, I might contend that it's your frame of mind that allows you to perceive things to be out of the ordinary bounds of physics. Much the same way that you could convince yourself that a lie is true. Much the same way there are eye-witness accounts of monsters and magic from centuries past. Much the same way people believe Jesus talks directly to them.

Much as I might say that you are much to comfortable in your own ignorance to seek that which might be beyond the grasp of that which is physical. Especially since I am willing to admit that I might be wrong, yet you have no such preconceptions. I am glad that you have made up your mind, as have I.


Do you believe that people can heal others with a touch? That we can talk to other beings besides ourselves? Of course not, not until the flawed art of science tells us it is so. Your adherence to the fact that there is no god, of any kind, shows you to be a fanatic of the opposite side of the coin from those who kill for their god thinking it to be his will. You worship the man made quantification and qualification of science, or so it sounds. Please, show me I am wrong. Tell me you do not put all your trust in "facts" determined by a flawed race. I know i do not put all my faith in God; I have tested it many times and it continues to come out stronger, and becomes tempered because of ideas in science, not disproved by them.

There is a reason why all of that stuff gets served to us on television - because it's fantastic and implausible and it's great to make believe. I've never said that my logic is infallible... hell, I may be proven wrong one day - I could see it if it happened. I mean, if I saw a ghost when I was certain that I was in my right mind, I suppose I'd have to restructure my entire belief structure. However, do you believe that Siegfried and Roy actually perform magic? Do you believe John Edwards actually talks to the dead spirits on his TV show? Do you believe that David Blaine can actually levitate?

If you obsess about something, you will find it everywhere you look. If all it takes for you to feel god is a menial wish granted, then I suppose you'd be filled with faith at the end of every day. However, being easily pleased can add up to a lot of easy satisfaction and a LOT of dissonance.

I'd like for you to recount to me a time in which your faith was fulfilled. I'd like to know what was extraordinary about it, what you expected from it, and how it made you feel. Was it an instance or was it a period of time? Was anyone there to experience it with you? What kind of state of mind were you in during it all?

Let's stop being vague and let's start analyzing these things that build faith. Let's find out the genuine essence of faith.

Then I'd like to know why people always thank god when they do well, but never blame him when they do bad. I've never been able to figure that one out.

to quote one of the pastors at my church a few services ago....

"Oh Blessed Enemy, confounder of our myths, revealer of our ignorace."

Most serious theology going on these days is niether about fear or teddybearness.

That address is one of my most favored theological moments, not only becuase it's linguistically beautiful to me, but becuase it encapsulates the way in which God not only challenges us and moves us out from where we are comfortable, but also gives us the courage and love we need to leave our myths of isolation, sacred violence, and competitive relationships. it is certainly a far cry from being told to call someone "sir" for no reason. there are books in the Jewish tradition that have names for God for almost every occasion, and they are all tied to the actions for which we give thanks and praise. "because" is a shitty reason. but that's not why we're doing this.

we are doing this because something amazing has happened. as human beings, terribly prone to pride and violence and separation...we've experienced revelations, grown in love, become community. and we're pretty sure we didn't do it ourselves, so we look to see where our gratitude is due. it gets considerably more complicated from there on in, but that's the most accessible statement of ecclesiology i can write at this time of the evening.

you can throw as many perjoratives as you want...but you're not changing the fact that there is a great deal of religion that is self-critical, intellectually engaged, and challenging.

this is where i shake my head, with two reasons. the first is that it's obvious to me that Christianity has a serious PR issue...one that i need to constantly be working on. people don't get negative views of Christianity in a vacuum. they meet people who don't have a lot of theological education, and they meet people who are expressing toxic versions of Christianity. they are brothers and sisters in Christ, i am bound to love them. but it doesn't mean i have to be silent if they abuse of the teachings of Christ. my first responsibility is to the Gospel...

The second is that isn't cool to insult one's guests. It is perfectly fine to express disagreement, a difference of opinion, and that people have different observations on the world. But that was pretty much a personal insult. i'm not terribly upset...this is an online debate and i expect flaming. i'd just rather not have to expect that.

just saw this...much more productive. thank you.

you're right about easily fufilled faith...and there's a great deal of conversation with in Christianity about that problem.

one moment, selected because it was the most recent.

watching a documentary about the strike at the Brookside Mine...showing a group of miner's wives stand in the picket line, even after being shot at, and standing up to any and all authorities that try to pull them away. it was a pivitol moment for appalachia and labor in general...and they had the courage to protect their families from the abuse the mining companies were giving. low wages meant the kids went with out education. poor saftey standards left widows and orphans.

i had a feeling of profound resonance, knowing that this kinds of courage was Godly in nature. i can't say i expected anything out of it...i simply wanted to reflect in that moment, and the solidarity i was experiencing.

period of time was not long...the clip we watched was about 2 minutes, and i reflected for a few more.

there were other people in the room...i didn't ask if they were moved. i assume so, in different ways. one is an agnostic union organizer...i'm sure he had a reaction. my friend giving the presentation is quaker, and has talked about union organizing and her faith many times.

state of mind? reflective is the best word i can come up with...i was beign both drawn inwards to a calling to exhibit such justice in my own life, and outwardly in empathy to those who have suffered to show and create justice.

So this was a feeling that you attributed to god? I guess I'm missing the connection.

Was it the inspiration you felt? Was it the inspiration the miners' wives felt?

I can tell you that I've felt a little 'profound inclination' while observing such tales of others, but I have not attributed it to anything but my underlying will to be a good person. I guess I could call it anything and interpret it as anything. God is one of many options.

The lack of faith is by no means an empty existence. I am inspired quite like the rest of you, but I feel everything within me, wanting to get out. I know it's all inside me, but it needs the proper external trigger to pull it out. I'm sure the submission to a higher being would rest the pressure I feel on a daily basis to be a complete person, but I guess you can say I've chosen the long road. I'm here to discover myself and my power, helped by nobody.

So this was a feeling that you attributed to god?

perhaps not quite. in that moment i felt a profound sense of connection to God. would i have been moved otherwise? perhaps. not in the same way, i suspect.

"Was it the inspiration you felt? "
I was talking about my experience, though i strongly suspect that many of those involved in the original incident would describe it in religious terms. mining towns in kentucky in the 70's were fairly religious places.


"I guess I could call it anything and interpret it as anything. God is one of many options."

Yeah. One could...though i'd ask that that interpretation was a lens that actually helped see something. it would need to be thoughtful, ethically concerned, reflective, self-critical, and able to respond to life.

"I'm sure the submission to a higher being would rest the pressure I feel on a daily basis to be a complete person"
It could. Not the way i feel about it, but some people do use religion to stop improving themselves. I'd follow Barth in saying that such a religion is idolitrous, worshipping the incomplete human who has told the lie that it is perfect. Grace is a calling, not an answer. Grace demands response, initiates relationship, begins change.

“I once was lost, but now I’m found - was blind but now, I see…”

People with faith have compassion and respect for where other people are at in their own personal or spiritual growth.

People with faith are filled with grace, and able to exhibit forgiveness.

People with faith are meek, and will not argue, insult and fight to make their points.

People with faith are gifted, because they have something that is Divine.

People with faith love their enemies like they love their friends.

People with faith work towards peace with all who they come in contact with.


“Anger and bitterness hurts you more than your violator;
it poisons your attitude and imprisons your spirit.”

God is actually an apple. I'm sorry to disappoint everyone who thought otherwise.

Religion, politics, anal probing by aliens... it's all the same thing.

Just live life, god damn it. (all irony intended)

There's like 10^(10^(10^(10^(10^(10))))) atoms in the universe, or something like that, so that means that you have like a 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000
chance of coming into existence. How the FUCK can you not be grateful for that? Even if you have a shitty life, appreciate it, damn it, because at least you *have* life.

What's my point? I dunno. God or no God, you're alive.

these are the loudest voices
 

Compassion, indeed.

It angered Jesus, too!!!
 

Jesus's Anger Towards the Pharisees in Matthew:


How very shameful, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisees! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may become clean.

Disgraceful scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Shame, shame on you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, and you say, If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets. Thus you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, measure of your ancestors.
You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell?

(Matthew 25:34)

Just because some claim to be religious does not mean they are with faith or live through Him, sadly. Yet, this pattern of judgement, hatred and self-righteousness repeats over and over again.

Wow, I just read this entire debate. Good stuff people.

I was raised Christian. About the time I was in 11th grade, I decided religion wasn't for me. I never did believe in God. I didn't as a kid and I especially don't now. Save the gospel for someone else. I don't need someone, who grew up to believe that everyone needs to subscribe to their opinion, to preach to me.

Sorry pinkie, but it is hokey religious crap like this that has never made sense to me. I have faith. I have faith in myself. All the points listed above I have and I don't need a false sense of security, believing in a God, to reassure myself that I have faith in something. For that which I can't understand or explain, I look for a scientific or logical explanation. I don't fall back on the centuries old beliefs that things happen and exist because God made it so. The argument of Creationism and Darwinism is pure bulshit. If people can't see that we have evolved from lesser forms than ourselves are just plain naive. I am not attacking anyone who falls back on religion to explain what they can't explain for themselves. You go believe what you want to believe. I am at peace withmyself FINALLY because I chose NOT to continue to look for answers in something that doesn't exist.

wow i have faith and am the exact opostie of all these things.

i have never heard this but from waterboys input im guesing this is something people say.

wonder who belevis this... i suppose it could be true.. in a perfect world..

where is there a perfect world?? i guess well never know thanks to eve....

people with faith are gullibile. ok lets roll with this. for a minute.

once agian i refer to goolge for my deffinitions.

1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.
2. The assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of another, on the ground of the manifest truth of what he utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth. "Faith, that is, fidelity, -- the fealty of the finite will and understanding to the reason." Coleridge.

so what i see this defintion saying: if you belive somone based purley on there word and probable evidience you are using or enacting faith.

definiton probable: # [adj] likely but not certain to be or become true or real

deffinition gullible : [adj] naive and easily deceived or tricked

so what i hear you saying halx is that ( an example here) if lets say a juror sits in a jury box listens to 1 blind witness. say i didnt see but i heard smelled and could just tell that this guy went to the counter robbed and shot the desk clerk while talking on a cell phone. by the way he is now and was then wearing stetson the cologne.

the prosocuter provides no other evidence or witnesses. so if the jury finds this guy guilty based purley on this 1 person.

then your saying these 12 people are easilly tricked and decived.

i dont know i find that statement to be well verry unjust.. possibly childish. i dont know maybe thats not the right word. but since i am new here in the language ill let it slide.

this theroeticly happens evrey day.

i have faith so when you say you are a basiclcy good person i belive you. are you tricking me? your avatar graphic suggests possibly. i dont think so but i suppose anything could happen.


anyway im not trying to be petty i just am trying to understand what you are saying.

are you saying that only people with religous faith are gullible? or faith in general. i have faith that evrey week my wifes check will be deposited automaticly.

i also have faith that the Bible is a real transcrpit of His story.

wich case makes me gullible??

ps. i dont need and waterfront property in florida.

:)

Talking about Fred Phelps is about as helpful as mentioning Hitler. Pinkie makes a very good reply as well.

Not all who claim to be acting for God are. To introduce such an extreme example does not serve the debate at all. The next time someone says that Phelps is the loudest voice in Christianity, i'm going to claim Stalin is the most famous atheist. :rolleyes:

Regardless of what Phelps says and does, homophobia is clearly evident in Christianity. Does that represent all Christians? Of course not. Consider Phelps the black sheep of the family if you want to, but remember: he is still family.

alright.

Regardless of what Stalin says and does, mass purges of the peasantry is clearly evident in athiesm. Does that represent all athiests? Of course not. Consider Stalin the black sheep of the family if you want to, but remember: he is still family.

You don't need to tell me that Phelps hates me. I've seen his antics many times...and i greive everytime. but he's not a useful figure to debate. Christianity is NOT a monolithic entity. I know Phelps wants to define the debate, but i'm sorry. it's my church too.

I would say that this is more a reflection of how you view others than a statement of fact. It is the easiest thing in the world to say that people with faith are guillibile and naive. Don't you think that they understand the enigma of faith? Don't you think they understand the damning role science can play in one's spiritual beliefs? Don't you think they notice the misery, absurdity and injustice of life? Is the implication that people of faith lack intelligence, while atheists and agnostics are more intelligent?

I'm one of those who believes that the existence of evil in the world isn't any kind of basis to refute the existence of a higher power. The human experience runs the entire spectrum of conceivable situations: from absolute good, to absolute evil and everything in between, and Man alone is responsible for it all.

I admire people who have faith. They not only have their native intelligence and self-belief to help them along, but they also have the additional support of faith, in that which exists outside of themself. Since life is about relationships and getting along with others, I think this tends to give one a healthier, more complete and more useful outlook on life.

I like this....it says quite a bit.

If this is meant to express the attitudes of most Christians however, I would unfortunately have to take issue. Then again, these statements of faith would be missing from most people...not just a Christian.

My underlying issue with the proclamation of Faith by the God fearing sect, is the superiority many project because of it. Personally, I really don't care if one feels above another due to some perception of reality they decide to follow, but please don't attempt to refute my understanding of this world with information that has little Data to back it up. We all have a slightly different take on what is real, and what is fabricated. We all see the world with personal perception, and experience individual to ourselves. This is what makes for reality.

The above statement of Faith could be as easily used to express the attitudes of anyone who has attained some level of spiritual understanding, and is not a "Christian" thing.

Faith is a Human condition, Not a religious state of mind.