aktornado

So I keep hearing how AIDS is such an epidemic in Africa... All of these staggering statistics about how bad it is... and it really is staggering.

5 million Africans were infected with HIV in 2003

An estimated 25 million adults and children are living with HIV in Sub-Saharan Africa, and an estimated twelve million children have been orphaned by AIDS.

In 2003, 2.2 million people died from AIDS.

All this leads me to one question....

Why don't they just stop having sex? Honestly? WTF is wrong with them? AIDS rates are near 40% in some countries, yet they just keep on banging like bunnies. Does this just seem incredibly stupid to anyone else?

I know some of you will say "It's not that easy." But it is. If I'm in an area where 40% of the population has AIDS, I'm NOT having sex. Therefore, I won't get AIDS. If YOU don't have sex, YOU won't get AIDS. If no one has sex, NO ONE GETS AIDS!

Sorry if I sound insensitive, I know AIDS is a horrible disease, and we should do everything in our power to get rid of it, but honestly, if there's an epidemic in Africa, it's stupidity, not AIDS.

Redlemon

"After analyzing 20 years of epidemiological studies, he and his colleagues concluded that unsafe injections, blood transfusions, and other medical procedures may account for most AIDS transmission in African adults. Their analysis indicates that no more than 35 percent of HIV in that population is spread through sex." - Discover Magazine

EDIT: see aktornado's post/link below.

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Coppertop

Sex is not the only way to transmit AIDS, ya know.

Coppertop

Yeah, what he said.

superiorrain

You have to remember that they are not as educated as we are and simply don't know that not having sex is an answer. Not having babies to them would cripple their lively-hood, their kids once they are old enough wil start to work, collect water or whatever. They're more considered an assets and many people don't know that aids will be passed on. Like all things education is the key and even that won't be enough, it's a tough one and there is no one answer to solve the problem, it will be interesting to see what you people think on how to stop or slowdown the spread.

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aktornado

Don't believe everything you read.
Experts Confirm Unsafe Sex Main Cause of HIV in Africa

ObieX

Yea thats mostly it - they're just completely uneducated on the subject. There was a special on one of the princes of england (the not-so-famous one of charles) and how he is always going to africa and helping out the orphan and stuff. One of the things mentioned is that some people think that if you have sex with a virgin you'll be cured of aids. Because of this men have been raping children and even BABIES in the hope that it will cure them. They would literally rape little 1 year old girls. This is how uneducated the people are about aids on that continent, and that's just one example of whats happening.

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Redlemon

Interesting, thanks. For those of you who don't follow links, this is a direct refutation, a year later, of the article I linked to.

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aktornado

I just don't see how this is possible. How could they not know - by now - what causes AIDS? Even word-of-mouth should have done the trick by now. You hear the same story enough times in a row, you'd think it would start to sink in...

"Hey, Mfaala! So did you hear Kaaaja died yesterday from that weird bug that's been going around?"

"Yeah, real bummer. Hey, wasn't she seeing that Rjaaja guy from a few villages over?"

"You better believe it!" "I hear things were gettin' pretty hot and heavy if ya know what I mean!" *wink* *wink* "Actually wait... Didn't he die last week too?"

"Yeah, I think you're right... Huh, what a weird cooincidence."

Coppertop

Unfortunately misinformation can be passed along by the same method.

RolandGilead

As superrior mentioned, sex isn`t just for fun down there. Those people have to think about their future, they need offspring to survive. Why do you think they have such an overpopulation in all the poor countries, because they got nothing better to do?

thinktank

sadly there arent too many high-school sex ed classes in africa. I dont have any facts to base this on, but i'd be willing to assume easily transmittable diseases have similar contraction rates in poor and uneducated parts of our country.
edit:
In fact, i'd be very interested in comparing those figures.

Cynthetiq

ignorance isn't limited to Africa... people tend to think that it's not going to happen to them...

look at the teen pregnancy rate, STD transmission levels etc.

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maleficent

When AIDS first reared it's ugly head in the US and other non-third world countries, it wasnt immediately known what caused it. Later, it was the "gay disease". 20 years later some people still beleive that. 20 years later, some people still have unprotected sex.

In 1982, I sat in a biology lecture hall in college, hearing about this awful disease called AIDS, and you got it from sex. Well, at least gay men got it from sex, they never came right out and said it, but it was implied. We weren't gay, we were immune. 20 years later we know so much more and people still think they are immune.

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aktornado

Since when does making babies require you to have sex with more than one person? Please keep in mind that sex with one - and only one - individual will also prevent the spread of AIDS. It may not prevent you from getting AIDS, but it will keep it from spreading.

Coppertop

So you're saying person A can give it to person B and that's not spreading it?

[/confused]

superiorrain

How are they ment to know they have aids. Should they just popped down to the local hosiptal and have some test done?

"hey Kaaja just of down to the hosiptal be back in a few weeks, hopefully i'll get that far -long walk you know."

"Why you going?"

"Think i might have aids, cost me all i have to have the test done but well worth knowing right, even though i can't afford the drugs to make me feel better once it kicks in."

"Yeah know what you mean...knowing you're a dead man walking is always best thing to help you get on with your life."

"yep"

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maleficent

From what I have read, tribal polygamy is their way of life. Monogamy seems to be something created by Western culture... (and isn't always followed then)

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aktornado

Yes, as long as person A or person B do not have sex with person C. If you started now, and each person with AIDS gives it to one other person and no one else, and that one person gives it to no one else, the disease would eventually die off. (Except for other ways of transmission of course)

aktornado

Well then like I said, stupidity is the epidemic, not AIDS. Unless of course, they simply don't care that they're dying, which may be the case, I don't know. But if that is the case, then I don't see why we're sending them money.

Tex

http://www.time.com/time/2001/aidsinafrica/cover.html

read that...it talks about the exact question you are asking...

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Mephisto2

That's like saying "Why don't Americans just stop driving and no one would be killed on the roads."

It's not realistic and isn't going to happen.


Mr Mephisto

iccky

This kind of diologue really can't happen with AIDS. First people who get AIDS don't drop dead instantly. It takes years, as many as ten years, even in untreated people. Secondly you don't die from AIDS, you die from a disease your body can't fight off because its immune system is dead. So its very difficult to pinpoint the source of an infection or even tell for sure that one exists without extensive testing.

ObieX

yep, and even if you get HIV it isnt even detectable for like 6 months, so in that time you could be testing negative and spreading it around unknowingly.

HIV is the virus, AIDS is the syndrom it causes.

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kel

You meen the teen pregnancy rate and STD transmission levels that have been steadily falling for years in the USA?

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aktornado

If there was a 40% chance of me dying every time I get in the car, you better believe I would stop driving.

raeanna74

Except for the fact that if person A has HIV but is untested it can take years to really develop into AIDS. By then A has given HIV to B and A and B have given it to all of their offspring past present and future. Say there's only 3 children (it is common to have many children in African cultures). Then all those offspring mate with only one person each and badabing you got 8 people total who've got AIDS from just one person and a monogomous marriage.

Remember is many areas of Africa there are still those living in tribes, practicing tribal ceremonies, believing tribal superstitions, etc. For them, someone gets sick and it's an evil spirit has taken them. They're not SICK with a VIRUS.

Then consider with the more unsanitary practices in some hospitals and you spread it that way.

There's also the fact that primates can carry the Virus. What if you eat primates. This may be conjecture but if you don't prepare the meat correctly and cook it thoroughly or even at all. You eat raw meat of a creature infected with HIV - you got it.

There are more things working against the people of Africa. Poligamy, superstition, lack of sanitation, indigeounous animals that are carriers... I'm sure there's more than that even.

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timalkin

You've touched upon one of the most fundamental differences between conservatives and liberals: PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I know this may sound cold-hearted, but I don't give a fuck about HIV/AIDS, especially in Africa. The vast majority of people get HIV/AIDS by throwing personal responsibility out of the window and doing whatever feels good, then expect everybody else to help them out. Whether this disease is contracted through random sexual acts or intravenous drug use, individual personal decisions are the main culprits behind this disease spreading and doing such a good job at killing so many people.

I realize that some people get this disease through no fault of their own, but the numbers are so small that they are statistically insignificant. Diseases like cancer should always get a higher priority for spending over HIV/AIDS.

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timalkin

This assumes that children who are 10 years old or less can mate...

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aktornado

I'm not sure if that's all exactly true though. From what I understand (granted my knowledge of the subject is not too vast) the large majority of the infections come from unprotected sex, not passing the disease from parent to child, or any of the other reasons you list. The children aren't dying from AIDS (at least not many compared to the adults) it's only when they become sexually active do they become infected and die.

Mephisto2

There's not a 40% chance you will contract AIDS everytime you have sex in Africa.

Also, cars have seatbelts; AIDS has condoms.

Education is the key, not some pompous self-righteous declaration from a "first-world" country to an entire continent.


Mr Mephisto

Half Life

exactly


i say let it run its course

Lockjaw

So should we have just let it "run it's course" in the Western world and not at least try to educate people on what's going on? The money for the problem in Africa isn't going to be spent just on medicines but also education programs. There's a lot of stupid crap we as humans do to ourselves but to coldly say it's just your problem you figure it out is ridiculous.

Heaven forbid that something happens to the Western world that the 3rd world countries can help with and this karma gets repaid to us.

alicat

I was going to start my own thread because Hubby and I are leaving next Monday to South Africa (Johannesburg) for a month or more for his job and I may not be able to come to TFP in that time. This thread is good enough for my thoughts.

There are two points of why I'm afraid of going to Johannesburg. 1. Everything I read about the city refers to how crime-ladden it is. Don't wear jewelry, don't carry a purse, don't carry a camera, wear a money belt under you clothes (not a fanny pack or purse), only go out on the streets in groups (never by yourself and even couples should be wary), if you can help it-don't get a rental car because of violent carjackings that are rampent.

I'm literally scared to death to leave my hotel all day while Hubby is at work.
I realize these are alarmist views, but I can't find any recent info on the internet to refute them, even on the American Consulate web site.

My second point is from the reason for this thread. This I'm not as much concerned about, but still am a bit. 2: If Hubby or I get sick or injured in any way that either of us need a blood transfussion, we might receive tainted blood. As someone else said, the majority of people in Africa are uneducated and don't have access to sex-education. In this day and age you'd think that's impossible, but it is possible. A major undertaking by the worlds superpowers needs to take place to educate (and supply sexual protection) to third world countries where that is the last thing they think of beyond food, water and shelter. These people are living a primitive lifestyle, and therefore they react in a primitive way: survive first, procreate second, provide for and protect your offspring third. I understand all of this but am still afraid of the threats we might encounter while in South Africa.

I hope we thoroughly enjoy our stay there and I don't anticipate anything happening that is unsettling. If any of you fellow TFP'ers have been to Johannesburg recently, I'd really love to hear your input from your stay!! I am so excited by our "once in a life-time" opportunity that nothing can dampen my spirit, but I would still welcome any practical advice. Sorry if I'm high-jacking the thread, I thought this would be a better use of "server" space if I just tacked onto this one.

Ali

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Soggybagel

Though I read most of your posts I'm going to repeat what lots of you said already...just sheer ignorance. As odd and weird as it sounds its dead true. I just read a article on the bbc that said that lots of chinese people are getting aids through shared needles. Without any sort of formal education simple things like understand aids isn't actually so simple. Not only that but the man thought that just eating with his kids would give them the disease.

I also know that in Africa some feel that its really a conspiracy of sorts. They say that condoms actually give you the disease etc. Its really the lack of education. Sad but true. While it may seem obvious to us its not so obvious for everyone. To quote Men in Black which is not really appropriate, but still "1500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow."

That just points to our ignorance at times.

red_zinfandel8

right on - I think

K-Wise

This whole post just reeks of ignorance. It didn't even deserve any responses.

Asta!!

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WillyPete

I'll have to follow on and post the "IGNORANT" tag on most of these.

Africans have an inherent distrust of western medicine and policies. Any attempts at chastity smacks of christian exploitation and any attempt at condom use is misinterpreted as a policy of reducing numbers of black people.

Most of the deaths are assumed statistics. They won't know if Johnny in the remote village died of Aids related or natural TB without testing. Johnny's dead, so it's not worth testing.

They used to test all pregnant women admitted to Baragwanath hospital in Johannesburg until the numbers got to about 40% of all mothers being found positive. After that, it was considered to expensive to continue and every mother was from then on considered and treated as though HIV positive.

South Africa is the only country in the world where women can buy rape insurance in order to pay for the AZTcocktails to be taken after rape and suspected HIV positive sex. Think about what stats are required for a company to actually offer a policy like that.

African men are not considered or treated as adults until their ritual circumcision. This is done with other boys who have been living in the bush for about a month. all in the same ceremony. All with the same knife.
You might be a degreed professional who practices safe sex, but because johnny next to you got HIV a week ago, you're at risk because you need to be considerd a 'man' before you can marry a girl from a family of decent social standing within your tribe.

Many african men are expected to prove their fertility by fathering a child with another woman before expecting permission to marry.

Children are seen as wealth in a land where there are no pension or welfare schemes.

Many villages have been decimated by HIV along trucking routes through african countries. The drivers stop off in towns and have a 'girlfriend' at each one they prefer to stop at. The pay with gifts or other products. The 'girlfriends' have many of these visitors.

I had a transfusion in South Africa when I was 14. I lost a lot of blood after an appendectomy when the drip tube came out of the needle. I cannot donate blood in the UK. I would need a very comprehensive blood test before marrying in the US or getting life insurance to apply for a mortgage in the US too.

When I worked in Tranksei (Xhosa homeland) before the end of apartheid era, it was estimated that 1/3 of the student body at the University of Transkei was HIV+. This is the future of Africa.


However, on a very interesting point:
My girlfriend's dad runs an AIDS orphanage in South Africa to cater to the children that are cast out of their communities after their parents die. Most kids die from AIDS related infections before reaching their teens, but this is the surprising bit.
It seems that the numbers are changing. With sufficient help and good food and environment that encourages survival, a lot of these kids are sero-converting, where they have antibodies in their system (Which would set off a positive in most tests) but are NOT actually HIV virus positive. Just as if they had been innocculated.
(eg: most of us are have gone through a seroconversion of measles if we received the vaccine as children.)

This fact is gaining a LOT of attention from western medical companies.

Acetylene

Unfortunately many people who are new to conventional scientific education don't trust it like we do. They hear their missionary say "Sex causes AIDS" and they hear their local wisewoman say "But you can get rid of it if you rape a virgin" and who are they going to trust?

Not kidding, BTW, sex with a virgin is commonly believed to cure AIDS in parts of africa.

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