ARTelevision

Before you go all out and defend your intense universal and unflinching love of video games and the "right" of companies to sell whatever they want to whomever they want, step back and note we're talking about protecting minors here:

.................................

Ban on violent video games signed
The News Tribune - Tacoma, WA

Calling it a victory for parents and kids, Gov. Gary Locke signed an unprecedented bill Tuesday that bans the sale of certain violent video games to minors.

But it could be a loss for all state taxpayers, countered Douglas Lowenstein, president of the Interactive Digital Software Association, which represents video game makers.


Lowenstein's group announced plans to file a federal lawsuit in a couple of weeks to overturn the first such state law of its kind as unconstitutional.


House Bill 1009, which goes into effect in late July, will make it a civil violation to sell or rent to youths under age 17 video games that graphically depict violence against law enforcement officers. Violators can be fined up to $500.


That's a violation of the freedom of speech, said Lowenstein, predicting, "We're going to prevail. And unfortunately that's going to result in Washington's taxpayers spending money on litigation that could have been spent on other programs."


Groups representing students, pediatricians, schools and police supported the measure. Retail and rental stores and the American Civil Liberties Union of Washington joined Nintendo and Microsoft in opposing it. Neither of the two Washington-based corporate giants make video games that depict virtual cop killing, but representatives from both joined Lowenstein in a recent meeting at which they urged Locke to veto the bill.


Lowenstein's group expects additional plaintiffs to sign on to the suit. If the group wins, it'll ask the state to pay its attorneys' fees, which could top the hundreds of thousands of dollars the industry is investing in challenging a similar county ordinance in the Midwest.


State Rep. Mary Lou Dickerson, a Seattle Democrat and prime sponsor of the bill, predicted the law will be upheld.


"I believe that (video games) are not covered by the First Amendment. And even if they are, the safety of children always trumps the First Amendment," Dickerson said. She noted that a growing number of studies link playing violent video games to aggressive thoughts and behavior in children.


"While the legislation is being defended, it will create numerous opportunities for parents to learn about ultraviolent video games," said Dickerson, whose crusade against digital violence has landed her on National Public Radio's "Morning Edition" and the pages of The New York Times.


Lawmakers from other states have contacted her for advice on passing similar laws in their states, Dickerson said at a post-signing party featuring a big chocolate cake with "1st in the nation" written in its icing.


"So video game industry, look out," she said, though she stressed her intention is not to hurt the booming industry.


Lowenstein said the number of games affected by the bill is insignificant. "The issue is much bigger than economics," he said.


The lawsuit will be intended to get other states to think twice before pursuing similar laws, he said.


Connecticut Gov. John Rowland vetoed a bill limiting the sale of violent video games, Dickerson said, and Locke, before signing the bill, seemed mindful of the issues surrounding it.


"There's a lot of concern about the constitutionality of this legislation," he told youths and television cameras gathered for the occasion. "There may well be a court challenge. And if there's a court challenge, let's hope for an expeditious, prompt ruling."


If there is a court ruling, it won't be in the state's favor, warned Jerry Sheehan of the ACLU of Washington, who asserted the law violates the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.


"It's been challenged successfully by the software industry every other place it's been passed," Sheehan said.


But Dickerson said she studied those efforts and crafted the bill so that it would avoid those problems.


Though other state lawmakers urged her to expand the bill to include more types of violence, Dickerson narrowed the language to violence against cops to make it bulletproof to challenges.


But, in doing that, Sheehan said the law engages in what's known as content discrimination: "They're saying (violence) is not wrong all the time, it's only wrong when we say it's wrong."


The video game industry has developed its own voluntary rating system, similar to the one used to rate movies. Lowenstein said it eliminates the confusion retailers could face in trying to figure out which games are covered under the new law.


While Dickerson and other child advocates point to surveys in Seattle in which retailers sold games with violent content to kids, Lowenstein said his group's surveys have found that it's mostly parents buying those games for their kids.


"It's very disappointing that people are trying to shift the responsibility to retailers to become parents," Lowenstein said.


He added that Locke refused his offer to join dealers, manufacturers and parents in a pilot program based on the rating system "to use Washington state as kind of the laboratory to develop effective systems of retail enforcement that might be used in other states.


"And unfortunately, instead of working on this broader effort, we're going to be in court."

...............

At some point I'll need to make the case again about how popular culture is destroying our minds. I will, of course. It just gets demoralizing when I see what a minority of one I seem to be in all this.

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MrFlux

I don't know about the U.S. but in New Zealand, the ratings use exactly the same system that videos/dvds etc. use. Off the top of my head, GTA3 is an R18 (that's restricted, not recommended) game, the rating is based on violence, coarse language, and sexual themes. I absolutely support restricting violent games, to a certain degree.

The first ammendment seems to create more problems than it solves... sorry to any patriotic constitution worshippers out there, please don't beat me.

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Glory's Sun

I agree that the games should be restricted but only to a point. In most cases I would think that by age 15 the kid knows that it's wrong to shoot a cop. If the game is violent or needs a mature rating they should include a disclaimer at the start of the game saying the game is fantasy and it is not to be taken seriously and not to do anything in reality that mimics the game. Something to that degree. I know that as far as music goes you can buy a parental advisory labeled cd easily no matter your age. They should put the same ban on music as they are video games but lower the age a bit. 17 is a little high IMO

Midnight_Son

Yet another way for our fearless leaders to come into my home and tell me what to do. I feel it’s the parent’s responsibility to look after their kids, not the US government.
Yes I have kids, I have two. I don’t think Gov. Locke knows them any better than I do.

Art, I must say I’m honestly a little surprised your behind something like this, I’ve seen your pictures and read your posts….you’re an artist and a thinker….does this not strike you as just another form of unnecessary censorship?

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hrdwareguy

I don't see anything wrong with this either. We prevent minors from going to R rated movies by themselves, this is just the next step. Nothing here says the parents can't buy the game for the kids and let them play it.

I was at Wal-Mart the other day and a kid in front of me wanted to buy an R rated DVD. When asked for his ID, he couldn't produce it, when asked his date of birth, he couldn't remember it. Needless to say, he didn't get the movie. To many times kids are going behind their parents backs and buying things. This is just another method to help protect minors from parents that don't seem to be overly involved in their own kids lives.

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Midnight_Son

next step, ok but theres a long line of people waiting to put more steps on top of this one. there's no end to it. I totatly agree we have to protect our kids....but at what cost? ya, this is a minor thing but minor things lead to bigger things. we've all seen it happen.

and here's another point, sheltered kids a nieve kids. I know this is "alittle" off topic but it's true.

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Prophecy

Most stores already follow the ESRB and don't sell mature rated games to minors. And I truly don't think this law is going to stop kids from getting their hands on the games. Most kids have their parents by the games for them in the first place. I've seen plenty of adults in Babbage’s, Wal-mart, Toys-R-Us, etc. buy games for their kids just because the child wanted it. They didn't even bother to look at the rating. To prove my point I'll take GTA for an example. This game caused a lot of uproar over its content. However, I've seen one lady walk into Babbage’s with her son, I guess he was about 10, and proceed to buy the game for him. Yes, she knew the game was violent and she really didn't want him exposed to it, but her logic was if she didn't buy it he'd just play it at a friend's house and she'd rather have the child at home. Go figure. This law is going to making getting the games to younger kids a little harder but not much. For another example, how many people here have bought tickets to an R rated movie for some else underage or had some else buy tickets for you while you were underage? I can promise you that if some kid has $55 dollars for a video game, and tells someone that if they buy the game for them they can have the $5 extra dollars someone is going to take them up on the offer. So in conclusion, grandparents will still buy grandkids whatever they want for their birthday without knowledge of what they're getting, mothers will be angry at the games released and its content and kids will still get the violent games they've wanted. This law is just superficial and it’s something to make the lawmakers look good.

yes, i may have repeated somethings in the article but its the truth...

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ARTelevision

cnor,
Your questions have been asked by many of my friends - especially lately.

I'll begin now (in my next entry) to address the apparent contradictions between my positions and my life in my journall.

For now:
I believe hyper-violence, corrupt worldviews, and the advertising, promotion, and sale of sociopatholoy are epidemic in what is commonly referred to as "popular culture". At some point, they destroy human freedom. That is the freedom issue that's most important - our freedom to think as individuals without being subjected to manipulation that is stronger than human willpower.

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Midnight_Son

Art,

I understand what your saying, and I think much of the difference in view points on topics such as this has a lot to do with peoples current environments. I look at things differently than say someone from a big city.
I live in rural America…cops don’t get shot, kids (generally) listen to their parents, and crack is some drug they talk about on TV. So to me…I hear about ratings on video games and I’m not sure whether to be pissed about my wasted tax dollars, or frightened about what I perceive to be the government slowly tightening it’s grasp on my individual freedoms…so slowly that no-one notices until it’s to late

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warrrreagl

If a parent does the right job of raising a kid properly, there's not a video game out there that will entice them to shoot somebody.

Conversely, if a parent does a crappy job, then all the bans and laws in the world won't prevent a kid from being an asshole.

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Prophecy

so in effect everyone who plays first person shooters is the result of bad parenting? and do you mean shooting someone in real life instead of video games?

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La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

warrrreagl

I'm not going to fall into the trap of "but you said every single person." Of course there are going to be exceptions, but my general feeling is still the same; kids who are properly raised to know right from wrong don't turn into psycho killers. And asshole kids raised by mega-asshole parents won't be thwarted by goofy age limits on video games.

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krwlz

I would like to point out that the most violent tv program out there is looney tunes....yup it is...And the generation watching that never went out and killed people in elemantary school...I think any "protection of minors" should be done by parents who obviously are not doing their job, if the kid can't seperate a game from reality...

just my opinion.

ARTelevision

looney toons are not as violent as hyper-realistic or hyper-surrealistic high-technology violence that is produced with the intention of exaggerating every sensorial aspect of violent acts, such as extreme blood letting, gore, and flesh-and-bone crunching sound.

If you aren't willing to discuss degrees of these issues - we are stuck with a very polarized situation in which there can be only minimal dialog.
...........................................................................................

until one is prepared to admit that there is something desensitizing and debilitating about the games one loves to play and the movies one loves to watch - and until one is willing to discuss what impact these and other forms of brainless packaged sociopathology may have on other people who are not as superhuman as oneself in the ability to transcend such influences - we are at an impasse.

It doesn't seem particularly illuminating to say exceedingly simple things like, "the parents aren't doing their job" as if it was the end of the discussion.

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butthead

I doubt I would mind if I were a minor (unless it meant I couldn't play violent arcade games too), but what is the point of this? Reduce violence? I think it might be a little effective at reducing minors from playing violent video games, but not very significant in the greater scheme of change. However I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong. I think many of the video games, movies, and tv programs I've have experienced have desensitized me a little bit (I still remember playing Police Quest 3 as a kid and seeing this broken and bloodied body of a child in a dumpster within the first minute of playing, I was pretty freaked out), but I do not have much of an idea as to their overall impact.

Does anyone have any actualy studies on this issue that I can check out? I mean actual studies, not articles of someones interpretation of the study.

cchris

My Son will be just like me one day.

I have the patience to make a decision based on my ability to be a Parent.

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Prophecy

Forget the "everyone" part, I was asking if you were saying that video games cause kids to go out and shoot people.

Your right video games, movies and other media can be desensitizing, but it can also have the exact opposite effect. But being desensitized doesn't make people walk out and shoot other people. Yeah, I’m used to seeing drugs and I’m used to seeing people shot, that however doesn't mean that I'm going to take drugs or shoot some else. The fact is parents aren't doing their job. It is still the parents/legal guardian's job to teach their children right and wrong. Once you have children your main focus should be to teach them morals and values. And to add to what warrrreagl said, kids have to be taught more than just what is right and what is wrong. If simple understanding of right and wrong was all it took then there wouldn't be any crime. Children have to be taught that there are repercussions for there actions, they have to taught respect for their fellow man, respect for life in general, and they have to be taught the difference between video games and reality. They need to made to understand that life doesn't have a restart button or a continue option. Again, they need to learn to value things like human life. I love violent games from 1st person shooters to fighting games, I think there fun, does that make me a violent person or want to go kill someone? Not in the slightest because I was raised to know about values and morals. Sadly some of the kids today aren't raised to know the difference or aren't raised by parents at all but by the television.

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Magpie0001

Yes, Of course, Its video games thats making kids violent.
Not murder in the streets, terrorist attacks, war, guns every direction you look, domestic voilence, gang wars, police brutality,
Its the video games... & Heavy Metal too
In fact lets start a petition to forbid, under penalty of public hanging, everything except The Care Bears & Barney the Dinosaur. That way we can be sure to prevent the warping of our childrens fragile impresionable (sp?) minds.

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BBtB

Of course there is a major glaring ommision in this article and Art's argument. Yes it is true that if you are raised by tv and violent video games that CAN have a negative impact on you. But you shouldn't be raised by video games and tv. You are SUPPOSED to be raised by your parents. The problem is all the half assed (And less) parents out there who just want to send their kids to public schools were they are brain washed and then comming home and watching tv and playing on the computer without any real human interaction. The problem with anyone who tries to make a connection between violent video games is they ignore the MILLIONS of Adults,Teenagers AND childern who all play violent video games and then never commit a violent crime. What about street gangs? I would say they are probably the ones I would worry most about shooting a cop. I have met a number of gang members in my days. One thing I have noticed is most of them don't watch very much tv or play very much video games. Which is not to say they don't play any. Thats typically how I meet them. At any rate what it all boils down to is that it dosn't matter what limits they point on .. well any form of media. For one its not the cause of the problem in the first place. And two even if it was parents (or the kids on their own but that is rarer) will work around the laws.

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"I would like about three fiddy"

WhoaitsZ

I agree, and have for years.

[/b[

I applaud them for doing this. If they only try to restrict it for kids. We started putting warnings out about adult content (graphic violence) since 98 or so but the public, once again, chose to ignore our warnings until the shit hit the fan. What did the people do when they realized what all happens in some games like GTA3 or Postal? They wigged out, the blamed the companies for irresponsibility, congressmen (Liberman) has tried to ban them. if people would quit playing the "LLALALA LALAL LALAL I CAN'T HEAR YOU" defense, it wouldn't be such a problem now.

why do so many groups of people not react responsibly until its too late, then blame the people who beged them to heed the warnings?


I do not see how barring minors from certain materials can be considered violation of free speach. I love kids and I support them when they are having family problems, but in my mind, you don't vote until you're 18. you have some rights... but not many.

[/quote]

Quote:

Lowenstein's group expects additional plaintiffs to sign on to the suit. If the group wins, it'll ask the state to pay its attorneys' fees, which could top the hundreds of thousands of dollars the industry is investing in challenging a similar county ordinance in the Midwest. State Rep. Mary Lou Dickerson, a Seattle Democrat and prime sponsor of the bill, predicted the law will be upheld.

if i knew the money would not be wasted by the governmant I'd say BOO on wasting tax money. but our current blind, deaf, and dumb leaders are blowing billions anyway.

Quote:

"I believe that (video games) are not covered by the First Amendment. And even if they are, the safety of children always trumps the First Amendment," Dickerson said. She noted that a growing number of studies link playing violent video games to aggressive thoughts and behavior in children.

AAAANNNCCCHHHHH! wrong answer!
Video games ARE speech. video games can represent lifestyles and reflect real culture. they're wanting to play the 'one bad apple makes them all bad' card and that is censorship and evil at its possible worse.

Quote:

"While the legislation is being defended, it will create numerous opportunities for parents to learn about ultraviolent video games," said Dickerson, whose crusade against digital violence has landed her on National Public Radio's "Morning Edition" and the pages of The New York Times. Lawmakers from other states have contacted her for advice on passing similar laws in their states, Dickerson said at a post-signing party featuring a big chocolate cake with "1st in the nation" written in its icing. "So video game industry, look out," she said, though she stressed her intention is not to hurt the booming industry.

... "So Video game industry, look out'?
is she dumb?

the industry has been screaming to parents about their content. she needs to address the parents!

they are the people who've covered their eyes or stuck with the 'my kid can play it cuz he's super mature!'. give me a break. for once in our short lives, can't the right person take responsibility and let us stop these witch hunts?

Quote:

If there is a court ruling, it won't be in the state's favor, warned Jerry Sheehan of the ACLU of Washington, who asserted the law violates the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. "It's been challenged successfully by the software industry every other place it's been passed," Sheehan said. But Dickerson said she studied those efforts and crafted the bill so that it would avoid those problems. Though other state lawmakers urged her to expand the bill to include more types of violence, Dickerson narrowed the language to violence against cops to make it bulletproof to challenges.

that's kind of fucked up. they are literaly saying "it is okay to kill people, but don't touch the cops.'

another way of saying "give me what I want and to hell with fairness and liberty."

Quote:

But, in doing that, Sheehan said the law engages in what's known as content discrimination: "They're saying (violence) is not wrong all the time, it's only wrong when we say it's wrong."

told ya! (i'm reading the article as i nitpick)

Quote:

The video game industry has developed its own voluntary rating system, similar to the one used to rate movies. Lowenstein said it eliminates the confusion retailers could face in trying to figure out which games are covered under the new law. While Dickerson and other child advocates point to surveys in Seattle in which retailers sold games with violent content to kids, Lowenstein said his group's surveys have found that it's mostly parents buying those games for their kids. "It's very disappointing that people are trying to shift the responsibility to retailers to become parents," Lowenstein said.

am i the only one seeing a trend? blame one group....

it sounds to me like someone needs to go to Seattle and kick some booty.

if you are an employer of a workplace with a policy saying "Do not sell to minors", then they should be fired. don't bother innocent people out of laziness of another.

Quote:

He added that Locke refused his offer to join dealers, manufacturers and parents in a pilot program based on the rating system "to use Washington state as kind of the laboratory to develop effective systems of retail enforcement that might be used in other states. "And unfortunately, instead of working on this broader effort, we're going to be in court."

hmm... unforunately it will go to court. imagine that.. laws.. and court... in the same sentence.... that seems so right. i wonder why....

...............

At some point I'll need to make the case again about how popular culture is destroying our minds. I will, of course. It just gets demoralizing when I see what a minority of one I seem to be in all this. [/QUOTE]


right. see, this makes me feel really weird because i am definatly taking a popular stand here. oh well, i am me and that's all i have to be.

it actually saddens me in a real way. not just an irritation, this actually adds to my real depression because it shows how little people care and are willing to listen and take responsibility.

this country is ran by people who want to only take a stance on an issue or make blame by pointing fingers at other people.


I'll have more to say soon. please post some replies. there's only one way to change the system, and staying silent isn't an option.

ARTelevision

My argument doesnt have an ommision because I have not framed an arguiment.

What I am posting are my experiences in living on earth and my opinions. I am also posting selected news stories - which are not intended to illustrate my opinions. They are meant to supply information on the topic.

This isn't an argument for me. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Instead, this is what I'm trying to do:

Tell you that my experience has made it clear that the contents of much of contemporary film, video, music, games, etc. are psychologically desensitizing and debilitating and constitute a form of manipulation. I also state that in my experience, most humans are not able to overcome these influences to some degree, especially younger members of our society. Therefore, much mass media affect most of us in some measure of negative ways.

These are small statements. My intention is to see if anyone will admit they see some of the same issues - to whatever degree they want to state.

Of course, I see how polarizing the mere mention of this can be. Of course, I see how extremely defensive fans of popular entertainment get when I state these simple experiential observations of mine.

I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I don't make laws. I don't even vote. I'm simply stating some things I see as problems. I'm fascinated at the extent of irrelevant issues that are brought to bear and that I am somehow expected to refute - as if this was a debate.

Sorry, I'm not debating. I'm stating some things I observe. If you don't see anything in what I'm saying, that's the end of it. If you do, then we can discuss these things further.

As mentioned I do not necessarily share the points made by the articles I present. I present them because they are interesting and have some relevance to the topics at hand.

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Prophecy

the debate is half the fun

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E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

WhoaitsZ

sometimes the truth hurts.

I won't beat you, i give you a standing ovation. honesty is rarely seen.

The Problem with the FA isn't the ammendment itself, it's the fools who want to use it to control other people.

the problem America faces right now has been going on for years.

we've managed to get so involved with Right and Wrong, Black and White, Gay and Straight, Conservative or Liberal that we can no longer know what our points are. we are being blinded. Political Correctness has gone so far that people have become hypocritical philosphers. we have learned ways to blackmail each other, to conive to be The Right One.

we've lost our sight of what the country was supposed to be for. it was created so we could disown Monarchy and have freedoms to do as we please short of harming others.

almost immediatly we lost sight by creating political roles. not long after we owned slaves, totally going against the reason we were here. thank God some people had the balls to stand up and say "You cannot "own" anyone." we actually said 'enough is enough'. We, Americans!, actually said "No sir. your are violating a person and we will not stand for it."

now days if you are not PC you an loose your job, your life. I have a loud voice and sometimes I know i should chill out and back off some... but i fear if i do then i will convert to the silent massess... someone has to speak up.

man, i'm tired. I've worn myself out.

I like where this thread is going... post more thoughts, guys.

oh and Art: I understand perfectly
i'm not wanting an argument. speak to us. your insight is most stimulating!

I will post later. I need to rest, my health is not so good today.

krwlz

I would tend to agree that it does in deed desensitize people, but so does the news for that matter. What I am saying is that it should not make some kid want to kill people in real life, if his/her parents did their job. They ought to know that line between make believe and reality.

Also if they are young enough where knowing this line is unreasonable to expect...then it is still the parents fault for not preventing their viewing/playing.

I love those shoot 'em up games, I practicaly grew up on them...I havnt killed anyone yet...nor even thought about it as a possiblity for any other reason than self defense. In reality, I don't think I could kill someone whithout very very good motive.

I hunt as well, and to tell you the truth, I love hunting, but every time I pull that trigger, regardless of whats on the other end of the gun, I ask myself if it is worth taking the life of this animal. A lot of times it is, once in a while it is not. I like the hunt, and the meal, not necesarily the kill.

guthmund

I don't see the big deal in limiting what a minor can and can't buy. We limit the types of CDs the kids can buy, or at least we do around here, with the explicit lyrics stickers, we set age limits on what movies they can go to, we set age limits on buying porno, and we set age limits on smoking and drinking.

True, there are instances where the kid's going to get it one way or another, but you don't leave the liquor cabinet open just because they're going to get into it eventually.

I just fail to see the argument. If we prohibit minors from getting flagrantly violent video games, what then? Is it such a slippery slope? Does it open the door for legislation ensuring anyone under the age of 16 can only listen to Barry Manilow?

Get a grip.

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krwlz

Part of it is that I fial to see the reason to limit the age at wich kids can buy video games. Part of it is that I hate to see any legislation go through that even had the slimest chance of not going through....we have enough unenforced laws already, how bout we enfore those (most of them) and quit making new ones for a bit.

warrrreagl

Although my wife will completely agree with you that my thoughts are exceedingly simple, I said exactly what I truly believe; illuminating or not.

I was an elementary school classroom teacher for 12 years, from 1986-1997, and I've seen from the trenches that too many parents are emotionally terrified of their own children. Those parents are too selfish and self-absorbed to be having children in the first place, and they end up a complete disaster as a parent. And the kid suffers. And then we all suffer.

The next time some pimple-faced goofbag shoots up the school library because his girlfriend broke up with his sorry ass, pay attention to who the news media interview. You'll see them parade through the opinions of their neighbors, their family, their friends, their co-workers (if any), and they'll all sing in unison, "He was such a good boy, and this is a total shock."

The one person you won't see them interview is the kid's elementary school teacher, because he or she will say, "Hell yes, I knew that asshole would end up like this. The kid was an asshole and his parents were mega-assholes. Instead of telling the little prick 'No' once in a while, they were infatuated with his self-esteem. So I guess he must have had buckets of self-esteem when he sprayed bullets all over that classroom like that, huh?"

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krwlz

good point...very good point

anleja

This is part of a newspaper article I cut and pasted. Its from November, about an event that happened about 6 blocks away from my house. I apologize in advance for the length.

"Police curious about similarities between deadly beating and video game"

In his blue race-car slippers, 4-year-old Tyler Robinson's focus is on the big-screen TV, where "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" takes him to a sinister world.
It is one of his favorite places to go after preschool.

Armed with a PlayStation 2 controller, Tyler becomes a gangster who runs down pedestrians with a car then gets out to pound them with video fists. He can even shoot cops and prostitutes with make-believe Uzis.

It was at Tyler's Wyoming home where fantasy may have brushed up against reality.

Two men accused of running down Jerry Steinberg with a car, then beating and kicking him into a coma, visited the boy's home about two hours before the Nov. 17 attack.

They had spent part of the previous night drinking beer and playing "Grand Theft Auto III" at another Wyoming home, friends and relatives of one of the suspects have said.

After attacking Steinberg, they played the video game again, police were told.

Meanwhile, about five miles away, Steinberg's family gathered at Saint Mary's Mercy Medical Center, where hospital monitors surrounded the slenderly built man.

Doctors told them Steinberg had less than a 10 percent chance of survival. The 38-year-old father of three died six days later.

Wyoming Police Lt. Paul Robinson said detectives are intrigued by the possibility that Brian Davidson, 24, and his alleged accomplice, 18-year-old Michael Emery, of Kentwood, were playing out a scene from Grand Theft Auto. Steinberg apparently was an arbitrary victim -- in the wrong place at the wrong time.

"It certainly is an interesting twist," Robinson said. "You can certainly see the parallels."

Considering the violence of today's video games, Robinson said, he wouldn't be surprised by such a link.

"When we were kids, we played cops and robbers, and we always wanted to be the cops," he said. "The cops were the good guys. Look at what this game portrays. The good guy is the killer."

The men charged with killing Steinberg last month embraced the games -- as did friends and family, according to those who move in their circles.

Indeed, similarities between the game and what happened to Steinberg are uncanny, police say.

In the game, players use cars to run down pedestrians. They can choose the "fist" symbol to beat victims, leaving a bloody body on the sidewalk or street.

It sounds a lot like what happened to Steinberg shortly after 5 a.m. on Nov. 17, police said.

Davidson was driving his dark blue Honda Accord, police said, when he and Emery saw a potential target: a Press carrier delivering Sunday's paper on a bicycle south of 36th Street near South Division Avenue. She apparently was spared because somebody in the car knew her.

Next they spied a couple strolling through a restaurant parking lot. As the Honda raced towards them, the couple jumped to safety, police said.

Then there was Steinberg, riding his bike on Walter Street, just east of South Division. The Honda slammed into Steinberg, police said, sending him to the ground. Steinberg was unconscious when his attackers returned a short time later, now joined by two females.

But this was not a mission of mercy -- the men and one of the girls, 16-year-Natasha Toothman, took turns stomping and punching Steinberg, police said. He suffered at least 20 blows, fracturing his skull, breaking his nose and four ribs.

The suspects never told police they were re-enacting the game. But attorney John Beason, who is defending Davidson, said he also is intrigued by possible parallels. Although he isn't familiar with Grand Theft Auto, he said he plans to rent it to see for himself.

A spokeswoman for Take-Two Interactive Software Inc., the New York-based parent company of Rockstar North, which created the Grand Theft Auto series, refused to comment on the potential link to the death.

She also refused to comment about violence in the game. "We would like to extend our deepest sympathies to those affected by these tragic events," spokeswoman Dawn Berrie wrote in an e-mail response.

Other possible factors

Friends and relatives of the Wyoming suspects said if the game played a role in the attack, it was minor. Alcohol and other factors contributed, they contend.

Besides being drunk, Davidson, who was unemployed, was dealing with the break-up of his marriage and was unable to see his young child, friends said. As his marriage dissolved, he returned this summer to Wyoming after living with his family in Mount Pleasant.

Davidson told investigators he punched Steinberg and kicked him, police said in a court affidavit.

Toothman admitted kicking the man two to four times in the head, police said. The tiny, brown-haired 16-year-old from Wyoming has a history of assaults dating back to when she was 11.

Emery has refused to talk with police.

For part of the night, they were drinking beer and playing Grand Theft Auto III on the big-screen TV at a home on Eastern Avenue SE near 36th Street, according to James "Pudgy" Robinson, Davidson's childhood friend.

In the wee hours of the morning, Davidson, Emery and the women left, he said. Kiogima and Toothman were dropped off at Toothman's home nearby. Davidson and Emery then drove off.

About 3 a.m. Nov. 17, Davidson and Emery appeared on David Robinson's doorstep in a working-class Wyoming neighborhood of older homes. Robinson's son, Tyler, slept inside. The two-story home on Burt Street SE is just two blocks from where Steinberg was staying.

Though "stumbling drunk" and carrying a bottle of Budweiser, Davidson was allowed inside. Emery, however, was told to stay on the porch -- "I didn't know him," said David Robinson's wife, Tracy.

After the 10-minute visit, Davidson and Emery left in Davidson's car.

Police believe the two then started targeting pedestrians.

John Marzean, 22, said he was pushing his bicycle while walking a girl home shortly after 5 a.m. when he spotted the blue Honda Accord with a loud exhaust. It came at them in the parking lot of Wendy's restaurant.

The driver, Marzean said, had "an angry look on his face." They barely escaped.

Marzean owns one of the earlier versions of Grand Theft Auto and knows the game well. "It felt like the same exact thing," he said.

Steve Robinson, the brother of James and David, said the three suspects and Kiogima stopped by his house either Sunday or early Monday. He had heard nothing about the beating, and nobody talked about it, he said.

They played euchre and Grand Theft Auto III on his big-screen TV, he said.

"It's a game that everyone plays," Steve Robinson said. "Who doesn't play it?"

But, he said, everyone knows it's just fantasy.

"Real life is working 12 hours a day and paying my bills," he said. "There are (video) games where you can jump off buildings and not get hurt. Do you see kids doing that?"

About 3 a.m. Tuesday, Nov. 19, Wyoming Police Officer Shad McGinnis was working radar patrol on Eastern Avenue SE, south of 36th, when he spotted a blue Honda Accord with flip-up headlights and a loud exhaust.

He stopped the car, which matched the description of the vehicle in Sunday's attack. McGinnis should know -- he was the first officer on the scene of the beating two days earlier.

Tracy Robinson said she couldn't believe it when she saw Brian Davidson on the news, accused in the Sunday attack.

"I was speechless," she said. "That's not him. He's a sweetheart, very polite, very respectful."

But there is another side of Davidson, her husband said. He likes to fight, he said, and he's easily influenced.

"Brian is the kind of person, who, once he starts to fight, he's a knockout person. He hits hard, he kicks hard, he goes to the extreme," David Robinson said.

Tracy Robinson said the game should not be blamed for the death.

"It doesn't take a genius to figure out it's just a game," she said. "If you can't figure out what's real and what's not, don't play it."

At age 4, her son, Tyler, has become good at "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City."

He was playing it last week after preschool when his father took the controller to demonstrate the game.

The player is a gangster and earns money for his sinister acts. He can get ahead in the game by hiring a prostitute, then beating her to get his money back.

"You can choose guns, Uzis, swords, Molotov cocktails," David Robinson said. "Here, I'm going to blow up a boat. Watch it sink."

"It's sinking," his son pointed out.

David Robinson chose a sword as his weapon and slashed at a make-believe man. Blood squirted from his victim.

"Any car that comes by, I can steal it," he said. "There's a person, I just ran him over. I can just run down the sidewalk and run over anybody."

David Robinson said he believes the game isn't bad for his son. "This doesn't teach him anything," he said. "I teach him everything he knows."

"Daddy, you're dying," the boy pointed out as his father's character was shot repeatedly.

"He can play this game all day long, but he knows I've got shotguns and rifles in the closet," his father said. "He won't touch them. He knows they kill."

Macheath

I'm of two minds on this one.

I do see some sense in applying the same standards to games as are applied to movies. The problem is the art of game making is not as developed as the art of film making. To an extent violent films can choose to "self-police" by showing the harrowing consequeces of violence. There ARE films that do so. What I always liked about Reservoir Dogs, a film that many will only ever see as unredeemingly violent, was the depiction of Mr Orange's gunshot wound - the way he suffered was palpable. You could really feel his pain and empathise. For me, Tim Roth's performance as Mr Orange did not desensitize me to violence, he 'sensitized' me. Films can contain violence but still have merit - they are not always violent for the sake of being violent.

Film-makers have had a century to experiment with the depiction of violence. The art of film making is developed enough to weather legislation and regulation.

Game making is much younger. Game makers have only had a decade or two to experiment with how they depict violence and there have been many titles that were violent for the sake of violence. Even now though, games are maturing. Plots are improving. Makers are giving players the option of non-violence. Deus Ex can be played from start to finish without taking a single life. In Splinter Cell the taking of life can often result in mission failure. Despite these developments, the whole art is quite fragile. Each game is expensive to make and a draconian regulatory system could very well retard the development of new game plots and concepts. We could be left with a whole market of mollycoddling pap while fearful shareholders refuse to ever give "good" games the green light.

seretogis

Precisely. It is a parent's responsibility to get involved in their kid's life and be sure that they influence every decision that the child makes. Many retailers have taken it upon themselves to not sell Mature-rated games to minors, which is nice, but it is ultimately the parent's responsibility and the stores should not be held liable.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Lebell

We already restrict what children can see and hear. We add parental warnings to movies and music.

I don't have a problem with this.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Prophecy

I'm not saying I have problem with passing the law, but I do think that this won't make a difference in the long run.

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

ARTelevision

When there's a mountain in the way of making the world a better place, what is to be done is to work on the elimination of the mountain. Chipping off a stone is a positive, productive, and meaningful thing to do.

__________________
create evolution

Simple_Min

Superb!

I think entertainment industry is attacked because it is easier to go after them than it is to go after bigger role models...our War mongering president, corporate thieves who steal and not get punished, etc etc.

What are the kids learning from finding out the leaders of a company stole money and did not get punished because they were rich? Ofcourse, "because they were rich" is usually substituted with a blatant lie to mask the motive. I got news for you, the "popular culture" maybe a problem, but it is a short term problem. There are bigger problems in our "culture" that are ignored and given the VIP treatment. Why?

Is a video game bad influence or a board of directors whose greed drove a company and thousdands of families to the unempolyment lines?

And I agree with Art that to move a mountain you must start with a small pebble....but that small pebble is overshadowed by a giant boulder.

__________________
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

seretogis

I disagree. I've been accused of being a half-empty kind of guy, but I think that wasting time and effort chipping off a stone will only draw your attention away from the goal -- to topple the mountain entirely. Without any sort of plan to tackle the mountain completely, chipping off a stone is nothing but an attempt to look busy in time for the next election.

However, chipping off a stone as an incremental step to a larger plan would be something productive and meaningful. From what I've seen and heard so far, no such plan exists.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

ARTelevision

Well, I personally have no interest in effecting large scale social or cultural change. So you won't be seeing any large-scale plans from me, ever.

The only change I am interested in takes place one mind at a time.

I see your point. Do you see mine?

Perhaps we could work together. I will focus on the small-scale incremental steps and you can focus on the large-scale plans...

__________________
create evolution

seretogis

I can understand that, but I think that a large-scale social/cultural change is needed in order to truly solve the problem. No amount of school lunches or after-school basketball can make up for parents that place their duties as a parent above their own selfish wants. If two working parents cannot bring up their child successfully, they need to decide to make financial sacrifices so one of them can stay home.

Yes! Together we will take ov-- umm.. change the world.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

buffto

good lord, I played mortal kombat when i was 8 and i turned out just fine. I also played doom and any bloody fighting game that decided to capitalize on the trend. What we need is smarter children and parents, not a bunch of regulations to protect the dumb.

Phaenx

Ah cmon, ripping someones head off in mortal kombat is good for them.

Only kidding of course, I don't really know what kind of impact that has on a childs personality, I don't think it affected me. But either way, did anyone here whose young enough to catch the violent video game era every buy these games themselves? Or did mom but it for you, because you're a kid with no money? I don't think these kids are buying them anyways, and if they are what's to stop them to have someone else buy it for them?

I think it's a waste of time and effort, good try though.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy